2755 'the beat' of dancable music
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:06:41 -0500
From: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: 'the beat' of dancable music
When I read what Carlos wrote concerning people dancing open to 'undancable
music', it struck a true chord. ...which got me wondering why some music
seems relatively uninspiring for dance even though it may have a
recognizable beat. ...and why people will try tango in an open embrace to
almost any music.
This got a bit long - you can cut to the last paragraph and not miss much!
... back to 'dancability'... Lets try to use more descriptive language for
the kinds of music that people associate with a couple of styles.
Rodriguez and D'Arienzo and Biagi - the 'Milonguero core'... The good stuff
has a faster tempo, for one - though maybe not by much - and the phrasing is
distinct and more (shall we say?) symmetrical. This stuff is less dramatic
than some of the other music and maybe a little more predictable. More
consistent in it's energy.
Let's contrast that with, for example, the more 'fringe' Pugliese that some
folks adore. This music is certainly not 'undancable' but the energy is
totally different. The music is an intellectual treat. It is some of the
most dramatic stuff you can hear. To my (admittedly limited) knowledge,
Pugliese was the only one who had the b@lls to take a standard like 'Desde
Al Alma' and mess with the tempo the waltz. It's brilliant and dancers love
it. How does one interpret it on the floor? ...you need more than the
subtle, tricky corridas that are so sweet with Biagi waltzes! Whatever you
got with drama, THAT is what you pull out for the finale of Pugliese's
'Desde Al Alma'!
The experience of interpreting these two styles of music is obviously
distinct - in terms of subtlety, passion, energy, even intellect. ...almost
like the difference between appreciating baroque vs. romantic classical
music. But I would suggest that, notwithstanding our personal preferences,
these parameters do not justify labeling any of the music 'undanceable'. To
me, undanceable music is dull and unimaginative with the wrong tempo.
Considering currently accepted tango styles, the root of the question of a
music's 'danceability' MIGHT BE whether tango is really ONE dance! Perhaps
it is several related dances. ... each one with a distinct (if hard to
define) style, with related but distinct mechanics, and with an optimal
subset of music within the larger musical genre. [In terms of mechanics,
this question is highlighted by the recent (somewhat amusing) chatter
concerning - 'milonguero buns'! Obviously, followers' technique in
milonguero style has adapted to the embrace, why shouldn't leaders'
technique?]
I think tango is ONE dance. I think dancers don't understand the meaning of
a style until they have mastered it. The problem with so many relative
beginners dancing salon in an open frame is that they are still mastering
only one aspect of the dance - communicating from separate axes. They have
had no exposure to the important lessons within a close embrace - those of
communicating through a common axis and a sweet embrace. The challenges of
the open frame only serve to delay exposure to the insights of the close
embrace! Neither have these dedicated open-framers appreciated the more
subtle energy and rhythms that are the beauty of 'milonguero-type' music.
Faced with all this musical and dance diversity there is one common
essential element regardless of a dancer's tastes - your heart has to be
open. You have to let the music touch you, whatever it is. So, in response
to Carlos' original observation, I suspect that the complex dance
machinations of open-salon beginners tends to *interfere with* their
appreciation of the music. Ultimately, it delays their exposure to another
fundamental aspect of tango dance - a single-axis close embrace.
What are your thoughts on this?
Gotta scoot - best to all,
Frank - Mpls.
Frank Williams
writing from BSBE,
612-625-6441
frankw@umn.edu
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:28:21 +0000
From: herve michel <herve_michel1@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: 'the beat' of dancable music
I think that regardless of the styles what is important ids a good teacher.
Some people are naturals and one can see an evolving style but without
proper guidance from a strong teacher they may enhance certain traits that
may not highly the gracefulness of what they are trying to accomplish.
So foundational works can come at any time for those who have a certain
'rhythm' a strong teacher can act as a guide into another level that both
leader and follower did not expect.
Herve
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>From: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
>Reply-To: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] 'the beat' of dancable music
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>When I read what Carlos wrote concerning people dancing open to 'undancable
>music', it struck a true chord. ...which got me wondering why some music
>seems relatively uninspiring for dance even though it may have a
>recognizable beat. ...and why people will try tango in an open embrace to
>almost any music.
>
>This got a bit long - you can cut to the last paragraph and not miss much!
>
>... back to 'dancability'... Lets try to use more descriptive language for
>the kinds of music that people associate with a couple of styles.
>
>Rodriguez and D'Arienzo and Biagi - the 'Milonguero core'... The good
>stuff
>has a faster tempo, for one - though maybe not by much - and the phrasing
>is
>distinct and more (shall we say?) symmetrical. This stuff is less dramatic
>than some of the other music and maybe a little more predictable. More
>consistent in it's energy.
>
>Let's contrast that with, for example, the more 'fringe' Pugliese that some
>folks adore. This music is certainly not 'undancable' but the energy is
>totally different. The music is an intellectual treat. It is some of the
>most dramatic stuff you can hear. To my (admittedly limited) knowledge,
>Pugliese was the only one who had the b@lls to take a standard like 'Desde
>Al Alma' and mess with the tempo the waltz. It's brilliant and dancers
>love
>it. How does one interpret it on the floor? ...you need more than the
>subtle, tricky corridas that are so sweet with Biagi waltzes! Whatever you
>got with drama, THAT is what you pull out for the finale of Pugliese's
>'Desde Al Alma'!
>
>The experience of interpreting these two styles of music is obviously
>distinct - in terms of subtlety, passion, energy, even intellect.
>...almost
>like the difference between appreciating baroque vs. romantic classical
>music. But I would suggest that, notwithstanding our personal preferences,
>these parameters do not justify labeling any of the music 'undanceable'.
>To
>me, undanceable music is dull and unimaginative with the wrong tempo.
>
>Considering currently accepted tango styles, the root of the question of a
>music's 'danceability' MIGHT BE whether tango is really ONE dance! Perhaps
>it is several related dances. ... each one with a distinct (if hard to
>define) style, with related but distinct mechanics, and with an optimal
>subset of music within the larger musical genre. [In terms of mechanics,
>this question is highlighted by the recent (somewhat amusing) chatter
>concerning - 'milonguero buns'! Obviously, followers' technique in
>milonguero style has adapted to the embrace, why shouldn't leaders'
>technique?]
>
>I think tango is ONE dance. I think dancers don't understand the meaning
>of
>a style until they have mastered it. The problem with so many relative
>beginners dancing salon in an open frame is that they are still mastering
>only one aspect of the dance - communicating from separate axes. They have
>had no exposure to the important lessons within a close embrace - those of
>communicating through a common axis and a sweet embrace. The challenges of
>the open frame only serve to delay exposure to the insights of the close
>embrace! Neither have these dedicated open-framers appreciated the more
>subtle energy and rhythms that are the beauty of 'milonguero-type' music.
>
>Faced with all this musical and dance diversity there is one common
>essential element regardless of a dancer's tastes - your heart has to be
>open. You have to let the music touch you, whatever it is. So, in
>response
>to Carlos' original observation, I suspect that the complex dance
>machinations of open-salon beginners tends to *interfere with* their
>appreciation of the music. Ultimately, it delays their exposure to another
>fundamental aspect of tango dance - a single-axis close embrace.
>
>What are your thoughts on this?
>
>Gotta scoot - best to all,
>
>Frank - Mpls.
>
>Frank Williams
>
>writing from BSBE,
>612-625-6441
>frankw@umn.edu
>
>
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:57:56 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: 'the beat' of dancable music
Following one line of Frank's thinking, let's look at two different tandas
of vals music:
Tanda One: All Biagi -- Amor y Vals, Paloma, Por Un Beso de Amor, Lagrimas y Sonrisas
Tanda Two: Orquesta Color Tango -- Ilusion de Mi Vida, Hector Varela -- Palomita
Blanca, Lalo Schifrin Orquesta -- Corazon de Oro, Osvaldo Pugliese --
Desde el Alma
Both tandas contain devastatingly wonderful vals music. All is eminently
suitable for dancing, but the mood of the music is considerably different.
The embrace need not be different, nor am I likely to decide to dance one
style to Biagi and another to the more contemporary vals in the second
tanda. If interpretation comes from the heart and our connections with
our partner, the music and the other dancers around we are bound to dance
a little differently to these different tandas. Nonetheless, I think our
interpretations of the music will depend to some extent on the style of
dancing we gravitate toward.
Beginners and even intermediate dancers who are caught up in dancing
complex memorized figures are unlikely to offer anything that resembles a
relationship to the music. The execution of these complex figures can
severely interfere with the ability to focus on anything else. Beginners
who are dancing relatively simple elements are much more likely to connect
to the differences in the music. As Tom Stermitz has previously observed,
some people leave their first tango lesson and their next 20 less able to
connect and move to the music than they did when they first walked in the
door/
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:58:02 -0700
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: 'the beat' of dancable music
I think of the regular beat in music as the "clock" in a modern
computer motherboard.
The crystal clock on a mobo synchronizes the disparate
components so they can work together, despite their substantial
differences in form and function. I believe the regular beat in
strict-tempo music can perform the same function between two
strangers at a milonga.
If I postulate 4 types of following:
0) Heavy, stagnant following. The leader has to give a nudge, if
not an outright PUSH, to get the follower to move in any
direction whatsoever. Best to get in close-embrace, walk, and do
little else.
1) Passive, mechanical following. The woman doesn't need to be
pushed or nudged; she is well-supported on her own axis. The man
has to indicate every single element, every beat, every step,
place her exactly, she shows zero initiative or understanding of
the music and little or no understanding of space.
2) Basic musical awareness. The woman is on her own balance, and
now dances with the music. She is aware of the beat, steps with
the beat, given a hint of a lead, will fit her steps within the
structure of the music. Uses space appropriately, and sometimes
creatively. Fits her adornments with the music and space
available. The beat is now synchronizing her steps and the man's
steps. Not every beat gets a step, but every step is on a
beat/half-beat etc.
3) Full participation in the dance. Grasps the musical ideas,
and expresses them. A cocreator in the dance with her partner.
Contributes her understanding of the music throughout. The
synchronization now takes place at a higher level--not just with
the beat, but with more abstract structures in the music.
Significant musical ideas in the songs are now being perceived
by the two dancers at the same moments, even if not the same
way. Intensity is mutually appreciated. Emotional nuances in the
music now begin to be synchronously perceived by both partners,
and danced.
I submit that 0 & 1 are possible with all types of music. 2 & 3,
between strangers, with unfamiliar music, is only possible with
strict-tempo, (usually traditional) music.
If you define "dancing" in terms of significant or full
participation of the woman in the dance (2 & 3), you can make a
case for the statement about what kind of music is danceable
music.
If you define "dancing" as at least 0 & 1 then yes, of course,
all music is danceable music, and the distinction between
danceable and nondanceable music is nonsensical.
--- Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU> wrote:
> I read what Carlos wrote concerning people dancing open
> to 'undancable
> music', it struck a true chord. ...which got me wondering why
> some music
> seems relatively uninspiring for dance even though it may have
> a
> recognizable beat. ...and why people will try tango in an
> open embrace to
> almost any music.
>
...
>
> ... back to 'dancability'... Lets try to use more descriptive
> language for
> the kinds of music that people associate with a couple of
> styles.
>
...
> But I would suggest that, notwithstanding our personal
> preferences,
> these parameters do not justify labeling any of the music
> 'undanceable'. To
> me, undanceable music is dull and unimaginative with the wrong
> tempo.
Unispiring music. Boring music. Sleepy music. "Droopy" music.
"Flat" music.
The terms implictly suggest a subjective element of judgment, a
preference, a "de gustibus" issue. Just to differentiate from
"undanceable" music.
...
> Faced with all this musical and dance diversity there is one
> common
> essential element regardless of a dancer's tastes - your heart
> has to be
> open. You have to let the music touch you, whatever it is.
> So, in response
> to Carlos' original observation,
I, too, have seen what Carlos referred to, more open-embrace
dancers whirling away in utter disregard of the music, and more
close-embrace dancers dancing in much closer synchrony with the
music. I've seen it in 6 or 7 venues in different cities on the
east and west coast. That is not to say every close-embrace
dancer is on the mark, or every open-embrace dancer is clueless.
I dance both open-embrace and close-embrace. Different forms for
different music, different partners, and different
circumstances.
> I suspect that the complex dance
> machinations of open-salon beginners tends to *interfere with*
> their appreciation of the music.
Yes.
ramiro
=====
ramiro garcia
ramiro9@yahoo.com
---
In their feud [Stalin and Trotsky] both were right. Stalin was right in
maintaining that his regime was the embodiment of socialist principles.
Trotsky was right in asserting that Stalin's regime had made Russia a hell.
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:35:06 +0000
From: herve michel <herve_michel1@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: 'the beat' of dancable music
2 and 3 are ideal, but let's ad another level of complexity. What if one of
the partners is blindfolded.
After a while you start to feel things as a partners pushes and nudges in
the begining, but things change and somethimes in unexpected ways.
I guess one should always adjust to changes but th epartner should always
keep a close embrace or come in to re orient the dancer.
Herve
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:08:23 -0700
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: 'the beat' of dancable music
Reminds me of a "show" at Timmy Tango's Snow Ball in
Cleveland, Ohio, where Daniel Lapadula and Katrina
Zeno BOTH danced blindfolded, without rehearsal. It
was a very closely connected and well done dance,
combination of open and closed salon styles.
--- herve michel <herve_michel1@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 2 and 3 are ideal, but let's ad another level of
> complexity. What if one of
> the partners is blindfolded.
>
_______________________________
