1571 bordoneo y 900
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:32:10 -0700
From: "Linda~" <tangaux02@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: bordoneo y 900
Hi everyone,
I was wondering if anyone knew the story behind
"Bordoneo y 900", e.g. how the name came about, who
originally wrote it, etc. I've heard Pugliese's
version, and while I really like it, I am curious how
close is it to the original? What is a good recording
of it and where can I find it?
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Abrazos,
--l
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:03:58 +0200
From: andy Ungureanu <andy.ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: bordoneo y 900
Linda~ wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew the story behind
> "Bordoneo y 900", e.g. how the name came about, who
> originally wrote it, etc.
written by Osvaldo Ruggiero (23 Sept 1922 - 31 May 1994) first bandoneon
of Puglieses Orquesta, later member of "Sexteto Tango"
I have no idea what the meaning is. Altavista translation is "humming",
bordon is the stick of a pilgrim, bordonear is "begging around". Edurado
Arrolas wrote a tango "El rey de los Bordoneos". Maybe some native
speaker could help.
I've heard Pugliese's
> version, and while I really like it, I am curious how
> close is it to the original? What is a good recording
> of it and where can I find it?
Most known is the recording of Juan Jose Mossalini. Also by Color Tango
and Sexteto Canyengue. I think what you heard is the original, because
Ruggiero was working with Pugliese at the time he wrote it.
Andy
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:05:56 -0300
From: Rubén Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: bordoneo y 900
Bordoneo is to play games with the low guitar string (Country Milonga
music)
'900 in this context is the "City Milonga music"
Ruben "Milonga" Terbalca
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] bordoneo y 900
> Linda~ wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone knew the story behind
> > "Bordoneo y 900", e.g. how the name came about, who
> > originally wrote it, etc.
> written by Osvaldo Ruggiero (23 Sept 1922 - 31 May 1994) first bandoneon
> of Puglieses Orquesta, later member of "Sexteto Tango"
> I have no idea what the meaning is. Altavista translation is "humming",
> bordon is the stick of a pilgrim, bordonear is "begging around". Edurado
> Arrolas wrote a tango "El rey de los Bordoneos". Maybe some native
> speaker could help.
>
> I've heard Pugliese's
> > version, and while I really like it, I am curious how
> > close is it to the original? What is a good recording
> > of it and where can I find it?
> Most known is the recording of Juan Jose Mossalini. Also by Color Tango
> and Sexteto Canyengue. I think what you heard is the original, because
> Ruggiero was working with Pugliese at the time he wrote it.
>
> Andy
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:29:33 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: bordoneo y 900
Rubin Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR> wrote:
>Bordoneo is to play games with the low guitar string (Country Milonga
>music)
>'900 in this context is the "City Milonga music"
>
>Ruben "Milonga" Terbalca
>
Hola Ruben,
Thanks for the post, but more detail will be appreciated.
How does 900 represent the City milonga music? Was that an AM radio frequency where they broadcast the music? Or does it represent the street numbering?
Tanguero Chino
Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial today!
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:48:46 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Bordoneo y 900
Ruben Terbalca wrote about "Milonga city music" related to the "900" reference of the title of this tango.
The thing that sounds out of place is the "y" that links Bordoneo with 900 , since when talking about the music and/or the beginning of the XX century , the word most commonly used was "del/from" , like the title of another theme "Milonga del 900" .
Tanguero chino asked if it could be a radiowave belonging to a radio broadcast of Argentina, but it does not seem to fit . The radios transmit wether in Khz (AM) or Mhz (FM) .
The radios that are closer to 900 are Radio Nacional 870 Khz , Radio Belgrano 950 Khz and Splendid . 990 Khz.
FM Radios were not known when Ruggiero composed "Bordoneo y 900" .
Another reference could be the soundwave that each chord of the guitar has , but also, there is not a precise match with "900"
Chord - Note - Wave
1era = Mi = 1318.5 Hz
2da = Si = 987.77 Hz
3era = Sol = 783.99 Hz
4ta = Re = 587.33 Hz
5ta = La = 440 Hz
6ta = Mi = 329.63 Hz
The only precise wave is for the 5th chord, 440 Hz, that is the standard the music forks for tuning the guitar produce : A440.
"Bordona" is the name that the 6th chord has , the Mi low sound. The 1st chord is named "prima" , and is the Mi high sound , there is 1/8 between them.
One of the most popular argentine books " Martin Fierro" , has a reference to this chords , since Martin Fierro tells his story , and begun saying he is a not a literate guitar singer, but that when he sings , he makes "to mourn" the "prima" and "to cry" the bordona.
There is an outstanding Tango "La bordona" made by Emilio Balcarce, that starts with bordonas chords being played by a line of violins, a special and melancholic sound .
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Usuario: yahoo; contraseqa: yahoo
Desde Buenos Aires: 4004-1010
Mas ciudades: clic aqum.
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:26:56 +0200
From: Joaquin Concha <j.concha@WEBMAIL.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: bordoneo y 900
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:29:33 -0400 Tanguero Chino
(tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET) wrote:
>
>How does 900 represent the City milonga music? Was that an AM radio
frequency where they broadcast the music? Or does it represent the
street numbering?
"look into www.tangocity.com
if not there ask info for help , they'll help you"
LOOK GOOD, FEEL GOOD - WWW.HEALTHIEST.CO.ZA
Cool Connection, Cool Price, Internet Access for R59 monthly @ WebMail
https://www.webmail.co.za/dialup/
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:50:22 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Bordoneo y 900
Greetings,
I'm not sure of the reference to 900, but "Bordoneo" is probably referring to
the predominance of left hand bass notes played by the tango pianists or it's
overall sound and quality. There are numerous tangos that poeticize the
different sounds of the various instruments. Early in tango music there were no
pianos in the groups, only guitarists. The steady rhythmic sound that was popular
in the early tangos and is played on the lower or bass strings of the guitar
is called the "bordona." When the piano began to replace the guitar in the
groups and many of the guitarists had to switch over and learn the piano
(basically in order to survive as a musician) they essentially transposed the guitar
technique they were accustomed to of playing the lower or bass strings for
rhythm (which you can hear in Gardel recordings with guitar accompaniment for ex.)
to the left hand of the piano which plays the bass notes. This recreated a
similar sound (sometimes referred to as a "mano pesada" - heavy left hand) as t
he guitar and created a style which continues to be the dominant style for the
piano as opposed to using the treble keys, in effect imitating the staccato
strumming guitar sound on the piano. It even has a name - "estilo bordonero."
Next time you listen to Pugliese, listen to the strong steady left hand beat and
you will hear much of the same rhythmic sound that you hear on early Gardel
recordings with guitar, for example his version of Duelo Criollo. In fact you
still hear this sound in the playing of guitarists like Pancho Navarro here in
NYC.
Another different but significant change happened when the flute was replaced
by the bandoneon. The music changed from light hearted and upbeat to solemn
and melancholy bacause the bandoneon had a lower range. When you hear retro
groups like Tubatango, the music has a totally different character with the flute.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:34:54 -0300
From: Rubén Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Bordoneo y 900
Alberto,
es por la alternancia netre milonga campera y ciudadana. En esa milonga se
alternan las 2 formas
Por eso es "Y", y no "del".
No es Bordoneo "del" 900 porque el bordoneo es el precedente campero y el
"900" es la evolucion urbana.-
Se trata de 2 formas alternadas en dicha pieza.
Ruben
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 3:48 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Bordoneo y 900
> Ruben Terbalca wrote about "Milonga city music" related to the "900"
reference of the title of this tango.
>
> The thing that sounds out of place is the "y" that links Bordoneo with
900 , since when talking about the music and/or the beginning of the XX
century , the word most commonly used was "del/from" , like the title of
another theme "Milonga del 900" .
>
> Tanguero chino asked if it could be a radiowave belonging to a radio
broadcast of Argentina, but it does not seem to fit . The radios transmit
wether in Khz (AM) or Mhz (FM) .
>
> The radios that are closer to 900 are Radio Nacional 870 Khz , Radio
Belgrano 950 Khz and Splendid . 990 Khz.
>
> FM Radios were not known when Ruggiero composed "Bordoneo y 900" .
>
> Another reference could be the soundwave that each chord of the guitar has
, but also, there is not a precise match with "900"
>
> Chord - Note - Wave
>
>
> 1era = Mi = 1318.5 Hz
>
> 2da = Si = 987.77 Hz
>
> 3era = Sol = 783.99 Hz
>
> 4ta = Re = 587.33 Hz
>
> 5ta = La = 440 Hz
>
> 6ta = Mi = 329.63 Hz
>
> The only precise wave is for the 5th chord, 440 Hz, that is the standard
the music forks for tuning the guitar produce : A440.
>
> "Bordona" is the name that the 6th chord has , the Mi low sound. The 1st
chord is named "prima" , and is the Mi high sound , there is 1/8 between
them.
>
>
>
> One of the most popular argentine books " Martin Fierro" , has a reference
to this chords , since Martin Fierro tells his story , and begun saying he
is a not a literate guitar singer, but that when he sings , he makes "to
mourn" the "prima" and "to cry" the bordona.
>
>
>
> There is an outstanding Tango "La bordona" made by Emilio Balcarce, that
starts with bordonas chords being played by a line of violins, a special and
melancholic sound .
>
>
>
> Warm regards
>
> Alberto Gesualdi
>
> Buenos Aires
>
>
>
>
>
> Usuario: yahoo; contraseqa: yahoo
> Desde Buenos Aires: 4004-1010
> Mas ciudades: clic aqum.
>
>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:23:08 +0200
From: andy Ungureanu <andy.ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Bordoneo y 900
Ruben wrote:
> Bordoneo is to play games with the low guitar string (Country Milonga
> music)
> '900 in this context is the "City Milonga music"
Alberto Gesualdi wrote:
> The thing that sounds out of place is the "y" that links Bordoneo
with 900 ....,
For me Rubens explanation is now clear. The title is " country (Old)
milonga and City (new) Milonga". The 900 means the 20th century as a whole.
The song beginns with the slow part, the country, similar to "Los ejes
de mi careta". After 60 sec. there is a new fast theme, the "city" for
60 sec., then the themes are repeated each for 30 sec.
Thanks to the contributors!
Andy
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:24:58 -0300
From: Rubén Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: bordoneo y 900
Hola Tanguero Chino,
900 was street (city) milonga music, "y" ("AND") bordoneo is the way from
country milonga.
In this piece you can see the alternating between the 2 different music
structures.-
Ruben
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] bordoneo y 900
> Rubin Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR> wrote:
>
> >Bordoneo is to play games with the low guitar string (Country Milonga
> >music)
> >'900 in this context is the "City Milonga music"
> >
> >Ruben "Milonga" Terbalca
> >
>
> Hola Ruben,
>
> Thanks for the post, but more detail will be appreciated.
>
> How does 900 represent the City milonga music? Was that an AM radio
frequency where they broadcast the music? Or does it represent the street
numbering?
>
> Tanguero Chino
>
> Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial
today!
>
>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:37:16 -0300
From: Rubén Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Bordoneo y 900
El ańo 900 es la simbolica fundacion del tango-milonga orillero.- Y la
supuesta diferenciacion de la mezcla campera previa.-
Esto se aclara cuando se conoce la "milonga" previa al nacimiento del
tango._
Siempre se menciona "el tango del 900" como el tango antiguo, "Y" el
bordoneo como acompańamiento de la milonga campera (ver payadores por
ejemplo).
Por eso es BORDONEO "Y" 900, alternancia de 2 formas musicales (prestar
atencion a los cambios de fraseo --muy marcados).-
Y no es "bordoneo "del" 900"
Ruben
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Bordoneo y 900
> Lo que no se entiende es de donde viene 900. Porque 900.
> Quw es 900.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rubén Carlos Terbalca" <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 3:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Bordoneo y 900
>
>
> > Alberto,
> > es por la alternancia netre milonga campera y ciudadana. En esa milonga
se
> > alternan las 2 formas
> > Por eso es "Y", y no "del".
> > No es Bordoneo "del" 900 porque el bordoneo es el precedente campero y
el
> > "900" es la evolucion urbana.-
> > Se trata de 2 formas alternadas en dicha pieza.
> > Ruben
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alberto Gesualdi" <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
> > To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 3:48 PM
> > Subject: [TANGO-L] Bordoneo y 900
> >
> >
> > > Ruben Terbalca wrote about "Milonga city music" related to the "900"
> > reference of the title of this tango.
> > >
> > > The thing that sounds out of place is the "y" that links Bordoneo
with
> > 900 , since when talking about the music and/or the beginning of the XX
> > century , the word most commonly used was "del/from" , like the title of
> > another theme "Milonga del 900" .
> > >
> > > Tanguero chino asked if it could be a radiowave belonging to a radio
> > broadcast of Argentina, but it does not seem to fit . The radios
transmit
> > wether in Khz (AM) or Mhz (FM) .
> > >
> > > The radios that are closer to 900 are Radio Nacional 870 Khz , Radio
> > Belgrano 950 Khz and Splendid . 990 Khz.
> > >
> > > FM Radios were not known when Ruggiero composed "Bordoneo y 900" .
> > >
> > > Another reference could be the soundwave that each chord of the guitar
> has
> > , but also, there is not a precise match with "900"
> > >
> > > Chord - Note - Wave
> > >
> > >
> > > 1era = Mi = 1318.5 Hz
> > >
> > > 2da = Si = 987.77 Hz
> > >
> > > 3era = Sol = 783.99 Hz
> > >
> > > 4ta = Re = 587.33 Hz
> > >
> > > 5ta = La = 440 Hz
> > >
> > > 6ta = Mi = 329.63 Hz
> > >
> > > The only precise wave is for the 5th chord, 440 Hz, that is the
standard
> > the music forks for tuning the guitar produce : A440.
> > >
> > > "Bordona" is the name that the 6th chord has , the Mi low sound. The
1st
> > chord is named "prima" , and is the Mi high sound , there is 1/8 between
> > them.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > One of the most popular argentine books " Martin Fierro" , has a
> reference
> > to this chords , since Martin Fierro tells his story , and begun saying
he
> > is a not a literate guitar singer, but that when he sings , he makes "to
> > mourn" the "prima" and "to cry" the bordona.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is an outstanding Tango "La bordona" made by Emilio Balcarce,
that
> > starts with bordonas chords being played by a line of violins, a special
> and
> > melancholic sound .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Warm regards
> > >
> > > Alberto Gesualdi
> > >
> > > Buenos Aires
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Usuario: yahoo; contraseqa: yahoo
> > > Desde Buenos Aires: 4004-1010
> > > Mas ciudades: clic aqum.
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:01:25 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: bordoneo y 900
The explanation given by Andy looks as the correct answer. The music played in Bordoneo y 900 , alternates the rythm of the milonga campera and milonga ciudadana/porteqa , as it was the Milonga Sentimental written by Sebastian Piana & Homero Manzi in 1932. I found this interview at todo tango , the last interview maded to Maestro Piana short before he died. In this fragment he explains differences of milonga campera and milonga porteqa
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Interview made on June 16, 1994.
Published in Desmemoria Re-vista de Historia, no. 5, Buenos Aires, October-December 1994.
- Do you share the opinion, held by the Bates brothers, that tango (in its development as musical genre) takes elements from candombe, the habanera and the milonga?
- Certainly. The habanera was almost the mother of tango. The milonga, on the other hand, belonged to country music, what today is known as folklore. Later the milonga arrived in town, but it was not yet that milonga of which I was the forerunner: it was a rural milonga, sung by gauchos, by that country people that, sometimes, improvised....
- Was it the milonga that Gardel and Razzano sang?
- It was a country milonga, that the Gardel-Razzano duo sang as well. The Argentine and Uruguayan payadores (itinerant singers) that had the ability to improvise lyrics: they were naturally born-poets that, among them, they ad lib rivaled to the beat of a milonga. It would not be strange that the habanera, a Spanish air well-known in Cuba, blended with black music and took advantage of the candombe small drum. Later this spread all over America. All this produces the musical origin of tango in Argentina. But tango is a Spanish word. The tanguillo is a Spanish dance.
- Originally the milonga was a music for strings, was percussion added in Cuba?
- I guess so. The Negroes, that have a great intuition and a rhythmic sense, made "their" habanera. This seems to have spread throughout America. That would be the origin of the early tango beat.
- Can we talk of a " Piana's Revolution " as far as milonga is concerned?
- It is, simply, the change from a milonga -which was regarded as belonging to the south and the Pampas, without dance or danced in privacy, and dug by gauchos and payadores-, to the milonga porteqa, owed to Maffia and to me. They were melodically quite alike.
The renewal, the porteqa and suburban milonga, is owed to a request made by Rosita Quiroga to Homero Manzi. We had given to her a tango that she would sing. However, she asked for a milonga.
Astonished, Manzi told me; "Rosita asked me a milonga".
I answered him: but if all milongas are nearly the same thing, very much alike, because of that people improvise on them....
"Look, Sebastian, I don't understand anything about milongas", Manzi answered to me.
Then I told Homero that he should call me in two days, to see if I was able to devise something. During that time I had in my head the idea of a new milonga. I knew its beat because I had written a previous one so that Josi Gonzalez Castillo (Catulo Castillo's father) would write lyrics to it.
I had the need to make different milongas; and these were: they kept the simplicity of the beat, but with a defined musical shape, as if they were tangos to be sung, but without losing the milonga's essence.
When Manzi called me, precisely in two days' time, I already have composed "Milonga Sentimental", whose music only took me half an hour (the one I had prepared for Gonzalez Castillo's milonga had taken me a whole day). It was not the everlasting milonga, the one improvised by the payadores...
As Manzi, a magnificent poet, confessed to me that he did not understand about milongas, I thought for myself: will he undestand mine? He understood it. He arrived to my place on a Monday, he picked up the sheet music and, the next morning, he had the lyric already written. With the lyrics added I began to like the music more. Until then I was more satisfied with the one I had made for Gonzalez Castillo.
So "Milonga Sentimental" was born. It was my second milonga, which turned out to be the first milonga porteqa known.
- Catulo's father, finally did he add lyrics to your first milonga?
- No, no. It seems he forgot about it (laughs). He was a great friend of mine and of my father's.
Usuario: yahoo; contraseqa: yahoo
Desde Buenos Aires: 4004-1010
Mas ciudades: clic aqum.
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:01:26 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Bordoneo y 900
The following is result of my private exchange with Mr. Trebalca.
"El aqo 900 es la simbolica fundacion del tango-milonga orillero.- Y la
supuesta diferenciacion de la mezcla campera previa.-
Esto se aclara cuando se conoce la "milonga" previa al nacimiento del
tango._
Siempre se menciona "el tango del 900" como el tango antiguo, "Y" el
bordoneo como acompaqamiento de la milonga campera (ver payadores por
ejemplo).
Por eso es BORDONEO "Y" 900, alternancia de 2 formas musicales (prestar
atencion a los cambios de fraseo --muy marcados).-
Y no es "bordoneo "del" 900"
Ruben"
Translation :
The 1900 is conventionally taken as the year when the
tango-milonga-orillero was born. (A reference to the music created in the
periphery of Buenos Aires). This supposed a differentiation from the
previous music from the country side.
This is obvious when you are familiar with the "milonga" that existed prior
to the time when tango was born.
Tango del 900 (tango from 1900) is the usual reference to the ancient tango,
"Y" (and) the bordoneo is a reference to the country milonga.
(Please see Payadores, as example).
We find in 'Bordoneo y 900' two different musical forms alternating ( please
notice the changes of musical phrasing, which are very intense).
It is not "Bordoneo del 900".
Ruben
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:33:37 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Bordoneo y 900
Dear friends from the tango list
I would like to translate the comment just received from Mr. Oscar Himschoot, the owner of Clud de Tango, a fantastic place to buy Cd4s and Tango lyrics. Mr. Himschoot has many years conducting a program on radio about lunfardo language also.
warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Dear Mr. Gesualdi:
I was just to write you to comment exactly the same that you have been informed ( Note: the posting of Ruben Terbalca about milonga campera y milonga ciudadana).
Exactly . The theme was composed with the intention to show the change from milonga campera to ciudadana, this is clearly perceived at the aceleration at the second part of the theme,
There is another attempt to show this two styles, in "Cardo y Malvsn" , a composition of Osvaldo Pugliese from 1963 that he made with that same intention , therefore the reference to cardo ( the outland) and malvsn ( the city).
I also agree with you on the appreciation of La Bordona from Emilio Balcarce , I consider this theme as good as Responso from Troilo.
See you
p.Club de Tango
Oscar Himschoot
Usuario: yahoo; contraseqa: yahoo
Desde Buenos Aires: 4004-1010
Mas ciudades: clic aqum.
