278 Centering the Follower?
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:40:20 EDT
From: Clifton Chow <TangoPassionMoon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Centering the Follower?
My fellow Tangueros,
I would like to address this note to all instructors and to followers, especially followers who have been studying lead and can understand some of the difficulty of leaders who are trying to move freely. I remember someone once saying it is very important for a follower to centre herself so that her weight is not too heavy in her upper body. I currently dance with many followers who still have difficulty centering themselves. They are putting too much stress in their upper body. Some have difficulty being led, giving up control. Others could dance all night doing front ochos without being led to do so because that is what they think embellishment means. I think what separates an intermediate follower from an advanced follower is embedded in this statement by Astrid:
"I am told that good followers achieve a kind of Zen state where their minds go blank and they just respond much like martial arts masters."
Short of all the discussion involving what leaders can do to pay attention to the connection, how can we help followers practise centering themselves even before the dance has begun so that they can achieve that lovely Zen state? Is there an exercise, a state of mind, something? The chief frustration I feel is that every time a follower puts all that stress in her upper body, even doing simple ochos, I can't move freely and improvise. I've tried telling her to balance on the balls of her feet, to close her eyes, to stop anticipating. We are also dancing on very nice floors, so you can eliminate bad surfaces.
Please help.
Clifton de Boston
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:55:50 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
Clifton wrote:
I think what separates an intermediate follower from an advanced follower
is embedded in this statement by Astrid:
>
> "I am told that good followers achieve a kind of Zen state where their
minds go blank and they just respond much like martial arts masters."
This was not my statement, more like Robert Hink (?) describing something
that I also wrote about to the list months ago.
>
, how can we help followers practise centering themselves even before the
dance has begun so that they can achieve that lovely Zen state? Is there an
exercise, a state of mind, something? > Please help.
>
Beats me, Clifton. Practise, practise, practise. Rome wasn't built in a day,
and Satori is not reached in a crash course on Zazen either usually.
Neither is balance.
Gavito says, lessons are too expensive for polishing your boleos, you have
to do it at home.
And Oscar Mandagaran gives me homework after every privada, and homework
until he comes back from Argentina next time. I found that practising back
ochos with planeos unfortunately takes up the entire free space in my living
room, but I also found that practising that without a wall makes any
shortcomings in balance very obvious. Gavito said, practising ochos against
a wall only teaches women bad habits. Ballerinas don't use a bar to LEAN on
it either.
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:00:42 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
Clifton de Boston wrote:
>>[H]ow can we help followers practise centering themselves even before the
dance has begun so that they can achieve that lovely Zen state? Is there
an exercise, a state of mind, something? The chief frustration I feel is
that every time a follower puts all that stress in her upper body, even
doing simple ochos,...<<
Confidence in oneself and one's partner combined with an expectation that
one's dancing skills will not be analyzed go a long way toward helping the
follower's centering themselves. Centering is also a physical skill. From
a physical perspective, a follower can go off balance and throw weight on
the leader for a number of reasons--one of the most prominent being led off
balance by the leader.
A follower can learn to better maintain her balance and axis by keeping her
sternal notch upright her shoulders over her hips and her hips over her
feet. She should keep her weight on the balls of her feet, not forward on
her toes, and she should not lean with her shoulders to complete the
embrace, rather she should close the gap with the center of her body--which
between the solar plexus and belly button. If the man is substantially
taller than the woman, she should not strain her body position by reaching
too high with left arm. On ochos and turns, the follower must take care
not to step away from or toward the leader. The back step in a turn
requires particular attention.
>>I've tried telling her to balance on the balls of her feet, to close her
eyes, to stop anticipating.<<
Comments to the follower from the leader seem to destroy the Zen like state
in which the follower is centered. As I said in my posting "Offering
Comments" of 10/21, offering advice, comments or pointers about dancing are
rarely welcome--even if they are designed to help one's dance partner up
the learning curve. Most often, it seems like the only options are silence
and avoiding partners whose shortcomings on the dance floor are intolerable
or speaking up and having the listeners avoid the speakers.
This leaves us with having to determine how the leader's technique affects
the follower's balance. The leader should also maintain his balance by
keeping his sternal notch upright, his shoulders over his hips and his hips
feet. If the man is taller than the woman he should not bend down to meet
her; he should just lower his arms to accomodate her embrace. He should
also move from the center of his body--initiating his body movement to lead
her steps rather than leading with his foot movements. For ochos, turns,
and steps that require contrabody movements, the leader should also take
care rotate his upper body (without dipping his shoulders) to sufficiently
to maintain his shoulders relatively parallel with hers. He should also
give the follower enough time to complete her steps and avoid leading with
his hands. A leader who rotates his shoulder insufficiently, doesn't give
his partner enough time to complete her steps, and leads with the hands to
compensate will frequently find his partners off balance on ochos and
turns.
With best regards from Texas,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:44:13 -0700
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
Clifton Chow asked (paraphrased):
What can leaders do to help women get in a "kind of Zen state." How could
he help women center themselves, i.e. keep their weight on the balls of
their feet and not in the upper body?
To me, the answer is put the woman at ease. When a woman tells me she's a
beginner, I can feel a tight frame. To put her at ease, I tell her that
dancing tango is not a competition between the partners. Either we both
look good or terrible. It's never a question of one looking good at the
other's expense. Some women say they are terrible, as if they are trying
to convince themselves they can't dance. I just tell them "I'll be the
judge of that." If I can get the woman to laugh, her frame relaxes, her
shoulders open, and we dance well because she no longer feels that she
has to meet an impossible standard she has set for herself.
This might sound strange, but all a woman has to know to dance tango is
walking, crossing, and ochos. A sensitive leader should recognize the
woman's skill level and not go way beyond it. As the woman gains
confidence in dancing, she will relax, enabling the couple to dance more
intricate figures.
But the answer isn't only what can the woman do. The other part is what
can the leader do to put himself at ease. I've been taking yoga for three
ways with great results. The therapist has been able to wring a lot of my
stress out, like water out of a sponge. My private tango teacher reminds
me of the importance of frame. Not only do I communicate the lead to the
woman through my frame, I also communicate any tension through my frame,
hence my need for yoga.
My usual remark to a woman who apologizes for following poorly is "When I
lead better, you'll dance better."
Michael
Not as stressed as he used to be in Washington, DC
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:39:30 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
> > This was not my statement, more like Robert Hink (?) describing
something
> > that I also wrote about to the list months ago.
>
> The Zen like mental state where I have no thoughts in my head at allI am
no longer
> worried about what I am creating, if it is good enough, where it is
> going, etc... It feels like there is a direct path from feeling to
> sound and the experience is very immediate. When the music is over I
> feel like I am waking up from a dream. I think this is what the old
milongueros in
> Buenos Aires are after when they go out dancing. I think this feeling is
the magic we
> are all after. The milongueros all talk about it, often in very poetic
> terms.
Thanks, Robert, you said it better than I think I ever did on the list.
footnote:
from a wall hanging in a meditation room
"My cat sits in Zazen every day. But not as seriously as I."
What that has to do with practising tango, you figure out for yourself.
; )
Astrid
>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:44:50 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
Michael B Ditkoff writes:
> Clifton Chow asked (paraphrased):
> > What can leaders do to help women get in a "kind of Zen state."
>
> To me, the answer is put the woman at ease. When a woman tells me she's a
> beginner, I can feel a tight frame. To put her at ease, I tell her that
> dancing tango is not a competition between the partners.
>
> [most of text deleted]
>
> My usual remark to a woman who apologizes for following poorly is "When I
> lead better, you'll dance better."
That's all fine and dandy, Michael, but handling the situation of
dancing with a woman who is a bit insecure and apologetic about her
dancing is not very difficult.
Now, if you've got something to suggest about handling the much more
challenging situation of dancing with a woman who thinks she knows it all
and has the attitude to prove it, why, that might be a bit more useful.
Huck
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:38:44 GMT
From: Michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
---------- Huck Kennedy wrote:
That's all fine and dandy, Michael, but .. dancing with a woman who is a bit insecure and apologetic about her dancing is not very difficult.
Now, if you've got something to suggest about handling the much more challenging situation of dancing with a woman who thinks she knows it all
and has the attitude to prove it, why, that might be a bit more useful.
Huck
You seem to have an attitude yourself, Huck. Clifton's original message dealt with beginners and I answered HIS question. Your question is what to do with a woman who has an attitude.
I can help with a woman's insecurity. I can't help with her arrogant attitude. I don't dance with her. If enough men don't ask her to dance, maybe the message will get through.
And vice versa. If enough women don't accept an invitation from a man who thinks he's G-d's gift to tango, maybe he'll get a message.
Michael
Looking forward to a week of Halloween milongas
in Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:22:12 -0400
From: Patricia Thompson <AlaskaTango@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Centering the follower?
Dancing Friends~
Clifton of Boston commented "Short of all the discussion involving what leaders can do to pay attention to the connection, how can we help followers pratice centering themselves even before the dance has begun so that they can achieve that lovely Zen state?"
I have just come off the Tangofest here in Portland Oregon. I am a woman that dances both lead and follow. One of the 'gems' that I have found this workshop weekend is that, not only is it important that the follow be centered and allowed to start there, it is just as important that the lead not 'mess with' or compromise the center of the follow.
As a lead I find that when I ask the follow to move, my movements must be done with a great awareness and sensitivity to the follows center. Allowing the follow to start the dance on center and stay there opens the door to that lovely Zen state were connection, musicality and improvisation seems to fall into place.
Wishing everyone many magical dances~
Patricia~
Anchorage, Alaska
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:54:52 EDT
From: Clifton Chow <TangoPassionMoon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
Hola Tangueros (y Tangueras),
I have two more interesting observations about the problem of centering the
follower. This occured as I was dancing at our Practica on Wednesday. I
realised that this problem mostly afflicts newer dancers. Because I
typically am so preoccupied with making sure that newcomers to the Tango feel
welcomed and therefore, have not danced very much in the past year with
intermediate and advanced followers, I think my observations come from
dancing with near beginners.
First, I realised that some of them dance Tango like the salsa or disco,
moving and swaying their upper bodies to a rhythm they hear in the Tango.
This movement makes it difficult for them to follow a lead because their
upper body gyrations break the connection and often causes them to lose
balance as they move backwards continously. Has anyone else felt this from
some followers? I tried to stop this unnecessary movement by holding them
close and pausing often. They seemed to perceive this as my attempt to be
romantic, and then once I let go and we move on the floor again, their
gyrations continue. Besides telling them outright to stop it, does anyone
have any other suggestions?
Second, many new followers, as may be expected, do not know Tango music very
well. Their movements, even simple step backwards, vary in length and speed.
They seem to be so worried about knowing my lead that they can't seem to
relax and just let the music guide their rhythm. I suppose I can try to
solve this by ensuring I am not leading any inappropriate figure or by
keeping the dance simple. Any other suggestions?
Thank you all for helping to keep this issue alive.
Clifton de Boston
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:35:15 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
>First, I realised that some of them dance Tango like the salsa or disco,
>moving and swaying their upper bodies to a rhythm they hear in the Tango.
>This movement makes it difficult for them to follow a lead because their
>upper body gyrations break the connection and often causes them to lose
>balance as they move backwards continously. ...
>Second, many new followers, as may be expected, do not know Tango music very
>well. Their movements, even simple step backwards, vary in length and speed.
> They seem to be so worried about knowing my lead that they can't seem to
>relax and just let the music guide their rhythm. I suppose I can try to
>solve this by ensuring I am not leading any inappropriate figure or by
>keeping the dance simple. Any other suggestions?
You're talking about an experienced leader helping out a newcomer
one-on-one, not a teacher presenting a "welcome to tango" class for a
roomful of beginners.
First, I would say that you need to remove the more technically
challenging movements. If you do ochos or the turn on the first day,
then the typical beginner will immediately lose control of her axis
and hips and her steps, especially when her next partner is some guy
who starts leading her in things she doesn't know.
There are two key elements I find most helpful for new followers:
(1) Learning let your footsteps be the leader's drum
(2) Learning to be intuitive in the lead-follow and engage with the leader
(1) The followers footsteps are like a drum the leader is playing.
If you can get her to change weight fully ("put your axis cleanly and
clearly over your foot AT the beat.") while connecting to you with
good lead-follow, then you can quickly show her the rhythm.
Tango musicality is built first on the Beat & Rhythm (walking beat
and half-time), then on the phrasing & lyrical-flow, pauses, and
finally on syncopations (like the Long-Long-Short that occasionally
sits on top of the 1 + 2 + ...see Troilo and Calo).
Of these elements, you should expect a new follower to learn pretty
easily the Walking Beat and the Double-time. The latter gives you a
chance to try to remove some salsa hips, if they sometimes have that
background. (In the opposite case, you might have to ask them to be a
little more expressive with their body...hips ARE important in tango).
(2) Tango requires an intense amount of connection/engaging with your
partner, which must be an intuitive, not an intellectual skill.
I truly hate on-line instructions (and I never learn much from a
video either), but the most valuable exercise I know of for
connecting intuitively is one I don't see being used very often. I
realized its importance watching Cacho Dante.
It is the very simple "Together Step" with follower's hands on your chest:
- forward, together, together, together, (then forward again).
You need to show her on the straight walking time of Di Sarli, the
square 2/4 beats of a milonga or on the quick-quick-quick of
D'Arienzo or Tanturi. But the important thing is not to do it in a
pattern so she doesn't memorize her steps and disconnect from you.
Why it is so special is that it illustrates clearly the moments you
connect to your partner ask her:
(1) to step forward, and
(2) to step in place.
These moments of connection are what separates tango so dramatically
from other dances (say Foxtrot). It is what makes tango music TANGO:
the dramatic moment of engaging with your partner just before
stepping.
Those two suggestions remove a lot of the technique,
intellectualizing, and patterning that get in the way of follower's
learning. They give you the opportunity to give your follower a
clean, underlying basis.
Later on (20 minutes?) you can show the cross, simple ocho cortados,
and that is enough material for her to really feel the fun of tango,
especially if the guy has decent musicality.
The absolute worst thing you can do for a follower is to show her the 8CB.
One MIGHT be able to argue (I would strongly disagree) that the 8CB
has some value for getting guys to coordinate their movements with a
partner, but teaching a woman a pattern programs her in exactly the
WRONG way to learn tango. It sets her back weeks if not months in her
learning.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:21:38 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
>Second, many new followers, as may be expected, do not know Tango music
very
>well. Their movements, even simple step backwards, vary in length and
speed.
>They seem to be so worried about knowing my lead that they can't seem to
>relax and just let the music guide their rhythm. I suppose I can try to
>solve this by ensuring I am not leading any inappropriate figure or by
>keeping the dance simple. Any other suggestions?
The selection of music in working with beginners is often overlooked, and
people often dance to whatever is available or playing, particularly at
practicas. The selection of music can help beginners develop a connection
to music that is unfamiliar. Some recommend starting with Di Sarli, but
the slow, dense music is often a little challenging for beginners. I
recommend starting out with early Canaro and Calo before moving onto Di
Sarli. In the early stages, the objective is learning to hear and move to
the beat of music that is unfamiliar to many listeners. Later dancers
learn to move more impressionistically.
My recommendations for Canaro are:
La Melodia de Nuestro Adios
El Pescante
Pampa
Viejo Tiempo, Mala Suerte and Poema are also great if you can find them.
My recommendations for Calo are:
Yo Soy El Tango
Saludos
Sans Souci
La Maleva
Lejos de Buenos Aires
Next Di Sarli is fine, particularly for Salon-style tango. Here the
challenge is connecting with a slower, denser rhythm. Some good choices
are:
Milonguero Viejo
El Cabure
Organito de la Tarde
A La Gran Muneca
Next, D'Arienzo, early Troilo, and Tanturi would be great. Here the
challenge is connecting with a faster tempo and a harder-edged rhythm.
Some good choices for D'Arienzo are:
Retintin
Don Esteban
El Irrestible
Union Civica
Penaslo Bien
El Flete
Some good choices for Troilo are:
Cachirulo
Milongueando en el 40
Gaupeando
Cordon de Oro
For Troilo with Fiorentino:
Toda Mi Vida
Te Aconsejo Que Me Olvides
Taberno
El Bulin de Calle Ayachucho
Tinta Roja
Some good choices for Tanturi are:
Ese Sos Vos
Recuerdo Malevo
Cuatro Compases
La Vida Es Corta
Asi Se Baila el Tango
El Tango Es el Tango
Next DeAngelis and Pugliese. Here the challenge is to connect with music
where the beat is less constant.
De Angelis provides a transition from the smooth music of Di Sarli to the
dramatic music of Pugliese. Some good choices for De Angelis include:
El Tango Club
El Pial
Guardia Vieja
Pavadita
For Pugliese, the cuts on De Caro por Pugliese provide a bit of an
introduction, although they do not really have the thumping sound that
people associate with Pugliese.
From De Caro por Pugliese the following some good choices include:
Tierra Querida
Mala Junta
Orgullo Criollo
Boedo
Tiny
For the thumping "La Yumba" sound:
La Yumba
Chique
Gallo Ciego
Derecho Viejo
Next moving on to tangos that feature vocalists in a lyrical style, such as
Calo with Beron, Di Sarli with Rufino or Troilo with Fiorentino. Here the
challenge is learning to depart from beat and dance in a more
impressionistic manner.
For Calo/Beron some good choices are:
Al Compas del Corazon
Trasnochando
Que Te Importe Que Llore
Tristezas de le Calle Corrientes
Lejos de Buenos Aires
Tarareando
For DiSarli/Rufino some good choices are:
Verdemar
Charlemos
Patotero
Cascabelito
Canta, Pajarito
For Troilo/Fiorentino some good choices are:
Malena
Pajaro Ciego
En Esta Tarde Gris
El Cuarteador
Sencillo y Compadre
From there it is on to Biagi and later Pugliese....
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com
A noncommerical online resource with information about Argentine tango
including reviews of instructional videos, guides to tango music, articles
about learning and dancing tango, extensive links and a listing of tango
events in Dallas, Texas.
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:26:13 +0100
From: CLIMENTI Dominique <cli@UBP.CH>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
Hello Listers!
I'm a man who is used to dance as leader or follower. One thing i feel
when i dance as follower is that for each step I have to wait to
understand what the leader want me to make, and then I have to make that
move.
If, in this second part, I'm activ and I make the step by myself
according to the leading I've feeled when waiting i can keep my own
balance, but if I try to make the step to quick, at some moment, I will
misunderstand the leading and make someting "wrong" that can comprimise
my own balance but the thing who is the most interesting is: if I'm
passiv and i wait the leader to move my body i will loose my balance
very quickly. So i have to wait as much as possible before moving but
when I've understood what the leader want I'have to make the move by
myself... I dance, I'm not expercting the leader make me dance, so when
I move I'm activ... In this approche i nearly never loose my own
balance. That's one think i try to make feel to my students... Wait and
relax to prepare and understand the movement, and then move and dance by
yourself, express yourself, you'r dancing, it's not the leader who is
making you to dance...
Nice tangos to all of you.
Dominique from Geneva.
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:58:07 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
I know, it is a kind of a tightrope walk between not being too active and
"dancing by yourself" and having the leader lead you completely, but to get
into that Zen feeling it is still the best way to have the leader move you,
I think. Not move you like a sack of potatoes, mind you, a follower who has
good enough balance and a strong feel for her own axis, can have the leader
move her body and still be light enough. I think, to have the leader move,
then have the follower move while the leader waits, somehow sounds to me
more like the European/ American answer to what the Argentines do. At least
as far as lot of the steps in close embrace dancing is concerned.
I would like to have others share their experiences with that phenomenon,
though.
.. Wait and
relax to prepare and understand the movement, and then move and dance by
yourself, express yourself, you'r dancing, it's not the leader who is
making you to dance...
Dominique from Geneva.
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 06:55:07 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
--- Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> wrote:
> >Their movements, even simple step backwards,
> vary in length and speed.
>
>
> (1) The followers footsteps are like a drum the
> leader is playing.
>
> If you can get her to change weight fully ("put your
> axis cleanly and
> clearly over your foot AT the beat.") while
> connecting to you with
> good lead-follow, then you can quickly show her the
> rhythm.
So, as a newish follower, I'd like to know: what is
the best thing to do when the leader cannot put his
_own_ feet down on the beat? I periodically dance
with a couple of leaders who are unable to find the
beat (and I do dance with other, no more experienced,
leaders who have beautiful rhythm, so I don't think
it's just me). If I am dancing with a leader who
steps randomly within the music, should I try to find
the rhythm and move on it, hoping to lead him back to
it, or should I try to follow his lead, setting my
feet down as soon as I can after the lead?
Marisa
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:49:47 -0500
From: "Sa, Na-W, Na-C, Na-E, Misc" <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
Astrid and Clifton asked about leading and the Zen state.
The man should have a strong frame to indicate to the woman don't dance
tango like salsa. I keep my right hand in the small of her back, not at
the shoulder blade as in ballroom. Also I lead with my body so the woman
moves first and I'm only a split second behind her. This ensures I match
the size of her step, not the other way around.
As for dancing in the Zen state, it reminds me of hypnosis. The hypnotist
can only hypnotize somebody who is suggestive and willing. Only Dracula
could force his will onto somebody else. (Halloween is Wednesday. Anybody
dressing up as the Count?) Anyway, for this state to occur, there must be
TRUST between the partners. It's not a one way street. Good technique is
very important but is insufficent to reach Zen if there isn't trust.
What do I mean by trust? The man feels the woman is comfortable with his
lead and DOESN'T feel the need to impress her with complicated figures.
The woman feels the man is comfortable with his leading and wants to
execute every figure correctly. Bonus points are given to the man who
will let the woman play at an opportune moment.
When is an opportune moment? My favorite is the stepover. I've stopped,
waiting for her to step, loosening my right hand on her back, and wait
for her to decide the decorations she wants.
I hope this answers the question!
Michael
Waiting for Halloween in Washington, DC
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:55:56 -0800
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
Hey list,
I am posting this again, something went wrong the first time around. It
is way out of the sequence by now but it might be interesting for some
of you anyway. This is one of those topics that keeps coming up.
astrid wrote:
>
> Clifton wrote:
> I think what separates an intermediate follower from an advanced follower
> is embedded in this statement by Astrid:
> >
> > "I am told that good followers achieve a kind of Zen state where their
> minds go blank and they just respond much like martial arts masters."
>
> This was not my statement, more like Robert Hink (?) describing something
> that I also wrote about to the list months ago.
I did say something like this a few months ago so I thought I
would try and clarify what this might mean.
The Zen like mental state I described is something I first encountered
playing improvised music. There is a point, when the musicians are
really connecting, where I have no thoughts in my head at all, and the
music seems to flow out of me directly from my emotions. I am no longer
worried about what I am creating, if it is good enough, where it is
going, etc... It feels like there is a direct path from feeling to
sound and the experience is very immediate. When the music is over I
feel like I am waking up from a dream. I have played music for a few
years for a group of dancers who do contact improv, and I always find
that when I have found this place in the music, the dancers have found
this place dancing. We connect across the space of the room, and we
interract. The musicians respond to the dancers, and the dancers
respond to the musicians. It is an intimate, immediate communication
without words.
Imagine my surprise when I discovered that this could happen on the
dance floor dancing tango. In this case I have to help my partner relax
and really dance her to the music so she can let go. I dance smoothly,
and without complicated steps, to get her into a groove. With some
women I will dance a repetative sequence so that they know where I might
be going so they quit worrying about the steps. When I feel my partner
relax I begine to vary the sequence, and I don't know how I decide
really, it just happens when we begine moving together well. If things
stay smooth and we don't get bumped we just go deeper into this
connected state, and the dance can go anywhere. Often I end up doing
'steps' I have never done before, and that I can't remember after the
dance is over. I am no longer thinking in words at all. There is only
the music, my partner, the movement, and the other dancers around me (I
still have to navigate and not interfere with their dance).
The wonderful thing is that my partner doesn't have to be an experienced
dancer for this to happen. I have felt this while dancing very simple
steps with a relative beginner. It isn't a technique as such. If I can
make a comfortable space for my partner, and give her confidence that
she can do all the steps I am going to do, and I will dance with very
simple steps if it is necessary, then she has the possibility. A
beginner who listens to the music can do this even before she knows much
about the dance. The main thing to know is that for me to get into this
wordless 'Zen' mental state I have to first get my partner there.
There is no way to force this. My answer to Clifton's original question
is that there is nothing he can suggest to his partner to make it easier
for her, no technique to perfect. The leader first has to make the
dance comfortable and safe for the follower. The follower has to feel
that she/he will move where the leader moves. When the follower can
feel confident with the movement, then it is possible to forget to think
about where to step. Then it is possible to let go. When we give our
partners suggestions on the dance floor we close the door to this place
entirely. They will try to do what we suggest, and will be seeking
aproval, or maybe they will just think we are idiots for suggesting
something that, to them, sounds rediculous, or they will be hurt and no
longer able to trust. The only thing I have found that I can say to
really help is something encouraging. Something that gives a bit of
confidence.
Having said that the follower has to know something as well. If the
follower is trying to do the steps consciously, or worse trying to do
'embellishments' learned in a class, or anything that keeps the
intellect engaged, the door is closed. If the follower is thinking
about the dance then the dance will be a conscious, intellectual
activity. In this case it could be a technically perfect dance and yet
there is no possibility for the Zen state. I walk away from these
dances hungry, feeling empty. This is most unsatisfying when it happens
with a partner who has a lot of experience, and should be amazing to
dance with.
When I go dancing the Zen experience is what I am after. It is nice to
be able to dance well, and look nice on the dance floor, but if it
stopped there I probably wouldn't be so crazy about tango. The Zen
experience is really what I am after. This is the feeling I wouldn't
want to live without. I think this is what the old milongueros in
Buenos Aires are after when they go out dancing. Why else would a 75
year old man want to go out dancing every day until 5:00 AM? It can't
just be about looking good on the dance floor. For a 75 year old man it
can't just be about chasing women. I think this feeling is the magic we
are all after. The milongueros all talk about it, often in very poetic
terms.
Many happy dances,
Robert
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:41:17 -0500
From: Patricia Thompson <AlaskaTango@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
Dancing Friends~
I could not help but agree with much of what Robert Hauk posted in his last e-mail on 'Centering the Follower?'. I would like to add this:
The 'Zen' state can certainly be a lovely place to be, but, as a dancer it is not something I have a right to, nor should I expect it with every partner.
This statement may help get my point across:
I recently discovered that all the love I will ever need is already in my heart and that any love that others choose to send my way is an amazing and wonderful bonus.
I feel it is unrealistic to need to be full after every dance :o) Some partners are able to share with me a tasty little nibble, some interesting appitizers and yet still others incredible main courses.
May I add that I feel that this can change over time, for the tango journey is to me a growing experience. Dance partners can be revisited as we journey along and we might be fortunate enough to have a little 'tango heaven' sent our way the next time around, when the first time we had only a little taste.
Wishing many wonderful dances and journeys to you all~
Patricia~
In a beautiful, snowy Anchorage Alaska.
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:13:44 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <melinda.bates@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Centering the Follower?
Hello List,
I have been following this thread since Marisa first raised it last week,
but I don't think anyone has commented on her central question:
----- Original Message -----
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
...I'd like to know: what is
> the best thing to do when the leader cannot put his
> _own_ feet down on the beat....If I am dancing with a leader who
> steps randomly within the music, should I try to find
> the rhythm and move on it, hoping to lead him back to
> it, or should I try to follow his lead, setting my
> feet down as soon as I can after the lead?
This is an important question for followers. Every time I have asked it of
a man, the response is emphatically that the woman should dance to the
rhythm set by the leader. But it's such an uncomfortable experience, even
for those few minutes, that I find this dictum very difficult to follow (so
to speak). Also, it seems to me that dancing to a beat one does NOT hear or
feel can put the woman in danger of stepping "wrong" and getting hurt. I
know this is true in swing and salsa, where being turned on the wrong beat
can easily get you injured. What should we do in tango?
I hope other followers will comment on this.
happy tangos to all,
Melinda
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:59:54 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
the response is emphatically that the woman should dance to the
> rhythm set by the leader. But it's such an uncomfortable experience, even
> for those few minutes, that I find this dictum very difficult to follow
(so
> to speak). Also, it seems to me that dancing to a beat one does NOT hear
or
> feel can put the woman in danger of stepping "wrong" and getting hurt. I
> know this is true in swing and salsa, where being turned on the wrong beat
> can easily get you injured. What should we do in tango?
My teacher said, that if the man cannot hear the music, and leads whatever
he feels right without paying attention to the music, then the woman who is
trying to follow HIM, cannot really hear the music anymore either. And it is
like the music and all their movements do not really matter anymore.
I find trying to follow a leader of this kind extremely confusing, and kind
of depressing, since I DO like listening to the music and interpreting it.
I have not gotten injured this way yet, but I guess, in this confused,
orientationless state it can easily happen.
One thing I do have noticed is that if the leader has poor posture and
ballance, and tends to lean on me at times, it gets painful for my feet in
heels, and sometimes my back too, and makes the rest of the evening
difficult to go on dancing..
>
> I hope other followers will comment on this.
>
> happy tangos to all,
> Melinda
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:34:56 -0800
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
If the lead is making it clear which rhythm he is using, and he is asks
for her steps in an unambiguous punctual manner, then the woman should
have no problem doing what he asks for.
I for one enjoy when I can feel that the woman really feels the rhythm
and I'm not just forcing her onto the beat. I like to feel that she
is reacting to the music as well as my lead. If the woman has really
good rhythm, she will even accent the way she does ganchos or boleos.
Again, the lead can always force these moves to be on time, but it's
really nice when you give her the opportunity and she really hits the
note perfectly. This feels awesome, and it makes the dance feel more
like a diologue than just having her do only the things that I lead.
If the lead asks her for a syncopation, or slows down the time and uses
multiple beats for a step, then of course the follow should pay attention
to how he is using the music. She can always make things easier for
him by listening to the music herself, and reacting to his lead within
the rhythms and structures set by the music.
If a guy has lousy rhythm, the follow shouldn't be forced to plod along
with him and whatever bizarre things he's trying to do. It like if he
leads something enough that she knows what he wants, but it is still
incredibly uncomfortable, she shouldn't have to endanger her own health.
If he's rushing her along, I feel that the follow has the right to take
her time and step on the beat. If it's clear that he's asking for a
syncopation, she should follow, but if it's just clumsy tazmanian devilness,
then she should be able to use her discretion and stay with the music.
Who knows, she might actually give him a feel for the music.
--
Clayton Beach
akumushi@onebox.com
---- Melinda Bates <melinda.bates@VERIZON.NET> wrote:
> Hello List,
>
> I have been following this thread since Marisa first raised it last
> week,
> but I don't think anyone has commented on her central question:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 9:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
>
>
> ...I'd like to know: what is
> > the best thing to do when the leader cannot put his
> > _own_ feet down on the beat....If I am dancing with a leader who
> > steps randomly within the music, should I try to find
> > the rhythm and move on it, hoping to lead him back to
> > it, or should I try to follow his lead, setting my
> > feet down as soon as I can after the lead?
>
> This is an important question for followers. Every time I have asked
> it of
> a man, the response is emphatically that the woman should dance to
> the
> rhythm set by the leader. But it's such an uncomfortable experience,
> even
> for those few minutes, that I find this dictum very difficult to follow
> (so
> to speak). Also, it seems to me that dancing to a beat one does NOT
> hear or
> feel can put the woman in danger of stepping "wrong" and getting hurt.
> I
> know this is true in swing and salsa, where being turned on the wrong
> beat
> can easily get you injured. What should we do in tango?
>
> I hope other followers will comment on this.
>
> happy tangos to all,
> Melinda
>
> to
>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:12:20 -0800
From: Ed Heede <cynthiab7@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Centering the Follower?
> the response is emphatically that the woman should dance to the
>> rhythm set by the leader. But it's such an uncomfortable experience, even
>> for those few minutes, that I find this dictum very difficult to follow
> (so
>> to speak). Also, it seems to me that dancing to a beat one does NOT hear
> or
>> feel can put the woman in danger of stepping "wrong" and getting hurt.
I agree,
I have danced for years with both leads who dance on the beat ( I enjoy
dancing with those leads best) and leads who interpret the music however
they choose, right or wrong.
I have read differences of opinion on this subject and find that the best
experience I have had is to simply let the man lead and just plain follow
whatever he leads.
My opinion is that as a follower we follow as best we can, and let the lead
do just that, lead. At times I have fallen into listening to the music and
stepping on the beat when I was not led to do so. I got carried away with
the music and initiated the movement to the beat and always this throws off
the dance if the man is not dancing on the beat, because I am back leading
and no longer following. We all know what kind of disaster that can be. At
those times I stop dancing on the beat if the lead is not doing so and go
back to allowing him to lead me, whether he is on the beat or not. I may not
enjoy each individual experience but I've learned to simply follow and it
turns out to be a better experience all around than trying to back lead or
take the initiative and throw off the dance by leading the man.
Again, having said that, I certainly enjoy best dancing on the beat as
should be.
Thanks to all on the list,
Cyn
