1076 Cinema Tango
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 08:42:57 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Cinema Tango
Greetings,
Although it is premature to judge Duvall's new film, even if it was panned by
the Toronto critics, it brings up a classic dilemma of introducing one art
form into another. How to portray them together without either being
subservient to the other or detracting from it?
-If you can afford it, you can just be self-indulgent and just make a movie
about yourself like Sally Potter, and the critics be damned.
-Or you can make it into an overblown spectacle that was essentially also
another self-indulgent exercise from an aging director who didn't seem to
understand the culture or music.
(Perhaps these are a new category in cinema - "auto-biographical mid-life
crisis films)."
Since I never paid much attention to film critics and still don't, I will
reserve judgment. I have found several beautiful films that were originally
panned. But I do know that Duvall has made intelligent interesting films and
really does know tango and is concerned about portraying it faithfully. It
will be interesting to see how the two merge. But I can accept a flimsy plot
in exchange for realistic and authentic tango background easier than another
tricky and even artful film with staged, group, fantasy choreography. At
least there will exist a good document that will bear scrutiny over the years
for the dancing. I have a hard time imagining Carlos Saura's "Tango" holding
up as either a good film or a good tango document (with the exception of at
least having Copes on film).
Celluloid tangos to all,
Charles Roques
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 00:54:24 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
Charles wrote:
. I have a hard time imagining Carlos Saura's "Tango" holding
> up as either a good film or a good tango document (with the exception of
at
> least having Copes on film).
>
All the tangueras and tangueros I know who have seen Saura's "Tango", say
the same thing: the dancing is good, but the story leaves a lot to be
desired. That is exactly what I thought, until I saw Saura's older
movie,"Carmen".
The key to understanding that weird story of "Tango" is: it is a remake of
"Carmen" ! Exactly the same story (veteran flamenco primadonna (Christina
Hoyos) does not get the main part in a performance because, even though she
is a wonderful dancer, she is old for the part, and the director wants a
young pretty one. So he checks a lot of women at an audition, likes none,
because they all lack that special something, goes out to the flamenco
schools, and finally finds one, who is a young, and, though not a fully
matured dancer ("only three months stage experience"), pretty and
headstrong, just the kind of personality he is looking for. She even looks
similar to the girl in "Tango". Sure enough, the director, and main dancer
( Antonio Gades himself), soon falls in love with her. Turns out, she
already has a lover, and you can imagine the rest. True to the story of
"Carmen".
Now, a few years later, the director Saura goes to Argentina and apparently
attempts a rerun of "Carmen", using Tango instead of Flamenco. Only here,
the story does not really work at all, it just seems a little weird and
forced, and nobody I know, really understands why this is supposed to
represent the tango world.
Moreover, the main character is not the aging, but still beautiful dancer
Antonio Gades, but this, IMO, unattractive, plain guy from "L'exilo de
Gardel", years later, now playing a gloomy character with a limp and a
traumatic past. Some people say, this is just like Argentina really is.
Well, I dunno...
Still waiting for someone like Sally Potter to do another one,
self-indulgent maybe, but I don't care. At least it looks much more like
what I experienced in the tango world so far.
Astrid
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 17:40:27 +0100
From: Chris Luethen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
On 2 Mar 2003 at 0:54, astrid wrote:
> All the tangueras and tangueros I know who have seen Saura's "Tango",
> say the same thing: the dancing is good, but the story leaves a lot to
> be desired. That is exactly what I thought, until I saw Saura's older
> movie,"Carmen". The key to understanding that weird story of "Tango"
> is: it is a remake of "Carmen" !
that's it:
some nice dancing, great colours and nice camerawork ... but story-
wise ... nothing at all.
all saura films are more or less the same: 'carmen', 'flamenco',
'tango'. not that I did not like 'tango', but for the story it's
definitely 'not a must see'.
that would be the advantage of a digital video copy on the PC: just
cut out the nice dancing scenes ... and have a video-beamer in your
living room. [I don't but sponsoring would be accepted. :-) ]
Happy dancin' everybody!
Christian
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 11:54:19 -0700
From: Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Cinema Tango
I was just perusing my copy of Korzybski's Science and sanity; an introduction
to non-Aristotelian systems this morning (just kidding Jonathan), when I took
a short break to check the tango L list and noticed a comment that the movie
Tango is good because it contains Copes' dancing. I'm probably poking a wasp
nest with a stick when I write this, but I don't think Copes' dancing in the
movie is very good. He may be a legend or an icon, but I've seen people in
milongas who are his age, and who dance better.
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:23:20 -0500
From: Varvara Kountouzi <varvarak@POBOX.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
I've seen 'Tango' a million times and yet I can't remember the scene in
which Copes is dancing (could it be a Monday morning blackout?)
Could someone remind me of the scene please?
Thanks, B.
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:56:29 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
> I've seen 'Tango' a million times and yet I can't remember the scene in
> which Copes is dancing (could it be a Monday morning blackout?)
>
If you don't know what Copes looks like...
Copes is the choreographer of the whole show they are putting on, and is
leading the dancers in their rehearsals, , wearing a white T-shirt, shouting
"Un-dos-tres...". and also there is that scene near the beginning (inside
the "Confiteria Ideal", I have been told today, apparently) where he
arrives, all the guests cheer him on, he chooses a young lady to dance with
(45 years younger than him ?), she gives him a huge flattered smile, they do
their thing on the dance floor, people applaud,then he sits down and
discusses business with the bigwigs of the milonga, Mafiosi or whatever they
are. Rings a bell ?
Did you notice Oscar Mandagaran dancing inside the group of dancers ? Or
Carlos Rivarola being the main star dancer, even though they hardly show his
face, for some reason? (Took me a while to figure out who this was, even
though I knew what he looks like)
We have a lady in Tokyo, Kazumi Kawabara (one of Rivarola's hosts), who
claims as her main career credential, that she can be seen for a few seconds
far away from the camera inside that group of dancers. I have to discover
her yet,even though someone once pointed her out to me. Anybody noticed a
(short haired?)Japanese in there ?
Astrid
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:25:42 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango & Copes
>> I've seen 'Tango' a million times and yet I can't remember the scene in
>> which Copes is dancing (could it be a Monday morning blackout?)
>>
>If you don't know what Copes looks like...
>Copes is the choreographer of the whole show they are putting on, and is
>leading the dancers in their rehearsals, , wearing a white T-shirt,
shouting
>"Un-dos-tres...". and also there is that scene near the beginning (inside
>the "Confiteria Ideal", I have been told today, apparently) where he
>arrives, all the guests cheer him on, he chooses a young lady to dance with
>(45 years younger than him ?), she gives him a huge flattered smile, they
do
>their thing on the dance floor,
<<<
wait,wait - wasn't he also in a scene in costume as an immigrant, dancing a
saucy little "dockside milonga" with the younger female lead? Could have
sworn that was him...
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:12:54 -0800
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
, he chooses a
> young lady to dance with
> (45 years younger than him ?), she gives him a huge
> flattered smile, they do
> their thing on the dance floor, people applaud,then
> he sits down and
That would be his daughter, Johanna, with whom he is
partnered for workshops and the like. Not his 'niece'.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:36:59 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
I have seen his daughter in person. This lady did not look like her at all.
Maybe someone could check the credits ?
> --- astrid wrote:
> , he chooses a
> > young lady to dance with
> > (45 years younger than him ?),
nancy wrote:
> That would be his daughter, Johanna, with whom he is
> partnered for workshops and the like. Not his 'niece'.
>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:34:19 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] Cinema Tango
Oops, look, who's in my mail box.... Ok, this once, without taking
responsibility for the content, here's Antonio Cervila Junior's response to
what I wrote:
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Cinema Tango
> I am Junior, the assasin in Saura's "Tango".
> After the movie I started to study filmmaking and I have a gret story to
> film. I am in New York and if you know any sponsor for this project,
please
> contact me.
> I have also a gret show that arrive from a sucessfull tour in Japan with
> TAngo, Salsa, Flamenco and Samba.
> If you can send this e-mail for the list, I apreciate.
> Thanks
> again
> Junior
>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:10:06 -0500
From: Gülden Özen
<ozeng@NEURO.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
Astrid,
I haven't seen Johana Copes in person but the lady in the movie Tango is
exactly the same lady on Copes training videos with Johana. Also, here's
what I see on TangoFantasy website (https://www.tangofantasy.com) :
----------------
In spite of her youth, 21 years, Johana's great professional training based
on her studies of classical dancing, jazz, musical comedy and theater,
allowed her to approach the Tango-Dance with teachers such as Juan Carlos
Copes and Pepito Avellaneda and became one of the great argentine dancers
of this genre.
Among her appearances in theater seasons, we con mention great moments,
such as her participation in "Tango Magic and Seduction", "Gotan", "Between
Borges and Piazzola" and "The Feeling of Tango", among others, while USA,
Italy, Spain, France and South America applauded her in "Invite to de
Dance", "Tango Argentina Review", "Fiesta Tango" and the praised "Tango
Argentino".
Television and movie theaters showed her in documentaries video clips and
in Carlos Saura's film "Tango" nominated to an Oscar.
To Johanna Copes dancer, we can add the Johanna Copes choreographer, who in
a very short time will show the truth of the saying "like father, like son".
---------------------
So, I guess it is clear that Copes is dancing with his daughter in Tango :-)
Gulden
At 11:36 AM 3/4/2003 +0900, astrid wrote:
>I have seen his daughter in person. This lady did not look like her at all.
>Maybe someone could check the credits ?
>
>
> > --- astrid wrote:
> > , he chooses a
> > > young lady to dance with
> > > (45 years younger than him ?),
>
>nancy wrote:
> > That would be his daughter, Johanna, with whom he is
> > partnered for workshops and the like. Not his 'niece'.
> >
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:32:53 -0800
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
The answer to your question about the young woman who
dances with Copes in a milonga is:
Lorena Yakono, who partnered with Roberto Herrera in
the revival of "Tango Argentino" on Broadway.
As for other women that Copes dances in "Tango", they
are Mia Maestro and Cecilia Narova.
El Duke.
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> I have seen his daughter in person. This lady did
> not look like her at all.
> Maybe someone could check the credits ?
>
>
> > --- astrid wrote:
> > , he chooses a
> > > young lady to dance with
> > > (45 years younger than him ?),
>
> nancy wrote:
> > That would be his daughter, Johanna, with whom he
> is
> > partnered for workshops and the like. Not his
> 'niece'.
> >
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:39:08 -0500
From: Varvara Kountouzi <varvarak@POBOX.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
What difference does it make whether the young lady is Copes' daughter or
not? Astrid's comment referred to the message of the scene in the movie
(i.e. older guy - young lady), not the reality. Astrid, please correct me
if I'm wrong.
Barbara
> >
> > > --- astrid wrote:
> > > , he chooses a
> > > > young lady to dance with
> > > > (45 years younger than him ?),
> >
> > nancy wrote:
> > > That would be his daughter, Johanna, with whom he
> > is
> > > partnered for workshops and the like. Not his
> > 'niece'.
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:24:16 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
> What difference does it make whether the young lady is Copes' daughter or
> not? Astrid's comment referred to the message of the scene in the movie
> (i.e. older guy - young lady), not the reality. Astrid, please correct me
> if I'm wrong.
>
> Barbara
First of all, would people please borrow the video and look at it, before
they post their assumptions wildly. Logical conclusions that just because
"Johana is a good dancer, and she is in the credits, she must be the one
dancing with him in that particular scene", are a little short sighted and
sloppy.
So is"I have not noticed Copes, and therefore he is not the instructor".
Come on, you guys, 1036 people have to read this stuff (unless they actively
choose not to).
And Barbara-now I have to think about, whether the above is what I was
trying to say. First of all, what is the big deal whether it is his daughter
or not ? Copes likes to dance with his daughter, after he broke up with his
partner Maria Nieves. But in the movie, he is not Copes, he is playing
somebody else ! And his daughter may be playing someone else too (she is
only listed as "dance instructor" (!) in the credits). But she is not the
one in that scene, we have established that now, have we ? If not, look at
the movie again.
Anyway, that pretty young women like to dance with certain old men, because
those men dance a lot better than certain young men, is a known fact, and
quite common in BA, right ?
Which brings me back to my pet peeve: when are men ever going to wisen up
about choosing their dance partners ? ; )
Astrid
>
>
> > >
> > > > --- astrid wrote:
> > > > , he chooses a
> > > > > young lady to dance with
> > > > > (45 years younger than him ?),
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:58:39 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
> --- astrid wrote:
> Which brings me back to my pet peeve: when are men ever going to wisen up
> about choosing their dance partners ? ; )
>
Many already do ;-)
Carefully chosen partners to all,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:27:28 -0800
From: Rick FromPdx <bugs1959bunny@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Cinema Tango
>Which brings me back to my pet peeve: when are men ever going to wisen up
>about choosing their dance partners ? ; )
I'm curious about the following scenario. Suppose the world got inverted somehow & now its commonly expected that women will do the asking, for dances. Not men. What criteria might be used? When its left up to the guys, I see some pretty familiar themes/patterns... Looks & relative age seem to hold a lot of currency.
Rick
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:02:56 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Copes, cinema tango, etc.
"...what is the big deal
whether it is his daughter
or not ? Copes likes to dance with his daughter, after
he broke up with his
partner Maria Nieves...."
Sounds like a discussion of the movie "Chinatown"! You
know, the one with Fay Dunaway and Jack Nicholson. One
of the greatest, BTW!:) Daughter, mother,
father....who can sort it all out. And besides, what
does it matter? They dance beautifully together, so
what else matters?
One of the greatest tango scenes I've ever seen in my
life is in the movie with Fay Dunaway in the old film
"The Thomas Crown Affair", not the new version. I'm
talking about the chess scene, of course. ;)
Luda
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:12:11 -0800
From: Evan Wallace <evanw@INGENIUX.COM>
Subject: Pet Peeves (was: Cinema Tango)
Astrid wrote:
"Anyway, that pretty young women like to dance with certain old men,
because those men dance a lot better than certain young men, is a known
fact, and quite common in BA, right ? Which brings me back to my pet
peeve: when are men ever going to wisen up about choosing their dance
partners ? ; )"
I dunno...maybe when the pretty young women stop soliciting and
accepting dances from older, better dancers?
Evan
