898 Community Growth - The Next Generation
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 23:58:07 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Community Growth - The Next Generation
I just got home from a Portland Swing Club dance (West Coast Swing, Hustle,
Night Club 2step & Cha-Cha). In the mid-90s the swing music was
predominantly Blues &/or R&B. Now that genre is a minority of the music,
much of it replaced by music of the next generation of young swing dancers.
Lots of young dancers from our local colleges/universities.
Suppose the next generation of young Tango dancers, worldwide, start
applying pressure for changes in music at dances, that speaks to them. For
the sake of this argument, the music will have a clear beat, that anyone can
dance to. It could be modern Tango music or alternative Tango music. Is
there a way to address that issue, without sending them somewhere else to
dance? I imagine this sort of thing has being going on, from generation to
generation, for as long as humans have been around. Those darn kids... :o)
Rick
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:50:29 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
>Clear Beat for dancing
>Modern Tango
not many choices
not much variety
Pugliese, Piazzolla and Salgan introduced progressive sensibilities into
tango in which the drama was heightened through pauses and, in some cases,
tempo changes. With Pugliese's orchestra, the transitions were used more
sparingly and in contrast with a strong marcato rhythm. By contrast,
smaller orchestras--such as Piazzolla's and the contemporary orchestras
who follow his example--rely heavily on abrupt tempo changes and rubato
playing to create their dramatic effects. The smaller orchestras may have
taken this approach because they lack enough members to produce drama
through the sophisticated instrumental coloring used by larger golden-age
orchestras.
Nonetheless, one can find a few modern recordings that are suitable for
dancing. (See <https://www.tejastango.com/post-golden-age.html>.)
One problem is that the recordings are made by modern tango orchestras and
have a sufficiently clear dance beat draw from a relatively narrow sound
pallette. A much richer variety of dance music can be found in the
recordings from the Golden Age.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:55:39 -0600
From: Korey Ireland <korey@KODAIR.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
>
>
> Suppose the next generation of young Tango dancers, worldwide, start
> applying pressure for changes in music at dances, that speaks to them. For
> the sake of this argument, the music will have a clear beat, that
> anyone can
> dance to. It could be modern Tango music or alternative Tango music. Is
> there a way to address that issue, without sending them somewhere else to
> dance? I imagine this sort of thing has being going on, from generation to
> generation, for as long as humans have been around. Those darn kids... :o)
>
>
I've been following this thread for a bit, and feel compelled to weigh
in. Lots of great comments about diversity, subjectivity, danceability,
so I'll leave all this alone. But I wonder about history, and tango as
an art form/social dance. People change. Temperments and fashions
shift, aesthetics evolve, and this seems to present constant drama for
tango. Its certainly nothing new. I'm sure that dancers reacted the
same way to Salgan, or Pugliese; probably even Calo and DiSarli at one
point had their detractors who proclaimed the 'new music' as
"undanceable." Tango music had a strong run of progressive development,
but somewhere along the lines it left then dance hall, or maybe it was
the dancers who left the music? As the music became more dynamic, more
syncopated, less predictable, perhaps the dancers opted for the
familiar, and turned away from the contemporary? There are probably
lots of interesting perspectives on how this came about, but what we all
seem to be able to agree on is that for several decades, we have gone
without substantial new tango music for dancing. Recently, as the dance
finds renewed popularity, there has been a surge of interest in creating
new tango music for dancing, but those of us who are interested in this
face some peculiar challenges. How to create music of our day, which
feels like tango? How to embrace the heritage of tango music without
being anachronistic? There are a wide range of approaches, many
embracing or exploring other musical forms. For those who are
interested in these experiments, check out Sera Una Noche, Gotan, New
York Tango Trio, Pablo Ziegler, Cuarteto Almagro, La Chicana, Trio
Obscur, Tango Lorca...(I'm sure many of you could add to this list -
please do...) These projects all have an element of fusion: tango meets
jazz, tango meets club music, tango meets klezmer....and I think this is
a very natural path for tango music. Seems very much in line with what
Piazolla was doing late in his career. But then we're back to the
question: is it dance music? And to me the answer has to do with our
conception of tango. If we look at tango music as a wholly seperate
phenomena from tango dancing, then this becomes a pivotal question, a
litmus test for any new "tango" music. Can we dance to it the same way
we dance to D'Arienzo or (insert your favorite classic orchestra here)?
But if we conceive of tango music and dance as two expressions of the
same impulse, two limbs of the same body, then we can rethink/rephrase
the question -- "how do we dance to *this* tango music?"
I realize there are many who prefer for tango to be a time capsule,
frozen in a glorious slice of history where the music and the dance
traditions seemed to syncronize effortlessly. I think thats fine, it
certainly has a place in a "living history" context. In fact, I think
its a lovely idea. But there is also an artform and social phenomenon
of tango that won't sit still. It is as dynamic as we are.
So, my questions to the collective wisdom:
Are we ready to look at music and dance as integral parts of one tango
tradition?
Is it possible/desireable for that tradition to continue to evolve to
reflect the changes in our world?
If so, how do we foster this development?
For myself, its "yes", "yes", and "wholeheartedly" :-)
I think a big part of the answer is for each "limb" of the tango body
to take a greater interest in the body as a whole. Dancers can seek out
and support the musicians in their community who are devoted to tango.
Musicians can focus their efforts on creating music that dances well.
We can learn alot from each other and grow alot together. In my
community, we are very fortunate to have a fabulous, young tango
ensemble (Tango Lorca) that has a reperatory of standards from the
golden era, as well as contemporary pieces, and many originals. The
band developed in the center of the dance community, and the dance
community developed along side the band. I've had a long standing
policy of encouraging the musicians to attend workshops for free and
more recently, I've been offering dance lessons to band members, and its
been very fruitful. As they become more interested (and more
proficient) in dancing, their music becomes more accesible for dancers.
But I'm very interested to hear how other communities address this,
and how these issues resonate with the larger tango world. Are we
preserving history, or are we creating it?
respectfully,
Korey Ireland
PS, I'm contemplating developing a web page on contemporary tango music
for dancing, please contact me if you'd like to contribute...
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:37:45 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Rick:
> >Clear Beat for dancing
> >Modern Tango
Stephen:
>Pugliese, Piazzolla and Salgan introduced progressive sensibilities into
>tango in which the drama was heightened through pauses and, in some cases,
>tempo changes. With Pugliese's orchestra, the transitions were used more
>sparingly and in contrast with a strong marcato rhythm. By contrast,
>smaller orchestras--such as Piazzolla's and the contemporary orchestras
>who follow his example--rely heavily on abrupt tempo changes and rubato
>playing to create their dramatic effects. The smaller orchestras may have
>taken this approach because they lack enough members to produce drama
>through the sophisticated instrumental coloring used by larger golden-age
>orchestras.
I was someone who always liked strange foreign music, yet I have to
confess that it took me a long time to "feel" tango. I remember
clearly the moment I stepped out of the Ideal halfway my first trip
to Buenos Aires. There was a roaring in my mind (my veins?) as the
drug of tango took hold.
One of the problems in this discussion is that we are talking the
difference between apples and oranges.
Rick clearly likes the the BIG DRAMA and ENERGY of modern tangos. He
doesn't hear that in the older music. Traditional tango dancers love
the subtle RHYTHMIC COMPLEXITY and PLAYFULNESS of older tango music,
which just doesn't appeal to Rick. The big energy of modern tango is
oppressive, and takes away our freedom to play and interpret.
Rick is absolutely free to dance the way he wants, but he errs when
he suggests that the golden era dancers and DJs should change to
satisfy his personal preference.
Rick is correct when he points out that modern ears find the newer
music easier to hear. Educating new dancers in the rhythms and music
is an essential aspect of teaching people how to dance.
The main issue is one of musical and dance sensibilities, not some
flaw in the older music like "lack of a clear beat" or "poor
recording fidelity".
What is the big difference?
Modern tango music has had a lot of influence from Jazz and Classical
music. The orchestras play primarily for audiences, not dancers.
Tempo, drama and emotional contrasts abound within one piece. The
sound is BIGGER. An instrument may have a complex part, something the
musicians love. Solo singers take stage front and are given freedom
to interpret while the orchestra follows the singer.
All this makes for a more "obvious" interpretation. You pretty much
have ONE way to interpret the music. Big movement here, quiet
movement there, fast phrase, slow and dense next phrase... It is
probably "easier" for a modern newcomer to tango to hear the music
and the beat when it is more obvious.
Stage dancers love the BIGNESS of modern tango. It makes the "story"
more clear for an audience. Adios Nonino is very compelling to our
ears, but it is a great dancer who can rise to fulfill the emotional
content of that piece.
Golden era tangos arranged with the dancers in mind don't put one
dramatic line up front. The rhythms, melody and harmonies trade off
between the instruments. The orchestra works together as a whole, not
as backup to a soloist. The singer is "just" another instrument, and
never takes over to dominate.
This gives the dancer a freer and more "subtle" experience. You have
multiple ways to interpret the same music. The dancers become an
integral PART of the orchestra, interpreters with their own voice.
I prefer the rhythmic playfulness and freedom of the older tangos.
Pugliese is so interesting because he arranged a lot of music in a
bigger way, with lots of dramatic and temp contrasts without leaving
the dancers behind.
Piazzolla is so difficult because the near constant 3-3-2 doesn't
permit much rhythmic freedom.
Missing Drums.
The other reason tango music is difficult for modern ears is that the
beat is not normally marked by drums. The beat and rhythms are
interpreted by the musical instruments.
But there are drummers in tango: the DANCERS!
If you think of your feet as the missing drums, it allows you a great
range of rhythmic interpretation. You can fill in the missing
half-beat in Di Sarli, you can choose to mark the 3-3-2 in Troilo or
stick with the underlying 4-4. The follower and leader might be
marking different beats. Even more interesting, the follower might
start suggesting rhythms back to the leader and we get a very playful
conversation.
I find modern tangos more oppressive to me as a dancer precisely
because the clarity in beat, drama and emotion are so compelling.
This makes me feel like a slave to the orchestra's interpretation.
"Libertango" vs "Azabache". The beat of the first is constant and
insistent "You must do it THIS way!"; the second is so free and
playful.
This is what teachers and DJs do, or should do.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 10:33:31 -0600
From: Korey Ireland <korey@KODAIR.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Thanks to Tom for this articulate reply.
>
>
> Rick clearly likes the the BIG DRAMA and ENERGY of modern tangos. He
> doesn't hear that in the older music. Traditional tango dancers love
> the subtle RHYTHMIC COMPLEXITY and PLAYFULNESS of older tango music,
> which just doesn't appeal to Rick. The big energy of modern tango is
> oppressive, and takes away our freedom to play and interpret.
viva la difference...but, Tom, of course you would want to qualify this
statement by saying the big energy tango takes away *your* freedom to
play and interpret. I think other dancers have just the opposite
experience, that they are inspired to be more playful, and have more to
say in thier dance with the "big" tangos. Its just a preference, not an
absolute. I think its ok to charecterize these dancers as traditional,
or contemporary, as long as there is no implicit value judgement in
those terms. But how often is that the case?
>
> This gives the dancer a freer and more "subtle" experience. You have
> multiple ways to interpret the same music. The dancers become an
> integral PART of the orchestra, interpreters with their own voice.
fascinating. I often describe the exact same sensation dancing to
contemporary music. For me, there is actually more room to interpret,
especial in the small ensemble music. Hugo Diaz Trio, Trio Gomina,
Quinteto Real...(all of which show a good deal of jazz influence) with
these ensembles I often feel like I can alternate between rhythm
section, and melodic, lyrical gestures because the divisions are so
clear within the ensemble...Again, I think its just a matter of taste
and perspective, not anything inherent in the music itself.
>
> Piazzolla is so difficult because the near constant 3-3-2 doesn't
> permit much rhythmic freedom.
Tell that to latin or african percussionists who spend a lifetime
"playing" within rhythmic strutures that mix 2's and 3's (3-3-4-2-4 is a
common structure). Perhaps its less accessible to our ears because its
not symmetrical, but again, the difficulty is not embedded in the music,
theres at least as much room to play here, it just takes a different
perspective. If you have a vocabulary of symmetrical "syncopations"
(Quick, Quick, Slow) these are going to play against the Piazzola
groove. But thats ok too.
>
>
>
> I find modern tangos more oppressive to me as a dancer precisely
> because the clarity in beat, drama and emotion are so compelling.
> This makes me feel like a slave to the orchestra's interpretation.
> "Libertango" vs "Azabache". The beat of the first is constant and
> insistent "You must do it THIS way!"; the second is so free and
> playful.
>
>
This fascinates me. It seems that you prefer the rhythmic drive and
drama (the inner rhythms) to come from the dancers. When those elements
are more present in the music, you find less room for yourself. I think
this is a testament to your musicality as a dancer; but please
understand, different dancers experience the music differently. It is
certain that for some, Azabache is the unrelenting beat that inhibits
their creativity, while the driving syncopation of Libertango frees them
to explore. For me, well, you've picked two of my favorites, I feel
compelled to dance very differently to each, and I feel like each has a
better moment in a dance evening (the moment for Libertango is rather
rare in my view), but I'd hate to have to endorse one as danceable, at
the expense of the other.
In any case, I think this is a valuable discussion and I look forward to
hearing more perspectives.
-Korey
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:01:37 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
In response to Tom's post, Korey says:
>>This gives the dancer a freer and more "subtle" experience. You have
>>multiple ways to interpret the same music. The dancers become an
>>integral PART of the orchestra, interpreters with their own voice.
>fascinating. I often describe the exact same sensation dancing to
>contemporary music. For me, there is actually more room to interpret,
>especial in the small ensemble music. Hugo Diaz Trio, Trio Gomina,
>Quinteto Real...(all of which show a good deal of jazz influence) with
>these ensembles I often feel like I can alternate between rhythm
>section, and melodic, lyrical gestures because the divisions are so
>clear within the ensemble...Again, I think its just a matter of taste
>and perspective, not anything inherent in the music itself.
I have to agree with Tom completely. All these musical ensembles that Korey
quotes are extremely difficult to dance tango to. The "freedom" and "room to
interpret" which Korey speaks about is basically a myth for the average
dancer. The only dancers (IMHO) who can dance well to those orquestras are
very experienced and gifted dancers. The reason so many beginners or
non-dancers like that music is because they can more easily ignore it and
move around as though they are dancing.
>theres at least as much room to play here, it just takes a different
>perspective. If you have a vocabulary of symmetrical "syncopations"
>(Quick, Quick, Slow) these are going to play against the Piazzola
>groove. But thats ok too.
Again, with all due respect, this is wishful thinking. Piazzolla hated for
people to dance to his later musical compositions. He's been actually quoted
to express feelings to that effect. He purposefully wrote, arranged and
played his music so it could not be danced as classic tango.
>>This makes me feel like a slave to the orchestra's interpretation.
>>"Libertango" vs "Azabache". The beat of the first is constant and
>>insistent "You must do it THIS way!"; the second is so free and
>>playful.
>This fascinates me. It seems that you prefer the rhythmic drive and
>drama (the inner rhythms) to come from the dancers. When those >elements
>are more present in the music, you find less room for yourself. I >think
>this is a testament to your musicality as a dancer; but please
>understand, different dancers experience the music differently. It is
>certain that for some, Azabache is the unrelenting beat that inhibits
>their creativity, while the driving syncopation of Libertango frees >them
>to explore. For me, well, you've picked two of my favorites, I feel
>compelled to dance very differently to each, and I feel like each has a
>better moment in a dance evening (the moment for Libertango is rather
>rare in my view), but I'd hate to have to endorse one as danceable, at
>the expense of the other.
>In any case, I think this is a valuable discussion and I look forward >to
>hearing more perspectives.
>-Korey
Well, Korey, here is my perspective. Tom is 100% right on all he said and
wrote. What a lot of folks seem to be forgetting here is that we are
discussing dancing "tango". Not some sort of free-flowing or contact-improv
dance. Tango has certain characteristics and these are the driving beat and
the rhythmic steps made to the 4x4 or the classic era tangos or even the 2x2
of the earlier tango music. Tango is not rock-n-roll or Cha cha cha or
samba, it's tango and it should be danced to classic tango music. The later
interpreters of tango as well as Gardel of the old days, do not play for
dancers at all. Their music is for audiences that listen, not for the
milonga floors. The rreason so many folks like to dance to big Pugliese
sounds or even Piazzolla pieces is probably because they see professional,
highly talented show dancers dance their excellent choreography or their
masterful improvisations to these songs. Also, they seem to be more readily
available from your local Tower records of K-mart. I say, dance however you
want and to whatever music you desire. You could even call it tango if you
want, but that would be most incorrect. If we are going to promote, enjoy
and dance authentic Argentine Tango, we need to stay close to the roots and
not go off into tangents.
Real tangos to all,
Manuel
v
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:17:49 -0900
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Korey, I love you, this is a fascinating discussion. It reminds me of
the historical time when Julio De Caro introduced new concepts to tango,
and hence began the split between the traditionalists and the
innovators. From my point of view, this was a win-win for both camps,
because in the end we had more music to dance to - the traditionalist
and evolutionary camps both grew tremendously. Today, we love it all,
from both camps. We love the traditionalists like D'Arienzo and the
evolutionists like Pugliese, and those who didn't really follow either
camp, but were influenced by both, like Di Sarli. So history can
provide a great deal of perspective when we contemplate the discussion
Korey started. We can take sides in one camp or the other, or enjoy
both. Nothing wrong with either of these choices, but the chances are,
that the evolution will have a net positive effect for everyone,
although it likely to be a bumpy ride at times while things shift
around. If we are sensitive and thoughtful, I think we can smooth a lot
of the bumps out.
With the revival of tango that is occurring now, I see this same kind of
a thing going on. People are pushing the boundaries of tango, asking
hard questions about the dance and the music, while other people are
thoroughly enjoying the traditional music and dance. For me, it's
win-win because I enjoy it all. I love dancing to the traditional tango
music all night long, and I also love to dance to music played by DJs
who are tastefully, sensitively pushing the boundaries, or by live
musicians/bands/orchestras who are injecting their energy into the
scene. As a DJ, I find myself totally inspired by the dance energy in
the room. Given an event that is filled with people who enjoy
traditional tango music, I'll happily play classic music all night.
Given a room full of dancers who enjoy experimenting with the music and
dance, and I'll get creative with the music as well.
However, I think there tends to be a bit of confusion. I think it was
Rick who stated that the younger, creative dancers would rather hear the
modern music. Well, that's not necessarily what I'm seeing when I
attend one of the awesome parties with a younger crowd, many right there
in Portland, or at the all-night milonga in Berkeley, etc. The younger,
talented, creative dancers go absolutely crazy for Biagi and Troilo in
particular - the really rhythmic stuff from the late 30's and early
40's. They tear these rhythms to pieces and the energy goes through the
ceiling. The same crowd will melt down to a set of romantic valses from
the 40's, then ask for Piazzolla or some of the GOOD non-tango pieces,
and they create poetry in motion to this music. One of the most
beautiful moments in all of tango for me was watching about 40 of them
dance to a Piazzolla set around 4am - it was just absolutely
spell-binding to watch them dance - the floorcraft and navigation was
impeccable, there was not a wild movement to be found, and they were
unbelievably connected. It was just amazing dancing firmly rooted in
the traditions of tango.
My point is, the talented younger dancers that I see tend to like it
all, as long as it is played at the right time. Most of them dance well
on crowded floors as well as empty floors - they understand how to
navigate, their floorcraft is generally very good, and I love having
them on the floor. They understand the traditions of tango, and their
entire dance reflects that. They are amazed at the virtuosity of the
golden age musicians, but at the same time they go out of their way to
support musicians who are learning to play tango music or DJs who are
trying to push the boundaries of tango a bit. They have a very
all-inclusive attitude, and they are an absolute pleasure to DJ for.
I really like the voice that Korey is adding to this conversation, and I
agree with Korey completely when he states that musicality is an
individual phenomenon. I find equal potential for creativity,
improvisation, and expression in the traditional tangos as I do with the
modern orchestras, including Piazzolla's later works, Hugo Diaz, and the
good non-tangos. I'm sorry if Piazzolla didn't want us to dance to his
later music, I think some of it is fantastic to dance to *in the right
context*. I love the people who are learning to play music for tango
dancers and support them when I get the chance. I think we need to
support these musicians, encourage them, include them in the tango
community and try to create something positive with their enthusiasm.
There's nothing to lose and everything to gain. Korey's efforts to
teach his musician-friends to dance gain my utmost applause, because
this is the kind of supportive, open-minded scene I want to be a part
of.
In the end, I'm fully in support of any effort to push the boundaries of
tango as an art form, either in the music, the dance, or hopefully in
both, because as far as dancing is concerned, I see the music as an
integral, internal, and wholly necessary part of the experience, rather
than an outside influence. However, I feel that the evolution needs to
unfold organically, not in a forced or rushed fashion. We owe it to
ourselves to become familiar with the roots of our art before we take
steps forward, because it is a rich art form already. We have a perfect
example in De Caro - he understood tango fully when he began to change
it, and the result was spectacular, with long-standing significance. We
have the same opportunity today. For those who are interested, let's
take that opportunity, with respect and awareness of what we have to
work with from the past. For those who aren't interested, that's
perfectly fine and I'm going to enjoy your parties as much as anyone
else's, because it's all good to me.
Dan
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:35:30 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
>In response to Tom's post, Korey says:
>
>>>This gives the dancer a freer and more "subtle" experience. You have
>>>multiple ways to interpret the same music. The dancers become an
>>>integral PART of the orchestra, interpreters with their own voice.
>
>>fascinating. I often describe the exact same sensation dancing to
>>contemporary music. For me, there is actually more room to interpret,
>>especial in the small ensemble music. Hugo Diaz Trio, Trio Gomina,
>>Quinteto Real...(all of which show a good deal of jazz influence) with
>>these ensembles I often feel like I can alternate between rhythm
>>section, and melodic, lyrical gestures because the divisions are so
>>clear within the ensemble...Again, I think its just a matter of taste
>>and perspective, not anything inherent in the music itself.
>
>I have to agree with Tom completely. All these musical ensembles that Korey
>quotes are extremely difficult to dance tango to. The "freedom" and "room to
>interpret" which Korey speaks about is basically a myth for the average
>dancer. The only dancers (IMHO) who can dance well to those orquestras are
>very experienced and gifted dancers. The reason so many beginners or
>non-dancers like that music is because they can more easily ignore it and
>move around as though they are dancing.
As a musician, Korey certainly has the understanding and ability to
become part of the orchestra even when the music is modern.
I'll stand by my distaste for Libertango as a dance number. Put it
on, and the crowd starts bouncing around like lindy hoppers. Milongas
with a candombe beat are much more my favorite.
Likewise, the problem isn't that one can NOT dance to Adio Nonino.
This is an intense piece that call for a great dancer. Social dance
and performance are very different. I'm in seventh heaven when the
crowd is so together that they follow perfectly the musical
variations within Pugliese.
That is challenge enough for me!
I have to be sure not to leave the impression that I am an
ultra-traditionalist.
While I'm primarily oriented toward the rhythmic music, I have been
known to play much more varied music. I rarely play anything post
1940, but for Pugliese, BUT, I have a few odd favorites like Nelly
Furtado and Sublime. (Nelly Furtado is the Canadian pop/hip-hop
singer; Sublime is a texas punk-ska band.)
Quite a bit of modern music has a "habanera beat", a slow, romantic
heart-beat. Fabrizio de Andre's CD "Anime Salve" for example has some
very nice things on it. Also Passatori by Richard Galliano.
You have to know why and when to play this stuff. As Dan says, it is
all about the right moment...which still could offend
unintentionally...I've done it, but the rest of the crowd went with
me.
The whole evening is a palette of different moods, and the DJs
responsibility is to paint emotions for the dancers. Bold strokes and
strong contrasts make it easier for the crowd to go with you.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:17:08 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Tom Stermitz writes:
>Rick clearly likes the the BIG DRAMA and ENERGY of modern tangos. He
>doesn't hear that in the older music. Traditional tango dancers love
>the subtle RHYTHMIC COMPLEXITY and PLAYFULNESS of older tango music,
>which just doesn't appeal to Rick. The big energy of modern tango is
>oppressive, and takes away our freedom to play and interpret.
Tom, here's a question for you. Suppose we magically somehow obtain
high-fidelity, stereophonic recordings of what the Golden Age actually
sounded like. How much drama & energy do you suppose you would be hearing &
dancing to? How do you suppose the sound would fill a room? Have you
listened & danced to Los Reyes?
If you & I could hop in a time machine, go back into the 30s & dance, what
would we experience.
I've been listening to Los Reyes & D'Arienzo back to back, I'll burn you a
CD for our upcoming Tango festival. I'm also curious where younger dancers
are going to take Tango music. Its going to happen, always does...
Rick
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 00:41:03 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
>Tom Stermitz writes:
>>Rick clearly likes the the BIG DRAMA and ENERGY of modern tangos. He
>>doesn't hear that in the older music. Traditional tango dancers love
>>the subtle RHYTHMIC COMPLEXITY and PLAYFULNESS of older tango music,
>>which just doesn't appeal to Rick. The big energy of modern tango is
>>oppressive, and takes away our freedom to play and interpret.
>
>Tom, here's a question for you. Suppose we magically somehow obtain
>high-fidelity, stereophonic recordings of what the Golden Age actually
>sounded like. How much drama & energy do you suppose you would be hearing &
>dancing to? How do you suppose the sound would fill a room? Have you
>listened & danced to Los Reyes?
>
>If you & I could hop in a time machine, go back into the 30s & dance, what
>would we experience.
>
>I've been listening to Los Reyes & D'Arienzo back to back, I'll burn you a
>CD for our upcoming Tango festival. I'm also curious where younger dancers
>are going to take Tango music. Its going to happen, always does...
It isn't the fidelity. (Yes, I'd like better fidelity.)
The 1950s, and 2000s tango sensibility is just different.
What I never hear from the newer interpretations is the "real" tango
drive and soul. It is like classical musicians trying to play salsa.
All intellect and superb playing, but they miss out on the street
feeling.
For example almost all the revival swing bands tend to play to fast.
Only occasionally do you get local swing bands that really love to
wallow in the 1930s groove. This hasn't really happened yet in tango.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:32:53 -0800
From: Fume <fume@TWOBANJOS.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
I'll chime in as another who prefers the (much) older tango styles, whether
in original Guardia Vieja recordings or as performed by Los Muchachos de
Antes and such. I know that DJs fret about the terrible fidelity of the
pre-1926 acoustic recordings, yet I find this antique sound quite endearing.
I accept tango as it is, just as I accept vintage clothing as it is-- I'm
not at all eager to "update" tango, which for me would be like altering a
pristine 1930's jacket so that it looks more like something you can buy at
Banana Republic (big U.S. clothing store chain). However, I accept other
dancers want to use movements and music which evoke the present; so be it.
Regrettably, many folks' "expanding the boundaries of tango" means poor
attempts at stage moves in a social setting. When I hear the opening notes
of a dramatic Piazzolla selection, I leave the dance floor and surrounds--
I don't want to be gored by someone's careless, kitschy boleos!
Enjoy,
</fume>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:44:47 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
I think Dan Boccia had it exactly right when he suggested that the
golden-age music of tango should be supplemented by music that pushes the
boundaries. Based on my personal experience, the gems for dancing from
all eras is what appeals to most tango dancers.
Personally, I think music should be selected on the basis of whether it is
good for dancing, not what era it is from. In putting together a
collection of music to play at milongas, I selected music that has a dance
beat, is of sufficient high fidelity and above all has a compelling
quality that speaks to the heart. I was willing to make some compromise
on sound quality for music that truly spoke to the heart. But I was
unwilling to select music where the dance beat disappears altogether, even
if if was the absolutely wonderful Piazzolla melodies.
I put no categories on the music in selecting the music best for dancing,
but after looking at what I selected, I found the vast majority of the
music is from the golden age.
Before categorizing my comments as being traditionalist, lets examine why
I ended up with more music from the golden age than contemporary
orchestras. First, many of the contemporary orchestras did not intend
their recordings for dancing. It was only after the revival in social
tango dancing in the 1990s that modern orchestras begin to make recordings
with social dancers in mind.
In addition golden-age orchestras recorded much more music than the
contemporary dance orchestras. Di Sarli had nearly 400 recordings;
D'Arienzo had around 900; Biagi almost 200. In the collection of music
that I compiled to take to milongas I ended up with 38 Di Sarli tracks, 50
D'Arienzo tracks, and 26 Biagi tracks. In selecting three tracks from
Orquesta El Arranque, six from Orquesta Color Tango, five from various
incarnations of the New York Tango Trio, and three from the Gotan Project,
I end up with a higher percentage of those orchestras' recorded music--and
I have to recognize that the complexity of most of the modern recordings
can be challenging to the less experienced dancers.
I might also note noticeably few modern orchestras play milongas. Dan
Diaz' Tango Camerata is one of the very few contemporary orchestras that
plays many milongas.
I am sure that some dancers find slavery in what they consider the bang,
bang, bang music of the golden age and freedom in dramatic contemporary
music. I am also sure that some find slavery in contemporary music and
freedom in the subtle rhythms of golden age. Personally I find freedom of
expression with good music from either era.
But, in hearing such comments, I begin wondering how well the DJ has done
the job of sorting through the music and finding the gems for dancing.
After attending many milongas, I know that there are DJs who play only
music from the golden age and for some reason have primarily selected duds
that only a have a bang, bang, bang rhythm and nothing else going for it.
The result is dull. From the few milonga I have attended where th e DJ
relied heavily on modern tango music, it would seem as though the DJs who
play this music nearly exclusively do not have a sufficient grounding in
tango dancing or tango rhythms to pick out the gems that are suitable for
dancing. They just seem to have large collections of relatively modern
tango music that they like to listen to.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:07:45 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Tom Stermitz wrote:
"Golden era tangos arranged with the dancers in mind
don't put one
dramatic line up front. The rhythms, melody and
harmonies trade off
between the instruments. The orchestra works together
as a whole, not
as backup to a soloist. The singer is "just" another
instrument, and
never takes over to dominate.
This gives the dancer a freer and more "subtle"
experience. You have
multiple ways to interpret the same music. The dancers
become an
integral PART of the orchestra, interpreters with
their own voice.
I prefer the rhythmic playfulness and freedom of the
older tangos."
I couldn't agree with you more. Consider, for example,
Canaro's version of La Cumparsita, with Mario Alonso
singing the single short verse toward the end. The
interchange among the instruments and the vocalist is
positively hypnotic, not to mention the possibilities
it opens up for the dancers. The dialogue is so
subtle. That's what makes it so enchanting. My
absolute favorite Cumparsita. And probably tango as
well.
I also like "Azabache", the Stamponi version. And
Canaro's "El Chino Pantaleon". And, and, and..... I
could go on and on. :)
And I do love to dance to Piazzola, too, sometimes....
:)
Luda
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:23:11 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Manuel
>In response to Tom's post, Korey says:
>
>>>This gives the dancer a freer and more "subtle" experience. You have
>>>multiple ways to interpret the same music. The dancers become an
>>>integral PART of the orchestra, interpreters with their own voice.
>
>>fascinating. I often describe the exact same sensation dancing to
>>contemporary music. For me, there is actually more room to interpret,
>>especial in the small ensemble music. Hugo Diaz Trio, Trio Gomina,
>>Quinteto Real...(all of which show a good deal of jazz influence) with
>>these ensembles I often feel like I can alternate between rhythm
>>section, and melodic, lyrical gestures because the divisions are so
>>clear within the ensemble...Again, I think its just a matter of taste
>>and perspective, not anything inherent in the music itself.
>
>I have to agree with Tom completely. All these musical ensembles that Korey
>quotes are extremely difficult to dance tango to. The "freedom" and "room to
>interpret" which Korey speaks about is basically a myth for the average
>dancer. The only dancers (IMHO) who can dance well to those orquestras are
>very experienced and gifted dancers. The reason so many beginners or
>non-dancers like that music is because they can more easily ignore it and
>move around as though they are dancing.
Manuel points remind me that the original topic was Community Growth.
There are two arguments going on at the same time...sort of at cross-purposes.
(1) Yes, it is possible to dance to different kinds of music, and yes
we have different preferences.
(2) What kind of music is best for Community Growth and teaching newcomers?
You can make a good case that a newcomer finds it easier to hear
music with a more familiar beat (drums?) or a more modern
arrangement, such as the big concert sound of 1950s tango, Piazzola,
or even non-tango.
I don't think this is the best way to train up their understanding of tango.
My position is that the rhythms of traditional 1930s & 1940s tango
are the most important foundation for a dancer, and the most
important basis for community development. Musicality sits on top of
rhythm and phrasing, and the "real" feel of tango is contained in
this older music.
Tango has interesting and complex vocabulary which in the hands of a
great dancer can become truly exciting, but it isn't the figures and
steps that really make up the essence of tango.
A beginner guy can dance with rhythm, feeling and musicality with a
small vocabulary. He can navigate the room, hold a beautiful woman in
his arms and dance to the music in just a few lessons, if he knows a
few walking steps and understands the beat...IF YOU PLAY FOR HIM
TANGOS THAT ARE EASY TO DANCE TO.
He has a lifetime to learn more vocabulary.
Our communities are still very small and very young. A smaller
repertoire of music emphasizing simpler rhythms will give us a better
shared basis. Festivals with more experienced dancers is a different
matter.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:41:38 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
I am glad that Tom has brought the discussion back to that of community
growth. Doing so more sharply brings into focus the issues involved in
choosing tango music for teaching and playing at milongas. We all
recognize that the more recent tango recordings have better sound quality
and modern musical sensibilities, and the dance beat is more prominent in
golden-age tangos.
Tom wrote:
>My position is that the rhythms of traditional 1930s & 1940s tango
>are the most important foundation for a dancer, and the most
>important basis for community development. Musicality sits on top of
>rhythm and phrasing, and the "real" feel of tango is contained in
>this older music.
The rhythmic feeling of tango is more clearly expressed in the older
music. The beat is more submerged in the newer music, but it was created
by musicians who have understanding of the music that precedes their own.
For the dancer to succeed in dancing to the newer music requires an
understanding of the older music. When I watch people dancing to modern
tango music who have not first developed their rhythmic skills with the
older music, I usually see people dancing without any sense of the beat.
For that reason, when we are teaching tango to beginners, Susan and I rely
heavily on music with simple and clear rhythms. We typically start with
1930s Canaro and Calo with Podesta before moving onto D'Arienzo and Di
Sarli. The simple rhythms help the dancers dance in the music. When
students are intermediate, we use the more complex music, such as Pugliese
and other orchestras.
As a DJ who is also working toward community development, however, the
issue is a little different. What music will appeal to the broad range of
dancers? It depends on the venue and the dancers. If there are many
beginning dancers, I think it pays to to stick to the simple rhythms. As
I play music with increasing complexity, I watch to see if the dancers are
staying in the music. If too many are having difficulty, I shift back
toward the simpler rhythms, and I do not play later Pugliese, Color Tango,
Sexteto Sur, El Arranque, or even Biagi. If the dancers are eating up the
music, however, I will play music with greater rhythmic complexity.
>Our communities are still very small and very young. A smaller
>repertoire of music emphasizing simpler rhythms will give us a
>better shared basis. Festivals with more experienced dancers is
>a different matter.
Tom makes a very good point. Although it may be entertaining to watch,
seeing a room full of advanced dancers who are dancing to very complex
music at a milonga, such a spectacle can deter beginners from even
participating. Growth of the community requires making the dance
accessible. Starting an evening with less complex music and building
toward more complex and dramatic music is a way to encourage greater
participation.
With best regards for the New Year,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:18:14 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Greetings friends,
...just a few snippets of opinion...
Stephen Brown wrote:
>
> Tom wrote:
> >My position is that the rhythms of traditional 1930s & 1940s tango
> >are the most important foundation for a dancer, and the most
> >important basis for community development. Musicality sits on top of
> >rhythm and phrasing, and the "real" feel of tango is contained in
> >this older music.
>
> The rhythmic feeling of tango is more clearly expressed in the older
> music. The beat is more submerged in the newer music, but it was created
> by musicians who have understanding of the music that precedes their own.
> For the dancer to succeed in dancing to the newer music requires an
> understanding of the older music. When I watch people dancing to modern
> tango music who have not first developed their rhythmic skills with the
> older music, I usually see people dancing without any sense of the beat.
Steve is spot-on in his observation. When I play new music (usually by
request) for the locals, much of the dancing can get hard to watch! ;-)
By some of the most accomplished (visiting) tango teachers and
performers, I've heard 'non-rhythmic' tangos referred to as "pivot
candy". Even though their improvised figures for such music may not
mirror a dominating rhythmic drive, I appreciate that there is a
rhythmic foundation to the figures, without which the energy and flow
simply don't speak "Tango".
Notwithstanding this opinion, it seems like an oversimplification for
Tom to comment, "...the "real" feel of tango is contained in this older
music". [Speaking only for myself] Clearly, we each decide what's
REAL. We each value 'this' and not 'that'. IMHO, there is great
golden-age music and there's a sizable body of very danceable golden-age
music that is not nearly as inspiring as less rhythmic new music! The
latter can inject lots of energy - much needed 'spice' in an evening's entertainment.
Even though the dancing can be hard to watch, as DJ I go ahead and play
some 'pivot candy'. It's 'real' for those who've requested it. Do they
feel the music the same way the recording artists felt when they played
it? Pffffffff! Do they feel it the same way that fine Argentine
dancers or choreographers feel it? Probably not - how could they?
Still, that is not a requirement to enjoy it. It becomes a matter of
community-building to accept this. The cultural context of tango imbues
both the music and the dance, and one doesn't learn much about culture
in a dance studio. It's easy to have the elitist attitude that those
with less experience and insight should agree with our personal,
(presumably) more informed or developed artistic sense. I confess to
sometimes feeling that way myself when personalities clash. Yet, if the
'Authenticity' argument can justify questioning someone's preferences,
then one's energy is channeled into being separate and/or different. At
the very highest levels of artistic 'authenticity', there has never been
much agreement nor tolerance in tango. [We needn't get into
name-dropping gossip here to support this statement...] For building
tango communities, positive energy is needed. "Authenticity" is a
double-edged sword and we have to watch out for the negative side. It's sharp!
I agree with Tom's statement that "the rhythms of traditional 1930s &
1940s tango are the most important foundation for a (tango) dancer..."
I just wanted to add that if there is one component of 'The Tango' that
is addictive, it's the feelings for which the music is responsible.
These can be very abstract in themselves, or if not, the figures they
make us create are certainly an abstraction of the feelings. If there
is inspiration in the newer music, then it should be played. Whether we
are inside or outside of Tango's cultural birthplace (but especially
outside), we should remember that knowing and following the 'real feel
of tango' is difficult and elusive. It is unique to each individual,
and we should each pursue it our own way.
Have fun doing that in '03!
Frank in Minneapolis
--
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
612-625-6441
Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church Street SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Department of Veterinary Pathobiology
205 Veterinary Science
1971 Commonwealth Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55108
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:21:31 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Community Growth - The Next Generation
I see lots of valid ideas/opinions all around, from people with varying
degrees of differing tastes. As it should be. I hope there's room at the
table for everyone [young, old, pre-geezer, beginners, intermediate,
snooty-advanced :o), traditionalists, modernists, alternativists], to have a
great experience of shared community & dancing. Things that are good for the
soul. Speaking for the U.S., a country rich in stuff & poor in spirit/soul.
The sensibility of Color Tango, Los Reyes, Sexteto Canyengue, Perfumes De
Tango, Cuarteto Cedron, Hugo Diaz, later DeAngelis, Canaro, DeSarli, Troilo
& others seems fine to me. Same goes for Tango2Evora by Loreena McKennit or
that haunting Turkish version "CokUzaklarda". I've heard audible gasps of
pleasure at the ends of some of those songs. DJs who are paying attention,
will have as well.
Tom, this may sound strange, yet again. I wish you were coming back to DJ
for us here in pdx at the next festival. I had a great time the last time
you were at the wheel, so did everyone I danced with. I thought you read the
energy of the room well & had a different take. I wish I had taped the
evening so I knew what songs your were playing & when.
Take care...
Rick
PS:
* I hope that Magellan/Einstein is quietly working away out there :o)
* I hope its ok to enjoy drama & energy again; now about that pesky
sensibility :o)
* Best wishes to pdx dancer's heading to Argentina tomorrow.
* Bugs is going dancing in Minneapolis in Jan., hope its not cold there.
In PDX, snow & cold (30 deg) closes schools, people can't drive, is
newsheadlines & people freak out.
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:23:36 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
In this thread so far, most of the discussion has focused on which styles of
music are appropriate for community growth. Tom's image about dancing as if
you're a member of the orchestra was especially vivid for me, and got me
thinking about how dancers begin to get that feeling for the first time...
because that's one of the experiences that will make them come back, I
think, and become real community members.
Stephen Brown wrote:
>>>>
As a DJ who is also working toward community development, however, the
issue is a little different. What music will appeal to the broad range of
dancers? It depends on the venue and the dancers.
<<<<
The appeal of the music also greatly depends, not just on the selected
style, but on what specific tangos, milongas, and valses the community
really KNOWS at the level of individual recorded arrangements. There's a
difference between being comfortable with a given rhythmic style, on the one
hand, and actually being familiar enough with a given arrangement of a given
tango that you are actually CAPABLE of "being another instrument in the
orchestra" for that tango.
The problem from the dancer's side:
Most of the great teachers I've had eventually make the point that,
especially for leaders, there comes a time when in order to get better, you
have to start "mastering" the music - listening to it in the shower, in the
car, all the time. They tell us that this is the only way for the 900+
members of this list who are not from Argentina to begin to approximate the
effortless awareness of the "Tango Top 40" that is the birthright of many
Argentines, and to really KNOW the details of the music in our dancing
bones. Do you know where the pauses are going to be? Do you know the ending?
Are there tricks in this number like a DiSarli piano flourish at the end, or
a Pugliese "skipped beat" ending? Or how about the timing of the long
pauses in DeAngelis' "Pavadita"? Can you land your follower's next step
right when the music returns? The musicians all need to know the
arrangements at this level. Similarly, dancers who know a given arrangement
really well will tend to prefer that paricular arrangement at a milonga
because they will be able to express more of the details of that arrangement
with their partner. But how can I know whether the arrangements I like will
be played at a given milonga, and give me some return for the effort I put
in to learn them in detail?
The problem from the DJ's side:
Do I stick to the "Top 40 hits" arrangements of frequently played tango,
with which I personally am getting bored, or do I instead relieve the tedium
I perceive by bringing in more "interesting" arrangements of the standards
within the same style that will be less familiar to the ears of the leaders
on the floor? How do I help "educate" my particular community to a wider
variety of "stylistically valid" music (pick your favorite style) without
posing the problem of unfamiliar arrangements for leaders in milonga
settings?
Let's assume we agree with the Argentine teachers who say that this level of
musical mastery is what makes for great tango. So, how to develop this level
of detailed awareness of the music as fast as possible within a given
community? Teachers, organizers and DJs have a special responsibility here,
because they frequently find themselves answering the beginner's question
"What tango music should I buy?"
Our solution:
For the last six months of so, in our classes and milongas, and in practicas
we DJ for, Deb and I have taken the following multifaceted approach:
1) We have standardized on what music we use in classes. We use the 2-CD
set "Pa' Que Bailen Los Muchachos" (from the "Maestros del Tango Argentino"
series, reasonably widely available from various web sources) as workshop
music for all our fundamentals and continuing classes. While I'm sure there
are other collections some would prefer, and while your favorite tango may
well not be on this set, it's a well-thought-out collection of 40 dance
standards (24 tangos, 8 milongas, 8 waltzes) which at least touches on most
of the important styles and feature many familiar arrangements (Calo,
Canaro, DiSarli, DeAngelis, D'Arienzo, Firpo, Fresedo, Gobbi, Pugliese,
Troilo - sorry, modernists, no Piazzolla!). Each time we teach some
material, we also mention the name of the song we played, the orchestra, and
where it is on the 2-CD set.
2) As we develop the basic tango vocabulary, we hold periodic "musicality
classes" where we focus for an entire class on ONE song from this
collection. The students learn from experience that, if they REALLY know a
song, they can have a much wider repertoire of technically simple, socially
appropriate, yet charming vocabulary to share with their partner. A useful
side effect is that students learn to really listen to the music sooner that
they would if they were focusing only on the steps.
3) We tell the students that, if they continue with tango, they'll need to
invest some time in REALLY LEARNING the music, as they just did with this
one song. We keep a few of these 2-CD sets on hand (at least, we try to!).
4) Then we GUARANTEE them that, at our milongas, we will play at least 75%
of the arrangements from this collection. Of course, 30 tangos aren't enough
for five hours of music, but we space them through the evening so no one has
to wait too long before hearing something guaranteed to be familiar. When
we have a guest DJ (and many thanks to Dave Schmitz for his frequent
services!), we work with them to be able to fulfill our "guarantee". We (or
our guest DJ's) still have room to get creative with the rest of the
evening.
In this way, beginning leaders are given a decent subset of tangos for their
first purchase, and are simultaneously given lots of "musicality-oriented"
dance vocabulary sooner to enjoy the music with their followers. They can
also count on hearing the songs they've learned well when they go social
dancing. The followers are treated to more expressive interpretations of the
music, and (if they themselves are familiar with the arrangement) can add
their own musicalities within the lead.
The feedback we're getting from our milongas confirms that this approach
works very well for everybody.
This leaves open the question of how best to introduce
unfamiliar/avant-garde/modern tango music in a growing community. To me the
(general) answer is the same as with trying out new dance vocabulary -
better to do it at a practica than at a milonga! (Of course there are
always exceptions...) That way, innovation continues, aspiring DJs can try
their ideas at practicas and get the feedback they need on unfamiliar music
in an informal setting. But more importantly IMHO, the high-value "milonga
time" for beginners isn't consumed with hearing unfamiliar arrangements
"once only", right when a beginning leader might have been really looking
forward to a great tanda of familiar music with that special partner...
The other alternative for unfamiliar music is, of course, late at night at
the milonga when things get a little wacky anyway...but then those who stay
that late know what to expect! And by then, the beginners have had their
satisfying night with lots of familiar music, and will be ready for more and
better tango adventures when they come back again...and again and again...
Thanks to all for a great discussion!
Abrazos all around,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 23:31:10 -0800
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Hey everybody,
It has been fun watching this discussion develop. There are many
different tastes out there, and many ways to listen to and interpret
music.
I don't have much time to say anything right now, I am leaving tomorrow
morning for Buenos Aires. I am looking forward to seeing the rest of
this discussion when I get back. While I am in Buenos Aires you can
count on it that I will be listening to the DJs, and asking about the
music if I hear anything I like that I don't know. I will be listening
to the way the good DJs put together the evening, and how the feeling of
the milonga develops. For all of the possible experimenting that I
could do with the music at a milonga I would still rather use the good
DJs in Buenos Aires as the model for what I do.
This is not my first trip to Buenos Aires. On my first trip I listened
very intently to the music, I would try to guess the orchestra, and I
asked people the names of songs, and orchestras when I didn't know. You
can ask almost any of the older dancers, and they are very happy to talk
with someone interested in their music and culture. I thought I knew
something about tango when I went there, I had been dancing for almost
four years. In some ways I did know something, but when I was around
the older dancers I felt like a baby, I felt like I knew very little,
and that it was time to listen up rather than try to tell everyone what
I knew. I hope to experience the same feeling this time.
What amazed me the most about the best DJs was the fact that I couldn't
make myself sit down. I would decide that I had to sit out for a couple
of tandas or my feet would fall off, and the next tanda would begin, I
would hear the song, and be asking someone to dance before even thinking
about it. I would know who I wanted to dance with, and just couldn't
bear to sit down. The tandas of tropical were a blessing because I had
the excuse that I didn't really know how to dance to the music. I came
home wanting to DJ like that. I wanted to learn how to keep the energy
that high in the room, and how to keep most of the people on the floor.
I don't know how close I get to a good Buenoa Aires DJ, I don't know if
I could successfully DJ for one of those milongas, but I still am
learning. I still want to have most of the people in the room on the
floor, and I want the room to have a great energy. I want people to
feel like they can't leave until the music stops. When there are a lot
of people on the dance floor, I feel like I am doing the best I can.
This all relates to community building for me in the following way. I
have a couple of reasons for using the Buenos Aires DJs as a model.
First I think they are the best. And second, as a member of my own
community I feel it is important that the people in my community know
the music they will dance to in Buenos Aires, I think most will want to
go sooner or later. I could play any kind of music, but I really want
them to feel as much at home as possible there. There is so much to
learn, why should they have to struggle with the music?
I have so much more I could say about this, things I feel about the
golden age music and the amazing musicians who made it. About the
people who evolved the music, Astor Piazzolla foremost among them, and
about the music they created. About the modern musicians who are
approaching tango, how they are not typically dancers, about how they
want to evolve the music without first going to the root. The list goes
on. These things in the end all are arguments of taste, and arguing
about taste may be fun, but little will ever be resolved. I like the
things I like for a reason, and I can talk at length about the reasons.
I hope you are all passionate enough to be able to talk all night about
it too. That is the joy we have in tango.
Many happy tangos to all, and happy new year!
Robert
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 09:03:43 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Brian Dunn wrote:
>The problem from the dancer's side:
>[H]ow can I know whether the arrangements I like will be played
>at a given milonga, and give me some return for the effort I put
>in to learn them in detail?
>The problem from the DJ's side:
>How do I help "educate" my particular community to a wider variety
>of "stylistically valid" music (pick your favorite style) without
>posing the problem of unfamiliar arrangements for leaders in milonga
>settings?
>Teachers, organizers and DJs ... because they frequently find themselves
>answering the beginner's question "What tango music should I buy?"
Brian's solution that all students be encouraged to buy the same music
used in classes and that the DJ will play at least 75 percent of it is a
really good idea if the teacher is the DJ. Implementing it on a
community-wide basis--by getting all the beginning teachers and DJs in the
community to agree to a standard--may be challenging but is worthy of
consideration.
A few ideas to build on Brian's: Tell the beginners to arrive at milongas
when the doors open, and the DJ will play a much higher percentage of the
beginning standard music early in the evening. Maybe 50 percent of the
music would come from the standardized list for the first hour or two. The
DJ can also use the early portion of the evening as an educational to
expand awareness of the music by creating tandas that have two tangos from
the standardized list and two by the same orchestra that are not from the
standardized list but are among the great tangos. That way the dancers
are incrementally introduced to the DJs longer playlist. During the first
hour or so the DJ would also make sure to stay with relatively simple
rhythms even when playing material that is not on the standardized list.
Organizing practicas and encouraging beginners to attend is also very
important in building a tango community. If provides them another
opportunity to work with music and their dancing in an informal atmosphere
before they have to face the somewhat more formal atmosphere of a milonga.
As Brian suggests, practicas are an opportunity to expose beginners to a
wider variety of music, but in the United States it is really the late
hours of a milonga when the dancers seem to enjoy the DJ introducing new
music that pushes the boundaries.
With best wishes for the New Year,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:55:49 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth - The Next Generation
Hey you guys!
Can you please keep it short in 2003?
For heaven's sake, fellas, I love to hear what you'all
have to say, but try to keep down on the verbage. Some
of the recent posts have been relentlessly long. After
THREE paragraphs (with about SEVENTEEN more to come)
of even the most fascinating discusssion, my attention
begins to wander.... Know what I mean?
Maybe ad infinitum discussions should be relegated to
private interchanges? :)
Luda
