908 Community Development
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:47:14 -0800
From: Andrew Allison <andrew@AALLISON.COM>
Subject: Community Development
Dear List,
Haven't we rather beaten the music aspect to death? I'd like to initiate
another community development thread, namely the importance of teaching
skills. First, I should disclose that I've only been dancing for 10 months.
However, in that time I've managed to go to Buenos Aires twice, spent a
week at Portland Tangofest, and attended at least a half-dozen other
workshops in addition to taking private lessons from several teachers. For
what it's worth, I've also been a student of Tai Chi for close to 20 years,
and teach it.
I would suggest that one of the major problems in community development is
retaining prospective leaders; that many instructors fail to recognize the
basics of successfully teaching them; and the result is that many beginning
leaders quit in frustration.
First and foremost, it's critical to enforce partner rotation in order to
ensure that the leaders dance with a broad cross-section of followers, and
hence learn to lead clearly. This is not as easy as it could be because of
the almost universal failure to enforce the line of dance with no
overtaking, which results in pseudo-rotation (and who hasn't seen dancers
move before the rotation to obtain the partner of his/her choice when it
occurs. Real rotation would also alleviate the gender imbalance problem.
Second, I would argue that since a follower should be able to follow a
clear lead from anybody who can provide it, the instructor's primary task
is to make sure that the leaders can do so.
Finally, it appears to me that many instructors come to a workshop with the
intention of "teaching" a certain number of steps, regardless of whether
they are actually learned, rather than ensuring that (almost) every leader
is capable of leading each step confidently before moving on to the next
one. I would submit that the only way an instructor can be certain that
their job is done is to see each leader execute the step with at least two
followers. A happy and tango-filled New Year to all! Andrew
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 02:18:44 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Community Development
Andrew,
I agree with your comments about the need to teach good leading skills
in order to retain new leaders. But I was most intrigued with your
mentioning your Tai Chi experience. Even with my own very limited experience
with Tai Chi, I can see some clear parallels in the techniques of intent,
grounding, and centering that are taught in Tai Chi and their direct
relevance to tango. I was hoping you would share your own observations on
those things from your wider experience.
Jay
----Original Message Follows----
From: Andrew Allison <andrew@AALLISON.COM>
Reply-To: Andrew Allison <andrew@AALLISON.COM>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Community Development
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 00:30:48 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Community Development
Andrew wrote:
"Second, I would argue that since a follower should be
able to follow a
clear lead from anybody who can provide it, the
instructor's primary task
is to make sure that the leaders can do so.
Finally, it appears to me that many instructors come
to a workshop with the
intention of "teaching" a certain number of steps,
regardless of whether
they are actually learned, rather than ensuring that
(almost) every leader
is capable of leading each step confidently before
moving on to the next
one. I would submit that the only way an instructor
can be certain that
their job is done is to see each leader execute the
step with at least two
followers..."
Bless your heart, Andrew, for saying this! WHY, WHY,
WHY do so few people teach men how to lead properly??
Where it's all about? Any woman can follow a good
lead. I just despair over dancing with wet noodle
leads. It feels like dancing with men who don't have
any backbone, so they can hold on to a woman like they
mean it.
Arrrgghh!!..... :)
Luda
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:39:18 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Community Development- "contra the wet noodle syndrome"
I know how you feel. However, the wet noodle syndrome needs to be grown out
of gradually. It is just, that some teachers never seem to point out the
necessity of this...
By the way, today I took a New Year's walk along a river in Tokyo. I watched
a man practising karate formations on the grass. Even though he did not look
like much of a fighter (or maybe he was too embarrassed, or just too sloppy,
to go full form in public), I noticed something interesting about his walk,
when he practised the forward approach (step, punch, step, punch, step,
punch, alternating legs and arms): he had his pelvis lowered about 2 inches
toward the ground, stood firmly on both legs, then slowly moved one leg
forward, keeping his foot close to the ground (maybe one cm above, just
brushing the grass near the roots, keeping both knees bent, accelerating the
front foot towards the end of the step, putting it down softly, then moving
the other foot, propelling himself forward faster on the hindleg from the
middle of the step, keeping his back straight, never loosing his balance or
giving up his groundedness...
Sound familiar ? Martial arts people have a definite edge over other
beginners in tango. Skiers do too, I assume. The rest need to be made aware
of the fact, that, permit my rudeness (slight bow, peering out
apologetically from behind lowered eyelashes), they usually do feel like wet
noodles.
Astrid
Luda wrote:
Any woman can follow a good
> lead. I just despair over dancing with wet noodle
> leads. It feels like dancing with men who don't have
> any backbone, so they can hold on to a woman like they
> mean it.
>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:40:30 +1100
From: Roger <rde@QDOS.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Community Development- "contra the wet noodle syndrome"
astrid wrote:
..
> Sound familiar ? Martial arts people have a definite edge over other
> beginners in tango. Skiers do too, I assume. The rest need to be made aware
I was still an active (male) ballet student when I took up jiu-jitsu
many years ago. I think that background had some practical advantages
(aside from entertaining my colleagues who were reduced to sniggering,
guffawing wrecks as they admired the delicately arched feet, in
mid-flight, any time I was thrown. :)
On first contact with tango, I was struck by a sense of deja vu at some
of the moves, positions and points of balance - so similar to those
involved in jiu-jitsu (although the aim was to take your 'partner' Off
balance) - which seemed to differ only in degree. So - I'd agree that a
background in martial arts should be a real plus. Tango should be
familiar turf.
Skiing though - I can't feel a connection - and I've never felt a
similarity. (Now that you've raised the notion, I'll look for it
though.)
cheers
rde
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:18:11 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Development
Luda wrote:
>WHY do so few people teach men how to lead properly??
Argentine tango really does not have a developed and widely used pedagogy.
Most of the older teachers had very little instruction that approximated
their own level of dancing. These older dancers developed their leading
and following skills through practice rather than instruction. They
understand how to dance in their bodies rather than their minds. Many of
the younger instructors learned from these older instructors, and by and
large the dancers to whom tango came easily--it was easily found in their
bodies.
>I just despair over dancing with wet noodle leads.
>It feels like dancing with men who don't have any
>backbone, so they can hold on to a woman like they
>mean it.
The wet noodle lead and the overly firm arm lead are both indicative of
people who do not really understand how to lead. Leading is done with the
movement of the torso
Astrid added:
>Martial arts people have a definite edge over other
>beginners in tango.
The martial arts to provide a basis for understanding movement, but I am
not sure how much they help with leading and following skills. I know
several people who are world class modern and ballet dancers who are
struggling with the lead and following aspects of tango.
With best regards for the New Year,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Sent by: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
<TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
01/02/2003 02:30 AM
Please respond to luda_r1
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
Subject: [TANGO-L] Community Development
Andrew wrote:
"Second, I would argue that since a follower should be
able to follow a
clear lead from anybody who can provide it, the
instructor's primary task
is to make sure that the leaders can do so.
Finally, it appears to me that many instructors come
to a workshop with the
intention of "teaching" a certain number of steps,
regardless of whether
they are actually learned, rather than ensuring that
(almost) every leader
is capable of leading each step confidently before
moving on to the next
one. I would submit that the only way an instructor
can be certain that
their job is done is to see each leader execute the
step with at least two
followers..."
Bless your heart, Andrew, for saying this! WHY, WHY,
Where it's all about? Any woman can follow a good
lead.
Arrrgghh!!..... :)
Luda
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:09:41 -0800
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Development
--- luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> WHY do so few people teach men how to lead
> properly??
The answer is this...
It's hard.
Indeed, group classes are already predominantly
devoted to teaching the lead. This is of necessity
due to the nature of the dance; it's led.
It's hard to lead properly and it requires work to
learn it. If few of your dance partners lead well, it
isn't due to a general ineptitude of teaching.
Although ideas abound for how to teach the lead ever
more effectively and good teachers can come up with
great ideas to get the lessons across, no matter what,
leading is still hard.
No matter the teaching method, leading tango is hard.
It just is, and it always will be.
Jai
=====
Usenet on Google, the Internet's home for easy and totally free discussion:
https://groups.google.com
Usenet Fast Start for Tango Posters
https://www.geocities.com/jaijeffryes/usenet.htm
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:41:44 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Community Development
Learning to lead & follow can be tricky. How much sense does it make for
beginners to try & learn, in classes, while dancing with each other?
Seems like everyone would pick up the dance faster if they could learn from
a gracious experienced counterpart...
Rick
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:51:57 -0900
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Community Development - teaching only to the men???
Andrew wrote:
"> Second, I would argue that since a follower should be able to follow
a
> clear lead from anybody who can provide it, the instructor's primary
task
> is to make sure that the leaders can do so."
The followers are able to follow a clear lead only if they have
sufficient skills/awareness to do so. Following is a developed skill
that requires good instruction and practice to master, and it's best to
get it started right away in beginning classes.
I've seen the results of a few teachers who only teach to the leaders,
and coming from my leader's perspective, it's not fun because the women
don't acquire the skills to follow well. Everyone has to learn
together, at all stages of the dance, from beginning to advanced. I
don't understand this "men only" viewpoint, and in my opinion it is not
a valid teaching strategy.
Furthermore, teach only to the men and the women in the class are
getting ripped off - they deserve to learn something as well. Ideally,
we all need to learn together.
Andrew touched on a point when he mentioned the instructors he's seen
are force-feeding steps to the students with no regard for technique,
etc. Therein lies the problem, because without proper technique,
musicality, and all the other elements that make up a good social dance,
the men aren't going to learn anything, nor are the women. Better study
with those instructors who understand how to teach social tango and who
know lead and follower's technique so everyone can grow together.
They're out there, and they're very busy in the communities that support
social dancing.
Dan
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:40:20 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Development
--- Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> ... How much sense does it make for beginners to try
& learn, in classes, while dancing with each other?
Seems like everyone would pick up the dance faster
if they could learn from a gracious experienced
counterpart...
No kidding! An in fact, they don't even have to be a
lot more experienced - just not struggling with every
single thing about the tango. I recently began
studying the lead, after having followed for a couple
of years, by taking a beginner's class. My partner
and I discussed whether he would join the class as a
follower. He finally said that he was interested in
learning to follow, but he had no interest whatsoever
in taking a class with leaders who were brand new.
And yes, he does dance with new followers all the
time, so it's not just a horror of having to deal with
folks who haven't learned to dance yet. He had
experienced beginning leaders when he was one (and
when I was complaining about them) and he felt it
would waste his time at best and teach him bad habits
at worst. On the occasions when we had too many
leaders in class and we had to work together I
entirely agreed with him - those guys were simply not
giving understandable leads, and there was no way on
earth someone could follow them except by ESP. Well,
that's not quite true: one of the guys did give verbal
leads, which I must admit were comprehensible. Every
time one of the new followers went to dance with them
she was getting really bad info about how the dance is
done.
I did not have a totally awful experience with the new
followers, I've got to admit - just with some of them.
There were some I just couldn't lead, no matter what I
tried. Now, I know that more experienced leaders
could communicate with them better than I could,
because my partner danced with them too - but the
ladies I failed time after time to lead to the cross,
for example, he also had trouble with. My contention
is that it helped neither me nor the women for us to
struggle together and practice failure. I'm not in a
position to know if it was very bad for them to dance
with me or not - it may have been. At least I am on
the beat myself, which put me ahead of some of the
guys. On the other hand, I am certainly not always
early enough to be on the beat for the follower - and
ladies, I apologize.
I have gotten the opportunity to lead more experienced
followers, and I found the time spent a lot more
useful than that with the beginners, in terms of
learning to lead. When the ladies who have been
following as long as I have ask me what I was trying
to lead, I _know_ where the problem is. And when I
finally set them down on the beat in a little ocho
cortado and they smile, I'm sure I got it.
I'm as sure as I can be that Bugs is right, and that
the most effective and pleasant way to learn to dance
is with partners who can dance - and that learning
with other beginners is unnecessarily slow and painful
(not to mention an unnatural way of learning to dance
socially, which reasonably occurs within an
established social group). It also leads to cliques
and divisions in the community, as people stick to the
folks they struggled through beginner classes with,
figuring that the known evil can be borne. If instead
we danced _across_ ability divisions, we would have a
crowd of beginners who progressed faster, and we would
integrate people into the community better. And we
might have those higher retention rates we were all
calling for a week ago.
So - how do we set it up so that new people dance with
folks who are not struggling as miserably as
themselves?
Happy New Year!
Marisa
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:07:04 -0800
From: Andrew Allison <andrew@AALLISON.COM>
Subject: Teaching & Community Development
Regarding the commentary in response to my post on the impact of teaching
on community development:
Roger wrote: "Skiing though - I can't feel a connection - and I've never
felt a similarity." Roger, next time you go skiing and want to turn, use
your center to turn your torso (imagine you are holding a large beach ball
in your arms, and simply move it to the side to which you wish to turn). I
think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the result (effortless turns).
Stephen's response to Luda missed two points: first, that it's not the way
that the instructor learns, but the way they teach that's important. For
example, I'm very analytical, i.e, need to really understand the step, but
one of the two best instructors I've ever had is older milonguero who
learned by watching. But, like my favorite ski instructor, he has the
ability (and, more importantly, the desire) to see where the problem is and
tell me how to fix it. Second (to both Stephen's and Frank's comments), a
clear lead is not a stiff lead. I can't speak to martial arts in general,
but the internal arts (Tai Chi and Chi Kung) can help leaders by
emphasizing being rooted (grounded), centered, and initiating movement from
ones center. Tai Chi is about being in contact with both your center and,
in its two-person version (Push Hands) that of an opponent. The awareness
of your partner's center and clear intention of a center-led lead
alleviates the problems to which Linda refers in her response to Frank.
Jai wrote : ". . . . If few of your dance partners lead well, it isn't due
to a general ineptitude of teaching." I obviously disagree.
Dan misconstrued ""the instructor's primary task is to make sure that the
leaders can do so [lead]." as "teaching only to men." Of course followers
have to be able to follow -- but follow what? Without a clear lead, the
follower is lost regardless of skill level. The point which I think Dan is
inadvertently making is that leading and following are quite different, and
need to be taught differently.
Finally, it was my hope in initiating this thread that we might arrive at
some consensus as to what constitutes good teaching and thereby improve the
general level of instruction, thus retaining more prospective leaders
within the community.
Regards to all, Andrew
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:58:38 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Teachers and Community Development
Marisa Holmes wrote:
>My partner ... finally said that he was interested in
>learning to follow, but he had no interest whatsoever
>in taking a class with leaders who were brand new.
I have had a similar experience dancing the follower's part with beginning
leaders. I felt absolutely brutalized and terrified. Interestingly, I
have not had this experinece dancing the follower's part with women who
new leaders had previously learned the follower's part. That may indicate
the wisdom of the traditional method of learning in which aspiring leaders
first learn the follower's part.
Andrew Allison wrote:
>Stephen's response to Luda missed two points
I cannot see the disagreement... except through the misinterpretation or
misrepresentation of my previous comments.
>[I]t's not the way that the instructor learns, but
>the way they teach that's important.
Agreed, but not all instructors develop their own pedagogy. Many simply
repeat the pedagogy with which they learned, or they know the movements in
their bodies and have long since forgotten how they learned.
Let's identify the four levels of competence as
1) Unconscious Incompetence
2) Conscious Incompetence
3) Conscious Competence
4) Uncconscious Competence
Dancing and teaching well actually call for different states of
consciousness. Dancing well and in the flow falls into the fourth
category--unconscious competence. One forgets the mechanics at a
conscious level and simply dances. Good teaching falls into the third
category--conscious competence. It requires paying attention to the
mechanics. I have seen many instructors teach one thing (that doesn't
work) and do another thing themselves (that does work).
(By the way, my previous comments were an observation/explanation about
how people teach rather than advocacy of how people should teach.)
>A clear lead is not a stiff lead.
Again agreed. As I previously wrote: Leading the follower's movements
requires a clarity of intent and
willingness to be present within oneself and for another. A wet noodle
cannot lead because it has no
intent. Neither can a dry noodle because it also has no intent, it is
simply stiff.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:49:21 -0800
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Development
How about .... offering newcomers a joint? For
example, most beginners struggle with the tango music.
Well, some studies suggest that incoming sensory
information, such as the auditory signals that
represent music, normally follow established and
familiar pathways as they travel from their source to
human consciousness. A friendly joint may interfere
with the normal routing of these sensations, forcing
the sensory data to find novel routes to consciousness
and thus be perceived in novel ways.
A joint may also help the "community developers"
themselves to see things for the first time as they
really are, things that they might otherwise fail to
notice. It is a fact that while younger smokers are
attending rock concerts, relatively older users are
becoming increasingly interested in other kinds of
music, particularly jazz and classical. So, why not
Tango?
Just a thought....
El Duke.
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:58:30 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Community Development
Marisa wrote:
> the most effective and pleasant way to learn to dance
> is with partners who can dance - and (that) learning
> with other beginners is unnecessarily slow and painful
If instead
> we danced _across_ ability divisions, we would have a
> crowd of beginners who progressed faster, and we would
> integrate people into the community better. And we
> might have those higher retention rates we were all
> calling for a week ago.
>
> So - how do we set it up so that new people dance with
> folks who are not struggling as miserably as
> themselves?
>
Steve replied:
I have had a similar experience dancing the follower's part with beginning
leaders. I felt absolutely brutalized and terrified.
This rings so true, and brings up a lot of memories, that I am slowly, in my
fourth year of tango (and 3,5 to 3 years away from the events) getting over
now.
I was lucky enough at the time to learn tango from scratch in private
lessons with a very good dancer (Milena chose him as a partner when he
returned to Argentina afterwards). This got me instantly addicted, and
helped me over all the beginner's hurdles which were painful nonetheless,
even with him. Like realising every so often, that I still know nothing,
that I am still a lousy dancer, and usually this realisation came right
after I thought I had finally "got it" now. But it also meant, that he had
just pushed me up to the next level.
Then I started going to milongas. At first, I was exhilarated, but I
remember the day when I felt like a finely tuned musical instrument that was
being abused by a brute, who had no sense whatsoever of what he was holding
there in his arms. My teacher had always been very sensitive to my body.
Dancing with him could hurt mentally (despairing at my own inability) but
not physically. And he did not force my feet into ochos while throwing me
off balance at the same time.
But worse, much worse than this, for me, were those men who liked to blame
everything on the follower. I knew that their lead was altering between
rough and off balance, and weak and incomprehensible, and, basically, was
fairly chaotic, and mostly limited to their arms, hands and elbows, while
occasionally knocking their knees into mine. Still, they blamed me and my
stupidity, lack of attention, stubbornness, or plain female
bloodymindedness, for not being able to accurately produce the move they
imagined they were leading. And no, they absolutely did not want to be told
what it really felt like to be led by them. (And how many tango students do
give because of this?)
These experiences were the ones that would have made me give up tango and
stay away from those milongas attended by the kind of men I had no business
with otherwise, had it not been for my teacher, and the knowledge, that real
tango can be totally different from that. (And how many tango students do
give because of this?)
Three years later I asked Jorge Torres during a lesson:"When a couple
argues, because a move is not working, how do you figure out, whose fault it
is ?" He answered:"It is always the man's fault."
So, after this long explanation, my point is: what is wrong with returning
to the old days, where the men trained with each other, before the new
leaders were let loose on the women ? And the women learned from men who
could already dance ? And where it was understood and taken for granted,
that no woman would be attracted to putting up with some clumsy beginner who
was manhandling and pushing and pulling her around ?
I know, what is wrong with this: there are not enough men, and way too many
women. The dynamics have been turned the other way round. A man, who is
called an intolerable oaf by one follower, has seven ladies waiting on the
bench to dance with him next, no matter what.
Still, I wish, men would not use this situation as an excuse not to improve
their leading skills.
And, teachers should definitely tell them this !! That would help us all.
Astrid
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 15:21:57 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Teaching & Community Development (on skiing)
Andrew wrote:
>
> Roger wrote: "Skiing though - I can't feel a connection - and I've never
> felt a similarity." Roger, next time you go skiing and want to turn, use
> your center to turn your torso (imagine you are holding a large beach ball
> in your arms, and simply move it to the side to which you wish to turn). I
> think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the result (effortless turns).
>
I have not skied for a few winters, but I remember this:
The first day I was taught to ski by some relatives many years ago,
everybody was surprised at how quickly I got into it, and that by the end of
the second day I could ski all the way downhill by myself without ever
falling. The reason was this: I had learned horse riding for years, and this
requires changes of direction accomplished by moving your pelvis and
shifting the weight of your body. Changing direction when skiiing is
basically the same. Now, as for the similarity to tango:
You walk forward keeping your feet on, or close to the ground ( on even
ground, not when going uphill), sliding your feet alternately along the
ground, keeping the knees slightly bent to flexibly support your body. Then
you launch yourself into the diagonal slope, and when you change direction
(to avoid another skier, or because of the formation of the snow), you first
turn your head to see where you are going, then you turn your torso, pushing
out your chest to add some force ("intention" is what counts), then you
quickly whip around your pelvis into the direction of your twisted upper
body, keeping your ankles and knees close together and slightly lifting up
your heels- turn accomplished. Then you do this into the other direction.
Get it, Roger ? What I am talking about, is doing ochos on the snow !
And any skier knows, that his upper body is the all powerful tool for
steering, and that the move of the upper body in a turn is followed by
moving the pelvis, and not the other way around.
Enjoy
Astrid
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:36:38 -0800
From: Erika Hilliard <hilliard@SHAW.CA>
Subject: TEACHING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT
Teachers do play an important role in helping to keep people interested in coming back to the tango community. The words that keep coming up in these discussions are technique, elements, details, style, posture, etc. I'd like to add another word: ATTITUDE !
So far, in my limited experience, I've only come across two sets of teachers that I would say have 100% positive attitude: Miriam Larici & Hugo Patyn, and Eduardo Saucedo. Their enthusiasm, kindness, patience are outstanding. They focus on what is going right, expand on these elements and also graciously comment on what is getting in the way. This kind of attitude has an enormous influence on one's desire to tough it out, in this oh so complex and wonderful dance.
I've also witnessed famous dancers/teachers, even mentioned on this website, whose attitude, for me, leaves something to be desired. During one workshop, for instance, one teacher said, " If you do this, you look stupid, if you do that, you look stupid, etc. etc." Another teacher said, " If you do this, people will laugh at you." This kind of admonishment is sure to intimidate a great number of the population who experience social anxiety, which is the fear of being scrutinized and judged poorly in any particular social situation. Another teacher, also famous, in one breath commented to me, " You're catching on fast, " and in the next, lifting her hands to her face, as if I had just committed the most offensive crime, " What on earth are you doing?" I'm old enough and passionate enough about dancing that I don't let it bother me much, but I can just imagine what this kind of comment might feel like for more tender hearts that are just beginning in tango.
Teachers, if you want bigger classes and if you want people to keep on coming back to the tango community, please remember that your attitude makes a difference. Positive attitude is like a warm glow that people gravitate towards while a critical or negative attitude is like a bucket of water that douses the fire. Let's have fun and keep those embers burning.
PS. The attitude of dancing partners also profoundly influences whether a person comes back or not. I loved what Jai said in his email: " Men who "tough it out" remember those who toughed it out with them." Bravo.
Cheers, from Erika in Vancouver, B.C.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:18:37 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Community Development
Over the past few years I have discussed with a number of people why they
have stopped dancing tango or are dancing tango less frequently. The
recent discussions on Tango-L encouraged me to be a bit more aggressive in
pursuing such information. Here some lists of reasons that people gave
that are composed mostly from memory.
Among more experienced dancers I have received the following responses:
My new boyfriend/girlfriend does not dance tango.
There are so many more women than men at milongas, so I do not get to
dance very much, and rarely it is with the men with whom I would really
like to dance.
There are so many more women than men that I am expected to dance all the
time, and not necessarily with the women with whom I would like to dance.
I grew tired of dancing memorized figures, but that is all anyone seems to
know.
I grew tired of being pulled into a close embrace with just anyone,
particularly people whose grooming/cleanliness/hygeine could be improved.
I realized that the ability to express myself in the dance was greatly
limited by the skills that my dance partners brought to the dance. Only a
few partners in my community dance well enough and in the style I like for
me to express myself. The others are boring.
It seems like many of my potential dance partners hurt me physically. When
I started being choosy, I realized how few people I really wanted to dance
with.
There are too many milongas and practicas, I can no longer go to one
knowing that everyone that I want to dance with will be there. They may
be going another night.
Among beginning dancers, I have received the following responses:
I just didn't connect with the music or the dance. Other activities are
more fun.
There weren't enough people (of the opposite sex who are my age).
After 4, 6, 10 weeks I didn't see any real progress in my learning. I
still wasn't really good enough to dance yet. I was able to dance salsa
after only a few lessons.
Only a few of the more experienced dancers would dance with me. The few
who did quickly showed me how little I really knew and I really felt left
out.
I do not want to be pulled into a close embrace by just anyone.
It seemed like we spent all of our time learning step patterns, but the
minute I tried to dance at a milonga, none of those step patterns worked.
With best wishes for 2003,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 09:09:38 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Learning Tango and Community Development
Yesterday afternoon I was sitting and talking at the Valentine Tango
Weekend here in Dallas to couple, who now travel to teach, about how they
started dancing tango about ten years ago. We had first met at the
Stanford Tango Week in 1994--where we shared the comaraderie of being
beginners at a tango week with no beginning classes. The other couple
told me that they had been taking lessons from an instructor in their
community for about a year before attending the Stanford Tango Week and
had arrived knowing hardly anything. We compared notes about how much
more Susan and I had been taught by Nora Dinzelbacher in our first 10-12
lessons before we went to that Stanford Tango Week. This got me thinking
about how much persistence was required from the other couple to become
tango dancers--and how much persistence was required of many people who
began learning tango 8-15 years ago.
I see several conflicting themes in the learning of tango and the
development of tango communities.
Those who pioneered tango communities in their cities had to be very
persistent to learn tango and bring it into their community. Infrequent
instruction and regular practice were the keys to learning. The
exploration and self-discovery that came from that practice resulted in a
relatively slow growth process that helped create dancers who have a great
depth of experience. That slow growth process fit the quality of dancing
and the relatively uncrowded milongas of a decade ago.
Although tango remains a dance for those who are peristent in their
willingness to learn, the way that is is taught and learned today seems to
be a much more rapid process than 8-15 years ago. Many local communities
have instructors who are capable of providing a quality instructional
program than was offered by those who toured a decade ago. At the same
time touring instruction has improved. It is not at all surprising to see
tango dancers emerge in 1-3 years who can dance every bit as well as it
took earlier generations to reach in 3-5 years. No longer do dancers take
more than a year before developing the skills necessary to navigate a
crowded milonga.
At the same time, more crowded milongas and a generally higher quality of
dancing demands more rapid development from newcomers than was required a
decade ago. In the early 1990s, fewer skills were demanded of those
attending milongas in North America. The milongas were less crowded, and
few people had polished skills. Interest and a warm body was almost
enough to be welcome. Today few of the newcomers are willing to wait a
year to develop these skills because without such skills, one is no longer
welcome at milongas.
With newcomers required to learn so quickly now if they want to dance at
milongas, the quality of the instruction and the openess of the community
to newcomers are the major factors (in addition to personal motivation)
that determine whether newcomers will stick with tango. In this regard,
the quality of instruction seems to be very uneven. I know instructors
who seem to have their students ready to attend their first milongas in as
few as 4-5 lessons, and I know instructors who have yet to graduate any
students to a milonga after courses of instruction that range up to 10-12
lessons.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:07:48 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Tango and Community Development
--- Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote:
> I know instructors
> who seem to have their students ready to attend their first
> milongas in as
> few as 4-5 lessons, and I know instructors who have yet to graduate
> any
> students to a milonga after courses of instruction that range up to
> 10-12 lessons.
It's my observation that those instructors whose students aren't
confident enough to come to a milonga after a lot of lessons, just
don't know how to have fun with tango (and possibly other stuff).
Milongas seem like a test rather than a social event. Earlier
comments about people's personalities coming through in their dance
apply to their teaching and to their events, as well, I think.
Happy shoveling to those in the snowbelt.
Trina
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.patangos.org/
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:24:31 EST
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Learning Tango and Community Development
A teacher who has his students dancing in less than 4 lessons, teaches their
students what they need to learn, not what the student wants to learn.
A teacher who's students can't dance after 10 lessons lets the student run
the class and dictate what the teacher will teach.
A teacher is the parent when the parent isn't around. If you, the parent is
cooking dinner and you child says I want candy for dinner, what are you going
to feed your child for dinner? Of coarse, you, the parent knows best and your
child eats beans.
If you the teacher has a student who wants to learn how to throw a lady up on
his knee and throw her off again, when you know very well this student can't
lead a lady safely around the dance floor without colliding into another
couple. What are you going to teach this student?
A good teacher must make decisions that will be unpopular with the student,
but in the long run this person will learn tango or any dance faster and
better. When you get one student on the right track the rest should follow.
When the student actually sees that they are improving, respect will be given
to the teacher
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:55:10 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Tango and Community Development
> A good teacher must make decisions that will be unpopular with the
student,
> but in the long run this person will learn tango or any dance faster and
> better.
These are noble and true words, however the teacher who makes too many
decisions unpopular with his/her students will find that the students might
just go away and there will be no long run to prove him or her right ;-)
Good students to all,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:53:44 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning Tango and Community Development
It is rather obvious that people who are learning tricks rather than
learning to dance tango will be slower at becoming comptetent to dance at
milongas, but I am not sure that all beginning courses that concentrate on
basic elements of tango are equal in preparing people to attend their
first milonga. I should have made more clear that I know some instructors
who teach basic elements and have their students ready to attend milongas
in 4-5 lessons and other instructors who teach basic elements and do not
have their students ready to attend milongas even if they are able to keep
them in class for 10-12 lessons.
I must say that I do not see instructors taking the role of like parents.
Yes, the instructor needs to make a judgement about which elements of
learning are most important for the beginning students, but that is the
limit. The students always decide whose classes they want to take. And
let's face it, everyone hates being treated like children--including
children. I think we most know a few instructors who have really
outstanding material to teach but who have a parental attitude that drives
the students away.
Great teaching of beginning tango dancers involves a number of elements:
conveying a sense of what tango offers, teaching the students an initial
competence in basic elements of the dance, creating an atmosphere that
facilitates self-discovery and self-mastery, and conveying a sense that
tango can be learned. The teachers whose teaching embraces all of these
elements frequently have the most students. The style of tango that is
being taught is irrelevant to determing what is great teaching.
Moreover, I think that as tango communities mature and grow, the demands
on the teachers to be great increase. The initial group of dancers in a
community were pioneers. Almost by definition they had to be people who
were willing to travel through uncharted waters and had to be persitent to
learn how to dance tango. Nonetheless, they did not have to dance very
well to attend milongas in their own community 8, 10, 15 years ago--where
floors were relatively empty and most everyone else was a beginner. A
fledgling dancer in an established community is often in the reverse
situation. Today's beginner do not have to travel through uncharted
waters, and are probably less willing to do so, but the standards of
dancing required to participate at the beginning are likely much higher
today than was required of the pioneers.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:06:53 -0800
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Tango and Community Development
--- Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote:
> Great teaching of beginning tango dancers involves a
> number of elements:
> conveying a sense of what tango offers, teaching the
> students an initial
> competence in basic elements of the dance, creating
> an atmosphere that
> facilitates self-discovery and self-mastery, and
> conveying a sense that
> tango can be learned.
Very well put. I was lucky enough here in Portland to
find teachers who did just that.
> waters, and are probably less willing to do so, but
> the standards of
> dancing required to participate at the beginning are
> likely much higher
> today than was required of the pioneers.
I disagree with this whole concept of "standards of
dancing required to participate". I dance to express
a part of myself. I think that every person has this
inate ability no matter what their level of dancing.
A person can come to a milonga for the very first
time, have one lesson, and as a follow if I can do
anything to make them feel the connection, and help to
feel the beat of the music then I find that they relax
and can enjoy themselves and this is what inspires
them to learn more. Community building is about good
dancers taking the time to share a part of themselves
which in turn will inspire the beginners. Beginning
dancers have enough to feel intimidated about, what
they need from the community is to feel welcome.
Warmest Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 15:23:46 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Community Development - Milongueros, Salons & Nuevos + Lumpers/Splitters
Dear Listeros:
Any ideas?
Mine are an electronic DJ with over 100 channels of music. Similar rhythmn on all channels & music of same length. Seperate adjoining dance floors for the 3 dancers.
Rick
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:49:21 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Non-Profit Organizations and U.S. Tango Community Development
Many tango communities in the United States have non-profit organizations
that participate in the organization and marketing of activities and help
develop the tango community. Not all of the non-profit organizations have
the same roles in their respective communities. To me this raises a
question as to what role(s) a non-profit organization ought to take in the
development of a tango community.
Please note that I am excluding from my comments non-profit organizations
that are primarily a vehicle for a single teacher/organizer or a small
group of teachers/organizers. I am thinking about non-profit
organizations that are attempting to serve/represent the entire community
in which they are located.
In thinking about this issue, I think a non-profit organization ought to
organize two types of activities: 1) Those activities which require the
cooperation of many individuals to be successful; and 2) those activities
for which non-profit status allows access to certain facilities or funding
from outside organizatons, such as cities.
Depending on the community, the former activities might include organizing
events that raise the awareness of tango in the community, other types of
marketing where non-profit status in helpful and hosting events that are
beyond the means of a single individual. The latter might include the use
of facilities that are only open to non-profit groups or securing funding
that is only available to non-profit arts groups. (The non-profit
organization in Dallas, Tango Argentino Dallas, has been particularly good
at securing the use of facilities and obtaining funding that are only
available to non-profit arts groups.)
The basic test for most activities organized by a non-profit organization
is whether private indivduals can/are successfully organizing the
activity. If private individuals can/are, the non-profit organization
ought to concentrate its efforts in other areas. Why? We must recognize
that all the members/officers/helpers/etc. of a non-profit are volunteers.
In such an organization, organizational capital is limited, and every
activity uses/dissipates organizational capital and reduces the ability of
the organization to complete other projects.
One interesting issue to consider in this context is whether the
non-profit group ought to organize/provide local instruction. I think the
answer depends upon whether the instruction would be otherwise available
in the community.
In rare cases, where a city city that has no or few regular instructors, a
non-profit organization might find it desirable to organize and provide
local instruction. Under a non-profit umbrella, a group of somewhat
accomplished dancers decide to pool their talents and knowledge to help
build the community. (I think most tango communities in the United States
have grown way past such status and have many established instructors.)
Even in those rare cases where it is desirable for the non-profit
organization to offer instruction, teaching is an activity that requires
and expends the most organizational capital if it is done well. Producing
dancers requires continuity of instruction and encouragement. In those
few cities where non-profit organizations have successfully provided
teaching over an extended period of time, the strain on the organizational
capital has gradually diminished the ability to organize other activities.
In some these cases, the strain has led to a splintering/dissolution of
the non-profit organization. In other cases, the non-profit organization
reshifted its focus to less straining activities.
In most communities, the teaching provided/sponsored by a non-profit
organization is less ambitious. It is for neophytes, and is typically
held in the hour prior to a milonga or practica. Although such one-time
teaching does not strain organizational capital very much, it does little
to foster the development of new tango dancers. Such teaching does not
facilitate a continuity of learning. Rather it encourages a group of
ill-prepared people to venture out on the floor in what is likely to prove
to be a hostile environment for them, and the newcomers are likely to find
the experience discouraging. In short, not enough organizational capital
is devoted to the activity to make it successful.
All these factors considered, it is probably best if non-profit
organizations do not offer classes in most U.S. tango communities. Most
communities will be better served if the organization concentrates on
organizing those activities that cannot be accomplished by the local
instructors and organizers. Does that include workshops? That is another
issue, but the short answer comes in looking at what can be accomplished
by the local instructors and organizers and in comparing the benefits to
the community to the costs to the organization.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:45:09 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Non-Profit Organizations and U.S. Tango Community Development
Stephen Brown makes good points/asks good questions. Maybe I can add
some insight based on Tango Houston's experience in the "non-profit
organization" world. (And sorry I've not yet made it up to Dallas yet,
Stephen; looking forward to meeting you and the community soon!)
Tango Houston was formed a little over two years ago with the main
purpose of expanding and integrating our small and fractured community.
We've had four to five teachers in town for quite some time; all are
somewhat obstinate (like a lot of good teachers!), and somewhat
contentious (like most of humanity!). They all have offered, on and off,
weekly milongas, where it turns out that mostly their own students are
the only ones attending. Currently, we always have two milongas
(teacher-sponsored), and every two weeks there are three, EACH WEEKEND!
Keep in mind that, unfortunately, our community is dismally small. We
have 20-30 die-hards. Maybe 30 more regulars. Maybe 30 more some-timers.
And a few more, here and there types; possibly 120 total. Period.
Shortly after Tango Houston formed, there was a period when milongas
were somewhat scarce, so we started a milonga/practica every Sunday
evening that has been well received. It's completely neutral, and we
attract attendees from all the different teachers, at a great venue.
Everybody has a great time, and it has brought the community a little
closer.
The integration part of our goal has taken some of the energy away from
our primary purpose, which is to expand the community by bringing in
interested newcomers and funneling them into the teaching organizations.
The main way we have concentrated on this so far is by performing and
demonstrating for organizations who request our assistance. Last night
six of our members performed for CarnaVe 2003, a Latin celebration.
We've performed for charitable organizations, and at cultural
expositions for corporations.
We also attempt to provide the opportunity for special events by
sponsoring large milongas several times a year with live music and door
prizes, etc. Just two weeks ago we held a milonga at a local club with
live music by a seven-piece orchestra, "Glovertango", that was very well
attended, by Houston standards. By the way, our door prizes are designed
to benefit the community; free lessons, and gift certificates to
establishments owned by active tangueros. Could the existing private
structure do this? (one of the questions that Stephen raised). Obviously
not terribly successfully, here. There has been very little success on
the part of instructors attracting students from other organizations,
especially with the number of opportunities exceeding the ability of our
limited population.
We also are building a resource library of videos and CD's available to
all (free for members/very nominal charge for non-members). We have
about 16 instructional videos and sixty CD's.
Our outlook on teaching? No way! Our bylaws state that anyone who earns
money from tango-related activities may not sit on our board of
directors. Yes, directors and members may offer help and advice at our
practica, but we do not teach, and the directors remain completely
neutral when asked about the quality of the lessons in town. When asked
who I recommend, I say to watch all the dancers, and when you see
something you like, ask them where they take lessons. Or sometimes I'll
say, take lessons from all the teachers to find out who you like, they
all have something to offer. We make a big effort to serve the entire
community, and hope that all the teachers realize benefits from our
efforts.
Workshops? Yes, we could think about sponsoring some, but that could be
viewed as competition by our local teachers, and we'd much rather that
they handle these sorts of functions.
One area we need to investigate more is the "hit and run" technique that
Stephen speaks of, but it's an effort locating the venues, and
coordinating efforts, and avoiding the Houston humidity!
A synopsis of our approach, so far; a view of our role in the community;
1) Expand the community
2) Integrate the community
3) Provide a resource library
4) Provide unique opportunities for special events
I probably err in comparing our community to that of Denver's; one of my
favorite places to visit, and such a great community they have!!
Interesting note; their "Tango Colorado" existed prior to any real
established local teachers, as I understand. Is this a key to their
obvious success in developing a beautiful, remarkable, integrated
community? If this is so, is Houston going to have to wait till all our
current teachers quit or move on, so that "Tango Houston" is the oldest
organization, and is seen as paramount? As the "guiding light"?
All ideas, suggestions, and input are invited, and if anyone out there
should desire information or advice, I'll be more than willing to
provide input based on our experience. We can help with advice on all
the "red-tape" stuff starting a non-profit, etc.
Warm regards to all, and hope to meet you soon! Thanks for all your
postings; I learn something from all!
Michael
www.tangohouston.org
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:24:16 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Non-Profit Organizations and U.S. Tango Community Development
I agree with Stephen that tango clubs should focus on activities that
individuals can't easily meet, such as grants, marketing tango, etc.
You can look at this in at least two different ways.
(1) What serves the community best"?
(2) Who has the best competitive advantage for which activities?
(1) Community service
The most useful activity for a club is to counter the natural
centrifugal or splitting energy in tango communities. It is so
important to have "neutral" terrain where ALL the teachers can meet,
bring their students, put out flyers.
The clubs should be actively "FOR" all the teachers (without quality
judgement), even those who choose not to participate due to
insecurity or studio policy or whatever. Community building does not
mean "Equally against all the teachers" or "Only promoting teachers
who are members".
(2) Competitive Advantage
Clubs really get into trouble when the start competing with teachers
& organizers. That contributes to splitting the community.
Producing a master workshop is probably the easiest "business" to get
into. Hire a teacher, rent a room, make up some flyers. But that
doesn't mean the Club should dominate the organizing. Choosing master
teachers by committee doesn't always result in a wide variety of
instruction.
Creating a milonga is also pretty easy to get into, depending perhaps
on community size. For its size Denver has relatively few milongas or
practices. This has strengthened the community because the serious
dancers pretty much go to the main events.
As Denver grows, it becomes more economically viable for an organizer
to produce an independent milonga. Even thought this splits the
energy (and money) of the community, if the community is large
enough, this might be natural and good. As Sarah comments about New
York, with so many milongas to choose from, a Darwinian competition
might actually lead to higher level milongas. May the organizer with
the best DJ or best location, or best attendance of good dancers win!
Teaching.
It is a truism from sales professionals that 20% of the teachers have
80% of the successful students. Retention rates for most teachers is
very low. If economic decision making were functioning, this might
mean that if a teacher doesn't produce many successful students, they
wouldn't stay in business.
As a community grows, more teachers put themselves forward, and
again, hopefully, success is rewarded with more success, and teachers
that don't produce students decide to make other contributions.
But, for the community club to teach is putting it in direct
competition with the teachers. There are difficult staffing decisions
to make:
- Choose only "A-Level" teachers",
- Pay them or not
- Use a "B-Level" teacher, or a teacher not known for success
- What style?
>In thinking about this issue, I think a non-profit organization ought to
>organize two types of activities: 1) Those activities which require the
>cooperation of many individuals to be successful; and 2) those activities
>for which non-profit status allows access to certain facilities or funding
>from outside organizatons, such as cities.
>...
>With best regards,
>Steve
>
>Stephen Brown
>Tango Argentino de Tejas
>https://www.tejastango.com/
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:37:22 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Non-Profit Organizations and U.S. Tango Community Development
Based on my direct observations in Dallas and more distant observations in
other cities, I agree with much of what Tom wrote:
>The most useful activity for a club is to counter the natural
>centrifugal or splitting energy in tango communities. It is so
>important to have "neutral" terrain where ALL the teachers can meet,
>bring their students, put out flyers.
...
>Clubs really get into trouble when the start competing with
>teachers & organizers. That contributes to splitting the community.
Most tango communities already suffer from splitting and splintering. This
is an inevitable consequence of growth. As new teachers and organizers
emerge with new classes, milongas and workshops with visiting instructors,
everyone is hoping for an increase in the total number of tango dancers in
the long run. The reality is to divide an already existing pool of
dancers in the short run. Whether the new instructors and organizers
contribute to the long-term growth of the community depends on their
strengths in recruiting and developing new dancers.
As the community grows, the splitting forces typically strengthen. More
teachers and organizers leads to further splitting. The San Francisco Bay
Area which once had one tango community, now has seven alone based on
geography--and several others based on style, age and teachers.
If we embrace the idea that non-profit tango organizations should pursue
those activities that require the cooperation of many individuals to be
successful, countering this splitting and splintering force through
general community building--such as promoting inclusivness, coordinating
information, and promoting a general awareness of tango within the
city--is the obvious response. In tending to unifying activities, the
non-profit organization is in a position to help the community gain the
benefits of new instructors and organizers while it minimizes the
consequent splitting and splintering of the community. Balancing these
two promotes community growth.
A non-profit organization in a community that takes a different approach
and organizes its own competing activities and/or promotes some form of
exclusiveness forfeits its ability to act as a unfying force. It becomes
like just another instructor or organizer who is contributing to the
splitting and splintering of the community. Without a force to counter
the splitting and splintering, community growth is slowed.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
