1165 "Complex" rhythmic elements
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:47:55 +0000
From: Russell Ranno <russellranno@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: "Complex" rhythmic elements
Stephen Brown wrote:
"This is an interesting idea worthy of more exploration. Many dancers
express the thump of the accented beat in tango, and others express the
double-time rhythms in tango, but few try to express other rhythmic
elements in the music. What if we dancers pursued and expressed some of
the more complex rhythmic elements in tango."
As a musician who has played both jazz and salsa music for some time I have
never understood what people describe as these "complex rhythmic elements in
tango". In classic tango music I have yet to come across tunes in 5/4 or
7/8, or the use of triplets or eighth note triplets against 4, etc. In
short, there are no polyrhythms or hemiolas. So last year, to check my
hunch, I asked the opinion of a person who is both an accomplished drummer
and tango dancer - Chicho. Indeed, he confirmed the above. To paraphrase,
he said that tango music is, in it's essence, a folk music and it's rhythmic
elements are very simple: based upon quarter notes and eighth notes (single
and double times), nothing fancy or complex.
Sorry Stephen, I don't get it. Can you tell us more about what you mean?
Russell
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:33:07 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: "Complex" rhythmic elements
>As a musician who has played both jazz and salsa music for some time I have
>never understood what people describe as these "complex rhythmic elements
>in tango". In classic tango music I have yet to come across tunes in 5/4 or
>7/8, or the use of triplets or eighth note triplets against 4, etc. In
>short, there are no polyrhythms or hemiolas. So last year, to check my
>hunch, I asked the opinion of a person who is both an accomplished drummer
>and tango dancer - Chicho. Indeed, he confirmed the above. To paraphrase,
>he said that tango music is, in it's essence, a folk music and it's rhythmic
>elements are very simple: based upon quarter notes and eighth notes (single
>and double times), nothing fancy or complex.
>
>Sorry Stephen, I don't get it. Can you tell us more about what you mean?
>
>Russell
Obviously tango is in 4, just as Salsa and most Jazz, so
time-signature isn't the issue. As dancers we do need the back-bone
of 1-2-3-4 (or 1-2-3 in waltz).
Complex to a dancer is different than complex to a musician. Our
bodies move slower than fingers on a keyboard or hands on a drum
head, or the many voices of a full orchestra. Plus we have to manage
the movements of two people, navigate a crowded floor, and maybe do
some intricate 8 step pattern.
Yes, danceable tangos aren't as rhythmically complex as modern Jazz
or Piazzolla, but Tango certainly uses more than a march-like
ONE-2-3-4. There are at least the following more complex rhythms:
- "Bump, ba-dump, Bump" of a milonga candomera,
- "Ba-dump, ba-dump, Bump" of the Habanera
- "3-3-2" used sparingly in early Troilo, and almost exclusively in Piazzolla.
- the "arrastre" or drag of the bandoneon where the notes are hit
BEFORE the beat, then the bellows is forced AT the beat.
- The Drematic Pause and the "banned" Corte, where a beat is simply dropped
A musician is also well-familiar with musical expression: dynamics,
energy, rhythm, phrasing, repetition, contrast, etc. These are
important to a dancer as well.
I would suggest that dance expression and musicality should come at
the beginner stage, rather than teaching just the 1-2-3-4 walk or a
complicated figure like the 8CB. Even a newcomer can manage simple
phrasing and half-time steps.
In fact learning the phrasing of tango is a huge confidence booster.
It is the KEY to understanding how to feel and move to the music.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:58:16 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: "Complex" rhythmic elements
Russell Ranno wrote:
>Stephen Brown wrote:
>"This is an interesting idea worthy of more exploration. Many dancers
>express the thump of the accented beat in tango, and others express the
>double-time rhythms in tango, but few try to express other rhythmic
>elements in the music. What if we dancers pursued and expressed some of
>the more complex rhythmic elements in tango."
>Sorry Stephen, I don't get it. Can you tell us more about what you mean?
Others have already offered many interesting and useful responses.
If we want to be analytical about it, we need to listen to tango music in
longer phrases rather than bar by bar. Listening in longer phrases, we
find shifts in the strength of the accents from phrase to phrase.
Listening this way, we may hear the rhythm of the rolling sea in Di
Sarli's Bahia Blanca. Throughout various tangos, we find phrasing that
suggests when we might want to stop, when we might want to dance with some
double-time steps, when we might want do dance three steps against two
beats.
But rather than thinking of it is an intellectual exercise for musicians
counting beats, I find it more interesting to listen and move to the
phrasing of the music. I like moving to Biagi on the piano with his odd
angular accents, to the powerfully developing beat of a Di Sarli
instrumental, and to the phrasing of a lyrical singer such as Beron with
Calo, Rufino with DiSarli or Fiorentino with Troilo, or a rhythmic singer
like Podesta with Calo, Castillo with Tanturi, Vargas with D'Agostino or
Fiorention with Troilo. I also like moving to the swirling violin in
Pugliese, and then moving onto another instrument as the violin falls
silent. Yes, these orchestras play with a beat, but they all do it a
little differently with variations that create an emotional depth that is
not accurately captured in music notation. It that sense, dancing
doggedly to the beat does little to express the music. In interpreting
the music through our dancing, we express the emotion of tango, and a
complexity of rhythmic elements that are not captured in notation and that
some trained musicians might regard as loose playing.
What if we went a farther, however? What is we listen to the pulse of
tango music, and take on the role of a percussionist playing with the
orchestra. We are no longer limited to the specific rhythmic accents that
are being played by the other instruments. We can add our own. At the
point, we are only limited by our taste of what fits with the music.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:54:15 -0500
From: Korey Ireland <korey@KODAIR.COM>
Subject: Re: "Complex" rhythmic elements
This topic has spawned some fascinating discussion! I'm always
delighted to hear dancers pontificating about music, and musicians
postulating about the dance, we have such similar goals and such
different ways of articulating them!
There is just way too much talk about hear, so I'll try to limit myself
to three ideas: 1) complex rhythms in the music, 2) teaching modalities
for tango musicianship, and 3) non-rhythmic (or extra-rhythmic) aspects
of musicality.
First, regarding the assertion that tango is rhythmically
simple...there's been much discussion and some fine examples of this
already, shifting accents, counter rhythms in different voices of the
orchestra, tempo changes, pauses, and while metric modulation or complex
time signatures are not a part of the tango tradition, there are several
examples of hemiola in traditional tangos/valses (contrary to Russel's
assertion). [Side note: for anyone who is interested, hemiola is a
musical term that refers to a rhythmic grouping that the accents evade
the natural accents of the time signature. Most generally its groupings
in a 3:2 ratio, a classic example would be a melody in a waltz that
emphizes the quarter note pulse (1,2,3, 1,2,3) accompanied by a half
note figure (1,-,3,-,2,-). this could also be done double time as you
hear in many arrangements of Palomita Blanca] A similar device is
masterfully employed in Pugliese's "Mariposa,"where the melody deftly
evades the accents of the meter in nearly constant syncopation.
(Caution, I'm using the word syncopation here in its musical sense -
rhythmic surprise, rather then its dance sense - faster step or
subdivision of the strong pulse). For anyone looking for a rhythmic
challenge in tango music, try dancing (or embellishing) the melody in
the last 2 choruses of "Mariposa" While the piano and bass keep the
strong beat on 1 and 3, the violins and later the bandoneons hammer out
this melody which is nearly always off the beat. The melodic accents
are strong, full of surprises, and really fun to dance!
Second, how do you teach musicality to dancers? I really like the
suggestions/examples in Eero's email. Clapping, or shifting weight are
fairly simple ways that most people can feel rhythm. I actually use
weight shifts on the strong beat as a device to help studio musicians
find tricky rhythms (ironic that "dancing" facilitates musicality in
musicians!?!). I'm also very interested in the suggestions of Tom and
others of trying to develop an awareness of phrasing and melodic
structure in tango music. This is more challenging for my students, and
I'd love to hear any suggestions...My own feeling is, that this is
helpful only when it is intuited, not analyzed. In the midst of the
dance its distracting to ponder..."hmmm this sounds like the second
repeat of the C section which means I should expect the recapitulation
of the initial melody in 8 bars...." I have a hard imagining that being
an enjoyable dance experience. But when dancers can feel and intuit the
phrasing of the music, I think it enriches and facilitates the dance,
rather then complicating it. So, a sense of phrasing, or the structural
"rhythm" of the song could be a big part of being a musical dancer, but
I think its something that most of us learn through lots of experience,
and exposure, and this is, I think, an interesting part of the
traditionalist argument for limiting the music in classes and milongas
to the standards, played by the classic bands. I guess, I'm hoping
theres a way to develop the intuition/musicality of my students so that
they can dance musically to music that they /haven't/ heared 100 times
before.
One more thought on teaching musicality: someone mentioned Pablo Alsan's
musicality talks as an example of the gap between the music perspective
and the dance perspective...I just wanted to say that I found Pablo's
perspective on tango music absolutely enlightening as a dancer.
Particularly his analysis of arrangement devices/textures common to
tango. I tend to simplify a bit for my students, but his idea of moving
in different ways for marcato, legatto, or syncopa, textures is a
brilliant short cut to dancing in a very musical way. Granted, it would
be lovely to have some follow-up from a dance perspective, but thats our
job, not Pablo's. This brings me to the third (and I promiss, final)
theme...
Musicality is more then rhythm. As dancers, we can get so focussed on
when to move, that we lose sight of how to move. Music is more then
rhythm, even percussion music has tone, dynamic, phrasing and accents.
The same rhythm played on different instruments feels different, and
could potentially dance different. The same rhythm articulated
differently (legato - smooth connected notes, vs. marcato - heavy marked
rhythm, or staccato - sharp, short, spiky accents) suggests a very
different quality of motion. Rather then be the drummer in the tango
band, I'd like to have a dance that can express the tone, intensity, and
feeling of tango music, not just the rhythm. I'd like the music to be
in our whole bodies, not just between the soles of my partners feet and
the floor. If I had to pick an instrument, I'd want to be a bandoneon,
the expressive range of articulation and the shift from rhymic
accompaniment, to lyrical melody or pyrotechnic variation would make for
very exciting dances.
Now, allow me to anticipate the reply: "thats all well and good for
those lucky tango dancers who happen to have a background in music, but
most 'beginners' are so overwhelmed with figuring out the left and right
feet that rhythm is all they can hold on to". I believe very strongly,
that our students are capable of meeting our expectations. If we expect
them to be overwhealmed with quick, quick, slow, they will be
overwhealmed. If we expect them to be able to move expressively, they
will find expressive movement. I did a workshop a couple weeks ago for
a group of dancers who had never danced agentine tango. We spent the
whole time walking and changing weight with different /feelings/. (I
was lucky to have a wonderful band (Tango Lorca
<https://www.tangolorca.com>) to help with the class and we had prepared
exerpts from their repertory which had distinct moods - sad, angry,
sneaky, playful, and so forth) The interesting thing to me, was the
dancing that followed the class -- it was expressive, playful, emotive,
and simple, in short, it was very musical. Which leads me to believe
there is great value in focussing on /how/ we move, not just when and
where. There are a number of teachers who do this beautifully, I'm
particularly influenced by Brigitta Winkler
<https://www.brigittatango.de/>, Eric Jorissen <https://www.elcorte.com/>,
Rebecca Shulman <https://www.dance-manhattan.com/BioShulman.htm>, but to
some extent, this seems to be an underlying (though often overlooked)
theme of most great dancers/teachers. Why then do our discussions of
musicality invariably focus on timing and rhythm? Maybe we should
listen more intently to both the music, and our instructors?
For those of you interested in or confused by the musical terms
referenced frequently on this list, check out this very handy on-line
music dictionary <https://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/>.
Thanks Stephen for a delightful thread.
Many musical dances to you all!
Korey Ireland
www.ko-arts.com
www.kodair.com
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:28:27 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: "Complex" rhythmic elements
Salute to Korey: Great article!
>I'm also very interested in the suggestions of ...trying to develop an
>awareness of phrasing and melodic structure in tango music.
.... how about asking the person sing out the tune?
Many tunes carries a reasonable melody, and the basic neccessity for one to
take breaths may make the singer realize where the phase starts and ends.
By singing it outloud, they also realize that the same melodic phrases are
repeated and varied which opens door to understanding the compositional
structure. By immitating the phrase, the singer may notice the articulation
(legato vs. staccato etc.).
Many ppl learn foreign languages that way....
It is said that not until the person can vocalize his/her knowledge in
his/her own means, will that person genuinely master the knowledge.
BTW: About feeling, how many students out there understand the verses of the
tunes that are sung? That may create another layer of appreciation that
could evoke the feeling of dance.
BB (Chicago)
>From: Korey Ireland <korey@KODAIR.COM>
>Reply-To: korey@kodair.com
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] "Complex" rhythmic elements
>Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:54:15 -0500
>
>This topic has spawned some fascinating discussion! I'm always
>delighted to hear dancers pontificating about music, and musicians
>postulating about the dance, we have such similar goals and such
>different ways of articulating them!
>There is just way too much talk about hear, so I'll try to limit myself
>to three ideas: 1) complex rhythms in the music, 2) teaching modalities
>for tango musicianship, and 3) non-rhythmic (or extra-rhythmic) aspects
>of musicality.
>First, regarding the assertion that tango is rhythmically
>simple...there's been much discussion and some fine examples of this
>already, shifting accents, counter rhythms in different voices of the
>orchestra, tempo changes, pauses, and while metric modulation or complex
>time signatures are not a part of the tango tradition, there are several
>examples of hemiola in traditional tangos/valses (contrary to Russel's
>assertion). [Side note: for anyone who is interested, hemiola is a
>musical term that refers to a rhythmic grouping that the accents evade
>the natural accents of the time signature. Most generally its groupings
>in a 3:2 ratio, a classic example would be a melody in a waltz that
>emphizes the quarter note pulse (1,2,3, 1,2,3) accompanied by a half
>note figure (1,-,3,-,2,-). this could also be done double time as you
>hear in many arrangements of Palomita Blanca] A similar device is
>masterfully employed in Pugliese's "Mariposa,"where the melody deftly
>evades the accents of the meter in nearly constant syncopation.
>(Caution, I'm using the word syncopation here in its musical sense -
>rhythmic surprise, rather then its dance sense - faster step or
>subdivision of the strong pulse). For anyone looking for a rhythmic
>challenge in tango music, try dancing (or embellishing) the melody in
>the last 2 choruses of "Mariposa" While the piano and bass keep the
>strong beat on 1 and 3, the violins and later the bandoneons hammer out
>this melody which is nearly always off the beat. The melodic accents
>are strong, full of surprises, and really fun to dance!
>Second, how do you teach musicality to dancers? I really like the
>suggestions/examples in Eero's email. Clapping, or shifting weight are
>fairly simple ways that most people can feel rhythm. I actually use
>weight shifts on the strong beat as a device to help studio musicians
>find tricky rhythms (ironic that "dancing" facilitates musicality in
>musicians!?!). I'm also very interested in the suggestions of Tom and
>others of trying to develop an awareness of phrasing and melodic
>structure in tango music. This is more challenging for my students, and
>I'd love to hear any suggestions...My own feeling is, that this is
>helpful only when it is intuited, not analyzed. In the midst of the
>dance its distracting to ponder..."hmmm this sounds like the second
>repeat of the C section which means I should expect the recapitulation
>of the initial melody in 8 bars...." I have a hard imagining that being
>an enjoyable dance experience. But when dancers can feel and intuit the
>phrasing of the music, I think it enriches and facilitates the dance,
>rather then complicating it. So, a sense of phrasing, or the structural
>"rhythm" of the song could be a big part of being a musical dancer, but
>I think its something that most of us learn through lots of experience,
>and exposure, and this is, I think, an interesting part of the
>traditionalist argument for limiting the music in classes and milongas
>to the standards, played by the classic bands. I guess, I'm hoping
>theres a way to develop the intuition/musicality of my students so that
>they can dance musically to music that they /haven't/ heared 100 times
>before.
>One more thought on teaching musicality: someone mentioned Pablo Alsan's
>musicality talks as an example of the gap between the music perspective
>and the dance perspective...I just wanted to say that I found Pablo's
>perspective on tango music absolutely enlightening as a dancer.
>Particularly his analysis of arrangement devices/textures common to
>tango. I tend to simplify a bit for my students, but his idea of moving
>in different ways for marcato, legatto, or syncopa, textures is a
>brilliant short cut to dancing in a very musical way. Granted, it would
>be lovely to have some follow-up from a dance perspective, but thats our
>job, not Pablo's. This brings me to the third (and I promiss, final)
>theme...
>Musicality is more then rhythm. As dancers, we can get so focussed on
>when to move, that we lose sight of how to move. Music is more then
>rhythm, even percussion music has tone, dynamic, phrasing and accents.
>The same rhythm played on different instruments feels different, and
>could potentially dance different. The same rhythm articulated
>differently (legato - smooth connected notes, vs. marcato - heavy marked
>rhythm, or staccato - sharp, short, spiky accents) suggests a very
>different quality of motion. Rather then be the drummer in the tango
>band, I'd like to have a dance that can express the tone, intensity, and
>feeling of tango music, not just the rhythm. I'd like the music to be
>in our whole bodies, not just between the soles of my partners feet and
>the floor. If I had to pick an instrument, I'd want to be a bandoneon,
>the expressive range of articulation and the shift from rhymic
>accompaniment, to lyrical melody or pyrotechnic variation would make for
>very exciting dances.
>Now, allow me to anticipate the reply: "thats all well and good for
>those lucky tango dancers who happen to have a background in music, but
>most 'beginners' are so overwhelmed with figuring out the left and right
>feet that rhythm is all they can hold on to". I believe very strongly,
>that our students are capable of meeting our expectations. If we expect
>them to be overwhealmed with quick, quick, slow, they will be
>overwhealmed. If we expect them to be able to move expressively, they
>will find expressive movement. I did a workshop a couple weeks ago for
>a group of dancers who had never danced agentine tango. We spent the
>whole time walking and changing weight with different /feelings/. (I
>was lucky to have a wonderful band (Tango Lorca
><https://www.tangolorca.com>) to help with the class and we had prepared
>exerpts from their repertory which had distinct moods - sad, angry,
>sneaky, playful, and so forth) The interesting thing to me, was the
>dancing that followed the class -- it was expressive, playful, emotive,
>and simple, in short, it was very musical. Which leads me to believe
>there is great value in focussing on /how/ we move, not just when and
>where. There are a number of teachers who do this beautifully, I'm
>particularly influenced by Brigitta Winkler
><https://www.brigittatango.de/>, Eric Jorissen <https://www.elcorte.com/>,
>Rebecca Shulman <https://www.dance-manhattan.com/BioShulman.htm>, but to
>some extent, this seems to be an underlying (though often overlooked)
>theme of most great dancers/teachers. Why then do our discussions of
>musicality invariably focus on timing and rhythm? Maybe we should
>listen more intently to both the music, and our instructors?
>For those of you interested in or confused by the musical terms
>referenced frequently on this list, check out this very handy on-line
>music dictionary <https://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/>.
>
>Thanks Stephen for a delightful thread.
>Many musical dances to you all!
>Korey Ireland
>
>www.ko-arts.com
>www.kodair.com
