3626 Conversations with "Deep Tango": The "Lost Close-Embrace Style" of Tete and Maria
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:52:52 +0200
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Conversations with "Deep Tango": The "Lost Close-Embrace Style" of Tete and Maria
Dear List,
In the midst of our recent intercontinental travels, I ran across a source
I'll currently identify for now only as "Deep Tango" ;) ;) He's been
around, he knows a lot. Trust me.
The conversation turned to how many close-embrace followers seem to have a
relatively restricted set of options presented them by their leaders, more
than would be required by the constraints of many varieties of
close-embrace. I wondered whether "Deep Tango" agreed with this, and how he
thought it came about.
"I agree, women don't have nearly as much fun as they could - but that's in
part because what you see a lot of these days is teachers following Tete's
teaching after he left Maria and started teaching with Sylvia. Maria was an
extremely excellent dancer, with long, flowing, gloriously feminine
responses to Tete's lead in close-embrace. Sylvia was never able to match
Maria's ability to follow Tete in this respect."
"After she stopped working with Tete, Maria tried to recreate this styling
with Cacho Dante, but she couldn't replicate with Cacho how Tete led her to
do these things...Cacho's style was much more "tango quadrado", angular and
rectilinear."
"I was working with Tete when the only people studying with him were Susana,
Cacho and me. It's really unfortunate that Maria's styling and influence
has been lost to the women."
Just some food for thought,
All the best,
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:14:30 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <obscurebardo@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Conversations with "Deep Tango": The "Lost Close-Embrace Style" of Tete and Maria
Brian,
Your post touches on an area I've been pondering lately; the differing
satisfactions, needs, expressions, or reasons people dance tango.
Looking for a way to relate these differences I find myself putting
them on a continuum. I don't know if this continuum is well modeled by
a line, a plane, a space, or some n dimensional space but I'll start
with the simplest case of a linear continuum though I think eventually
a better model would use more dimensions.
One end of the continuum could be labeled "fun", "play" or "elaborate
visual presentation" and the other end "deep feeling", "meditative",
perhaps "trance" or "transcendent".
The notion of continuum provides for different focus of individuals as
well as differing focus for an individual at different times. The
continuum also promotes understanding and tolerance.
My point of departure is that people don't seek the same experience
from dance even though they are at a dance and dancing to the same
music. Misunderstanding and disappointment arise if we assume others
are seeking in the dance the same things we are.
I think the diversity in the unity of tango is one of the factors of
its growing world wide popularity. The many facets of tango offer
appeals to different personalities. Many people do seek "fun" in
dance. Swing and salsa as well as square dance offer fun also. Other
people seek a way to experience the depth of feeling in music with a
partner. This is not so active "fun" as a more movement based dancing
with lots of boleos, ganchos, etc. It focuses more on the embrace, the
walk, the breath, the heart. It offers a savoring of a rich depth and
nuance of experience and feeling. I'm not describing a binary conflict
but a continuum that we all can move along as individuals. Sometimes
moving closer to one end or the other as our mood or partnering takes
us.
My point is that we be careful not to assume only one end of the
continuum. Fun is good but it is not the only reason or even primary
reason some of us dance. Fun is also very subjective. I suspect I'll
never understand why some people have "fun" playing golf for example,
but more people do seem to find fun in trying to knock a little ball
into a hole in the ground than in dancing tango. For myself I rarely
am interested in dancing tango for fun, but that is a description of
my self not a prescription for how anyone else should relate to tango.
"It's really unfortunate that Maria's styling and influence has been
lost to the women." I find this statement agreeable as reflecting a
loss of a choice. But many choices remain and they may be the best
choices for some dancers even though Maria's styling would be
preferred by others. Finding our way through the wealth of tango
styles to what fits us best is part of the adventure of tango, part of
the adventure of life.
I'll end this by asking if there exists any video of Maria dancing with Tete?
Jonathan Thornton
On 7/19/05, Brian Dunn <brian@danceoftheheart.com> wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> In the midst of our recent intercontinental travels, I ran across a source
> I'll currently identify for now only as "Deep Tango" ;) ;) He's been
> around, he knows a lot. Trust me.
>
> The conversation turned to how many close-embrace followers seem to have a
> relatively restricted set of options presented them by their leaders, more
> than would be required by the constraints of many varieties of
> close-embrace. I wondered whether "Deep Tango" agreed with this, and how he
> thought it came about.
>
> "I agree, women don't have nearly as much fun as they could - but that's in
> part because what you see a lot of these days is teachers following Tete's
> teaching after he left Maria and started teaching with Sylvia. Maria was an
> extremely excellent dancer, with long, flowing, gloriously feminine
> responses to Tete's lead in close-embrace. Sylvia was never able to match
> Maria's ability to follow Tete in this respect."
>
> "After she stopped working with Tete, Maria tried to recreate this styling
> with Cacho Dante, but she couldn't replicate with Cacho how Tete led her to
> do these things...Cacho's style was much more "tango quadrado", angular and
> rectilinear."
>
> "I was working with Tete when the only people studying with him were Susana,
> Cacho and me. It's really unfortunate that Maria's styling and influence
> has been lost to the women."
>
> Just some food for thought,
>
> All the best,
> Dance of the Heart
> Boulder, Colorado USA
> www.danceoftheheart.com
>
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:27:04 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Conversations with "Deep Tango": The "Lost Close-Embrace Style" of Tete and Maria
I do not understand why "elaborate visual presentation" and "deep feeling"
have to be on the opposite ends of the "continuum".
For me it comes from the same roots: good connection, confidence in yourself
and the partner, and knowledge of movements. I do not see any contradiction.
Haven't we seen an example just recently?
What about "follow each other" concept, Rose?
One great lady once said to me - good tango requires incredible openness.
And that is what many people are afraid to do.
You say exactly the same thing.
I understand it in the way that a partner dances for his partner, not for
himself.
And at the same time I think that good connection is required for openness
to happen. Not openness to achieve a good connection. Connection is a
channel through which trust is built, and without trust it is difficult to
achieve openness.
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:47:05 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <obscurebardo@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Conversations with "Deep Tango": The "Lost Close-Embrace Style" of Tete and Maria
On 7/19/05, Christopher L. Everett <ceverett@ceverett.com> wrote:
> Finally I would add "touch" to the list. As Robert Hauk says,
> "Tango is the ultimate revenge of the nerds" and a lot of men
> get into tango because it gives them a means to approach women
> otherwise beyond their reach. Certainly was a reason I started,
> and my experienced in the last few months has reinforced that
> viewpoint.
Christopher,
I very much like the word touch. You've provided a label for me to
begin an exploration I've wanted to do for years but couldn't figure
out how to make the distinction. I'm not sure yet if I can express
this but I'm hoping to hear from others on this also.
There are the large motor movements of the dance, for example taking a
step, or doing a boleo. There are also macro elements like posture and
balance. What I want to find a way to talk about is the micro elements
of expressiveness and I think the rubric of touch may be the way to do
this.
The sensations of music provide kinesthetic analogues or synaesthesia
and hopefully serves as the basis for initiating movements in the
dance. The large complex leg plays of sacadas, gancho, volcados etc is
a major area of tango an area that is a major weakness of mine as I
lack the requisite athletic facility.
There is another aspect of the kinesthetics of moving to music that
falls at the other end of the scale. This is the very small nuanced
fine motor responses that can be very expressive of feeling. I think
"touch" may be a very good way to address this. Touch can be a very
expressive nuanced felt interaction between people on a fine motor
scale. Some people seem to have a limited heavy touch and there are a
few who are master poets of touch.
I once danced with a woman who was new to tango. She didn't even know
the cross. We just walked. But she felt the music, she lived in the
embrace and had the most exquisite sensitive fine scale responses to
the music and our dance. Dancing with her was one of the most
satisfying experiences I've ever had. Her dance though technically
extremely limited was one of the richest experiences because of her
natural non verbal expressiveness with touch and the embrace.
I don't recall reading any discussions of touch in dance until
Christopher mentioned in his post. Yet for myself the fine motor
expressiveness and breath are the most powerful experiences of the
music and dancing with a partner who is responsive to and expressive
with touch is far richer an experience than dancing with a partner
with well developed large motor dance skills but who downplays or
perhaps ignores touch and the embrace except as required for technical
execution.
I would especially like to hear women's viewpoints on this as well as
the men on the list.
Jonathan Thornton
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:36:08 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Conversations with "Deep Tango": The "Lost Close-Embrace Style" of Tete and Maria
Jonathan Thornton wrote:
>On 7/19/05, Christopher L. Everett <ceverett@ceverett.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Finally I would add "touch" to the list. As Robert Hauk says,
>>"Tango is the ultimate revenge of the nerds" and a lot of men
>>get into tango because it gives them a means to approach women
>>otherwise beyond their reach. Certainly was a reason I started,
>>and my experienced in the last few months has reinforced that
>>viewpoint.
>>
>>
>Christopher,
>
>I very much like the word touch. You've provided a label for me to
>begin an exploration I've wanted to do for years but couldn't figure
>out how to make the distinction. I'm not sure yet if I can express
>this but I'm hoping to hear from others on this also.
>
>
Hopefully, list members can differentiate between "touch" as aesthetic
appreciation of how a woman responds to a lead, and touch as a mammalian
imperative.
In the snippet that Jonathan quotes above I clearly wrote in terms of
touch in the second sense. I would add that the aesthetic aspect,
while we can certainly examine it alone, exists partly because of and
intensifies the other aspect.
I believe that as human beings, we can't arbitrarily separate existence
as mammals and primates from existence as intelligent beings, in that
intelligence (as I see it) exists to improve our success as organisms,
ie survival and extending our sphere of influence.
For myself, I enjoy very grounded women with a strong axis the most.
It feels like a 2-ton safe door so finely balanced on frictionless
hinges, it closes with a brush of the finger tips.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
