2110 ?-count basic
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:08:33 EST
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: ?-count basic
Philip Seyer wrote:
"This way, you never need to walk against the line of dance. He changes
weight on every step in the "academic" version of this 10 count basic.
One disadvantage is that the pattern doesn't match musical phrasing as well
as an 8 count basic."
Using an 8 - count basic or a 10 - count basic ( and how they fit in the
music phrasing ) is really very relative when dealing with the music. You could
just as well dance a 6 - count basic. It isn't always necessary to begin and end
figures within the set musical structure or phrasing, either instrumental or
vocal. Perhaps for a performance and choreography but on a busy social dance
floor, navigation and music combine into something more complex and subtle. It
is better to not be too rigid about using that pattern. It is only a framework
for people to begin constructing a foundation for many other figures. It is
important to learn it as a beginning but in reality you will use it less and
less as you learn more. It is meant to be broken down and reassembled.
Not dancing to the musical phrasing is a little more sophisticated. By the
time you master that you probably won't be using a simple 8, 6,10, 9, 7, or
whatever basic. As you learn things like pauses and other moves you dictate it's
structure anyway.
I start to the side sometimes; I start to the inside sometimes; I start back
sometimes; I start with a molinete in place sometimes; I start with a rock
step then a resolution sometimes; I pause a lot; instead of stepping back at the
resolution, I go forward after changing weight; etc. etc. As a rule, beginning
to the side is more or less classic salon tango and I usually dance that way
but it really doesn't matter, just be concerned about the quality of your
dancing. You can be very elegant with a basic count figure if you allow it to be
something flexible and organic.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:48:50 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: ?-count basic
>Philip Seyer wrote:
>"...
>One disadvantage is that the pattern doesn't match musical phrasing as well
>as an 8 count basic."
>
>Charles responded:
>Using an 8 - count basic or a 10 - count basic ( and how they fit in the
>music phrasing ) is really very relative when dealing with the
>music. You could
>just as well dance a 6 - count basic. It isn't always necessary to
>begin and end
>figures within the set musical structure or phrasing, either instrumental or
>vocal. Perhaps for a performance and choreography but on a busy social dance
>...
>Cheers,
>Charles
So are you advocating NOT dancing to the music? That beginners should
not bother trying to hear the phrasing because the phrasing is
irrelevant? That on a busy social dance floor the phrasing is even
LESS important?
I would strongly argue the opposite. Musical dancing begins with
rhythm, and begins with hearing and moving with energy according to
the phrasing. Dancing to the melody is a bit more difficult, but a
beginner CAN very easily hear the beat and phrasing, even if they
don't yet hear the melody very well.
When I look around the typical milonga in the US, I see the
consequences of this lack of attention to the phrasing. Many people
are on the beat, but few of them are on the music. So many dancers
move with the same emphasis and energy to all
steps....walk-walk-walk-walk-walking, woodenly like a monotone
sentence.
The phrasing of virtually all tangos, milongas and waltzes is 4+4=8
count phrases. This is NOT a hard concept to teach...but using random
count basic fails your students.
The traditional 8-count basic may fit the 8-count phrase (how many
teachers actually focus on matching the phrase?) but it fails
students for a different reason: it is much harder to break up a
memorized sequence than to assemble 2 or 4-count sequences.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:32:33 EST
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: re ?-count basic
Philip Seyer wrote:
>One disadvantage is that the pattern doesn't match musical phrasing as well
>as an 8 count basic.<
I wrote:
>It isn't always necessary to
>begin and end
>figures within the set musical structure or phrasing, either instrumental or
>vocal. Perhaps for a performance and choreography but on a busy social
dance...<
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>So are you advocating NOT dancing to the music? That beginners should
not bother trying to hear the phrasing because the phrasing is
irrelevant? That on a busy social dance floor the phrasing is even
LESS important?<
I believe "relative" and "irrelevant" are two different words. I never said
irrelevant nor to not dance to the music. I'm referring to making a connection
between the number of steps in a figure (like any of the basic ones) and the 8
count phrases in a song. The fact that the basic has at times 8 counts and a
musical phrase has eight counts doesn't mean they should fit together when
dancing. You can be in the middle of a figure when a phrase ends. Besides,
learning to hear the phrasing in a song is not as simple as one thinks for
beginners, at least in my teaching experience. If anything is irrelevant though, it is
the number of steps in the basic. Tying it in to the musical phrasing is
misleading and confusing because it implies that the figures should begin and end
with the phrases. A crowded floor doesn't give one the freedom to always do
structured steps and think about ending at certain places. It often is avoiding
other dancers and reconstructing your steps to fit into a constantly changing
floor space.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:59:48 -0800
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: re ?-count basic
I need to jump in here for a moment and hope I don't kill this string (which
seems to be the usual thing).
I do teach the walk to the cross (how ever many steps it takes to complete
the movement) to beginners, intermediate and/or advanced dancers. This is
something that was taught to me, I find it is still very useful as a
teaching tool and in continuing to develop my understanding of the dance.
This is something I have seen many teachers I have a lot of respect for
teach generally get new information in the way it is taught by them.
IMHO; It is simple and gets so much information across to a student (and not
just steps either), as a teacher I find it an incredible teaching tool and
will continue to use it and develop it.
Do I think it is the only thing out there or that I rely only on this, no.
It is only one small aspect of the tools I use.
My two cents and out to dance for the evening.
Take care all.
David~
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:33 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] re ?-count basic
Philip Seyer wrote:
>One disadvantage is that the pattern doesn't match musical phrasing as well
>as an 8 count basic.<
I wrote:
>It isn't always necessary to
>begin and end
>figures within the set musical structure or phrasing, either instrumental
or
>vocal. Perhaps for a performance and choreography but on a busy social
dance...<
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>So are you advocating NOT dancing to the music? That beginners should
not bother trying to hear the phrasing because the phrasing is
irrelevant? That on a busy social dance floor the phrasing is even
LESS important?<
I believe "relative" and "irrelevant" are two different words. I never said
irrelevant nor to not dance to the music. I'm referring to making a
connection
between the number of steps in a figure (like any of the basic ones) and the
8
count phrases in a song. The fact that the basic has at times 8 counts and a
musical phrase has eight counts doesn't mean they should fit together when
dancing. You can be in the middle of a figure when a phrase ends. Besides,
learning to hear the phrasing in a song is not as simple as one thinks for
beginners, at least in my teaching experience. If anything is irrelevant
though, it is
the number of steps in the basic. Tying it in to the musical phrasing is
misleading and confusing because it implies that the figures should begin
and end
with the phrases. A crowded floor doesn't give one the freedom to always do
structured steps and think about ending at certain places. It often is
avoiding
other dancers and reconstructing your steps to fit into a constantly
changing
floor space.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 06:46:24 EST
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: re ?-count basic
I suspect that if a man can lead a lady without using his hands (e.g. by her
dancing with HER hands on his shoulders, but with no other hand contact), so
that (a) she crosses when he indicates but (b) she does NOT cross when he does
not indicate (a harder task for the leader), then he is well on the way to
becoming a tango dancer. Certainly, we do exercises of this kind quite regularly,
both with beginners and, as a reminder, with more advanced dancers.
I think that for many other moves (especially ochos with embellishments, but
also simple walking), there is scope for the lady to indicate that she wishes
to take over la marca for a while (and we teach this). However, I suspect that
the cross is not one of those moves. It is a lady's move, but should not come
as a surprise to the man. If it does, then he is not indicating fully.
At least, I suspect so.
Laurie
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:31:24 -0800
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: re ?-count basic
--- LGMoseley@AOL.COM wrote:
> I suspect that if a man can lead a lady without
> using his hands (e.g. by her
> dancing with HER hands on his shoulders, but with no
> other hand contact), so
> that (a) she crosses when he indicates but (b) she
> does NOT cross when he does
> not indicate (a harder task for the leader), then he
> is well on the way to
> becoming a tango dancer.
Last year I danced with Milena Plebs at an outdoor
milonga in Cleveland. I thought I could lead my wife
well in tango, but Milena made me laugh when she did
NOT do anything that I did NOT lead... It was a
refreshing and enlightening experience.
