411 "Danceable Tango"
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:49:46 -0800
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: "Danceable Tango"
The recent discussion of tango music that is suitable for dancing,
along with the discussion of non-tango music being danceable has brought
up some intriguing issues. With tango music in the state of confusion
that it is in these post-Piazzolla times, the questions of who is to
say what is and what is not tango, and what turns movement into tangohave
become problematic and paradoxical. How is it that we have tango music
that cannot be or shouldn t be danced to, and yet we also have music
that tango dancers find compelling to dance to and which is not acceptable
as tango music?
While I prefer the dance-oriented music from the forties such as
Calo, Rodriguez and Troilo, I am willing to say that it is possible to
dance the tango to anything that possesses the pre-requisite of feeling
that inspires the soul to dance, and encourages a spirit of free-improvisation.
With the exception of some very modern music, all music has a regular
meter, which an astute dancer can recognize, and in which can find some
danceable rhythm. I have seen beautiful tango danced to non-tango
music, and I have also seen ugly abominations that I would be embarrassed
to call tango danced to the most beautiful of tango music. Dance to
that which pleases you, and for all of our sakes don t get onto the floor
and dance to that which doesn t.
I think it is important to note that over the last century the tango,
in its authentic, improvisational form has been proliferated and adopted
by various cultures. In the current situation, it would be fatal to
discount the world community as merely imitating the authentic Argentine
Tango, which arguably would have died without European, (among other
external sources of) patronage throughout its history.
As for the music: if it inspires the melancholy, passion, and vitality
of the soul of tango in a way that stimulates the feet and body into
movement, who can argue its authenticity?
Musicians are constantly challenging us to change our perceptions
of melody, tonality and atonality, and even the tango has evolved tremendously
over the last 150 years. Do I personally like the current trend of tango
music for dancing? No but that is all the more reason to seek possible
alternatives within contemporary music for tango-like passion and drive.
As dancers we can only support the musicians that create music that
is to our liking, and those among us dancers who are also musicians should
come forward and make a statement about what the music means to them.
I personally have distaste for most contemporary tango music and
the non-tango songs played at local milongas, but I also have distaste
for many authentic tango bands that others enjoy dancing to. I have
decided to leave it at that, rather than try to claim that something
is or is not tango. The same goes for style, I find that some people
have a gaudy, tacky way of dancing. I will not say that they are not
authentically dancing the tango, for there are as many different styles
within the Argentine community as in the tango community abroad. It
is simply a matter of personal aesthetics. I d say it could be reduced
to a critique of technique, but there are beautifully soulful dancers
who have not danced long, and therefore they may still be crude, and
there are also extremely skilled dancers devoid of passion.
Tango is different to every dancer, and therefore so is tango music,
though skilled dancers will group towards one norm or the other, there
is, and will always be different currents and schools of evolution. Frankly,
the more diverse they are the better. If anything, the tango communities
largest threat to date is its own refusal to change. In many ways, the
more inbreeding and homogenization we participate in, the weaker the
tango becomes as an art, and the closer in comes to its demise.
--
clayton beach
akumushi@onebox.com - email
(866) 248-7670 x7206 - voicemail/fax
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:39:55 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: "Danceable Tango"
If I understand him correctly, Clayton makes a reasonable case for dancing
tango to other music. I must confess to having a few reservations. With
so much tango music available: golden era, early concert era, late concert
era and post Piazzolian music, I do not really see the advantage of dancing
tango steps to non-tango music... For me, it is all the emotions and and
passion of the tango music that gives me the energy to dance long after my
feet and legs have grown tired.
Clayton also seems to imply that if the tango community does not accept
ideas such as dancing to non-tango music and other such ideas it will
suffer...
>If anything, the tango communities largest threat to date is its
>own refusal to change. In many ways, the more inbreeding and
>homogenization we participate in, the weaker the tango becomes
>as an art, and the closer in comes to its demise.
The strange thing is that I see the tango community constantly changing.
Ten years ago, very people outside of Argentina dance what is now called
milonguero-style tango. Several new styles of tango have emerged in the
past decade--nuevo and the relatively new liquid tango. (For a description
of various styles, see <https://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html>) This
completely ignores the highly individualistic styles of many dancers.
The advent of some of the newer styles has helped dancers take advantage of
dancing to newer music... At the asme time, a number of new tango
orchestras, and recognizing the opportunity to play and record for dancers
some of these orchestras have fused post-Piazzollian sensibilities with
rhythms that help support social dancing.
In all art forms, innovations occur, but they are more likely created by
people who are considered to be at the core of the art form rather than the
edges. (See <https://www.tejastango.com/defin_param.html>.) Just because
the tango community does not embrace all outside ideas does not mean that
is insular or becoming more homogenous... And although tango has a
universal appeal that has carried it outside of Argentina and Uruguay,
those of us who grew up outside those countries do face some challenges in
learning tango, just as Frenchmen face challenges in learning to play
blues. (See <https://www.tejastango.com/outside_milieu.html>.)
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:23:55 -0800
From: Thorn <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: "Danceable Tango"
Clayton Beach's post brings up many points that make sense to me. The
history of humans is a history of ever changing language, art, culture.
This is an expression of vitality. There is no controversy over for example
the minuet. The minuet is a historical dance. (I should note there may
be academic controvery that I'm unaware of :) If tango becomes a museum
piece then if can be defined and fixed; if it lives it will change.
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:44:45 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: "Danceable Tango"
> Clayton Beach's post brings up many points that make sense to me. The
> history of humans is a history of ever changing language, art, culture.
> This is an expression of vitality. If tango becomes a museum
> piece then if can be defined and fixed; if it lives it will change.
>
This reminds me of a review I read about a Jorge Torres and Carina Piazza
performance: "Yes, but is it tango ?"
Naturally, everybody has his own way to experience the dance, feel the
music, the way he/she wants to move. On the other hand, some people who
propose dancing tango to swing, blues, opera, or whatever, anything that has
a beat, and saying it is (more ?) fun, will certainly be dancing, but are
they dancing tango ?
Astrid
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:45:06 -0800
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: "Danceable Tango"
First of all I seem to be having some embarrassing problems configuring my
email client. My first post came under the signature of Thorn which is
only part of my name. Please bear with me as I get this sorted out. I do
find this discussion of great interest. And now to the subject at hand ...
On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, astrid wrote:
> > This is an expression of vitality. If tango becomes a museum
> > piece then if can be defined and fixed; if it lives it will change.
> >
> "Yes, but is it tango ?"
> Naturally, everybody has his own way to experience the dance, feel the
> music, the way he/she wants to move. On the other hand, some people who
> propose dancing tango to swing, blues, opera, or whatever, anything that has
> a beat, and saying it is (more ?) fun, will certainly be dancing, but are
> they dancing tango ?
>
> Astrid
Astrid,
my first impulse is to say I agree that they are dancing but not
tango. But that the developing traditions of tango which arose in the
mingling of other traditions in Argentina will have contributed to that
dancing that is no longer tango but some sort of descendent of tango.
Speaking of swing we can see in the United States that the Lindy Hop in a
sense could be said to have begat East Coast Swing, and West Coast Swing,
and other dances in a lineage. Some explanations of the development of
tango I have read seem to say that the tango developed from the milonga
and perhaps the candombe? So, hoping not to offend anyone, but here is
another example of evolution. The parent continues as well as the
offspring.
I have responded to this thread, even subscribing to Tango-L after months
of reading it from the archive because there is much here that I am trying
to sort out for myself.
I am an American of the baby boomer generation and listening to music has
been important to me all my life. I have been dancing tango since 1997 and
will only claim to no longer be an absolute beginner. I like tango music
but to be only honest it does not affect me, touch me near as deeply as my
favorite music from my favorite musician songwriters, all of whom write
and sing in English the only language I am fluent in. I think this is
because of the language but also because of the culture, and perhaps the
passage of time, that I'm not so sure of, but all these factors place me
at a greater distance from the tango music when compared to the music of
say Emmy Lou Harris, Rickie Lee Jones, Van Morrison, Eric Clapton, etc.
I do not want to dance tango to this music, but when I dance to this music
my dancing uses some of the approaches or techniques I learned in dancing
tango. The dancing one step at a time, often the embrace, cross and
parallel systems and ochos. It was at a workshop with Daniel Trenner that
I first heard of this. Daniel did not call his dancing to swing music
tango, but rather "swango", not a very pretty word. I just call it
dancing.
I'm learning how easy it is to be misunderstood on usenet, so I am going
to be careful in this list. I am in no way saying tango should be
discontinued or that other music should be shoe horned into tango, but
dances like languages cannot be kept in some pristine and pure state, they
and music will mingle, information, genes, memes whatever will be
exchanged and new forms will emerge and evolve. This is the history of the
universe.
For me to say that I feel more deeply the music of say for example Van
Morrison is in no way to disrespect or slight the music of tango, it is
just a statement of my musical development in my culture. That I feel I
have found a way to dance expressively to the music that I deeply feel
using techniques I learned is in no way an attempt to change tango.
All of this is really just a preface, a way to set my interest in tango, I
am not going to explore this non tango music at length in this forum. I
am interested in the lessons I am learning about dance from tango, and
wish to explore some questions I have about different experiences dancers
have of the music and of moving to it. But I've gone on too long for one
post as it is.
Peace, Jonathan
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:51:43 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: "Danceable Tango"
>If I understand him correctly, Clayton makes a reasonable case for dancing
>tango to other music. I must confess to having a few reservations. With
>so much tango music available: golden era, early concert era, late concert
>era and post Piazzolian music, I do not really see the advantage of dancing
>tango steps to non-tango music... For me, it is all the emotions and and
>passion of the tango music that gives me the energy to dance long after my
>feet and legs have grown tired.
Some people DANCE but do not TANGO.
Some people TANGO but do not DANCE.
Can you imagine dancing swing to John Coltrane? Can you imagine
dancing African to Blues? Can you imagine dancing ballroom tango to
D'Arienzo at an Argentine Tango dance?
To be a little more subtle with the metaphors: How about dancing
lindy-style swing to 1950s rock & roll? Or West Coast Swing to 1930s
big band swing?
You can do it, but it just doesn't FEEL right.
Why is it that the Argentine milonguero sits down when the music
doesn't call his feet to dance, the Lindy Hopper gets up when the
band really SWINGs, or the West Coast Swing DJ puts on blues of a
certain tempo and feeling?
Tango vocabulary and form permits a wide range of rhythm, movement
and dynamic variation. So Piazzolla is certainly danceable using
"real" tango vocabulary. For an exhibition, you can bring in ganchos
from show tango, lifts from ballet, Graham contractions from modern,
spins from swing...but it stops being tango at some point and becomes
something else.
>In all art forms, innovations occur, but they are more likely created by
>people who are considered to be at the core of the art form rather than the
>edges. (See <https://www.tejastango.com/defin_param.html>.) Just because
>the tango community does not embrace all outside ideas does not mean that
>is insular or becoming more homogenous... And although tango has a
>universal appeal that has carried it outside of Argentina and Uruguay,
>those of us who grew up outside those countries do face some challenges in
>learning tango, just as Frenchmen face challenges in learning to play
>blues. (See <https://www.tejastango.com/outside_milieu.html>.)
>
>With best regards,
>Steve (de Tejas)
Why is it that NEWCOMERS of only 4 or 6 years of tango,
(non-Argentines for the most part?) feel free to make up a new
"tango" when they haven't been to Buenos Aires or even learned tango
as it is danced in Buenos Aires. Even Gustavo & his circle, who have
been so innovative in stretching the boundaries of tango, take pains
to teach and work (really, really hard) at doing tango in the
traditional sense before taking it somewhere else.
It is a free world; you can do whatever you like, but why not learn
the authentic form first, before you go changing it into something
else.
Imagine this restless, iconoclast psychology at work in Ballet. You
take a year of classes. You teach a bunch of other people for a year
in "your" style of ballet. You decide to form your own company. Now
you are a "professional". You put out advertisements for a show.
Would anyone from the ballet world call it Ballet? Maybe, but they'd
be laughing at you, not taking you seriously.
Yes, I know ballet can be pretty stuffy (as if tango isn't), but most
people KNOW what ballet is, and don't "pretend" to do some nuevo
ballet, unless they've been through the form and out the other side.
Modern dance developed as a rejection of ballet, and modern has been
very flexible in bringing in movements from African and elsewhere.
This created something new...not ballet done differently.
Seriously: Get to know the "real" tango music and dance, i.e. WHAT
THEY ACTUALLY PLAY and HOW THEY ACTUALLY DANCE IN ARGENTINA, before
you go changing it to something else.
Tango dancing is inextricably tied to the music, and those of us
outside argentina, need to learn both in order to understand the
whole. It isn't like non-argentines can't learn authentic tango, but
we have to make a special effort to really plant roots into the
source before we can claim to understand it, let alone change it...
That already happened once with ballroom tango.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:28:17 +0100
From: "Kohlhaas, Bernhard" <bernhard.kohlhaas@SAP.COM>
Subject: Re: "Danceable Tango"
> From: Tom Stermitz [mailto:Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 10:52 PM
> Subject: Re: "Danceable Tango"
[...]
> Why is it that NEWCOMERS of only 4 or 6 years of tango,
> (non-Argentines for the most part?) feel free to make up a new
> "tango" when they haven't been to Buenos Aires or even learned tango
> as it is danced in Buenos Aires. Even Gustavo & his circle, who have
> been so innovative in stretching the boundaries of tango, take pains
> to teach and work (really, really hard) at doing tango in the
> traditional sense before taking it somewhere else.
Being a newcomer of only 2 years of tango, I understand and wholly
embrace the need for doing tango in the traditional sense, but is
Bs.As. these days really a place to experience that and if so, is
it the only place? (I don't know, since I haven't been there.)
> It is a free world; you can do whatever you like, but why not learn
> the authentic form first, before you go changing it into something
> else.
Agreed, but again is Bs.As. the place to learn the authentic form?
[...]
> Seriously: Get to know the "real" tango music and dance, i.e. WHAT
> THEY ACTUALLY PLAY and HOW THEY ACTUALLY DANCE IN ARGENTINA, before
> you go changing it to something else.
I remember a comment from one of my favorite tango DJs here in the San
Francisco
Bay Area, who went to Bs. As. and seemed less than impressed with the music
at the various milongas he visited.
> Tango dancing is inextricably tied to the music, and those of us
> outside argentina, need to learn both in order to understand the
> whole. It isn't like non-argentines can't learn authentic tango, but
> we have to make a special effort to really plant roots into the
> source before we can claim to understand it, let alone change it...
I agree completely with that.
As far as I am concerned learning the music (for dancing)
starts with music from the Golden Age, NOT with tango music for
concert/show audiences or with Piazzolla.
Bernhard
Mountain View, CA
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:51:04 -0700
From: Madhav Apte <mapte@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: "Danceable Tango"
Hi all:
Tom Stermitz wrote:
> Some people DANCE but do not TANGO.
>
> Some people TANGO but do not DANCE.
I think it is tempting to say such a thing, where you can switch dance/tango and
tango/dance sentence and have it be true. However, I think the second statement
doesn't hold. If someone is REALLY tango-ing, they are surely dancing, no?
Maybe it is just my opinion. (Let's not start a discussion of what _really
tango-ing_ means !;-)) ).
> Why is it that NEWCOMERS of only 4 or 6 years of tango,
> (non-Argentines for the most part?) feel free to make up a new
> "tango" when they haven't been to Buenos Aires or even learned tango
> as it is danced in Buenos Aires. Even Gustavo & his circle, who have
> been so innovative in stretching the boundaries of tango, take pains
> to teach and work (really, really hard) at doing tango in the
> traditional sense before taking it somewhere else.
For the same reason that someone who has been dancing tango only a short time,
and arguably not well, decides to teach tango. I am sure we have all seen that
happen. But it is a free country, and it is up to the consumer to examine what
is being offered as a product and make a personal decision. Although this sort
of things still bothers me sometimes, it is getting to be less so. I call it my
personal improvement ;-)).
I am going to keep my mouth shut about "authentic tango" and go dance instead.
Best regards,
Madhav
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 05:30:07 -0800
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: "Danceable Tango"
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Stephen Brown wrote:
> I do not
> really see the advantage of dancing tango steps to non-tango music...
> For me, it is all the emotions and and passion of the tango music that
> gives me the energy to dance long after my feet and legs have grown
> tired.
Stephen, for you there may be no advantage whatsoever and there is no
reason to do that which doesn't move you. I think your statement will be
true for the largest segment of the tango dancing community. But speaking
of myself it simply doesn't work for me personally.
Tonight, I was listening to a favorite piece of mine, Sophie B. Hawkins
cover of Bob Dylan's "I want you." I was in college when the album that
song was on came out, "Blonde on Blonde", a great album. Not only do I
love the way Sophie sings that song, but that song has decades of
resonance for me. I find in that music the emotion and passion that I
believe you refer to, and it has a relevance to me that is immediate,
whereas tango is in some ways further away, a reach, not quite a fit.
In some interviews with milongueros I recognize their feelings for the
tango, for music they have listened to from their youth, songs rich in
multiple associations, layered with meaning. I recognize my own feelings
for the music of Dylan and others I grew up loving, but I can't feel the
tango the way they do, because I didn't grow up with it, I don't
understand the lyrics, even if I learned Spanish, I wouldn't understand
many of the associations, contexts, the time, place, and cultural milieu
that they refer to.
This may sound paradoxical, maybe oxymoronic, or something, but in a way I
can more closely experience the milonguero's feeling when they dance to
tangos when I dance to the music that is deep in my heart, guts, and
marrow. I so respect their attitude towards tango, but it's not an
experience I can replicate. I can be inspired by their devotion to their
music not by trying to adopt tango music, but by finding the well springs
of dance in the music that most deeply touches me. This I do, not because
I think it's fun, but because it is the music that has deep personal
meaning for me.
My purpose here is to increase my understanding of the
possibilities of social dance and to get a clearer notion of the limits,
for I have come to suspect that what I am looking for is not to be found
in this form. I have no interest in changing how any one dances or what
dances they choose to do, or how they choose to dance. My experience is
that tango took me closer to a source within myself than the
ballroom/swing/latin dances that I first took classes in. But, I am coming
up against a limit for myself. I value what I have learned from tango. I
value it very much, but I know that I haven't found my dance with it, just
important lessons.
To me music is more important than dance. I have listened to music
for decades, but only danced for 5 years. Dance to me is a way to explore,
express, participate in music I love, and tango dancers seem more in tune
with this approach than dancers of other dances I have spoken with. Yet, I
have not found what I seek in tango, nor do I think I will. I have been a
guest for 5 years and deeply value the lessons I learned, but the time is
drawing near when I will leave tango. Yet, I feel there is a bit more for
me to learn before I say a truly grateful farewell to this dance which has
given me important inspiration. And I am seeking to learn how to talk
about this. I welcome private email also.
I don't wish to upset anyone nor dismiss tango, I just know that I
can't find a home here, for in the end the music though it has its beauty
is not my music, it is a beautiful woman, but she is not my true love. For
those of you who have found in tango your true home, your true love, my
blessing on you, and I would linger awhile longer and learn a bit more
from you before I depart.
peace, Jonathan Thornton
