589 Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:47:22 -0700
From: Robert Dodier <robert_dodier@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
Hello all,
There's been a good bit of discussion on tango-l
lately about playing music from modern orchestras
at a milonga. The problem seems to be that such
music is commonly not quite intended for dancing.
Here's another angle -- another form of marginal
music would be music intended for dancing, but not
tango. What do you-all think about dancing tango
to non-tango music?
Personally I find big band jazz, of the Duke
Ellington or Count Basie style, to be a lot closer
in feeling to tango dance music than is modern
tango music intended for listening. There's other
kinds as well -- I have a tape of samba and bossa
nova (A.C. Jobim, "The Composer Plays"; very
refined!) which I would love to try dancing to
sometime. Also, a friend remarked once that he likes
dancing tango to hip hop -- I can see where he's
coming from.
To me, tango music is what you play to dance tango --
so it really could be any form. What do you think?
Best,
Robert Dodier
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:30:48 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
Robert Dodier wrote:
>What do you-all think about dancing tango
>to non-tango music?
>Personally I find big band jazz, of the Duke
>Ellington or Count Basie style, to be a lot closer
>in feeling to tango dance music than is modern
>tango music intended for listening.
I find the swing beat of big band jazz music does not make for very good
tango dancing. It completely changes the feel of the dance for me. I
would prefer to dance tango to some modern tangos--not all of them--than to
dance tango to big band jazz.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:51:31 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
--- Robert Dodier <robert_dodier@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> To me, tango music is what you play to dance tango
> --
> so it really could be any form. What do you think?
Of course, you can do anything you want! However, in
my opinion, some music has a rhythmic feel that
doesn't match up to the smooth style of tango.
For example, swing music has, well, swing! Swing does
not simply mean that it's "rhythmic" and you like it.
"Swing" is a technical musical term used by jazz
musicians to describe a specific rhythmic feel they
apply. There are varying degrees of swing.
The bouncing in swing dancing aligns with the rhythmic
character of swing music. I prefer not to bounce in
tango, although there are those who do it. The rhythm
of tango doesn't swing. This is not a pejorative
description of tango. It's a technical musical
distinction. The rhythm of tango is "straight" as
contrasted with "swinging".
If hearing a certain rhythm provokes a certain dancing
feel, well go ahead! However, when I see people
dancing tango to a swing rhythm it looks more like a
bouncing kind of foxtrot than tango to me. On the
other hand, if they dance it smoothly, the movement
doesn't seem connected to the music and I wonder what
is inspiring the dancers to dance. I realize ballroom
foxtrot is danced smoothly even though the music is
swing music. I don't know why that looks right to me,
but tango doesn't seem right with swing music. Maybe
it's because tango is so grounded and ballroom dances
can have rise and fall.
The grounded, smooth nature of tango tends to fit
physically with straight rhythm played at a walking
tempo. Matching up to another rhythm makes it look to
me like something other than tango. Keeping the tango
look in such a case doesn't appear as if the movement
is matching the music.
I think funkier rhythmic feels sometimes seem as if
they might fit with the character of milonga.
Jai
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:29:28 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
>Of course, you can do anything you want! However, in
>my opinion, some music has a rhythmic feel that
>doesn't match up to the smooth style of tango.
For me swing music puts a lilt into tango that isn't quite right. It
is missing some of the core, important things that makes tango Tango.
For example the hesitation or "moment of engaging" before the "1"
beat, is critical for tango, while foxtrot or swing feels too "light"
and cheerful, dropping you too easily to the "1" beat.
Maybe blues music or West Coast Swing has more of the grounded,
chewiness of tango.
A great illustration of the contrast is on the Fresedo/Ray CD from
Tango Argentino. Play the truly excerable foxtrot "Isla de Capri"
(track 10), and then the good, (if gentle) track 9 (I forget what it
is).
This exercise cured my ears of wanting to dance tango to swing music.
>The bouncing in swing dancing aligns with the rhythmic
>character of swing music. I prefer not to bounce in
>tango, although there are those who do it. The rhythm
>of tango doesn't swing. This is not a pejorative
>description of tango. It's a technical musical
>distinction. The rhythm of tango is "straight" as
>contrasted with "swinging".
I have to disagree...a lot.
Tango definitely has a syncopated feel, a rhythm and a drive that is
not the straight 1-2-3-4 of a march. It has a lot of formal
syncopation (as a musician might use the term), as well as a more
informal definition (as a dancer might use it.)
The buuuump-bi-bump-bump of the Habanera, becames much more
rhythmically interesting as tango added in folk and african rhythms.
If you can, get to one of Pablo Aslan's "Tango Music for Tango
Dancers"; it is an excellent and entertaining presentation.
But to immediately point out that tango isn't primarily a slow,
smooth dance, just listen to the classics of the 1930s & 40s:
Listen to D'Arienzo's "El Flete" (from soundtrack of The Tango
Lesson). Listen to Tanturri/Campos "Igual que un Bandoneon", or Calo.
Or Biagi, who occasionally drops out completely like an elevator
shaft.
You will hear both the walking tempo and the more staccato half-beats.
You will hear triplets against the 4/4 time.
You will hear syncopated triplets (1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2, or for dancers,
Long, Long, Short)
For me that gives tango its own kind of "swing", obviouslyl different
from Jazz/Swing.
>
>The grounded, smooth nature of tango tends to fit
>physically with straight rhythm played at a walking
>tempo. Matching up to another rhythm makes it look to...
Maybe DiSarli is smoother and walking, but the t
>I think funkier rhythmic feels sometimes seem as if
>they might fit with the character of milonga.
Milonga, at least the candombe milongas of the 1930s have a bit of
african or "afro-nostalgia" rhythm. In this case, some boleros or
mambos feel somewhat related.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:21:33 -0700
From: Thorn <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Stephen Brown wrote:
> Robert Dodier wrote:
>
> >What do you-all think about dancing tango
> >to non-tango music?
> I find the swing beat of big band jazz music does not make for very good
> tango dancing. It completely changes the feel of the dance for me. I
> would prefer to dance tango to some modern tangos--not all of them--than to
> dance tango to big band jazz.
The phrase "dance to" finally leaps out to me. And that is the way
it's put in English. One dances a "dance" whatever it's called to a subset
of music. I'm not interested in dancing any dance, not even tango "to"
anything. I am interested in specific songs, most often recordings that I
love and wish to dance. A few of those songs are tango's but most aren't.
"Dancing to" is why I lost interest in social dance.
An alternative which is very rare is when one moves into the
music with a partner and then true improvisation emerges. Yes, all the
techniques are important but disappear into the movement that grows new
born moment by moment as the melody, the song develops and unfolds, and my
partner and I moving together explore the feelings of the music in the
moment. Then everything is new, never before and never again. Like a
sunrise, a waterfall, recognized though never the same.
trying to find words for what is a wordless experience,
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 06:56:14 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dancing to something other than music of the golden
age
(quoting Jai in part)
> The rhythm of tango is "straight" as
> >contrasted with "swinging".
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> wrote:
> I have to disagree...a lot.
>
> Tango definitely has a syncopated feel, a rhythm and
> a drive that is
> not the straight 1-2-3-4 of a march. It has a lot of
> formal
> syncopation (as a musician might use the term), as
> well as a more
> informal definition (as a dancer might use it.)
I knew somebody would respond with that, which is why
I also said:
<<
Swing does
not simply mean that it's "rhythmic" and you like it.
"Swing" is a technical musical term used by jazz
musicians to describe a specific rhythmic feel they
apply.
>>
Swing is not a subjective qualification. It's a
technical term from music theory. It's a rhythmic
embellishment most easily heard in a series of eighth
notes which a musician doesn't play evenly, but rather
whose time values he alters. At a subtler level, it
also applies to something that some musicians call the
"pocket", which refers to how much a musician may
slightly displace his own attacks from others in the
ensemble. A soloist who "lays back" displaces his
attacks slightly later than another instrument. This
also effects the perception of swing.
Swing does not mean syncopation.
Syncopated rhythms can be played in straight time.
This is what is heard in tango. Swing is virtually
non-existent in tango.
Syncopated rhythms can also be swung. Syncopation has
nothing to do with swing. They are distinct elements.
I was also careful to qualify my words when I related
tango movement to rhythm and tempo, saying:
<<
The grounded, smooth nature of tango tends to fit
physically with straight rhythm played at a walking
tempo.
>>
This statement does not presume to limit tango to a
single rhythmic feel and tempo, which would be a
mistaken view for which I obviously need no
correction.
Your statement that "swing music puts a lilt into
tango that isn't quite right" is correct and reflects
your honest, subjective awareness of the music you are
hearing.
Your understanding of musical terms is incorrect.
Jai
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 03:56:23 -0700
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
My hope is that, someday, someone will figure out how to solve the fidelity
problems of the classic age music. Then dancing to long blocks of golden age
music will be as wonderful of an experience as dancing to high-fidelity,
stereophonic Tango music of later eras. I can only imagine how beautiful the
classics must have been played live.
I don't see the people that dance Tango as a monolithic slab, all sharing
the same tastes in music & dance styles. I know some people love dancing to
mostly the classics, I know that some people have no issues with whatever is
being played, & I know that some people welcome more variety. I talk to
these people all the time about the music.
Rick Anderson
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:18:37 -0700
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
If someone in Montreal has really solved the fidelity issues of the
classic-age, that would be totally good news. If the sound quality is up
there with, for example, the high-fidelity, real stereo Pugliese recordings,
it will be like going from black & white television to color, which I
vaguely remember my family doing in the mid 60s. I hope the music gets
shared with everyone on the planet, unless for some reason, someone prefers
watching black & white television. Not me... I like my TV/movies in color,
dance music in high-fidelity/real stereo. I'm something of a train/railroad
nut & there is a group of hardcore purists that really only want to see
photographs in black & white, I'm not one of those either.
Steve, I'm a little puzzled about your comment regarding my ignorance of old
Tango music. I guess I could respond in kind, but don't see the point
really, unless generating more heat than light is my goal. I have friends
that know lots about the old music & have downloaded all kinds of it, as
well as higher fidelity/real stereo Tango & non-Tango music. If I wanted to,
I could find out more about the golden age music, but it wouldn't change
that fact that it is fidelity challenged. I dance a lot of different styles
of dance & I couldn't really tell you what all the artists are, when they
recorded the songs, etc. I'm not sure how many other dancers could as well.
However, my hearing works really well & I can tell you what sounds like the
original & what doesn't. What has captured the soul & essence of the
original music/musicians & what has not. What is high-fidelity & real
stereophonic music & what is not.
Regarding my comment about people at Tango not being a monolithic slab of
people, I would challenge you & anyone interested in such things, to openly
solicit feedback at dances. Make an announcement before a dance, asking
people to drop by & give you their 2 cents about the music being played.
This includes beginners too. How do they feel about the mix, would they be
open to more variety? Non-tango music, etc, etc... It wouldn't hurt to play
more variety as well. I talk to people all the time that aren't hardcore
purists about a certain genre. There's lots of beautiful, high-fidelity
Tango music out there.
Thanks for the discussion regarding the engineering aspects of music. That
is what I suspect is going on with sound & its nice to hear the techncial
aspects/etc. Perhaps the future will hold some hope for reproducing the
essence of the original orchestras.
Take care...
Rick Anderson
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:47:55 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Stereo versus mono; was Re: [TANGO-L] Dancing to something other than
music of the golden age
First, just so people don't make assumptions,
I disagree with nearly everything that Rick Anderson
(aka Bugs Bunny) has written about classical tango
recordings, but I don't wish to belabor that disagreement
in this posting.
Rick's posting did remind me though of a question as to stereo
versus mono in a milonga setting.
A couple local people have stated that stereo is not good for
a dance setting, as the audio interference patterns can cause
a bad sound. This makes sense from the laws of physics, as
when one is not in the dead center, there will be interference
patterns which are frequency dependent.
I've noticed this at home when I play a stereo recording but
am in another room. It can sound muffled, sometimes pretty bad,
as if the speakers are fighting each other. If I'm in the same
room as the speakers, the stereo sounds great. Of course, the
more centered between the speakers, the better.
When I switch my amplifier to mono, then it doesn't sound
as nice in the speaker room, but the sound in the adjoining
room is much better than when played in stereo.
This observation may apply to a dance hall, as dancers will be
moving around and generally will not be dead center.
Comments?
Dave Schmitz
Denver
Rick wrote:
> If someone in Montreal has really solved the fidelity issues of the
> classic-age, that would be totally good news. If the sound quality is up
> there with, for example, the high-fidelity, real stereo Pugliese recordings,
>...
> Not me... I like my TV/movies in color,
> dance music in high-fidelity/real stereo.
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:12:36 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:55:42 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
>(quoting Jai in part)
>> The rhythm of tango is "straight" as
>> >contrasted with "swinging".
>
>--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> wrote:
>
>> I have to disagree...a lot.
>>
>> Tango definitely has a syncopated feel, a rhythm and
> > a drive that is not the straight 1-2-3-4 of a march.
> > It has a lot of formal syncopation (as a musician
> > might use the term), as well as a more
>> informal definition (as a dancer might use it.)
>
>I knew somebody would respond with that, which is why
>I also said:
>
><<
>Swing does not simply mean that it's "rhythmic" and you
>like it. "Swing" is a technical musical term used by jazz
>musicians to describe a specific rhythmic feel they
>apply.
>>>
I don't have an issue with your technical definitions; you are more
of a musician than I am.
Wouldn't you sat that both Swing and Tango are based in 4/4 time, but
interpreted by musicians and dancers AWAY from "straight" 4/4 time?
As a musician, you are clearly capable of defining very accurately
what swing means; I'm sure you can do the same for tango.
As a dancer, I may have a fuzzier intellectual sense, but to me, I
can FEEL that swing "SWINGS" and tango "TANGOS". It is immediately
obvious from the first strains, just like swing music.
So, what is it that makes tango TANGO?
>Swing is not a subjective qualification. It's a
>technical term from music theory. It's a rhythmic
>embellishment most easily heard in a series of eighth
>notes which a musician doesn't play evenly, but rather
>whose time values he alters. At a subtler level, it
>also applies to something that some musicians call the
>"pocket", which refers to how much a musician may
>slightly displace his own attacks from others in the
>ensemble. A soloist who "lays back" displaces his
>attacks slightly later than another instrument. This
>also effects the perception of swing.
I agree tango isn't "swing", but...tango musicians interpret the
rhythms and music in a "tango" way, using "rhythmic embellishments",
syncopation, dropping beats or emphasizing an "off" beat, starting
the wheeze of the bandoneon before the strong beat, and then
punctuating the beat by bringing the instrument down on the knee.
Tango musicians will throw in the occasional 3-3-2 passage on top of
the 4/4, which I find incredibly seductive. Piazolla builds his
tangos almost entirely on the 3-3-2 rhythm, which is why they sort of
pull you along like a milonga, which I find frenetic, not seductive.
>Swing does not mean syncopation.
>
>Syncopated rhythms can be played in straight time.
>This is what is heard in tango. Swing is virtually
>non-existent in tango.
>
>Syncopated rhythms can also be swung. Syncopation has
>nothing to do with swing. They are distinct elements.
>
>I was also careful to qualify my words when I related
>tango movement to rhythm and tempo, saying:
I trust you are right in your definitions.
I believe tango has its own, accurate definitions. You would be
happier asking a tango musician about these than asking me.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:32:30 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dancing to something other than music of the golden
age
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> wrote:
> Wouldn't you sat that both Swing and Tango are based
> in 4/4 time, but
> interpreted by musicians and dancers AWAY from
> "straight" 4/4 time?
I appreciate that it's hard to talk about music in
emails, but since I enjoy being tiresomely pedantic
(sorry) I'm going to take a stab at that...
When talking about rhythmic feel, straight doesn't
refer to the big beats you walk to. It refers to the
subdivisions of those big beats. In musical terms,
even when you dance traspie, you are still dancing
straight time.
Straight time does not mean it's all steps of
slow-slow-slow-slow.
Dancing steps in a rhythm of
slow-slow-quick-quick-slow is still dancing in
straight time.
Swing time refers to a subdivision of the beat at a
level that's even quicker than any "quick" step.
Traspie, too, can have little fast changes that are
happening faster than an ordinary "quick", yet this is
still happening in straight time. (Musically, these
are "dotted rhythms".) The "feel" is created by the
ratio between the long and the short note values.
It's easy to see in music notation. It's also easy to
hear the difference. It's harder to demonstrate in
dance because you generally don't take steps as fast
as those short musical time values, you just "feel"
them.
You know what a great analogy is? Poetic feet. An
iamb is a straight rhythm. An anapest is a swing
rhythm. Do you know how limericks have a lilt? It's
because the foot is split into three instead of two or
four.
(A subdivision of two would be like a quick-quick in
tango; a subdivision of four would be like the
habanera rhythm, which holds for three subdivisions
and puts it's little hitch in the fourth
subdivision... this is a "dotted" rhythm, referring to
the symbols to notate it.)
The lilt of a limerick is very much like the lilt of
swing time, but the feet of a limerick are going by at
a tempo typically slower than swing music you dance
to.
In swing music at a slow or moderate tempo you can
dance a so-called "triple step". In classes they'll
count a swing basic like "tri-ple step tri-ple step
rock step". The "-ple" part of "triple" is happening
somewhere between the beats. The way you place that
tiny "-ple" is what distinguishes between straight and
swung.
Tango and milonga have a lot of different rhythms,
like quick-quick-slow's and traspie dotted rhythms
with little short note values in them. The placement
of those short values gives tango and (almost all)
milonga a straight rhythmic feel.
> I
> can FEEL that swing "SWINGS" and tango "TANGOS". It
> is immediately
> obvious from the first strains, just like swing
> music.
Absolutely. And that's because rhythmic "feel" is
always determined by where the short notes go. Swing
places those shorts notes differently from tango, like
the way (anapestic) limericks are different from
(iambic) sonnets. That's why you are always able to
distinguish instantly between swing feel and tango or
milonga feel.
People tend to respond physically to swing time in a
different way from straight time. That's why most
people posting to the list say they can't relate to
dancing tango to swing music.
Jai
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:52:54 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dancing to something other than music of the golden age
>--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> wrote:
>People tend to respond physically to swing time in a
>different way from straight time. That's why most
>people posting to the list say they can't relate to
>dancing tango to swing music.
This last comment is exactly why this discussion has been so useful.
I absolutely agree with you that one can do tango steps to swing, but
then it doesn't have the "right" tango feel.
When you put on a nice, slow swing for a N. American audience of
tango dancers, they sometimes relate to it with much more energy and
musicality, indicating that they really feel this music much more
easily than those damned old scratchy tangos!
The opposite of your comment, is that people respond physically to
"tango time" in a special way also. That is a better reason why I
don't like to tango to "non-traditional" tango...it doesn't feel like
tango, or at least the "important" part of tango. (see below)
(Close friends know I'm not a purist about this. I play other
interesting music when I want to evoke other important tango aspects,
for example Habanerando & Oblivion as interpreted by Richard
Galliano).
> > Wouldn't you sat that both Swing and Tango are based
>> in 4/4 time, but
>> interpreted by musicians and dancers AWAY from
>> "straight" 4/4 time?
>
>I appreciate that it's hard to talk about music in
>emails, but since I enjoy being tiresomely pedantic
>(sorry) I'm going to take a stab at that...
>
>When talking about rhythmic feel, straight doesn't
>refer to the big beats you walk to. It refers to the
>subdivisions of those big beats. In musical terms,
>even when you dance traspie, you are still dancing
>straight time.
Tras pie is normally on the half beat (or weaker beat), and yes that
is straight.
The occasional 3-3-2 rhythm is an interpretation by the musicians
against the straight beat, and I dare say a syncopation. So if you do
a tras pie or some kind of rhythmic step on the 3-3-2, you aren't on
the straight beat (whole or half steps).
(3-3-2 is Piazzolla's normal rhythm, so it is no longer a
syncopation; later Troilo puts in so much 3-3-2 that I find him
harder to dance to...and guess who was Troilo's mid 40s arranger!)
Milongas & tangos have lots of other dotted notes, which may be
notated or simply interpreted by the orchestra.
The other "dotted moment" is the lead-in to the main beat, where the
musician or orchestra initiates the note before hitting it strongly
at the "1" beat. The bandoneon expresses this extremely well, as I
noted before.
For me, this is probably the most important "tango" element, the one
that says TANGO, not swing or polka. It is the dramatic element often
given expression by stage dancers with a long, slow slide on the
first side step of a song or a phrase.
Of greatest interest to me as a social dancer, this "pre-beat"
musical expression is that special moment of engagement with your
partner, when you give a strong indication for leading the next step.
So when the music doesn't have this, it doesn't say tango to me.
When my partner doesn't express it, I feel like I am dancing with a damp cloth.
I suggested before to listen to and contrast songs 9 & 10 on the
Fresedo/Ray CD: "Yo no se Llorar" is a decent, but relatively square
(or "pink champagne" tango), and "Isle of Capri", an insipid little
foxtrot that neither swings nor tangos!
--
-----
"To my way of thinking the tango is, above all, rhythm,
nerve, force, character...I tried to restore to the tango
its masculine quality." -- Juan D'Arienzo (1949)
-----
Tom Stermitz
- Stermitz@Ragtime.org
- 303-725-5963
- https://www.tango.org/dance/EternaTeaching.html
