2687  dancing styles

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:08:47 EDT
From: Crrtango@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: dancing styles

greetings,

I have studied with Danel and Maria about six years now and Danel always says
that learning open, complex figures is not about being able to do them at a
dance and he even says that you should not do them at a milonga, especially at
a crowded one. But the point is that they teach you about balance and poise
and technique so that you can ultimately dance better at a milonga in close
style. The real problem is that too many teachers teach them exclusively without
teaching people how to also dance close. As you become more accomplished you
should try to dance closer. In fact he never makes a distinction stylistically.
It was just assumed that as one became more advanced, one would move closer.
Another thing he teaches when he does open figures, is to start and finish the
figure in the line of dance, no matter how complex, something very few
teachers do, or can do for that matter. But also as someone has posted, almost all
open figures are also possible in closed position. They should not be approached
as two different styles. Open dancing is necessary at first (they even do
that in Buenos Aires) because it is too difficult for a beginner to dance close.
Classifying them as different styles is usually just a gimmick for selling
classes.

Cheers,
Charles

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:27:16 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: dancing styles (was: progress report?)

Crrtango@AOL.COM wrote:

> Open dancing is necessary at first (they even do
> that in Buenos Aires) because it is too difficult for a beginner to dance close.
>
> Cheers,
> Charles
>

Why is it too difficult for a beginner to dance close? BTW, this is not
a troll, I am sincerely interested in why people feel this is the case,
i.e., case histories, what exercises used, what criteria, etc. Going
back to Randy's OP (see "progress report" thread), he said that his
students progressed faster when started out in close. Soon as we get the
rest of Randy's report, we'll have some interesting material to work
with, and experiments of our own to conduct. Very exciting! Marjorie and
I have already been trying out some of the exercises offered by Michael
F. from Houston....

--
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:50:20 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay (E-mail)" <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: dancing styles (was: progress report?)

It isn't difficult. Try it. In my classes I always show people how close
tango is danced, but if they want they can dance farther apart. By the end
of the class everyone is dancing close without too much effort. Of course,
if the teacher doesn't give people this option, they won't try.

Of course, maybe I could get them to come to classes for three times as long
if I surprise them after six months with showing them how tango is really
danced. Then they'll have to start over!!

Lois (a Marketing Consultant in real life) Donnay, Minneapolis

>
> Crrtango@AOL.COM wrote:
> > Open dancing is necessary at first (they even do
> > that in Buenos Aires) because it is too difficult for a beginner to
> > dance close.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Charles
> >
>
> Why is it too difficult for a beginner to dance close? BTW,
> this is not a troll, I am sincerely interested in why people
> feel this is the case, i.e., case histories, what exercises
> used, what criteria, etc. Going back to Randy's OP (see
> "progress report" thread), he said that his students
> progressed faster when started out in close.

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:51:41 -0400
From: Gülden Özen
<gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: dancing styles (was: progress report?)

At 04:27 PM 8/26/2004, Michael wrote:

>Crrtango@AOL.COM wrote:
>>Open dancing is necessary at first (they even do
>>that in Buenos Aires) because it is too difficult for a beginner to dance
>>close.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Charles
>
>Why is it too difficult for a beginner to dance close? BTW, this is not
>a troll, I am sincerely interested in why people feel this is the case,
>i.e., case histories, what exercises used, what criteria, etc. Going
>back to Randy's OP (see "progress report" thread), he said that his
>students progressed faster when started out in close. Soon as we get the
>rest of Randy's report, we'll have some interesting material to work
>with, and experiments of our own to conduct. Very exciting! Marjorie and
>I have already been trying out some of the exercises offered by Michael
>F. from Houston....
>--
>Michael
>Tango Bellingham

As much as you'd like to make it sound like Randy's case had a controlled
experimentation of "open" versus "close" embrace, I think the main success
of his new approach was using improvisational technique as opposed to
infamous D8CB!

I totally agree with what Charles says. Unless one has the good technique
and understanding of the movements, preference to stick with only "close
embrace" right from the beginning wouldn't mean more than an excuse to
avoid taking challenges and improvement.

Gulden

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:09:43 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: dancing styles

Gülden Özen wrote:

>
> As much as you'd like to make it sound like Randy's case had a controlled
> experimentation of "open" versus "close" embrace,

Huh? I never said it was a "controlled" experiment. Besides, I'd like to
know how we'd do a classic "double-blind" experiment on teaching
techniques, anyway - I think this fits better under "anthropological"-
or "sociological"- type research methods. I'm more interested in his
methodology and case histories than his experimental design.

I think the main success

> of his new approach was using improvisational technique as opposed to
> infamous D8CB!
>

Why don't we wait and see what Randy actually *did* first, and then we
can discuss what was the cause of the improvement?

> I totally agree with what Charles says. Unless one has the good technique
> and understanding of the movements, preference to stick with only "close
> embrace" right from the beginning wouldn't mean more than an excuse to
> avoid taking challenges and improvement.
>
> Gulden
>

Uh, how is starting beginners off in close embrace "avoiding taking
challenges and improvement"? I don't follow you at all....
--
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:37:20 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@LAVIDACONDEBY.COM>
Subject: Changing your embrace...dancing styles...et al

OK guys, here I go, your resident American who lives in Buenos Aires and
dances tango without the aid of a computer, videos, or manuals.
Tete, Dany, Mimi, or whoever you talk to will tell you tango is a dance
of the heart. It is your soul and your passion.

"Big names are not really examples, since they have to have their own
style for business purposes."

Igor I should slap you silly for that comment. The people who adapt
styles for business are the majority of people who masquerade themselves
as teachers passing through the Bay Area to teach. Worse yet are the
ones who just because they are Argentine, think it gives them a license
to teach tango. Rather than wash dishes they become tango teachers.

Gavito/Paiva/Tete do not adapt styles for business. Gavito studied most
of his years with Mariano Leotera the father of Mimi Santapa. The basis
of Marionito's teaching was that tango should feel natural to the body.
He had 40 sequences that became the dance. Most teachers today use his
sequences. He was the first to introduce posture as being the most
important part of the dance. If anyone adapted anyone's style it was
Gavito with Marionito. It doesn't matter. What Gavito danced and taught
was to be comfortable with your body. I remember once in a class with
him he made the comment that a tango was his tango and nobody could ever
take that from him.

I have known TeTe for years. He is the least commercial guy I know.
This is a guy who brings ice cream into the milonga because he forgot to
eat his dinner. He is a dear sweet man who loves only to dance. His
style never changes. He dances the same whether it is in class or in an
exhibition. He is Tete. He has a very musical and fun style of dance.
He does not need to change his embrace because he has his
posture/axis/balance.

Paiva's style is also different. More formal and precise. I danced
with him years ago. Although I do not favor his style, he too
communicates the music in his way regardless of where he is dancing.

Once I saw an exhibition of two dancers in a milonga a couple of years
ago. After I met up with Mimi. I told her I had seen these dancers
that I knew must be her students. I had thought at the time they were
excellent. I told her they both had an embrace like hers. The man
danced more like Omar Vega and the woman like Alexandra Arrue. Mimi
described who they were perfectly to me. She said I was correct on who
the teachers were. Then she added, if they were good dancers, you would
never been able to tell who their teachers were. Good dancers have
their own style.

I sit in the milongas with my friends. Sometimes when we are bored we
look at the dancers and try to figure out who they took classes from.
(That along with naming the Barbies) We can tell who has taken classes
from Geraldine, Mimi, Susana, or Tete. The students literally copy the
style of the teacher rather than the premises that they teach. The sad
part is they look unnatural. They are dancing against the natural turn
of their bodies.

I translate for several teachers here. In a class with Roberto Dentone
an older woman wanted to learn an ocho cortado. He gave her a simple
elegant movement to execute. She kept telling him that was not the
step. He had me dance with him. My ocho cortado has a pivot. I like
it, I think it is sassy and it fits my personality. The woman said she
wanted to learn the ocho cortado how I make the movement. Roberto in
being kind told her that the step he was teaching her was more elegant
than mine. He liked it better for her. She insisted on doing it the
way I do it. She cannot. She does not have the posture or flexibility
to move the way I do. He was teaching her to dance in a style that would
be elegant and natural for her body. She wanted to learn a step.

Nuevo tango...does not really exist here or in the way that those of you
who do not live here think it does. The classes that be are full of
foreigners. When you see that there are 90 milongas and only a couple
practicas for nuevo tango, what does that tell you? Corporacion Tango,
the group of dancers with Joanna Copes, and several others under 30 are
dancing a beautiful style of tango and it is not nuevo. There are
groups of children now studying tango here in the capital. Roberto
Dentone has a 10 year old girl he teaches, Gustavo has a troop, as do
others. The milongas have been spotlighting the young dancers in
exhibitions. The kids are 15 years old and what are they dancing? I
can tell you this - Not nuevo.

Does the embrace change? Yes it does. But not in the middle of a dance
to execute a step. I use several embraces now. Why do you have to
change your embrace in the middle of a dance? Why Burleigh are you
unable to execute your turns? It is because of lack of posture, axis,
and balance. Things that are rarely taught in the U.S. or taught well.
If you do not have correct posture/axis/balance, then your embrace is
off. The women cannot make the turn because there is no where for her
to go. You are in the way. If you both have correct posture, the turn
should be a simple movement. If you have to change your embrace so she
can turn, the movement will be clumsy for sure, and what you are really
doing is facilitating your bad habits.

I have never ever felt limited by my embrace to make any movements. I
have felt limited by dancers who have no posture/axis/balance or sense
of the music. They make it impossible for me to execute a graceful
turn, a barrida, and even something so simple as the sandwich. On the
same note, a woman without posture is heavy to dance with, cannot move
fluidly, making it impossible for the man to lead her through the
movement. Women who say they do not get the lead more often than not
are women who do not have good posture. They cannot feel the lead
because of them, not because it is not there.

This is why so many teachers teach steps. This way you can shortcut the
process of having to learn to walk, get your balance, axis, or posture.
You dont need a lead because your body has memorized a pattern to the
steps. Is this bad? It is for me, but if others enjoy dancing this
way, then who am I to say it is bad, it just is not for me. Going back
to what Gavito said " the tango is his tango and nobody can ever take
that from him." Try to remember that tango is a social dance. There is
no absolute right or wrong way to dance it. There are just better ways
that look and feel more natural.