3629 deepening tango
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:56:25 -0700
From: H Dickinson <hyladlmp@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: deepening tango
Ohhh, I am liking this latest series of posts! They are
bringing me into some interesting ideas and feelings. They have
started several lines of related thoughts; I'm going to post
some separate responses to them.
Rose, the only way I have found to respond to an egotistical
dancer, (one who is not dancing with or for me, but only for
himself) is to be as fully myself as possible, and to make sure
that he knows that I am there. I bring my interpretation of the
music into as much of the dance as I can, changing the dynamics
of each step, perhaps lingering a little or bringing a feeling
of suspension and pause, before moving to land exactly on the
beat. Or a little tap or brush with my free foot on his, or on
the floor, to say "I know where you are, and I am here" while
still being able to be ready for the next step. Brian, in
response to your regret that there are fewer opportunities for
women to improvise in the closest embraces--I have found that
this type of play occurs just as easily in a very restrictive
close embrace as in a more open one. In fact, it can be easier,
because you have the chance to really know where you are in
relation to one another. The trick is to entice him into
wanting to listen to you, entice him into wanting to give you
the time and or space to play or pause.
Notice that I am NOT saying that I just do what I want, or I
ignore his lead, or backlead, or overpower him. No, no--these
are subtle little things and when done right, are at most hints
or suggestions. Sometimes it is just as little as giving a
touch of resistance so that you both feel as if you are moving
through honey, which can, if the lead is listening to you,
really deepen the connection. Play with the density of your
connection, how light or heavy you are, whether you are being
staccato or legato, whether your line is long and flowing or
curlique and baroque, or sharp, rectilinear. Pick up his strong
points and enhance them, or play against them. It all has to be
within the bounds of your own limitations as a follower, and the
physical limits of the embrace, so you don't upset your balance
or his, you keep track of which foot you are supposed to have
you weight on, you respond to his lead, etc. And you have to
listen back, so that you can tell if he is not picking this up,
or doesn't choose to respond to it at this time.
This leads to one of two things: 1) The guy is really
interested, sometimes entranced "Wow! That opened up whole new
realms of understanding about the music!" If he's listening,
maybe you'll give him some ideas to use later, or he might
decide he likes your idea so much that he sets it up again, or
makes a riff on it, picking it up and using it some other way.
And he starts to wonder what he can do to foster that, and
starts to look for other such follows, etc. (one such man tells
me I have a "strong flavor"). 2) The guy just can't hear you at
all--he is so caught up in his own thing that any change that
you make to expected timing, or any indication that both your
feet are not exactly where he expects them to be at all times,
either does not register with him, or causes him to think that
you are "messing up", so that he gets frustrated because he is
always assuming that you are "wrong". He can't accept that you
can end up where he wants you, while varying the route to get
there.
I prefer not to dance with the #2 guys. What they are looking
for is a very predictable dancer who is there to execute the
"other half" of their artistic vision. The perfect follow has
perfect balance and is otherwise very predictable and malleable,
existing for his art, sort of like the canvas or paint or clay
to be molded by him. There is a challenge and pride for the
woman in trying to reach that pinnacle, there is something to be
said for being an "inspiration" by virtue of one's ablity to
execute to perfection every nuance of the guy's vision. But I
mostly find it boring unless the guy is a very good and creative
dancer; even then it requires a certain repression of my
personality, requires me to subordinate my own response to the
music so that his can have full play. So there are a certain
number of dancers who just won't ask me to dance very often--I
am not perfect enough to serve as "inspiration", and not
predictable/malleable enough to serve as the mechanichnistic
means of expressing their vision. This is fine with me, because
I like to dance with guys who are interested in a shared
experience. And I'm also kind of tickled by the fact that I am
human, and therefore err, so I'm not that attached to working
toward "perfection", which means I can be pretty imperfect (but
interesting!) at times.
Tango is improvisation, and some leads take that to mean that
they get to improvise their own vision exclusively throughout
the dance. I like to dance with guys who take a stumble, a
navigation hazard, a nuance of music, a follower's input
(whether that be a "mistake", or a subtle suggestion for a
change of timing, direction, embrace, or depth of connection) as
a possiblity or invitation to expand the improv to a level
beyond their own limited imagination.
What I am talking about is not a barrier to melding. Sometimes
I will be dancing with a guy who listens so much that he
inspires me to listen so much and then we meld and it's no
longer about "I speak, you listen and respond to me, I listen
and respond to you, etc." but instead about that phenomenon
which Jonathon writes of, that of becoming some other entity for
the duration of the dance where it's not "me and you" or even
"us" but just being/dancing/music.
Hyla
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:10:23 -0700
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: deepening tango
Suddenly so many of beautiful posts.
Hyla wrote
>>>>>>> Sometimes I will be dancing with a guy who listens so much that he inspires me to listen so much and then we meld and it's no longer about "I speak, you listen and respond to me, I listen and respond to you, etc." but instead about that phenomenon which Jonathon writes of, that of becoming some other entity for the duration of the dance where it's not "me and you" or even "us" but just being/dancing/music
>>>>>
I have always wondered along these lines, first its 'you and me', then 'we are one' and finally some sort of cosmic unity, like you dont exist anymore. I guess that is the ultimate experience and I wouldn't mind if I died after that:)
Regarding the Jonathan's comment on the "touch", I think there is a quality associated with the touch that makes it special and IMO that is being very conscious about it. For example if you watched Gavito inviting woman into his embrace, most probably you noticed "slow motion" like movement of his left hand as he offers it. Then when you actually touch a burst of electricity seems to flow.
IL
H Dickinson <hyladlmp@YAHOO.COM> wrote:Ohhh, I am liking this latest series of posts! They are
bringing me into some interesting ideas and feelings. They have
started several lines of related thoughts; I'm going to post
some separate responses to them.
Rose, the only way I have found to respond to an egotistical
dancer, (one who is not dancing with or for me, but only for
himself) is to be as fully myself as possible, and to make sure
that he knows that I am there. I bring my interpretation of the
music into as much of the dance as I can, changing the dynamics
of each step, perhaps lingering a little or bringing a feeling
of suspension and pause, before moving to land exactly on the
beat. Or a little tap or brush with my free foot on his, or on
the floor, to say "I know where you are, and I am here" while
still being able to be ready for the next step. Brian, in
response to your regret that there are fewer opportunities for
women to improvise in the closest embraces--I have found that
this type of play occurs just as easily in a very restrictive
close embrace as in a more open one. In fact, it can be easier,
because you have the chance to really know where you are in
relation to one another. The trick is to entice him into
wanting to listen to you, entice him into wanting to give you
the time and or space to play or pause.
Notice that I am NOT saying that I just do what I want, or I
ignore his lead, or backlead, or overpower him. No, no--these
are subtle little things and when done right, are at most hints
or suggestions. Sometimes it is just as little as giving a
touch of resistance so that you both feel as if you are moving
through honey, which can, if the lead is listening to you,
really deepen the connection. Play with the density of your
connection, how light or heavy you are, whether you are being
staccato or legato, whether your line is long and flowing or
curlique and baroque, or sharp, rectilinear. Pick up his strong
points and enhance them, or play against them. It all has to be
within the bounds of your own limitations as a follower, and the
physical limits of the embrace, so you don't upset your balance
or his, you keep track of which foot you are supposed to have
you weight on, you respond to his lead, etc. And you have to
listen back, so that you can tell if he is not picking this up,
or doesn't choose to respond to it at this time.
This leads to one of two things: 1) The guy is really
interested, sometimes entranced "Wow! That opened up whole new
realms of understanding about the music!" If he's listening,
maybe you'll give him some ideas to use later, or he might
decide he likes your idea so much that he sets it up again, or
makes a riff on it, picking it up and using it some other way.
And he starts to wonder what he can do to foster that, and
starts to look for other such follows, etc. (one such man tells
me I have a "strong flavor"). 2) The guy just can't hear you at
all--he is so caught up in his own thing that any change that
you make to expected timing, or any indication that both your
feet are not exactly where he expects them to be at all times,
either does not register with him, or causes him to think that
you are "messing up", so that he gets frustrated because he is
always assuming that you are "wrong". He can't accept that you
can end up where he wants you, while varying the route to get
there.
I prefer not to dance with the #2 guys. What they are looking
for is a very predictable dancer who is there to execute the
"other half" of their artistic vision. The perfect follow has
perfect balance and is otherwise very predictable and malleable,
existing for his art, sort of like the canvas or paint or clay
to be molded by him. There is a challenge and pride for the
woman in trying to reach that pinnacle, there is something to be
said for being an "inspiration" by virtue of one's ablity to
execute to perfection every nuance of the guy's vision. But I
mostly find it boring unless the guy is a very good and creative
dancer; even then it requires a certain repression of my
personality, requires me to subordinate my own response to the
music so that his can have full play. So there are a certain
number of dancers who just won't ask me to dance very often--I
am not perfect enough to serve as "inspiration", and not
predictable/malleable enough to serve as the mechanichnistic
means of expressing their vision. This is fine with me, because
I like to dance with guys who are interested in a shared
experience. And I'm also kind of tickled by the fact that I am
human, and therefore err, so I'm not that attached to working
toward "perfection", which means I can be pretty imperfect (but
interesting!) at times.
Tango is improvisation, and some leads take that to mean that
they get to improvise their own vision exclusively throughout
the dance. I like to dance with guys who take a stumble, a
navigation hazard, a nuance of music, a follower's input
(whether that be a "mistake", or a subtle suggestion for a
change of timing, direction, embrace, or depth of connection) as
a possiblity or invitation to expand the improv to a level
beyond their own limited imagination.
What I am talking about is not a barrier to melding. Sometimes
I will be dancing with a guy who listens so much that he
inspires me to listen so much and then we meld and it's no
longer about "I speak, you listen and respond to me, I listen
and respond to you, etc." but instead about that phenomenon
which Jonathon writes of, that of becoming some other entity for
the duration of the dance where it's not "me and you" or even
"us" but just being/dancing/music.
Hyla
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:04:17 -0700
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: deepening tango
I am fond of foot play. A little while ago, I danced with a
woman who not only responded, she interjected her own ideas.
It went quite far beyond a barrida-contra barrida. I can't even
describe it. It was like playing speed chess with our feet.
It was completely intoxicating. It was like dueling punsters. It
was like dancing with someone who could speak, after dancing
with people who were mute. I never wanted it to end.
Of course, it is not the only dance, or the only kind of dance.
Cuddly close-embrace trance is wonderful; open-embrace twisting
dueling sacadas are exhilirating; they're all delightful.
Neither was it the only "timbre" for a woman's voice. The
changes in density, the subtle wiggles, the adornos, the
traspies--love it all.
But this was like...being an immigrant, and running into someone
who is also from your home country, and suddenly being able to
yak it up in your long-unused, native tongue.
"There are nine and sixty ways of [responding to a lead], And
every single one of them is right! ..." (1)
With apologies to Kipling.
ramiro
1. "In the Neolithic Age"
https://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/volumeXI/neolithicage.html
--- H Dickinson <hyladlmp@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> that he knows that I am there. I bring my interpretation of
> the
> music into as much of the dance as I can, changing the
> dynamics
> of each step, perhaps lingering a little or bringing a feeling
> of suspension and pause, before moving to land exactly on the
> beat. Or a little tap or brush with my free foot on his, or
> on
> the floor, to say "I know where you are, and I am here" while
> still being able to be ready for the next step. Brian, in
> response to your regret that there are fewer opportunities for
> women to improvise in the closest embraces--I have found that
> this type of play occurs just as easily in a very restrictive
> close embrace as in a more open one. In fact, it can be
> easier,
> because you have the chance to really know where you are in
> relation to one another. The trick is to entice him into
> wanting to listen to you, entice him into wanting to give you
> the time and or space to play or pause.
>
> Notice that I am NOT saying that I just do what I want, or I
> ignore his lead, or backlead, or overpower him. No, no--these
> are subtle little things and when done right, are at most
> hints or suggestions.
ramiro garcia
ramiro9@yahoo.com
---
In their feud [Stalin and Trotsky] both were right. Stalin was right in
maintaining that his regime was the embodiment of socialist principles.
Trotsky was right in asserting that Stalin's regime had made Russia a hell.
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:33:25 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: deepening tango
I think followers who do this are the most interesting and fufilling
partners. The dance becomes a conversation instead of a monologue.
So how do we teach this to followers? Is this something that they have
to pick up by osmosis, or are there exercises to help the followers
develop the ability? How do we teach them to, as Hyla says, "riff" off
the the rhythms and make kinesthetic suggestions without disrupting the
flow?
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
H Dickinson wrote:
> Notice that I am NOT saying that I just do what I want, or I
> ignore his lead, or backlead, or overpower him. No, no--these
> are subtle little things and when done right, are at most hints
> or suggestions. Sometimes it is just as little as giving a
> touch of resistance so that you both feel as if you are moving
> through honey, which can, if the lead is listening to you,
> really deepen the connection. Play with the density of your
> connection, how light or heavy you are, whether you are being
> staccato or legato, whether your line is long and flowing or
> curlique and baroque, or sharp, rectilinear. Pick up his strong
> points and enhance them, or play against them. It all has to be
> within the bounds of your own limitations as a follower, and the
> physical limits of the embrace, so you don't upset your balance
> or his, you keep track of which foot you are supposed to have
> you weight on, you respond to his lead, etc. And you have to
> listen back, so that you can tell if he is not picking this up,
> or doesn't choose to respond to it at this time.
>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:28:19 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: deepening tango
--- Michael at Tango Bellingham
<michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM> wrote:
> I think followers who do this are the most
> interesting and fufilling
> partners. The dance becomes a conversation instead
> of a monologue.
>
> So how do we teach this to followers? Is this
> something that they have
> to pick up by osmosis, or are there exercises to
> help the followers
> develop the ability? How do we teach them to, as
> Hyla says, "riff" off
> the the rhythms and make kinesthetic suggestions
> without disrupting the
> flow?
Teach women (and men) how to listen to music and to
value it very early on. It is surprising how many
people do not learn this (well, maybe not so
surprising).
Teach how to connect and to not be afraid of
connecting. Again, many people do not learn this.
Perhaps because that is not what they want from tango
or they do not realize the level of possibilities.
The rest comes from within the woman - her own
artistry. But she will not share her artistry if she
is constantly criticized or taught on the dance floor
or feels that she is not "good enough". A simple
thing to do to encourage her, especially a beginner,
is to compliment her on something - a new dress, new
shoes, hairstyle, her smile.
Teach her that it is okay to be choosy about partners.
No point in sharing her artistry with some egotist
who will not appreciate it. But she needs to know
that it is not her. That not everything is her fault.
Guys, be vocal about how good it feels to dance with a
woman who is expressive, regardless of her technical
ability. Most women do not know what it feels like to
dance with other women, so share that experience. By
saying "Wow, I really love how so-and-so plays with
the music when we dance", you are not putting down
women who do not do so, but you are suggesting to them
a positive role-model.
A few suggestions that could just as easily apply to
men.
Good artistry to all,
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:13:08 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <obscurebardo@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: deepening tango
On 7/20/05, ramiro garcia <ramiro9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> But this was like...being an immigrant, and running into >someone who is also from your home country, and suddenly >being able to yak it up in your =
long-unused, native tongue.
Ramiro,
Well put! I know this experience of feeling like you've met someone
from home who speaks your language. I think of it as "deep rapport".
Sadly, I don't think it can be taught. It's something very fundamental
to the way we experience the world. It feels like it's in the marrow
of my bones and flowing in my deepest arteries.
Foot play is not my native language nor does it appeal to me though
through practise I might improve at it but I know my native non verbal
language and when I meet the rare partner who also speaks it
"natively" , who is from "there" also, then we meet there, often in
the first dance, and it has something of the quality of a home coming,
a return.
Deep rapport has for me that quality of recognition that this other
shares something deeply fundamental about feeling and being and moving
in the world. And when I find this familiarity I too want to linger
and luxuriate with the person I feel so at home with.
Jonathan Thornton
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:10:33 -0400
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: deepening tango
I returned today, exhausted, from the New York Tango Festival. As usual, my
favorite class was Virginia Kelly's interactive tango, where the woman
learns to play with the man. Alternating the rhythm is just like playing
with the man in that woman is suggesting something different.
To play, the woman has to understand something about leading so she can
communicate to the man "Hey!! Wait a minute. I want to do something." The
best example I can think of is the woman wants to sweep the man's foot after
her foot has been swept. Because they know nothing about leading, they try
to shove the man's foot in the opposite direction. Well, if it doesn't work
when the man pushes the woman's foot because he doesn't know how to lead,
it's not going to work when the woman shoves the man foot in the opposite
direction.
The follower has to learn to apply slight pressure to the man's frame that
means "Wait." This is no different if the woman saw an imminent collision
and pressed on the man's frame to stop.
Also, the man has to be open the suggestion from the woman to relinquish the
lead. She is only "borrowing" it. To some extent this is not different when
the man leads a boleo. He has to wait for the woman to finish the pivot or
she will lose her balance.
To change the rhythm in a molinete, the woman can accelerate her movements
but must make sure the man follows her around by leading him with her frame.
However, both partners must be relaxed for interleading to happen. Tense
partners cannot deliver or receive clear leads.
Daniel Trenner said at Tango Locura in Montreal in 1999, there is no
security in tango. Absolutely right!!
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Still thinking of dancing on the high seas of New York harbor
on the Staten Island Ferry.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] deepening tango
> --- Michael at Tango Bellingham
> <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM> wrote:
> >
> > So how do we teach this to followers?
>
> Teach how to connect and to not be afraid of
> connecting. Again, many people do not learn this.
> Perhaps because that is not what they want from tango
> or they do not realize the level of possibilities.
>
> Guys, be vocal about how good it feels to dance with a
> woman who is expressive, regardless of her technical
> ability
> A few suggestions that could just as easily apply to
> men.
>
>
> Good artistry to all,
> Trini de Pittsburgh
