3607 Direct Lies....
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:22:46 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Direct Lies....
Dear Trini:
When one is told by tango teachers and their students
that a specific version of tango, the so-called
Milogero style, invented here in the US, is the only
version that Argentines dance in Buenos Aires and one
arrives in Buenos Aires to find out that Argentines
dance salon style close embrace and do not know what
Milongero style of tango means...THAT IS CALLED A
DIRECT LIE!!!
Also, when Tine and Jen finish drinking beer instead
of Malbec and they dance the "rose in the teeth" tango
style along with the Milongero style which is
acceptable under their "anything goes rules of walking
like a duck", then maybe they both will consider
sometime going down to Buenos Aires for a year or so
to live and dance with the locals...and maybe even
learn their language, Argentine Spanish, before they
teach more classes of Argentine Tango. I suggest that
they stick with American Tango for the time being,
especially if they are going to drink beer...lol.
Sorry, but I could not resist.
Look, I am an American and I love my country, but
people here in the US all need to start learning about
other cultures, instead of just doing the marketing
thing on them all the time. The Argentines have
steak. Why are we trying to sell them hamburger?????
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> > Sometimes they sink to direct lies as in the case
> > with Susana Miller and her
> > Milonguero Style.
>
> Igor,
>
> I have to take issue with calling anyone's version
> of
> tango a lie. It is simply their truth, which might
> not be your truth.
>
> As a beginning student, I asked my tango teacher
> what
> music to buy for practicing. He suggested Carlos
> Gardel. Was he lying to me that Gardel made good
> practice music? By the way, I enjoy Gardel's music,
> but I would never suggest it for practicing.
>
> So many Argentines are passionate about their
> version
> of tango. After all, it is their personal artistic
> expression. You may not like it or agree with it,
> but
> that doesn't make it a lie.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
> Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great
> items.
>
>
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 19:55:11 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <obscurebardo@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Direct Lies....
On 7/8/05, Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Trini:
>
> When one is told by tango teachers and their students
> that a specific version of tango, the so-called
> Milogero style, invented here in the US,
> is the only
Derik,
This is a statement that needs to be clarified and documented. I
presume you meant to refer to milonguero style. In earlier posts
unless I badly misread Sergio he is saying the milonguero style was
also called club, or apilado among other things and was a legitimate
style of tango that was developed in BsAs and is danced there but is
danced by a minority. Sergio would you correct me if I've
misunderstood you.
> version that Argentines dance in Buenos Aires and one
> arrives in Buenos Aires to find out that Argentines
> dance salon style close embrace and do not know what
> Milongero style of tango means...THAT IS CALLED A
> DIRECT LIE!!!
Again I understood Sergio to say that they don't use the adjective
milonguero to refer to the style but that style does exist and is
danced only not as much as close embrace salon.
I don't understand the tone in your recent posts. This is not the
attitude Sergio took. You seem to have a strong antipathy that you
have failed to explain. A statement as strong as asserting something
is a "direct lie" requires more than the assertion. Who, what, and
where did this happen? And can you document it? Otherwise it's only
your unsupported opinion and without evidence your opinion is just one
of thousands posted everyday somewhere on the internet. However, by
claiming to agree 100 per cent with Sergio you appear to be
misrepresenting what I've understood him to say and thus sowing
confusion.
Again, Sergio would you clarify. Is the tango taught by Susana Miller,
Cacho Dante, Alicia Pons, and Tete a style of tango developed in the
US and then taken back to BsAs and marketed there with direct lies,
which is what Derik seems to be claiming? I had understood the
apilado style to have been developed in one area of the city of BsAs.
Thank you.
Jonathan Thornton
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:58:09 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Direct Lies....
Dear Johnathan:
Is this US American "double speak" marketing language
or what? If you are saying in your own words below
that the Argentines do not know what the adjective
"milongero style tango" means and a minority of them
maybe even dance the style at all or know what it is,
then what we have here is a situation where there is
in fact a misrepresentation, a lie or a fraud, by
tango teachers who teach this style. Why would I want
to spend my money to learn a dance that I am told is
authentic Argentine tango if I cannot dance it in
Buenos Aires with the locals? Hello???
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Jonathan Thornton <obscurebardo@gmail.com> wrote:
Again I understood Sergio to say that they don't use
the adjective milonguero to refer to the style but
that style does exist and is danced only not as much
as close embrace salon.
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:18:17 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Direct Lies....
I'm sorry, Derik, but I just do not take seriously any
posts from those who merely rant.
Have a nice day.
Trini
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Dear Trini:
>
> When one is told by tango teachers and their
> students
> that a specific version of tango, the so-called
> Milogero style, invented here in the US, is the only
> version that Argentines dance in Buenos Aires and
> one
> arrives in Buenos Aires to find out that Argentines
> dance salon style close embrace and do not know what
> Milongero style of tango means...THAT IS CALLED A
> DIRECT LIE!!!
>
> Also, when Tine and Jen finish drinking beer instead
> of Malbec and they dance the "rose in the teeth"
> tango
> style along with the Milongero style which is
> acceptable under their "anything goes rules of
> walking
> like a duck", then maybe they both will consider
> sometime going down to Buenos Aires for a year or so
> to live and dance with the locals...and maybe even
> learn their language, Argentine Spanish, before they
> teach more classes of Argentine Tango. I suggest
> that
> they stick with American Tango for the time being,
> especially if they are going to drink beer...lol.
>
> Sorry, but I could not resist.
>
> Look, I am an American and I love my country, but
> people here in the US all need to start learning
> about
> other cultures, instead of just doing the marketing
> thing on them all the time. The Argentines have
> steak. Why are we trying to sell them
> hamburger?????
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>
>
> --- Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > > Sometimes they sink to direct lies as in the
> case
> > > with Susana Miller and her
> > > Milonguero Style.
> >
> > Igor,
> >
> > I have to take issue with calling anyone's version
> > of
> > tango a lie. It is simply their truth, which
> might
> > not be your truth.
> >
> > As a beginning student, I asked my tango teacher
> > what
> > music to buy for practicing. He suggested Carlos
> > Gardel. Was he lying to me that Gardel made good
> > practice music? By the way, I enjoy Gardel's
> music,
> > but I would never suggest it for practicing.
> >
> > So many Argentines are passionate about their
> > version
> > of tango. After all, it is their personal
> artistic
> > expression. You may not like it or agree with it,
> > but
> > that doesn't make it a lie.
> >
> > Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
> >
> >
> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> > most popular social dance.
> > https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great
> > items.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Mail
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the
> tour:
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:14:35 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Direct Lies....
Dear Jonathan:
Below is Sergio's response from last night and I still
agree with him 100 per cent. The issue for me of
misrepresentation is that this so called Milonguero
style, if it exists at all, will not get you very far
as a tango dancer in Buenos Aires. It is extremely
limited in possibilities. It is perhaps a "dumbed
down version of salon style" for the US market. This
puts US Americans, who learn this Milongero style at a
distinct disadvantage when they try to dance with the
locals.
Example of a similar language fraud..
When I came back from high school in Europe, speaking
French fluently, I was making an "F" here in Houston
in French class. My mother, who was raised in Nice,
France went to speak with the woman teacher. My mom
found out that the lady spoke Cajun French and had
never been to France. That same year my local French
class went to Paris with her and the parents of all
the kids. When the group arrived, it had to hired a
tour guide to translate for them all, because of
course, no one in Paris could understand a word they
said. The parents were furious and they fired the
French teacher for misrepresenting her abilities. Her
response was that she did teach French, and she was
right, but the point was that the French she taught
was not useful in Paris. I would say the same thing
about Susan Miller's so called Milongero style tango.
It is interesting, and OK, but it is not very useful
in Buenos Aires. To me she and her teachers are
misrepresenting their abilities, just like my Cajun
French teacher. I want to learn French that I really
can use in Paris, just like I want to learn a tango
that I can really use in Buenos Aires. I do not want
to have to rely on a tour guide in either city. Thank
you.
From Sergio...
Salon contains everything that is present in
Milonguero and many things more are available for
those that are interested. Milonguero is more limited
by the necessity to maintain the close embrace and the
lack of space in a crowded floor .
Finally I said that "Milonguero" is a bad word to use
because in Argentina it means many different things.
It can be applied to any tango, any style, to any good
dancer, etc.
I hope that this answers Jonathan's question.
Good night, Sergio.
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:45:32 EDT
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Direct Lies....
Dear Derik and All:
After seeing the video of the dancers at "El Pial" which supposedly
represented the "real" Argentine tango dancing in Buenos Aires, I'd have to say there
isn't really any style of Argentine tango which truly represents Argentine
tango. After all these folks dancing at El Pial were from the older generation as
many of them were older than 60 years and have been dancing since their
teens. Their styles varied from close embrace (buttons to buttons) to close
embrace (offset with or without "v") and even several who danced in open embrace
(slight separation of the partners). I suspect each district of Buenos Aires has
it own characteristic dance style, much like dialects of a common language.
Having said all that, I have to also state that I was in Buenos Aires last
November for a month (for the first time) and I danced at the following places:
Salon Canning, La Confiteria Ideal, Club Espanol, El Beso, Porteno y Bailaren,
El Arranque, Salon Dandi, Nino Bien, and a couple of other places whose names
currently escape me (yes, I know, I've only scratched the surface of the
milonga scene there so I'll have to return), I'd have to say the styles danced at
these milongas I attended depends upon the type of dancers who frequent them.
Finally, none of the above mentioned styles I saw in the El Pial video or at
the milongas I attended in Buenos Aires differed greatly from the varied
styles of Argentine tango danced here in the SF bay area, with the exception that
nuevo tango is quite popular here (didn't see any in the milongas I frequented
in Buenos Aires due to the crowded conditions) and a sizeable number of
dancers here (may be 15 to 20%?) dance neuvo tango.
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 7/9/2005 08:15:03 Pacific Daylight Time,
rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM writes:
Dear Jonathan:
Below is Sergio's response from last night and I still
agree with him 100 per cent. The issue for me of
misrepresentation is that this so called Milonguero
style, if it exists at all, will not get you very far
as a tango dancer in Buenos Aires. It is extremely
limited in possibilities. It is perhaps a "dumbed
down version of salon style" for the US market. This
puts US Americans, who learn this Milongero style at a
distinct disadvantage when they try to dance with the
locals.
Example of a similar language fraud..
When I came back from high school in Europe, speaking
French fluently, I was making an "F" here in Houston
in French class. My mother, who was raised in Nice,
France went to speak with the woman teacher. My mom
found out that the lady spoke Cajun French and had
never been to France. That same year my local French
class went to Paris with her and the parents of all
the kids. When the group arrived, it had to hired a
tour guide to translate for them all, because of
course, no one in Paris could understand a word they
said. The parents were furious and they fired the
French teacher for misrepresenting her abilities. Her
response was that she did teach French, and she was
right, but the point was that the French she taught
was not useful in Paris. I would say the same thing
about Susan Miller's so called Milongero style tango.
It is interesting, and OK, but it is not very useful
in Buenos Aires. To me she and her teachers are
misrepresenting their abilities, just like my Cajun
French teacher. I want to learn French that I really
can use in Paris, just like I want to learn a tango
that I can really use in Buenos Aires. I do not want
to have to rely on a tour guide in either city. Thank
you.
From Sergio...
Salon contains everything that is present in
Milonguero and many things more are available for
those that are interested. Milonguero is more limited
by the necessity to maintain the close embrace and the
lack of space in a crowded floor .
Finally I said that "Milonguero" is a bad word to use
because in Argentina it means many different things.
It can be applied to any tango, any style, to any good
dancer, etc.
I hope that this answers Jonathan's question.
Good night, Sergio.
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 10:53:05 -0600
From: Ron Weigel <tango.society@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Direct Lies....
It is amazing to see all the strong emotional attacks on milonguero
style tango and the instructors of this style, as though instructors
of this style were snake oil salesmen. One need only take a trip to
Buenos Aires to see that it is indeed a legitimate style of dancing
tango. No one teaching this style is selling a misrepresentation of
tango. Is it the predominant style danced in the milongas of Buenos
Aires? Maybe not. However, one would need to conduct an objective
scientific survey of dance styles to determine what is the predominant
style. (Trained as a human ethologist, I can offer advice if someone
wants to conduct this survey.) I imagine the biggest problem one would
encounter is developing style categories. There is variation in the
orientation of partners, buttons-to-buttons, offset to the man's right
(in varying degrees), from completely closed to varying degrees of
opening in a V-frame, to open embraces at varying distances. There are
differences in whether in walking forward the heel touches the floor
first, or the metatarsals, and in walking backwards the heel touches
the floor not. There are differences in the angle of lean in the
embrace; etc. If one calls milonguero style only that style where the
embrace is buttons-to-buttons, there is a forward lean, the heel
touches the floor first in walking forward, and salon style represents
everything else, then off course salon style will be the predominant
style.
Of course, all of this typing is futile considering the many
dimensions along which tango styles can vary, and that much of the
variation along these dimension is fairly continuous, not distinctly
different. However, what is distinctly different in Buenos Aires is
that there is a social form of tango and there is a tango for the
stage. All social forms of tango are characterized by a more or less
close embrace, compact movements and subtle adornments. Tango for
the stage has large movements, an open embrace, and conspicuous
adornments. The difference in clear. There is one kind of tango for
the stage and another kind for social dancing.
However, in the US, it is different. The predominant social form of
tango resembles tango for the stage. The reason this is so is because
tango instructors, mostly stage performers from Argentina, have taught
this style to Americans hungry to learn tango. Only upon visiting
Buenos Aires did Americans learn that this style of tango they were
taught and using for social dancing was not a style of dancing tango
at the milongas in Buenos Aires. Are the tango stage performers snake
oil salesmen? Maybe some are, perhaps most are not. If any case, they
are only responding to demand or the need to make a living, so I will
refrain from any personal attacks on any one of them.
I would like to propose a truce and a resolution. I have always
thought that 'milonguero style' tango was a good term to describe all
close embrace social styles of tango, because it represents the styles
of tango danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires, but this seems be
problematic because there are strong emotional reactions at both ends
of the tango style spectrum, from those who think it is snake oil to
those who say not all close embrace is milonguero style.
Despite the fact that the term 'salon tango' is commonly used in the
US to describe an open embrace style with large movements and
conspicuous adornments, I propose a rejection of this terminology
because it is inaccurate (a salon is a dance hall, not a stage) and
then propose that the term 'tango de salon' or 'salon tango' be used
to describe all styles of tango that are used in milongas in Buenos
Aires, recognizing that there is variation within this classification.
This would make all but the diehard stylistic purists happy. Then we
can call the style of tango always danced in an open embrace with
large movements and conspicuous adornments 'tango fantasia'.
This means that the predominant form of dancing at the milongas in the
US is not 'tango de salon' as in Buenos Aires milongas, but rather
'tango fantasia', representing tango on the stage in Buenos Aires.
Ron
Urbana IL
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 18:33:03 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Direct Lies....
The interesting thing is that one of the people I've learned a lot
about tango from, Carlos Favre of Chicago, describes himself as a
dancer of "Tango de Salon", yet some people would describe him as
the "go-to guy for milonguero style tango" in Chicago.
Carlos does have a highly rhythmic style, and he dances in a very
tightly connected way, but he uses many figures people might regard
as not in the "milonguero" vocabulary: ochos with pivots, barridas,
paradas, and back sacadas to name a few. Also, I think he would
consider apilado style limiting. Many people might feel surprised
to see how just little space he needs, and that he can and will do
almost anything in double-time and syncopa as the music calls for.
If I had to draw a line WRT to tango, it would be a line between
"tango for social dancing" and "tango for the stage", and the way
I would make that distinction is to make comfort/connection and
athleticism/presentation opposite ends of a spectrum and draw a
line somewhere between them.
However, I want to be clear that stage tango has much to offer
social dance. I for one would find little attraction to a dance
that doesn't value elegance, and I believe "stage" dancers like
Pablo Veron have much to teach us about that.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
