3324  Dream World of Tango-BsAs "What you see and What you believe"

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:54:32 -0600
From: el turco <shusheta@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Dream World of Tango-BsAs "What you see and What you believe"

I spent my last 3 weeks in BsAs, from Club Espanol to Gay Milonga-La
Marshal, from Confiteria ideal to CETA- alternative milonga. Many
other venues were also in my list. Although I've got some invaluable
milonga recommendations, I happened to be around of mostly Argentine
dancers and some european tango teachers.

-here is the brief list of my observations and experiences in BsAs
regarding "what you see and what you believe"

tango market separated into 3 main branches in BsAs;
1. Modern Tango- (Salon style- Young Argentine crowd, europeans and
Asians, few Americans)

2. Apilado tango- fans of tango life style in late 40s and early 50s
(A.K.A milonguero fan clubs) (Mostly Americans and OLD Argentine
crowd)

3. Touristic Tango- tango dinner shows, not serious tango dancers or
newcomers to Tango)

The Last market is sometimes gets integrated with Modern Tango and
Apilado Tango. However the main target is touristic flavor of tango,
but not learning or school concept. Those, who sit all the time at
milonga venue, never attempt to dance are the target of Touristic
Tango market. (cheap music, cheap dancers and rose between teeth
concept are some of the keywords of this market).

####################################################################
The second Market is Apilado (close embrace style) most of the time,
pronounced as conjunction with milonguero fan clubs) attracts mostly
Americans, and the demographic distribution is very poor,almost no one
is under the age of 30.

Check this out, Americans dance close embrace different than
milongueros do. However mid-aged Argentine apilado style dancers also
vary in terms of the way they dance and different from old
Milongueros. I couldn't find more than 5-6 MILONGUERAs at milongas.
You will find plenty of Old Argentine folks love to dance with
American ladies. Therefore, apilado tango market draws FEMALE tango
dancers more than guy dancers from US.

This market is actually working more efficiently than Modern Tango
market because
-Americans can go to BsAs easier than anyone else on this planet. I
met a Japanese girl at Salon Canning one night she told me that it
took 30h fly to come to BsAs from Japan. Australians and Eastern
europeans have the similar problem.

Another reason would be the "anti-CITA" or "anti- salon style/tango
nuevo" propaganda. However this propaganda is only valid in US not
even Canada. Therefore, mostly this market-(apilado tango) targets
Americans more efficiently. Keep in mind that Unfortunately this
market does NOT attract Argentines as much as Modern Tango market.
Gender ratio is of course dominated by Female tang dancers.

Another reason would be the low number of instructors doing the
business in Apilado style- Milonguero fan clubs. There are less than
well known 10 instructors in BsAs. (if you don't believe check el
tangauta and BA tango magazines.) Compared to Modern Tango the rates
of classes, private lessons can be much more expensive. Moreover,
WELCOME Milongas( US$20 entrada)- touristic tango field trips from US
are the main targets of this market.

Typically you pay $4 pesos to learn traspie for milonga from a young
local tango instructor, but you pay $10 pesos to learn how to do ocho
cortados in close embrace.Of course, this doesn't mean anything bad or
good. (just a market choice comparison.)

Diversity in this market is quite POOR. mostly you will be able to
dance like someones particular style.
Close embrace style is well diversed in US from any other place on the
planet. Which is a good sign of culture of close embrace tyle.
###################################################################
Modern Tango Market is the most famous- locally and globally known
market. The diversity is Quite HIGH, the rates can be really low or
really high. Mostly this market attracts Europeans, Asians and
Argentines along with FEW Americans.

Hundreds of names that you can find to learn tango from, many
different styles, different expertise areas (milonga traspie,
candombera), canyengue, follower's technique, leader's technique,
musicality, vals, body awareness etc.)



What i witnessed in BsAs is that regular folks of milonga nights-
local Argentines, are studying mostly Modern Tango- Salon Style. Wed
and Fri nights they have tango class at La Viruta, go and check how
many people are foreigners. you will see hundreds of regular Argentine
people, but few may be 1-2 foreigners out of couple hundreds. On the
other hand,Check Confiteria ideal Wed night, even the host announces
everything in English, the class?my goodness, full of foreigners, NO
argentines.

To sum up, This posting, originally, was sent to TANGO NOTICIAS,
Chicago's online tango talk forum, some friends told me that I should
share this posting with more people. Each market has pros/cons
depends on your demand, and dance personalities. I might be mistaken
about some points that i mentioned above,sorry for that. This posting
is a part of my BsAs trip notes.
Enjoy the diversity in Tango

Burak,
Minneapolis
www.tangoshusheta.com

Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:22:20 +0300
From: cella <cella@TTNET.NET.TR>
Subject: Re: Dream World of Tango-BsAs "What you see and What you believe"

I s this a market list?
market-L ?



----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Dream World of Tango-BsAs "What you see and What you
believe"

> I spent my last 3 weeks in BsAs, from Club Espanol to Gay Milonga-La
> Marshal, from Confiteria ideal to CETA- alternative milonga. Many
> other venues were also in my list. Although I've got some invaluable
> milonga recommendations, I happened to be around of mostly Argentine
> dancers and some european tango teachers.
>
> -here is the brief list of my observations and experiences in BsAs
> regarding "what you see and what you believe"
>
> tango market separated into 3 main branches in BsAs;
> 1. Modern Tango- (Salon style- Young Argentine crowd, europeans and
> Asians, few Americans)
>
> 2. Apilado tango- fans of tango life style in late 40s and early 50s
> (A.K.A milonguero fan clubs) (Mostly Americans and OLD Argentine
> crowd)
>
> 3. Touristic Tango- tango dinner shows, not serious tango dancers or
> newcomers to Tango)
>
> The Last market is sometimes gets integrated with Modern Tango and
> Apilado Tango. However the main target is touristic flavor of tango,
> but not learning or school concept. Those, who sit all the time at
> milonga venue, never attempt to dance are the target of Touristic
> Tango market. (cheap music, cheap dancers and rose between teeth
> concept are some of the keywords of this market).
>
> ####################################################################
> The second Market is Apilado (close embrace style) most of the time,
> pronounced as conjunction with milonguero fan clubs) attracts mostly
> Americans, and the demographic distribution is very poor,almost no one
> is under the age of 30.
>
> Check this out, Americans dance close embrace different than
> milongueros do. However mid-aged Argentine apilado style dancers also
> vary in terms of the way they dance and different from old
> Milongueros. I couldn't find more than 5-6 MILONGUERAs at milongas.
> You will find plenty of Old Argentine folks love to dance with
> American ladies. Therefore, apilado tango market draws FEMALE tango
> dancers more than guy dancers from US.
>
> This market is actually working more efficiently than Modern Tango
> market because
> -Americans can go to BsAs easier than anyone else on this planet. I
> met a Japanese girl at Salon Canning one night she told me that it
> took 30h fly to come to BsAs from Japan. Australians and Eastern
> europeans have the similar problem.
>
> Another reason would be the "anti-CITA" or "anti- salon style/tango
> nuevo" propaganda. However this propaganda is only valid in US not
> even Canada. Therefore, mostly this market-(apilado tango) targets
> Americans more efficiently. Keep in mind that Unfortunately this
> market does NOT attract Argentines as much as Modern Tango market.
> Gender ratio is of course dominated by Female tang dancers.
>
> Another reason would be the low number of instructors doing the
> business in Apilado style- Milonguero fan clubs. There are less than
> well known 10 instructors in BsAs. (if you don't believe check el
> tangauta and BA tango magazines.) Compared to Modern Tango the rates
> of classes, private lessons can be much more expensive. Moreover,
> WELCOME Milongas( US$20 entrada)- touristic tango field trips from US
> are the main targets of this market.
>
> Typically you pay $4 pesos to learn traspie for milonga from a young
> local tango instructor, but you pay $10 pesos to learn how to do ocho
> cortados in close embrace.Of course, this doesn't mean anything bad or
> good. (just a market choice comparison.)
>
> Diversity in this market is quite POOR. mostly you will be able to
> dance like someones particular style.
> Close embrace style is well diversed in US from any other place on the
> planet. Which is a good sign of culture of close embrace tyle.
> ###################################################################
> Modern Tango Market is the most famous- locally and globally known
> market. The diversity is Quite HIGH, the rates can be really low or
> really high. Mostly this market attracts Europeans, Asians and
> Argentines along with FEW Americans.
>
> Hundreds of names that you can find to learn tango from, many
> different styles, different expertise areas (milonga traspie,
> candombera), canyengue, follower's technique, leader's technique,
> musicality, vals, body awareness etc.)
>
>
>
> What i witnessed in BsAs is that regular folks of milonga nights-
> local Argentines, are studying mostly Modern Tango- Salon Style. Wed
> and Fri nights they have tango class at La Viruta, go and check how
> many people are foreigners. you will see hundreds of regular Argentine
> people, but few may be 1-2 foreigners out of couple hundreds. On the
> other hand,Check Confiteria ideal Wed night, even the host announces
> everything in English, the class?my goodness, full of foreigners, NO
> argentines.
>
> To sum up, This posting, originally, was sent to TANGO NOTICIAS,
> Chicago's online tango talk forum, some friends told me that I should
> share this posting with more people. Each market has pros/cons
> depends on your demand, and dance personalities. I might be mistaken
> about some points that i mentioned above,sorry for that. This posting
> is a part of my BsAs trip notes.
> Enjoy the diversity in Tango
>
> Burak,
> Minneapolis
> www.tangoshusheta.com
>
>

Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:04:20 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dream World of Tango-BsAs "What you see and What you believe"

Dear Barak:

"Check this out, Americans dance close embrace
different than milongueros do."

Very interesting observations. Sounds right to me.
You did a great job. Marketing is studying the "real
facts on the ground". It is the "reality" of the
situation. Propaganda is not reality. It is just "the
hype" put out by promoters. God knows we have a lot of
promoters here in the US selling stuff which is just
not true. Thank you for you insight direct from
Buenos Aires.

Derik

--- el turco <shusheta@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> I spent my last 3 weeks in BsAs, from Club Espanol
> to Gay Milonga-La
> Marshal, from Confiteria ideal to CETA- alternative
> milonga. Many
> other venues were also in my list. Although I've got
> some invaluable
> milonga recommendations, I happened to be around of
> mostly Argentine
> dancers and some european tango teachers.
>
> -here is the brief list of my observations and
> experiences in BsAs
> regarding "what you see and what you believe"
>
> tango market separated into 3 main branches in BsAs;
> 1. Modern Tango- (Salon style- Young Argentine
> crowd, europeans and
> Asians, few Americans)
>
> 2. Apilado tango- fans of tango life style in late
> 40s and early 50s
> (A.K.A milonguero fan clubs) (Mostly Americans and
> OLD Argentine
> crowd)
>
> 3. Touristic Tango- tango dinner shows, not serious
> tango dancers or
> newcomers to Tango)
>
> The Last market is sometimes gets integrated with
> Modern Tango and
> Apilado Tango. However the main target is touristic
> flavor of tango,
> but not learning or school concept. Those, who sit
> all the time at
> milonga venue, never attempt to dance are the target
> of Touristic
> Tango market. (cheap music, cheap dancers and rose
> between teeth
> concept are some of the keywords of this market).
>
>

####################################################################

> The second Market is Apilado (close embrace style)
> most of the time,
> pronounced as conjunction with milonguero fan clubs)
> attracts mostly
> Americans, and the demographic distribution is very
> poor,almost no one
> is under the age of 30.
>
> Check this out, Americans dance close embrace
> different than
> milongueros do.

Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:17:46 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Dream World of Tango-BsAs "What you see and What you believe"

Hello Burak!

An absolutely fascinating post - I can validate many of your observations
from our own visits there (six weeks over the last five months). I
especially want to validate your general market breakdown - with the
exception that younger American dancers also tend to mix in with the young
Argentine/European/Salon "Modern Tango" crowd a lot (Monday nights at
Luciana/Dina/Valencia's El Motivo practica, followed by Canning, for
example).

I can also validate your observation about tango instruction style ratios in
BsAs, according to my own analysis of El Tangauta and B.A. Tango magazines
over the course of a year or so. More soon, from my own notes...and thanks
again for a great post.

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com



-----Original Message-----

Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 10:55 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Dream World of Tango-BsAs "What you see and What you
believe"


I spent my last 3 weeks in BsAs, from Club Espanol to Gay Milonga-La
Marshal, from Confiteria ideal to CETA- alternative milonga. Many
other venues were also in my list. Although I've got some invaluable
milonga recommendations, I happened to be around of mostly Argentine
dancers and some european tango teachers.

-here is the brief list of my observations and experiences in BsAs
regarding "what you see and what you believe"

tango market separated into 3 main branches in BsAs;
1. Modern Tango- (Salon style- Young Argentine crowd, europeans and
Asians, few Americans)

2. Apilado tango- fans of tango life style in late 40s and early 50s
(A.K.A milonguero fan clubs) (Mostly Americans and OLD Argentine
crowd)

3. Touristic Tango- tango dinner shows, not serious tango dancers or
newcomers to Tango)

The Last market is sometimes gets integrated with Modern Tango and
Apilado Tango. However the main target is touristic flavor of tango,
but not learning or school concept. Those, who sit all the time at
milonga venue, never attempt to dance are the target of Touristic
Tango market. (cheap music, cheap dancers and rose between teeth
concept are some of the keywords of this market).

####################################################################
The second Market is Apilado (close embrace style) most of the time,
pronounced as conjunction with milonguero fan clubs) attracts mostly
Americans, and the demographic distribution is very poor,almost no one
is under the age of 30.

Check this out, Americans dance close embrace different than
milongueros do. However mid-aged Argentine apilado style dancers also
vary in terms of the way they dance and different from old
Milongueros. I couldn't find more than 5-6 MILONGUERAs at milongas.
You will find plenty of Old Argentine folks love to dance with
American ladies. Therefore, apilado tango market draws FEMALE tango
dancers more than guy dancers from US.

This market is actually working more efficiently than Modern Tango
market because
-Americans can go to BsAs easier than anyone else on this planet. I
met a Japanese girl at Salon Canning one night she told me that it
took 30h fly to come to BsAs from Japan. Australians and Eastern
europeans have the similar problem.

Another reason would be the "anti-CITA" or "anti- salon style/tango
nuevo" propaganda. However this propaganda is only valid in US not
even Canada. Therefore, mostly this market-(apilado tango) targets
Americans more efficiently. Keep in mind that Unfortunately this
market does NOT attract Argentines as much as Modern Tango market.
Gender ratio is of course dominated by Female tang dancers.

Another reason would be the low number of instructors doing the
business in Apilado style- Milonguero fan clubs. There are less than
well known 10 instructors in BsAs. (if you don't believe check el
tangauta and BA tango magazines.) Compared to Modern Tango the rates
of classes, private lessons can be much more expensive. Moreover,
WELCOME Milongas( US$20 entrada)- touristic tango field trips from US
are the main targets of this market.

Typically you pay $4 pesos to learn traspie for milonga from a young
local tango instructor, but you pay $10 pesos to learn how to do ocho
cortados in close embrace.Of course, this doesn't mean anything bad or
good. (just a market choice comparison.)

Diversity in this market is quite POOR. mostly you will be able to
dance like someones particular style.
Close embrace style is well diversed in US from any other place on the
planet. Which is a good sign of culture of close embrace tyle.
###################################################################
Modern Tango Market is the most famous- locally and globally known
market. The diversity is Quite HIGH, the rates can be really low or
really high. Mostly this market attracts Europeans, Asians and
Argentines along with FEW Americans.

Hundreds of names that you can find to learn tango from, many
different styles, different expertise areas (milonga traspie,
candombera), canyengue, follower's technique, leader's technique,
musicality, vals, body awareness etc.)



What i witnessed in BsAs is that regular folks of milonga nights-
local Argentines, are studying mostly Modern Tango- Salon Style. Wed
and Fri nights they have tango class at La Viruta, go and check how
many people are foreigners. you will see hundreds of regular Argentine
people, but few may be 1-2 foreigners out of couple hundreds. On the
other hand,Check Confiteria ideal Wed night, even the host announces
everything in English, the class?my goodness, full of foreigners, NO
argentines.

To sum up, This posting, originally, was sent to TANGO NOTICIAS,
Chicago's online tango talk forum, some friends told me that I should
share this posting with more people. Each market has pros/cons
depends on your demand, and dance personalities. I might be mistaken
about some points that i mentioned above,sorry for that. This posting
is a part of my BsAs trip notes.
Enjoy the diversity in Tango

Burak,
Minneapolis
www.tangoshusheta.com

Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:47:09 -0800
From: Tanguera Alegra <tanguers_alegra@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Dream World of Tango-BsAs "What you see and What you believe"

You state this as a fact, but it's your belief/opinoin/whatever. I was under the impression that salon was an adaptation that was made when tango was introduced to the middle classes so it was acceptable dance for their daughters to engage in.
Your entire argument rests on your ( highly debatable ) assumption.


We must remember that Salon is the root, the mother of tango. The other sub
styles developed as an adaptation to small dancing space
(apilado-milonguero) or as a preference in a selection of certain figures or
steps already present in salon.


Do not write to me personally, unless requested. All other mail will be deleted, unread.

Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:11:09 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Dream World of Tango-BsAs "What you see and What you believe"

In reference to the following post:
<We must remember that Salon is the root, the mother of tango. The other sub
styles developed as an adaptation to small dancing space
(apilado-milonguero) or as a preference in a selection of certain figures or
steps already present in salon.>

My 2 cents:

Not really, Tango is the son of the Milonga and therefore the Milonga is the
Tango's mother. There is enough ammunition to prove this.

Best regards,

Bruno