1951  Flame Wars - Part X

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:16:28 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Flame Wars - Part X

Dear Tangueros and Tangueras,

I am a social person and I'm used to things like open or "under-the-grass" fights, accusations, gossips etc. most people dispise. =
However, the rules of this list DO forbid flame wars (internet lingo: attacking, insulting a certain person (and NOT his/her opinion) on an =
open forum - or something like it).

Of course, apparently, nobody is enforcing this rule.

I'd suggest that the parties in disagreement should cease all hostilities or try to bring up at least a non-offtopic subject over =
which they can kill each other.

I really get new and valuable information through this list, I'd hate if some people would stop sending their valuable comments because of a =
flame war.

Such fights resemble the Hungarian Parliament to me (I am Hungarian BTW), where it required a separate regulation to force MPs to =
participate in sessions, as previously most sessions were done with less than half the house present - because of unending personal accusations =
and the responses for these accusations.

Best regards,
Aron

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 04:36:02 -0800
From: Catrina Imports <catrinaimports@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Flame Wars - Part X

--- Ecsedy_Aron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU> wrote:

>
> However, the rules of this list DO forbid
> flame wars (internet lingo:
> attacking, insulting a certain person (and
> NOT his/her opinion) on an open forum -
> or something like it).

In fact, those rules are found here:
https://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~garrit/tango/tl_use.html

1-b and 3-a discuss flames, sarcasm and attacks.

> Of course, apparently, nobody is enforcing
> this rule.

And that's sad. I'm in other large lists where the
rules are inforced, and things are so much smoother. A
higher % of people participate, perhaps because they
know they will not be insulted or belittled.


saludos,
Kate

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:25:48 -0500
From: white95r <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Flame Wars - Part X

----- Original Message -----

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:38:47 -0800
From: Catrina Imports <catrinaimports@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Flame Wars - Part X

Manuel,

Just to set the record straight, I'm not in favor of a
*censored* list of any kind. I just don't see the
point of having rules that aren't enforced.

saludos,
Kate

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:51:17 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Flame Wars - Part XI

Catrina wrote:
"I'm in other large lists where the
rules are inforced, and things are so much smoother. A
higher % of people participate, perhaps because they
know they will not be insulted or belittled."

Before this rule, there is the very first rule:
1. Relevance of Postings
- Tango related only

then she wrote:

> Manuel,
>
> Just to set the record straight, I'm not in favor of a
> *censored* list of any kind. I just don't see the
> point of having rules that aren't enforced.
>

Fine. Can we have rule Nr.1 enforced for a start, by you deciding to obey
it?

There is also Rule Nr. 3:
- Don't monopolize the list

Today I had about 4 postings from Dirk Bakker, and about 5 postings from
Catrina Imports in my mailbox. As the idea of "don't monopolise" is "no more
than 3-4 postings a week", this is clearly excessive. None of it was about
tango either. I received the suggestion to "use my delete button if I don't
like it". My finger is getting sore, and my patience short.

Astrid

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:08:45 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Flame Wars - Part X

As a longtime participant of Tango-L and a former moderator of the list, I
believe that voluntary compliance with the guidelines is better. Although
we all can make a case for light moderation and administration of the
rules

When I began working as a moderator, I saw moderation as a way to ensure
that the discussion on Tango-L was of high quality. My uninformed view
was that too little moderation led to abuses that discouraged
participation and that overly strict moderation also discourage a free
flow of ides. What I discovered is that moderators and list
administrators who are volunteers cannot help themselves but to be either
too absentee or too heavy handed. Moderation always discourages the free
flow of ideas (even in discussion groups that are officially unmoderated,
but the list owner offers negative comments on every contribution that
does not fawn all over him).

Look at your rules carefully. They would give a lot of latitude to
moderators. In addition, when Tango-L was moderated, the moderators
frequently received direct emails from members of the list demanding
sanctions against people who dared to make a contribution that was seen as
off-topic, too personal, etc. And believe me, there is a sufficient
number of people who are critical of almost any posting/poster to allow
for a very subtractive approach to moderating.

Under the rules of Tango-L and previous moderation, most of the discussion
about the Spanish language would have been banned as not sufficiently
related to Argentine tango. Claims that understanding Argentine Spanish
and Lunfardo are necessary to understand tango lyrics would not have been
accepted. Only a direct discussion of tango lyrics would have been
permitted.

Some may see Tango-L as having a problem when someone tries to dominate
the list or a bully shows up on the list and contributes material that is
off-topic, is a personal attack, etc. My strongest recommendation is to
do as Manuel suggests, ignore the contribution for the garbage that it is,
to delete it and not respond to it or take it too seriously. I delete
many of the posts on Tango-L without much more than a cursory look, and I
have a personal rule of not responding to posts made by some of the list
participants.

With best regards,
Steve

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:42:56 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Flame Wars - Part XI

As a longtime participant of Tango-L and a former moderator of the list, I
believe that voluntary compliance with the guidelines is better than
moderation. Although we all can make a case for light moderation and
administration of the rules, I do not think that volunteer moderation is
likely to produce such an outcome.

When I began working as a moderator, I saw moderation as a way to ensure
that the discussion on Tango-L was of high quality. My uninformed view
was that too little moderation led to abuses that discouraged
participation and that overly strict moderation also discourage a free
flow of ides. What I discovered is that moderators and list
administrators who are volunteers cannot help themselves but to be a bit
binary--either too absentee or too heavy handed. Moderation discourages
the free flow of ideas (even in discussion groups that are officially
unmoderated, but the list owner offers negative comments on every
contribution that does not fawn all over him).

Look at all the rules carefully. They would give a lot of latitude to
moderators. In addition, when Tango-L was moderated, the moderators
frequently received direct emails from members of the list demanding
sanctions against people who dared to make a contribution that was seen as
off-topic, too personal, etc. And believe me, there is a sufficient
number of people who are critical of almost any posting/poster to allow
for a very subtractive approach to moderating.

Under the rules of Tango-L and previous moderation, nearly all of the
discussion about the Spanish language would have been banned as not
sufficiently related to Argentine tango. Claims that understanding
Argentine Spanish and Lunfardo are necessary to understand tango lyrics
would not have been accepted. Only a direct discussion of tango lyrics
would have been permitted.

Some may see Tango-L as having a problem when someone tries to dominate
the list or a bully shows up on the list and contributes material that is
off-topic, is a personal attack, etc. My strongest recommendation is to
do as Manuel suggests, ignore the contribution for the garbage that it is,
to delete it and not respond to it or take it too seriously. I delete
many of the posts on Tango-L without much more than a cursory look, and I
have a personal rule of not responding to posts made by some of the list
participants.

With best regards,
Steve