1551 Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:48:43 +0100
From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM>
Subject: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Surely travel writing is the hardest genre to write well and I think some of the criticism that has gone before has not considered the =
difficulty of this and credited the efforts of the author.
Pure description without some subjective judgement would be dull in the extreme.
The luxury of invention to the fiction writer is not available to the foreign correspondent.
Striking a balance between wit, fact, engaging the reader's interest, without becoming boring is a challenge. Injecting some humour, or wry =
observation, is welcome. To do this in written form without the benefit of vocal intonation, as say listening to Garrison Keillor, is not easy.
Facts only and it would be no more than a guide book. To avoid giving offence to the local inhabitants maybe desirable, but at the cost of =
truth? A skilful diplomatic line may be required, but I would prefer bold statement rather than self-censored platitudes and inanities.
I hear plenty of "from our own correspondent" stuff on TV and radio and it treads an uneasy and unhappy line between 'impartial observer' =
(There's no such thing as quantum mechanics has demonstrated) and the personality of the correspondent. I much prefer to hear about Rick's =
involvement with the place and the people, than to sanitise it and pretend that he's not there.
I enjoyed Rick's musings from his garret. It had a Beckettian quality with a splash of Sarte or maybe Hemingway
to paraphraseVoltaire,
"I may detest what you write but I would die for your right to express it"
( I don't detest it. )
Regards
Guy
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:44:01 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Guy Williams says:
"To avoid giving offence to the local inhabitants maybe desirable, but at
the cost of truth? A skilful diplomatic line may be required, but I would
prefer bold statement rather than self-censored platitudes and inanities."
I do not think that you have to avoid giving offence to the local
inhabitants, they want to know the true colors of your feelings as well,
you should report elements as you feel and as you see them.
You have an obligation to be accurate and true.
The problem arises when somebody tries to write about something that he does
not know and does not understand.
This is the case of Rick writing about Milonga codes in Buenos Aires. He has
no idea of what he is talking about, he relates what Alejandra has told him,
true facts that are filtered by the color of his ignorance.
Then I am faced with reading these reports as inaccurate as they may be and
I have the choice to let it go, as I have done many times before and
contemplate absurdities being written for days and weeks or to try to
correct the facts, evoking all sort of negative reactions of people that
wish things would be as Rick says. It does not matter that they are not. :))
One thing is to avoid offending the local inhabitants an another quite
different is to propagate facts that are not true.
Or not?
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:26:10 +0100
From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM>
Subject: Re: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Sergio wrote
> One thing is to avoid offending the local inhabitants an another quite
> different is to propagate facts that are not true.
>
> Or not?
>
> A tricky one to answer, since if this is Rick's understanding or
perception then is it not true is his eyes?
It carries an ethical dimension in that there may consequences in saying
what is untrue even if you believe it. I am against gossip, rumour and
speculation, particularly about specific individuals or 'hearsay'.
Surely we are also responsible for our own conclusions from what we are told
and to measure that against what we perceive. Our understanding of anything
changes as we learn more. Our perceptions are not fixed. Our perceptions may
be mistaken but they can be modified as we see things in a new light.
Are we expecting the highest journalistic standards in these communications?
I don't think so. Most things said should be taken in good faith, but
occasionally also with a pinch of salt.
There is the philosophical side
"Do not say untruthful things. Do not spread news that you do not know to be
certain. Do not condemn or critcise that you are not sure of. Do not utter
words that cause division and hatred, that can create discord and cause the
family or community to break. All efforts should be made to reconcile and
resolve all conflicts"
The Fourth Precept
Thich Nhat Hanh
and also
"Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changless, absolute
truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and
practice non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others'
viewpoints.. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge.
Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in
yourself and in the world at all times."
Thich Nhat Hanh again (2nd precept of the Order of Interbeing)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:36:26 -0700
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Guy,
Your post was very eloquently written. I agree with it
whole-heartedly.
Best,
Leopoldo
--- Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM> wrote:
> Surely travel writing is the hardest genre to write
> well and I think some of the criticism that has gone
> before has not considered the difficulty of this and
> credited the efforts of the author.
> Pure description without some subjective judgement
> would be dull in the extreme.
> The luxury of invention to the fiction writer is not
> available to the foreign correspondent.
> Striking a balance between wit, fact, engaging the
> reader's interest, without becoming boring is a
> challenge. Injecting some humour, or wry
> observation, is welcome. To do this in written form
> without the benefit of vocal intonation, as say
> listening to Garrison Keillor, is not easy.
> Facts only and it would be no more than a guide
> book. To avoid giving offence to the local
> inhabitants maybe desirable, but at the cost of
> truth? A skilful diplomatic line may be required,
> but I would prefer bold statement rather than
> self-censored platitudes and inanities.
> I hear plenty of "from our own correspondent" stuff
> on TV and radio and it treads an uneasy and unhappy
> line between 'impartial observer' (There's no such
> thing as quantum mechanics has demonstrated) and the
> personality of the correspondent. I much prefer to
> hear about Rick's involvement with the place and the
> people, than to sanitise it and pretend that he's
> not there.
>
> I enjoyed Rick's musings from his garret. It had a
> Beckettian quality with a splash of Sarte or maybe
> Hemingway
> to paraphraseVoltaire,
> "I may detest what you write but I would die for
> your right to express it"
>
> ( I don't detest it. )
>
> Regards
>
> Guy
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:40:45 -0700
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
--- Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM> wrote:
>
> "Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is
> changless, absolute
> truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to
> present views. Learn and
> practice non-attachment from views in order to be
> open to receive others'
> viewpoints.. Truth is found in life and not merely
> in conceptual knowledge.
> Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to
> observe reality in
> yourself and in the world at all times."
>
Thanks again Guy for a terrific contribution. I think
that most people from this list will benefit from
reading the above paragraph several times. But again,
that's just my perception...
Best,
Leopoldo
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:14:38 -0700
From: John Taylor <gancho2004@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Guy Williams very eloquent note:
> "Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is
> changless, absolute
> truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to
> present views. Learn and
> practice non-attachment from views in order to be
> open to receive others'
> viewpoints.. Truth is found in life and not merely
> in conceptual knowledge.
> Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to
> observe reality in
> yourself and in the world at all times."
I do not think that anybody said that knowledge is changeless, absolute truth.
Nobody said that it was possible to know the truth.
Nobody said that you stop learning and persist in erroneous belief.
What it was said (IMO) was that the perception of a fact has to agree with the reality, at the moment when the fact is perceived. At that particular moment the truth is absolute.
If you have a perception of a fact that does not correspond to reality then you perception, that seems to be truthful to you is erroneous.
Those that go to Buenos Aires are a small fraction of the tango community. They are very limited when it comes to understanding certain cultural facts.
They are mere tourists with a map under their arm.
There is enough nonsense, misinterpretations and ignorance already in this list to encourage propagation of misleading, subjective interpretations of reality.
I have been there many times and I am still trying to grasp the truth, specially the secret codes that rule the milongas.
I would like someone to explain to me, as I am unable to understand, what could possibly be the benefit of such erroneous, subjective information .
I wait for your answer.
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 00:49:41 +0000
From: ahshol Kahn <kahn44@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
I would like to express my subjective views of some facts.
Argentina is a very small country, it is situated in Asia. Tango did not
originate in Buenos Aires, it originated in Casablanca, Morocco.
Argentineans do not like to eat meat.
The population here is 50% black, 40%indian and 10% white. They are very
ugly and fat.
Men do not show respect for women and are not very masculine. Women are not
feminine.
Nobody dances tango anymore. They all dance Polka.
Nobody smokes at the milongas.
Cost of living is very expensive.
Be patient that I will continue with some more subjective truth. Remember
keep an open mind, you are always learning.
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:28:12 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Guy Williams quotes:
"There is the philosophical side
"Do not say untruthful things. Do not spread news that you do not know to be
certain. Do not condemn or criticize that you are not sure of. Do not utter
words that cause division and hatred, that can create discord and cause the
family or community to break. All efforts should be made to reconcile and
resolve all conflicts"
I entirely agree with Guy Williams, and also with Andy Ungureanu.
I am very conscious of the limitations of our perceptions to get to know the
absolute truth.
John Taylor's interpretation of my note is correct.
I was referring to a correlation of reality and perception at the moment of
the evaluation.
We precisely differentiates between a normal person and a psychotic (crazy)
one on that basis.
If a person has good judgment of reality he is not crazy. If he has no good
judgment of reality then he is crazy.
If there are no sounds but I hear them in my head they are real and truthful
to me but these perceptions are not true, they are called hallucinations (a
symptom of craziness). If I see a shadow behind a tree and I believe that
there is a man hidden behind the tree but actually nobody is there.
Then my perception does not correlate with the truth, I have an Illusion (a
trick my senses play on me). When I talk about things that I do not clearly
understand I could be wrong. But apparently it does not matter . Who
ares! - Let's keep an open mind.
Having said this I would like to beg Rick to continue writing from Buenos
Aires. I will not comment on his future notes.
This is my last one on this subject.
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:41:05 +0100
From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM>
Subject: Re: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Sergio wrote
<But apparently it does not matter . Who
cares! >
I for one.
I do not know much about these codes except what I have been told by friends
who have visited Bs As.
I cannot say if Rick understands them since I do not know what they are.
My impression from what was he has written was that he believed he did, and
that he thought that the behaviour of those other gentlemen did not adhere
to the codes and that how he describes Alejandra reaction which implies she
believed something similar.
Since I do not know what the other gentleman were thinking , nor Alejandra
and no-one has explained why this may be a misunderstanding except that Rick
is an foreignor and therefore ignorant what should I conclude? But I
understand that this is not his first visit.
Rick has expressed some reservations about Notes from BsAs 9 but that seems
to have been overlooked.
Are Argentians tolerant of visitors who are not familiar with the codes? Are
they secret, or simply everyone local knows them?
I think Rick is being judged harshly and I would like him to continue to
write about his observations.
sincerely
Guy
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:25:32 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Dear All,
Well it seems to me that Rick aquired a bad case of BA Burnout starting
about post # 9 and some time spent in tranquil Uruquay is just what the
doctor ordered. And he went on a few flights of fancy. But to jump on him
for daring to mention that there are some bad actors in our favorite city,
some of whom are major players in our favorite game, is naive. Sergio, whose
posts I enjoy, is I believe from Mar del Plata (please correct me if that's
not true). I won't disturb you all with my experiences of major players from
our favorite city saying extremely rude, ignorant and insulting things about
dancers from Mar del Plata (generic and specific) whom they had never met.
Or with bad behavior at milongas and exhibitions by professional tango
dancers whose names you would all recognize. Such that I was embarrassed to
be sitting with them.
I am not joining Steve Hoffman in BA bashing. Having spent, all told,
approximately 6 months there over a period of 12 years, my husband and I
adore the city and have always had a wonderful time, before we understood
the codigos and as we were (and are) learning more about them.
But it should not come as a shock that all is not sweetness and light
in any city or among any group of people. And having observed mores and
folkways in various artists and writers colonies, it appears that greater
the common interest among a given group, the more one finds petty squables,
childish behavior, and flaming jealousies.
So the codigos of tango on its native turf are in place to smooth the
way, to protect the egos and privacy of both men and women, and they are
sometimes rudely broken or used to hurt.
I found Rick's observations about them most thorough and realistic and
am looking forward to his future Notes. I hope he will not be discouraged
by the List's over-reaction to his negative or off-the-wall commentaries,
and will resume his role as Our Faithful Correspondant (and thank you,
Alejandra!)
Abrazos,
Barbara
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
> Sergio wrote
>
> <But apparently it does not matter . Who
> cares! >
>
> I for one.
>
> I do not know much about these codes except what I have been told by
friends
> who have visited Bs As.
> I cannot say if Rick understands them since I do not know what they are.
> My impression from what was he has written was that he believed he did,
and
> that he thought that the behaviour of those other gentlemen did not adhere
> to the codes and that how he describes Alejandra reaction which implies
she
> believed something similar.
> Since I do not know what the other gentleman were thinking , nor Alejandra
> and no-one has explained why this may be a misunderstanding except that
Rick
> is an foreignor and therefore ignorant what should I conclude? But I
> understand that this is not his first visit.
> Rick has expressed some reservations about Notes from BsAs 9 but that
seems
> to have been overlooked.
> Are Argentians tolerant of visitors who are not familiar with the codes?
Are
> they secret, or simply everyone local knows them?
>
> I think Rick is being judged harshly and I would like him to continue to
> write about his observations.
>
> sincerely
>
> Guy
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:25:05 -0700
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
I apologize in advance if this post seems a bit
irritable and edgy...
--- John Taylor <gancho2004@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
> What it was said (IMO) was that the perception of a
> fact has to agree with the reality, at the moment
> when the fact is perceived. At that particular
> moment the truth is absolute.
>
> If you have a perception of a fact that does not
> correspond to reality then you perception, that
> seems to be truthful to you is erroneous.
>
On truth and perception:
In my opinion, there's NO abosolute truth, only
perception (which is relative to who's doing the
perceiving). If you hear voices, and I don't, it does
not mean it does not exist. Reality is relative to the
person. Someone who is arrogant enough to presume that
his reality is the absolute true reality is someone
I'd rather not converse with. If someone truly
believes in something from his/her experience, then
it's real for them.
>
> There is enough nonsense, misinterpretations and
> ignorance already in this list to encourage
> propagation of misleading, subjective
> interpretations of reality.
>
> I have been there many times and I am still trying
> to grasp the truth, specially the secret codes that
> rule the milongas.
>
On "secret codes", etc. in BsAs.
I think the problem that stems from the above
statement can be mostly attributed to people who
believes and seek the "absolute truth". I believe that
these people try to formulate an absolute
understanding and then try to propagate them. The
problem with this is that everything is relative and
subjective, so trying to make something relative be
absolute is a no-win situation.
I have to apologize in advance for making a gross
generalization, but I feel compel to. From my working
abroad within the US and travels through out different
US cities, I find that most people in the US tango
communities do not have that much experience in social
settings and/or social interactions. What I mean by
this is that most have not had experiences in
interacting in places where people go to meet other
people, like bars, clubs, large social scene (with
completely unrelated people). I feel that for many,
tango is there first social outlet and experience.
It's been my experience that the people most intrigued
by the so called "secret codes" or customs of BsAs are
those that have never really been to clubs and bars in
the US or elsewheres, where there are similar social
behaviors, patterns, and motives.
Dancers, milongueros, milongueras, DJs, bartenders,
patrons of the milonga down in BsAs are people too.
Yes, people, human beings in a social setting. There
were various reasons in which many customs were
developed and many various, and often different
reasons why they may be perpetuated today. But these
conducts, its motivations, and their behaviors have
many similarities with the behaviors in many clubs and
night spots from the 20's to now (in the US and other
large cities all over the world).
If there's one thing that's absolute, it's that
there's nothing absolute about human behavior. And if
you're truly, truly interested about the social
interactions in BsAs milongas (which is somewhat
different today than it was 60-80 years ago in the
frequented milongas), please, please, please take a
long extended trip there. And do not take anybody's
word as the absolute truth, just find out for yourself
through your perception. Again, this is if you're
truly, truly, truly interested.
Best,
Leopoldo
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:38:54 -0700
From: Striker <auto_d20@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Genre-Notes
Regarding what "absolute truth is", as the infamous
Shlickmeister (aka Bubba) once said, it depends on
what the meaning of the word "is" is.
Regarding why Steven Hoffman keeps coming back to
Argentina, obviously it's for the shoes.
Regarding the unsuccesful search for WMDs, I guess
it's not enough for you that the United Nations
experts now estimate that approximately 300,000 people
were buried in mass graves in Iraq.
Regarding Rick and Alejandra, it's a screenplay for a
remake of the "Last Tango in Paris" to be called the
"Last Gringo in Buenos Aires". The ending is very
funny.
Regarding "easy women" abandoning their boyfriends, I
believe someone had already answered this question
long time ago by saying that sex and alcohol were the
ways to get into the tango.
Regarding why salsa is more popular than tango, salsa
is for happy people, while tango is for people with
"problems".
El "Salsero" Duke.
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:56:26 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Interestingly people more readily understand if you do not speak their
language than if you do not observe their cultural norms. This has led to
the publication of a whole series of travel books titled Culture Shock:
France, Culture Shock: Switzerland, etc. I have not yet seen a book
called Culture Shock: Argentine Tango or even Culture Shock: Argentina.
Obviously such books would be very interesting an informative reading to
members of this list.
I think it is fairly clear that in Buenos Aires, Argentine Tango has
associated with it a subculture with cultural norms that differ somewhat
from the mainstream of the society in which it originates. It is not as
some would have us believe, a pure expression of Argentine culture. In
some quarters of Argentine society, tango is condemned as anti-family.
Some Argentine men are unwilling to learn to dance tango well because it
would be indicative that they are not serious persons. Some Argentine
women are unwilling to dance tango at whole because doing so would
indicate that they are of poor morals.
Of course, the Argentine culture and the tango subculture have problems.
Many of us know of at least one well-regarded tango dancer who is a coke
head who spends all of his time grabbing women without invitation. Is
that indicative of Argentine society as a whole or even of the tango
subculture? Certainly, it is not indicative of Argentine mores. Such
behavior is not acceptably Argentine. It may be more indicative of the
mores in the tango subculture that such behavior is widely known and
tolerated.
Nonetheless, a purely ethnocentric view of a culture or a subculture is
not a very informative way to dissect those problems. Ethnocentric
analysis is just comparing one set of cultural values against another. In
order to apply an absolute set of values, one must be able to climb to a
sufficiently high perspective so that one can distinguish absolute values
from relative values. In doing so, one might see how cultural values
shape a society or a subculture or maybe just get a nosebleed. ;-)
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Sent by: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
<TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
07/21/2003 10:25 AM
Please respond to Barbara Garvey
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Dear All,
Well it seems to me that Rick aquired a bad case of BA Burnout starting
about post # 9 and some time spent in tranquil Uruquay is just what the
doctor ordered. And he went on a few flights of fancy. But to jump on him
for daring to mention that there are some bad actors in our favorite city,
some of whom are major players in our favorite game, is naive. Sergio,
whose
posts I enjoy, is I believe from Mar del Plata (please correct me if
that's
not true). I won't disturb you all with my experiences of major players
from
our favorite city saying extremely rude, ignorant and insulting things
about
dancers from Mar del Plata (generic and specific) whom they had never met.
Or with bad behavior at milongas and exhibitions by professional tango
dancers whose names you would all recognize. Such that I was embarrassed
to
be sitting with them.
I am not joining Steve Hoffman in BA bashing. Having spent, all told,
approximately 6 months there over a period of 12 years, my husband and I
adore the city and have always had a wonderful time, before we understood
the codigos and as we were (and are) learning more about them.
But it should not come as a shock that all is not sweetness and light
in any city or among any group of people. And having observed mores and
folkways in various artists and writers colonies, it appears that greater
the common interest among a given group, the more one finds petty
squables,
childish behavior, and flaming jealousies.
So the codigos of tango on its native turf are in place to smooth the
way, to protect the egos and privacy of both men and women, and they are
sometimes rudely broken or used to hurt.
I found Rick's observations about them most thorough and realistic and
am looking forward to his future Notes. I hope he will not be discouraged
by the List's over-reaction to his negative or off-the-wall commentaries,
and will resume his role as Our Faithful Correspondant (and thank you,
Alejandra!)
Abrazos,
Barbara
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
> Sergio wrote
>
> <But apparently it does not matter . Who
> cares! >
>
> I for one.
>
> I do not know much about these codes except what I have been told by
friends
> who have visited Bs As.
> I cannot say if Rick understands them since I do not know what they are.
> My impression from what was he has written was that he believed he did,
and
> that he thought that the behaviour of those other gentlemen did not
adhere
> to the codes and that how he describes Alejandra reaction which implies
she
> believed something similar.
> Since I do not know what the other gentleman were thinking , nor
Alejandra
> and no-one has explained why this may be a misunderstanding except that
Rick
> is an foreignor and therefore ignorant what should I conclude? But I
> understand that this is not his first visit.
> Rick has expressed some reservations about Notes from BsAs 9 but that
seems
> to have been overlooked.
> Are Argentians tolerant of visitors who are not familiar with the codes?
Are
> they secret, or simply everyone local knows them?
>
> I think Rick is being judged harshly and I would like him to continue to
> write about his observations.
>
> sincerely
>
> Guy
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 02:06:18 EDT
From: Renaldo Leon <TangoOnBroadway@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Sergio wrote:
"Having said this I would like to beg Rick to continue writing from Buenos
Aires. I will not comment on his future notes.
This is my last one on this subject."
Sergio,
I think that it would be a great loss to lose your input and comments to the
list regarding Rick's notes or any other listings. Over the the past 4 years
I have found that your experiences and knowledge of the Argentine Culture,
Buenos Aires and Tango as a whole is invaluable.
Your opinions are some of the most qualified, authentic and helpful in
understanding the many things that make Tango and your beautiful city Buenos Aires
so great. My two visits to your great city in 2001 and this past January were
experienced just as you have described. I have found that if you engage with
the milongueros with open arms and respect and try to read up or understand
their traditions you will appreciate their country and culture and you will
receive the same in return. I certainly feel sorry for those whom visit your
great city and miss out on the connection of the "abrazos" that your people give
out.
Many of my fellow tangueros in the SF Bay Area have had quite different
experiences in Bs As than I have had. Some have a hard time believing me when I
return and express the great times and experiences that I have had. It is
almost like we visited two different planets.
Please keep writing for those of us whom appreciate your qualified slant on
these subjects.
Happy Tangoing,
Renaldo Leon
Lafayette, California
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:26:46 -0700
From: John Taylor <gancho2004@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
Leopoldo Botrico says:
"In my opinion, there's NO abosolute truth, only
perception (which is relative to who's doing the
perceiving). If you hear voices, and I don't, it does
not mean it does not exist. Reality is relative to the
person. Someone who is arrogant enough to presume that
his reality is the absolute true reality is someone
I'd rather not converse with. If someone truly
believes in something from his/her experience, then
it's real for them."
This form of thought kept people in the Middle Ages for 1000 years.
It can be used to justify anything. Even invading countries and killing thousands of innocent people.
So somebody hears voices and nobody else does. "It does not mean that they do not exist". :))
Here I can imagine two possibilities, 'Somebody' has good hearing and all the others are deaf or else 'somebody' is hallucinating.
Science has advanced enormously because it is based in true facts and experimentation.
You wish to say that there are voices, and nobody hears them? This is fine by me, but do not expect me to visit you at the mad house because you do not care to converse with me.
There is true and the opposite . Also lies. There is good and evil as well.
Some teenagers are somewhat confused at times but then they grow up.
Then we have to deal with: " On "secret codes", etc. in BsAs."
There are no "Secret Codes in the milongas". People there behave according to their standards, as they have been doing for generations . They are not secretive at all, they will readily explain to you anything that you wish to know. Their actions could be unusual to the American visitor and their motivations could remain a 'secret' to most of them as they are unable to understand that other cultures are different to their own.
Do I care to know about Rick's perceptions and interpretations, yes!!! - I certainly do.
It is fun. I placed a lot of salt by my computer, - Guy said to take it with a pinch of salt.
You can go to Buenos Aires for as long as you wish and remain an observer and an outsider in a culture that you do not understand or feel comfortable in.
Again, this is if you're
truly, truly, truly interested.
Please, please, please give me a break.
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:05:38 -0700
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Absolute Truth, was: Genre-Notes from Buenos Aires
I wrote:
>
> In my opinion, there's NO abosolute truth, only
> perception (which is relative to who's doing the
> perceiving).
>
--- John Taylor <gancho2004@YAHOO.COM> responded:
>
> This form of thought kept people in the Middle Ages
> for 1000 years.
> It can be used to justify anything. Even invading
> countries and killing thousands of innocent people.
>
??? How does the belief that truth is relative used to
justify going to war and killing people??? What is
your reasoning and logic behind this??? Why did you
think it was this belief that kept people in the
Middle Ages for 1000 years??? Logic please...
If you truly believe that truth is relative, you would
not discount some other person because he/she
disagrees with you. Because you would believe that
that person may really believe this as his/her
reality, and you would be more inclined to try to
connect and understand where the person is coming
from. It is more likely that there would be peace and
not war :)
If on the other hand, you believed in ABSOLUTE truth,
then you may think that your truth is the ABSOLUTE
truth, and the other person is completely wrong in
his/her views (and/or beliefs). And you would use this
to justify you waging war and killing people with.
From what you said in your post, I believe you would
fall in this category...
And you didn't relate your post to tango one bit. My
point is to have an open mind, and you won't have so
much bickering going on inside/outside of tango-L and
tango communities.
Then I wrote:
>
> So somebody hears voices and nobody else does. "It
> does not mean that they do not exist". :))
>
And John Taylor replied:
>
> Here I can imagine two possibilities, 'Somebody' has
> good hearing and all the others are deaf or else
> 'somebody' is hallucinating.
>
Ummm... again, I think you're being a bit
closed-minded. I presume you believe that you're so
called sane, and everything should be measured to you
and your standards?
Great music composers have the gift of hear music in
their heads. I don't mean just music but great
textures and harmonies. It has been recored that
Beethoven possessed this gift, although he became
virtually deaf. People who didn't understand him
discounted him as crazy (and I presume you would have
discounted him as insane).
There are very few people with perfect pitch and can
tell you if a note is in tune and what note it is.
Sound for them has a certain characteristic (a certain
color you could say as an anology). I doubt that you
have perfect pitch, so let's presume that you don't.
Just because someone can hear this aspect of the
sound, and you cannot, does that make them insane???
Some people are color-blind. They lack the ability to
see and differentiate certain colors. Just because two
colors seem different to me but it does not to them
(due to their color blindness), does that mean that
I'm insane and crazy???
Suppose you and I can recognize the same color
spectrum. You see a color most people would call red.
I see the same color. We only agree that this color is
called "red", but what we actually see & process in
our brain may be completely different. It may actually
be blue in your mind and green in mind, but the
pigment is consistent & we agree to call it "red". We
only know that we call a certain pigment a certain
term, we don't actually know what each one of us is
experiencing (eg, how our brain reacts to the cones
being excited, etc). Get my drift?
Kids who develop autism at a very early age, usually
do not develop the capacity for speech. But a recent
breakthrough, someone discovered an autistic kid from
India whom his relentless mother taught to read/write.
Autistic kids tend to move their body incontrollably.
I believe this is called stemming. Mothers of autistic
kids have always wondered why their children do this.
Most observers would just say that the kid is crazy,
etc. When someone ask the Indian kid why he stemmed,
he wrote that he does it in order to feel his body.
Otherwise he does not feel like he's there. Mothers
have always wondered why when they try to talk to
their autistic child, the child never look at them but
just stares into space. Most people would say that the
child is incapable of communication. When someone
asked the autistic Indian kid why, he wrote down that
it's hard for him to process visual and audio stimulus
at the same time (it's too much of an overload). So,
he looks away so that he can focus more on the audio
portion.
My point in all of this is just because you do not
understand someone does something, or sees, or hear
something should not arrive you directly to the
conclusion that that person is crazy, loco, etc.
Please don't project your views (your ABSOLUTE truth)
on other people. Try to keep an open mind and try to
relate and try to understand where the other person in
comming from. If you disagree, it's okay. Respect the
person if he/she truly believes what they say (and are
not trying to purposely decieve you). Disagreement is
okay, just an open mind would be nice, and I'm sure
with this, we're be discussing more interesting issues
in tango rather than bickering over petty ones.
John Taylor wrote:
>
> Science has advanced enormously because it is based
> in true facts and experimentation.
>
Oh before I go, I think that science has advance
because they constantly disprove their previous facts
:) If you need examples, I have many, just write me
privately and state which topic you're interested in.
The only thing that may be absolute is mathematical
logic, but that may be attributed to us defining the
realm of mathematical logic :)
John Taylor wrote:
>
> There is true and the opposite . Also lies. There
> is good and evil as well.
>
Ooops, I couldn't let this one go either. Sorry. I
don't think there's good and evil, as George Bush
seems to believe. The evilest, the axis of evil... he
likes to use. There's altruism, selfishness, and the
spectrum in-between. Good and evil is someone's
perception, it's not ABSOLUTE, unless you're from the
Bush camp... Ughhhh... I broke my rule of not ever
getting into political discussion. Sorry, couldn't
help it :(
Best,
Leopoldo
