1583 Growing communities: "Nuevo vs. Milonguero" or "Nuevo includes Milonguero"?
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:50:04 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Growing communities: "Nuevo vs. Milonguero" or "Nuevo includes Milonguero"?
El Duke wrote:
> How about a little less "milonguero" and a lot more "nuevo"?
Then Trini wrote:
> Been to Ann Arbor lately, which is strictly milonguero?
Before this turns into a style food-fight, it may be useful to clarify one
point, through a simple multiple-choice quiz:
Q: "Milonguero" is related to "Nuevo" as...
1) "Apples" are related to "Oranges"
2) "Apples" are related to "Fruit"
I think reasonably informed people can agree that 2) is the correct answer.
That is, "Nuevo", in its origins and ongoing development being an "approach
to tango inquiry" rather than a "style," transcends and includes
"Milonguero", but "Milonguero" neither transcends nor includes "Nuevo."
Hopefully, this offends no one while shedding some light on the discussion.
That is, I am certainly justified in choosing to do only the "Milonguero"
subset of "Nuevo," because that's what I like to dance, while still
acknowledging that one is contained within the other, but not vice versa.
"Nuevo" examines and analyzes "Milonguero," including it in its rightful and
deserved place within the "Styles" pantheon, and moves on to fresh inquiry
(volcadas, colgadas, etc.). "Milonguero" notes that it is uninterested in
things outside its self-chosen style boundaries, and is content.
Thus it seems that ANY strictly style-based system of learning or dancing
tango(such as ballroom or milonguero) will tend to be relatively static,
based as it is on ruling things out which don't suit the style, while ANY
strictly inquiry-based system such as Nuevo will tend to be relatively
dynamic, since it describes a method of looking at all styles. I do not
rank one approach above another - they both have their partial truths to
offer.
Deep tangos (of whatever style variant) to all,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:18:48 -0700
From: robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Nuevo vs. Milonguero
hi brian!
hoping above all hopes that this doesn't start a
boring debate about what is and isn't milonguero.
i don't think milonguero is static. every time susana
miller comes to visit she teaches steps that are now
in fashion amongst the old guys. they're still making
up new stuff. she's not researching into the past.
she's teaching what a bunch of old guys are doing
right now in places like el beso.
in ann arbor (whatever style you want to call the way
they dance) i'm sure you would feel pretty comfy. it's
a young (younger than us)and funky crowd, they dance a
lot to d'arienzo and tic-tic-tic music but to all
kinds of alternative stuff too. they just like to
dance close and in the line of dance without hurting
other people. it's more about hugging to music than it
is about preserving any tradition or trying to be
authentic.
robin
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:39:09 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Growing communities: "Nuevo vs. Milonguero" or "Nuevo includes Milonguero"?
"Strictly" was a poor word for me to use. I meant that they focus on
milonguero as opposed to the other three major families - salon,
fantasia, or nuevo. They have been doing some nuevo but only in the
context of milonguero as opposed to nuevo ala Pablo Veron.
My point was that one can attract and keep younger people without
flashy moves. Younger people socialize more and will bring their
friends in if they're having fun.
Trina of Pittsburgh
--- Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> wrote:
> El Duke wrote:
> > How about a little less "milonguero" and a lot more "nuevo"?
>
> Then Trini wrote:
> > Been to Ann Arbor lately, which is strictly milonguero?
>
> Before this turns into a style food-fight, it may be useful to
> clarify one
> point, through a simple multiple-choice quiz:
> Q: "Milonguero" is related to "Nuevo" as...
> 1) "Apples" are related to "Oranges"
> 2) "Apples" are related to "Fruit"
>
> I think reasonably informed people can agree that 2) is the correct
> answer.
>
.
>
> Thus it seems that ANY strictly style-based system of learning or
> dancing
> tango(such as ballroom or milonguero) will tend to be relatively
> static,
> based as it is on ruling things out which don't suit the style,
> while ANY
> strictly inquiry-based system such as Nuevo will tend to be
> relatively
> dynamic, since it describes a method of looking at all styles. I
> do not
> rank one approach above another - they both have their partial
> truths to
> offer.
>
> Deep tangos (of whatever style variant) to all,
>
> Brian Dunn
> Dance of the Heart
> Boulder, Colorado USA
> 1(303)938-0716
> https://www.danceoftheheart.com
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:26:53 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Nuevo vs. Milonguero
Robin wrote:
>>>
i don't think milonguero is static. every time susana
miller comes to visit she teaches steps that are now
in fashion amongst the old guys. they're still making
up new stuff.
<<<
Now this gets good. We're getting to "how does stuff become fashionable?",
which is maybe the root of all developmental questions in a folk dance like
tango.
It's been said that tango changes and grows because somebody tries something
noticeably different that they alone like. Think Bob Dylan going electric
at a high-profile folk festival (NOW I've dated myself). Most everybody
else points to it and says, Look at that, that's sh**. The heretic/explorer
perseveres, perhaps with a few adherents. Refinement, modification, further
development...eventually, some people still say Look at that, that's sh**.
But more and more others say, Yeah, but that sh** is COOL. Eventually, the
strongest detractors notice the shift happening, and jump on board by
adopting a variation of the sh**, but they "discovered" it, so now it's
THEIR COOL sh**. This way, everybody gets to save face, and the dance adds
something new.
To the degree that the old guys are inquiring, discovering, etc. they are
dynamically pushing the boundaries of the "milonguero" style, with whatever
creative tools they have available. To the degree that they are rejecting
particular moves as "not my style", "horribly ugly sh**," "violating the
spirit of tango," etc. they are letting their style constrain their (or
others') inquiry. At any given moment, as we dance, each of us is somewhere
on the continuum between these two perspectives, listening to both voices,
but sometimes more one than another.
It's fair to say that Nuevo Tango defined itself as an inquiry-based
approach from the beginning, because it inclusively assumed fewer
constraints. Certainly, the old guys continue their own form of inquiring
into new things, as they have for decades. Many of them may even find the
inquiry tools Gustavo et al. developed to be useful in doing that. Susana
Miller, as I understand, did lots of work with Gustavo and Fabian before
focusing herself more narrowly on what she called Milonguero (PLEASE correct
me if I am wrong). Gustavo has a group of senior dancers in BsAs whom he
finds to be among his most dedicated students. So I think it's fair to say
that Nuevo offers a "tango toolset," a perspective, that anyone can use to
improve their dancing, regardless of the exclusive style they prefer. In
that sense, Nuevo transcends and includes all styles.
What I'm trying to clarify is the difference between a style and an
approach, because it seems like people mix up the two a lot - usually by
calling "Nuevo" a style. I used to do that myself until I looked into it
more, about a year or so ago.
>>>
she's teaching what a bunch of old guys are doing
right now in places like el beso.
<<<
Wow, you raise a big point - whether a style is based on a particular set of
moves or constraints, or on whatever particular higi-profile individuals
choose to do.
I used to think milonguero meant ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY "small tango,"
rhythmic tiny things that could be done with grace and style even on very
crowded floors. But using Susana Miller's definition, namely, what these old
guys are actually doing today, what I saw in BsAs was different, and matches
what you're reporting, Robin. Some of the old guys, when they feel chipper,
do open it up when there's room, the right music and the right partner. In
fact, the single most identifiable piece of vocabulary that I saw,
EVERYWHERE I went in BsAs for a whole month (Canning, El Beso, El Arranque,
Nino Bien, etc - didn't make it to Sunderland this time, though) was a BIG
leaning calesita with the woman out at a 30-degree angle or so, used as a
way of turning the corner in the lane. Big showy move, not a volcada
really, but chests in contact, worked beautifully with the music, nobody
hurt or even bothered because of all the room available - but what I'd heard
of dancing in BsAs since I was last there (mostly on the list here) left me
surprised to see this big move there all the time.
I'm thinking that, based on my month of observing, what the milongueros are
best at is making the most of the situation wherever and whenever they
dance. They paint with a full palette. If there's room, they use it and
often enjoy showier stuff, to the limits of their ability. If there's no
room, they make the most of the small space. AS they get older, and their
physical abilities slowly decline in the face of age, their mastery of the
small intimate moves would, one expect, naturally become a larger and larger
fraction of their repertoire. That's probably worth bearing in mind as we
review their lifelong contributions to the dance - wish I had on tape what
these guys were doing when they were as young and feisty as the Ann Arbor
crowd. Speaking of which...
>>>
in ann arbor (whatever style you want to call the way they dance) i'm sure
you would feel pretty comfy...they just like to dance close and in the line
of dance without hurting other people.
<<<
Great! Sounds like good, considerate, well-mannered social tango to me,
totally independent of arbitrary style constraints, "prohibited" moves, or
other exclusionary complications. I hope I can visit sometime soon.
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:22:18 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Nuevo vs. Milonguero
Hi Everyone:
I agree with Brian Dunn that tango nuevo is a primarily an inquiry into
the possibilites of tango. Over recent years, however, nuevo has taken on
the dimensions of a style. As a style, nuevo is is danced in an open,
loose embrace with a very upright posture, and a great emphasis is placed
on dancers maintaining their own axes. Although the advocates of tango
nuevo emphasize a new structural analysis over specific figures, some of
its most identifiable figures are overturn ochos and change of directions
in turns, which are most easily accomplished in a loose embrace. Some
people have questioned the application of the term "nuevo" because none of
the individual movements lacked precedence in the tango. Nonetheless,
some of the combinations of movements in nuevo style would have been
considered unusual even as recently as five years ago.
As for whether, nuevo contains milonguero, I have to disagree a bit.
Milonguero-style tango is typically danced with an apilado embrace--that
is, with a slightly leaning posture that typically joins the torsos of the
two dancers from the tummy through the solar plexus while allowing a
little bit of distance between the couple's feet. The embrace is also
typically closed with the woman's right shoulder as close to her partner's
left shoulder as her left shoulder is to his right, and the woman's left
arm is often draped behind the man's neck. As Tom Stermitz has pointed
out numerous times, this embrace tends to move the axis of the dance into
the woman's body.
As experimentation continues, integration of milonguero into nuevo seem to
be occurring, but some people regard this as yet another style and calling
it liquid tango. Liquid tango has no set embrace. Dancers go back and
forth from the open loose embrace of nuevo and a soft apilado embrace.
As for Susana Miller returning from Buenos Aires with the newest
milonguero steps, I must express some skepticism about how new some of
these innovations really are. Some of the old milongueros* are
rediscovering old ideas that have been in tango for years. Last year,
everyone in North America was abuzz about two new movements that work well
in an apilado embrace--the colgada and the volcada. This is an example of
putting old wine in new bottles. Nito Garcia has used what is now being a
called colgada for years. Nora Dinzelbacher taught me what is now being
called a volcada about 8-9 years ago.
See you all in Denver, Labor Day Weekend
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
*See the previous discussions distinguishing between milonguero viejos and
viejo milongueros.
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:14:37 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Nuevo vs. Milonguero
Hola list,
Stephen Brown opens up some great points:
>>>
Over recent years, however, nuevo has taken on the dimensions of a style.
As a style, nuevo is is danced in an open, loose embrace with a very
upright posture, and a great emphasis is placed on dancers maintaining
their own axes.
<<<
I know what you are saying - nuevo STARTED as an inquiry, but in some
people's minds has become a style, based on what is excluded and included,
like other styles. In part, I'm arguing that its chief value was, is, and
remains as an inquiry rather than as yet another limited style (not that
there's anything WRONG with styles!)
Even when considered as a style, there's a paradoxical angle on Nuevo. The
"open, loose embrace" for example, is less part of the dance styles of
Gustavo, for example, than it is some of their less-experienced adherents.
I'd agree that it's definitely a characteristic of a certain initial level
of exploration using the nuevo tango approach.
What you see is that people doing the Nuevo line of inquiry go through a
"novice nuevo" developmental phase, where some of the old beginner habits
resurface, because they're mastering new things again. Wehn many of us
started, we had a much more "buffered" open embrace to avoid kicking our
partner while we mastered these alien things like parallel/crossed, 2
tracks/3 tracks/4 tracks, and other things that made us stare a lot at our
feet. Working on something like the back sacada by the follower will bring
us temporarily back to this stage while we stare at our feet again. But
that's just because we're at an early development stage with the stuff.
Deb and I were at Linda Valentino's Tango Fireworks last month, and one of
the many great things about it was being able to watch Gustavo & Giselle
dance on the pista in a social setting rather than just in a performance
setting (their performance was awe-inspiring, but that's another story). If
you actually watch Gustavo and Giselle dance, if you actually take their
classes (what a privilege! Thanks, Linda!), you see that their embrace is
"close but flexible", rather than "open and loose". When they walk, they
are in close-embrace with a slight V to the open side of the embrace. His
right arm is all the way around her back, his right hand under her right
shoulder. Those of us who enjoy close-embrace can identify with this. Those
of us taking the GyG classes noted that when we first tried the material, we
tended to open up our embrace a LOT. Then as we understood the step, we
found that there were difficulties we couldn't get past UNTIL we made the
embrace close again, at which point many many things became magically
easier.
As to whether they are "very upright"...well, you had to see Giselle's
volcadas and colgadas and hear the room start moaning in appreciation!
So, do some people stay at the intermediate-level and keep the embrace open?
Well yes, I see that they do. They like it, people see them, and so it sort
of starts down the "style" track. But something really important is missing
in calling THAT "Nuevo" - we're enshrining the stylings of apprentices as
the voice of the masters.
>>>
As for whether, nuevo contains milonguero, I have to disagree a bit.
<<<
If we're talking the "Style Nuevo" instead of the "Nuevo Inquiry", then of
course you're right. "Style Nuevo" excludes "Style Milonguero" to the degree
that we draw distinctions between what they include or exclude... unless,
perhaps, if the "old guys" start doing changes of direction!
>>>
Milonguero-style tango is typically danced with an apilado embrace...As Tom
Stermitz has pointed
out numerous times, this embrace tends to move the axis of the dance into
the woman's body.
<<<
Great, you've made my point! Nuevo-inquiry systematically explores moving
the axis of the turn in and out of both partner's bodies and also
in-between. Milonguero-style decides it likes leaving it in the woman's
body. Style vs. inquiry again...an inquiry-based approach transcends and
includes styles, because its goals are different. Styles can use the
inquiry's methods to expand themselves, as we see happening in things like
"nuevo milonguero"...although sometimes the transmission path can be quite
circuitous! ;>
>>>
As experimentation continues, integration of milonguero into nuevo seem to
be occurring, but some people regard this as yet another style and calling
it liquid tango. Liquid tango has no set embrace. Dancers go back and
forth from the open loose embrace of nuevo and a soft apilado embrace.
<<<
As stated above, this is actually pretty much how Gustavo & Giselle dance.
So do we define styles by what the leaders themselves do or by the struggles
and stylings of the less-skilled adherents? See robin's comments about
Susana Miller's teaching - that's an interesting question.
>>>
Last year, everyone in North America was abuzz about two new movements that
work well
in an apilado embrace--the colgada and the volcada.
<<<
??? TERMINOLOGY ALERT ???
Colgadas, as I understand them, are an OUTWARD leaning of BOTH partner's
axes (the "hanging") which sometimes but not always is combined with a
single-axis turn. Julio & Corina first drew this distinction clearly for
me. I think some people refer to single-axis turns as colgadas, then take
out the "hanging" concept so they can stay in apilado, but maybe this is an
example of a good name gone bad.
It seems reasonable to say that "hanging" of partners away from each other,
tilted outward away from their shared foot placement by thirty degrees or
more, doesn't have much to do with apilado.
>>> old wine in new bottles
I always appreciate it when an Argentine master teacher shows me something,
then explicitly attributes its origin to someone besides themselves. This
happens all too rarely. Otherwise, well, it's amazing how much tango
knowledge sprang forth fully developed in some people's heads without ever
having seen it first in someone else's body! ;> ;>
"Sure I steal stuff, but I only steal from the best!"
Abrazos,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:30:56 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Nuevo vs. Milonguero
Hola Brian and List:
About the nuevo style of tango dancing:
I should clarify that I was not writing about novice nuevo tango dancers.
I am describing my experience in watching Fabian Salas and Carolina del
Rivero and other skilled practioners.
It is too bad we cannot conduct some of these discussions with visual aids
to clarify what we mean. I want to clarify that by open, loose embrace, I
did not mean a distant embrace. Rather, I meant that the dancers maintain
independent axes, the embrace is flexible, and there is relatively little
tension in the arms.
Even for skilled dancers, doing a back sacada requires abandoning an
apilado embrace. This not to say that the dancers are far apart--only
that they can no longer remain in a chest-to-chest embrace.
Nuevo-Style versus Nuevo-Inquiry
I do not think the real differences in the comments that Brian and I
offered have much to do with the embrace, however. It comes from my
perspective of discussing nuevo tango as a style and Brian's perspective
of discussing nuevo tango as an inquiry.
I wrote:
>>As for whether, nuevo contains milonguero, I have to disagree a bit.
Brian replied:
>If we're talking the "Style Nuevo" instead of the "Nuevo Inquiry",
>then of course you're right. "Style Nuevo" excludes "Style Milonguero"
>to the degree that we draw distinctions between what they include or
>exclude...
No real disagreement here. I was trying to describe the difference
between the nuevo and the milonguero styles of dancing tango. I also
agree that milonguero tango is a limited vocabulary approach to tango.
I used the term liquid tango to describe a blending of the nuevo and
milonguero dance styles.
>[T]his is actually pretty much how Gustavo & Giselle dance.
>Nuevo inquiry systematically explores moving the axis of the turn
>in and out of both partner's bodies and also in-between.
>[A]n inquiry-based approach transcends and includes styles,
>because its goals are different.
>So do we define styles by what the leaders themselves do ...?
This is a much tougher issue. Where does one draw the line in applying
terms that the masters themselves do not accept. What Brian has called
"nuevo inquiry" began by examining the possibilities for movement within
the salon and orrilero, and to some extent fantasia, styles of dancing.
Expanding the inquiry to include characteristics of the milonguero style
of dancing fundamentally changes the dynamics of the dance, and hence some
people are identifying the new style by the name "liquid."
What perhaps this points to is the futility of naming styles. Yet, naming
styles remain a convenient way for dancers and instructors to identify how
they dance and teach.
Colgadas/Volcadas and other old wine in new bottles:
I used the term "colgada" to describe a single-axis turn. Terminology is
not standard and perhaps my usage is incorrect, but nevertheless, a single
axis-turn is relatively old whether one hangs out a 30 degree angle or
not.. So is a a volcada
>[What] if the "old guys" start doing changes of direction!
Interestingly enough, some of the change of direction steps can be done
quite easily in a apilado embrace. It could easily become the new fad in
milonguero-style tango.
>"Sure I steal stuff, but I only steal from the best!"
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
