2480 hard wiring and milonga
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:45:45 -0500
From: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: hard wiring and milonga
Heyo Friends,
1. ...glad to hear you kids had a good time in Denver!
2. Oleh reports:
>>Alex said in class 'that North American followers cannot do small shuffle
step to the left (relative to the line of dance), because they are hardwired
by instructors to' ....<<
Several responses:
i) Perhaps Oleh is the exception that proves the rule. I wasn't there,
but I have tremendous respect for my friend Alex. I agree that followers up
here are often 'hard wired'. [For one thing, their circuits are not
properly grounded ;-)] But as most teachers know, typical students are only
capable of learning the dance backwards. It is the exceptional student (and
usually a follower) to whom you can teach the most important fundamentals
right up front. So if your own experiences differ somewhat from a
teacher's, it only means you're different, perhaps insightful, not right or
wrong. Like it or not, teachers are supposed to give dancers the confidence
and means to get 'out there' as quickly as possible.
ii) However (and NOT in reference to Denver), teachers who suggest
dancing tango structure/steps to milonga music are asking for trouble!
Maybe they are naïve to the ramifications of this 'short-cut', or faced with
students whose memories are totally saturated by other classes. Milonga
demands a flawless, solid, trusting connection. Executing tango steps at a
milonga tempo is IMHO difficult and counterproductive. Traditional milonga
steps differ from tango for a good reason: with the quicker timing, the
movements are simpler and lighter to require less energy. Only when the
frame/connection are *really* dialed-in can you 'bump-up' the energy without
problems. Personally, I think it's a great disservice to teach milonga
using tango steps/structure. Ochos in milonga? Ooof! ...only in an
emergency (or maybe as a joke)! Because of the energy mis-match, I
personally struggle not to keep tango out of my milonga but to keep milonga
out of my tango.
iii) Based on my travels I would agree that followers 'up here' - and I
hope that YOU are an exception ;-) - *don't* trust that you will really lead
them. They don't give you their body to work with. They don't shut down
all the necessary circuits because it usually doesn't work.
iv) That's obviously because most leaders are not prepared to kindly take
a woman by the body and give her just what she wants and needs to feel great
while really following. When Mr. Average Leader was a new beginner, no
woman in the class was forward enough to snug-up against him! ...If they
did there's still the difficult issue of perceiving and managing the axis.
So the problems (and the blame) are cyclical and endemic. Before you circle
back and blame the teachers, let's not forget the often-impossible
expectations of new tango students. Obstacles like modesty, the paradigms
of other social dances that just don't apply and even common misconceptions
about the basic nature of dance itself. ...so many distractions...
3) In retrospect, we should all have learned milonga before tango! Even
though it's too late now, milonga is still one of the best remedies for
problems with single-axis tango. It helps teach what is essential and what
is not. It shows (for those who are attentive) that the key to making the
dance work is relaxation and trust. If something you like is not working,
trying *harder* will only make things worse. You have to RELAX harder! ;-)
For (single-axis) tango and milonga, these revelations and their practice
are worth all the memorized steps and 'intellectualizing' under the sun.
Take care, all!
Frank in Mpls.
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
frankw@umn.edu
612-625-6441
Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church St. SE.
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Department of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences
1971 Commonwealth Ave.
St. Paul, Minnesota 55108
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:43:47 -0600
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: hard wiring and milonga
Hello Frank;
Could you please clarify on what you mean when you mention that many of the
Followers (in North America?) "Do not have their circuits properly
grounded".
I for one have danced in a lot of places as well and rarely have a problem.
I thank you ahead of time.
David Hodgson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 12:46 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] hard wiring and milonga
Heyo Friends,
1. ...glad to hear you kids had a good time in Denver!
2. Oleh reports:
>>Alex said in class 'that North American followers cannot do small shuffle
step to the left (relative to the line of dance), because they are hardwired
by instructors to' ....<<
Several responses:
i) Perhaps Oleh is the exception that proves the rule. I wasn't there,
but I have tremendous respect for my friend Alex. I agree that followers up
here are often 'hard wired'. [For one thing, their circuits are not
properly grounded ;-)] But as most teachers know, typical students are only
capable of learning the dance backwards. It is the exceptional student (and
usually a follower) to whom you can teach the most important fundamentals
right up front. So if your own experiences differ somewhat from a
teacher's, it only means you're different, perhaps insightful, not right or
wrong. Like it or not, teachers are supposed to give dancers the confidence
and means to get 'out there' as quickly as possible.
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:59:54 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: hard wiring and milonga
Frank in Minneapolis wrote:
>>i) Perhaps Oleh is the exception that proves the rule [...] But as most
>>teachers know, typical students are only capable of learning the dance
>>backwards. It is the exceptional student (and usually a follower) to whom
>>you can teach the most important fundamentals right up front.
I teach shuffle step in the very first beginner lesson. More on exceptions
below.
And
>>iii) Based on my travels I would agree that followers 'up here' - and I
>>hope that YOU are an exception ;-) - *don't* trust that you will really
>>lead them. They don't give you their body to work with. They don't shut
>>down all the necessary circuits because it usually doesn't work.
This is not my experience.
I think the key to Alex's remark lays in another thing he said in that
milonga class, namely that leader's upper body should remain steady as he
dances milonga. And indeed when he dances milonga his upper body does not
move. When I dance milonga I dance it with everything I ve got below my neck
(with a few notable exceptions), because the music sways me. It might sound
gaudy but actually quite nice because I do not have to make huge movements
to convey the lead in close embrace. If I use my upper body it's fairly easy
to lead quick countermotion of shuffle step.
I do not think I am an exception either. I ve received several private
emails from leaders who also can lead shuffle step in any direction. I do
think that there are about one - two followers in ten who need significantly
amplified lead at first - they might have never been exposed to the shuffle
step before. However even in those cases it s a matter of proper lead and
not that followers are not capable following.
Cheers, Oleh K.
Colorado Springs
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
>Reply-To: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] hard wiring and milonga
>Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:45:45 -0500
>
>Heyo Friends,
>
>1. ...glad to hear you kids had a good time in Denver!
>
>2. Oleh reports:
>
> >>Alex said in class 'that North American followers cannot do small
>shuffle
>step to the left (relative to the line of dance), because they are
>hardwired
>by instructors to' ....<<
>
>Several responses:
> i) Perhaps Oleh is the exception that proves the rule. I wasn't there,
>but I have tremendous respect for my friend Alex. I agree that followers
>up
>here are often 'hard wired'. [For one thing, their circuits are not
>properly grounded ;-)] But as most teachers know, typical students are
>only
>capable of learning the dance backwards. It is the exceptional student
>(and
>usually a follower) to whom you can teach the most important fundamentals
>right up front. So if your own experiences differ somewhat from a
>teacher's, it only means you're different, perhaps insightful, not right or
>wrong. Like it or not, teachers are supposed to give dancers the
>confidence
>and means to get 'out there' as quickly as possible.
>
> ii) However (and NOT in reference to Denver), teachers who suggest
>dancing tango structure/steps to milonga music are asking for trouble!
>Maybe they are naove to the ramifications of this 'short-cut', or faced
>with
>students whose memories are totally saturated by other classes. Milonga
>demands a flawless, solid, trusting connection. Executing tango steps at a
>milonga tempo is IMHO difficult and counterproductive. Traditional milonga
>steps differ from tango for a good reason: with the quicker timing, the
>movements are simpler and lighter to require less energy. Only when the
>frame/connection are *really* dialed-in can you 'bump-up' the energy
>without
>problems. Personally, I think it's a great disservice to teach milonga
>using tango steps/structure. Ochos in milonga? Ooof! ...only in an
>emergency (or maybe as a joke)! Because of the energy mis-match, I
>personally struggle not to keep tango out of my milonga but to keep milonga
>out of my tango.
>
> iii) Based on my travels I would agree that followers 'up here' - and I
>hope that YOU are an exception ;-) - *don't* trust that you will really
>lead
>them. They don't give you their body to work with. They don't shut down
>all the necessary circuits because it usually doesn't work.
>
> iv) That's obviously because most leaders are not prepared to kindly
>take
>a woman by the body and give her just what she wants and needs to feel
>great
>while really following. When Mr. Average Leader was a new beginner, no
>woman in the class was forward enough to snug-up against him! ...If they
>did there's still the difficult issue of perceiving and managing the axis.
>So the problems (and the blame) are cyclical and endemic. Before you
>circle
>back and blame the teachers, let's not forget the often-impossible
>expectations of new tango students. Obstacles like modesty, the paradigms
>of other social dances that just don't apply and even common misconceptions
>about the basic nature of dance itself. ...so many distractions...
>
>
>3) In retrospect, we should all have learned milonga before tango! Even
>though it's too late now, milonga is still one of the best remedies for
>problems with single-axis tango. It helps teach what is essential and what
>is not. It shows (for those who are attentive) that the key to making the
>dance work is relaxation and trust. If something you like is not working,
>trying *harder* will only make things worse. You have to RELAX harder!
>;-)
>For (single-axis) tango and milonga, these revelations and their practice
>are worth all the memorized steps and 'intellectualizing' under the sun.
>
>
>Take care, all!
>
>Frank in Mpls.
>
>
>Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
>University of Minnesota
>frankw@umn.edu
>612-625-6441
>
>Department of Neuroscience
>6-145 Jackson Hall
>321 Church St. SE.
>Minneapolis, MN 55455
>
>Department of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences
>1971 Commonwealth Ave.
>St. Paul, Minnesota 55108
>
>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:57:59 -0600
From: romerob <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: hard wiring and milonga
>Ochos in milonga? Ooof! ...only in an emergency (or maybe as a joke)!<
Not sure this is the right approach when disregarding dancing ochos in
milonga. Ochos derive from the doble corte -- as in cortes and quebradas.
Cortes and Quebradas were part of milonga choreography of the black dancers
from Montevideo and compadritos from Buenos Aires. A doble corte means
simply stepping one foot across the other. One (the man) can do it twice on
the same side left or right, or one can step once on the left side and then
on the right side, which will produce an ocho. The more seasoned tango
dancers do it, may be they do not call it doble corte. The dance
choreography of canyengue has the doble corte. A more refined version of the
doble corte can be seen in the milonga demo of Victor Romero and Norma Galli
when they dance to D'Arienzo's papas calientes.
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 01:00:54 -0400
From: Antonio Cervila Junior <junior@CERVILA.COM>
Subject: Re: hard wiring and milonga
Why people try to say what is right and what is wrong in tango???
This is popular dance and as a popular dance there is no right or wrong.
There is a way that you feel comfortable doing that doesn't mean that is the only way or even the "right" way.
Classical ballet has it's rules and it is like that all over the world. But you can't put rules in a dance created on the streets. It limits its =
development.
A teacher must not be a dictator. But only show the way that he prefer. The student is free to choose the different stiles or even better, a mix =
of all creating his own stile.
Antonio Cervila Junior
cervila@hotmail.com<mailto:cervila@hotmail.com>
www.cervila.com<
----- Original Message -----
From: romerob<mailto:romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU<mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] hard wiring and milonga
>Ochos in milonga? Ooof! ...only in an emergency (or maybe as a joke)!<
Not sure this is the right approach when disregarding dancing ochos in
milonga. Ochos derive from the doble corte -- as in cortes and quebradas.
Cortes and Quebradas were part of milonga choreography of the black dancers
from Montevideo and compadritos from Buenos Aires. A doble corte means
simply stepping one foot across the other. One (the man) can do it twice on
the same side left or right, or one can step once on the left side and then
on the right side, which will produce an ocho. The more seasoned tango
dancers do it, may be they do not call it doble corte. The dance
choreography of canyengue has the doble corte. A more refined version of the
doble corte can be seen in the milonga demo of Victor Romero and Norma Galli
when they dance to D'Arienzo's papas calientes.
Regards,
Bruno
send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU<mailto:LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>.
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:05:43 +0200
From: Peter Wenger <Wenger-Lehrmittel@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: hard wiring and milonga
Hello Bruno
>Not sure this is the right approach when disregarding dancing ochos in
>milonga. Ochos derive from the doble corte -- as in cortes and quebradas.
>Cortes and Quebradas were part of milonga choreography of the black dancers
>from Montevideo and compadritos from Buenos Aires. A doble corte means
>simply stepping one foot across the other. One (the man) can do it twice on
>the same side left or right, or one can step once on the left side and then
>on the right side, which will produce an ocho. The more seasoned tango
>dancers do it, may be they do not call it doble corte. The dance
>choreography of canyengue has the doble corte. A more refined version of the
>doble corte can be seen in the milonga demo of Victor Romero and Norma Galli
>when they dance to D'Arienzo's papas calientes.
>
>
I would like to see it, can you gif an webadress?
Peter
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:13:58 -0500
From: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: hard wiring and milonga: the cleanup
Heyo!
...nice to see folks reedin' & rytin'! I'm on digest format so
I'm always a day behind...
David asks:
>>Could you please clarify on what you mean when you mention that
many of the Followers (in North America?) "Do not have their
circuits properly grounded".
Mostly, David, it was a slightly smart-ass analogy to dangerous
electrical wiring designs. I don't have 'trouble' either. In the
original context, we might re-state my point by quoting Mingo
Pugliese. While working with a follower friend of mine he said,
"Stop 'dancing' and just walk!"
...she came back from those lessons a much enlightened tanguera!
Thanks Bruno for the nice clarification. I love those elements in
milonga. Omar Vega, whose milonga I admire, teaches them as well.
In the past I've been criticized by respected followers for overly
energetic milonga. In toning it down to a level that is tolerable
to these BA-bred tangueras (traveling teachers), the 'power of
relaxation' became delightfully evident. That is what I particularly
hoped to share, because milonga is so much more fun now!
Thanks Rick and A.C. Junior...
Best to all,
Frank - Mpls.
