145 Hello
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:43:53 +0200
From: Massimiliano Mirra <list@CHROMATIC-HARP.COM>
Subject: Hello
Hello everybody. I have just began to learn tango on my own and am
curious about how many chances one stands to actually do it. Are
there any successful self-taught dancers on this list or do you know
of any?
Most of the self teaching stuff I have seen (videos and web pages)
seems to focus on steps, steps, and then again steps. It leaves me
with a lot of unanswered questions, since I'd rather learn to move in
the way and with the attitude which seem so peculiar to tango, after
which I don't care if I know five or five thousands steps. There has
not been much traffic in this list since I have subscribed a week ago,
so I haven't been able to get a feel for the accepted topics. Are
beginners' ultra-basic questions welcome or frowned upon?
Massimiliano
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:08:21 -0400
From: CARLOS RENTA <dancewithme89@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hello
Hello M...It just depends as to whether you want to be a tango dancer or
just a so call dancer. In this particular dance, if you are a gifted dancer
and there are many places to dance in a daily basis, I would imagine that
lessons are not needed. Otherwise, you need to ask yourself how good of a
dancer am I, but most of all, what kind of a dancer do I want to be in the
"ARGENTINE TANGO" arena. Feelings and attidutes cannot be taught by a
machine or video. Well, all I can say is "GOOD LUCK" and hopefully video
tapes will give you what you want.
RECOMMENDATION: take lessons...private or group. See you someday in a
milonga...Carlos
>From: Massimiliano Mirra <list@CHROMATIC-HARP.COM>
>Reply-To: Massimiliano Mirra <list@CHROMATIC-HARP.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Hello
>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:43:53 +0200
>
>Hello everybody. I have just began to learn tango on my own and am
>curious about how many chances one stands to actually do it. Are
>there any successful self-taught dancers on this list or do you know
>of any?
>
>Most of the self teaching stuff I have seen (videos and web pages)
>seems to focus on steps, steps, and then again steps. It leaves me
>with a lot of unanswered questions, since I'd rather learn to move in
>the way and with the attitude which seem so peculiar to tango, after
>which I don't care if I know five or five thousands steps. There has
>not been much traffic in this list since I have subscribed a week ago,
>so I haven't been able to get a feel for the accepted topics. Are
>beginners' ultra-basic questions welcome or frowned upon?
>
>Massimiliano
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:38:22 -0400
From: Ba Tango <rhink2@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Hello: Self-Taught
I was interested in Massimiliano's posting about learning tango for
a variety of reasons. The primary reason is that I find learning
tango a humbling experience even with the best instruction.
There was I time when I thought I could learn any partner dance through
videos, by observing, or in group classes. Indeed, I learned ballroom
and swing dances that way. Although I never tried to reach professional
caliber, I became relatively accomplished at these dances.
Then I came up against A. tango. I knew something was amiss when I would
take a class and have little trouble learning a figure. Then in the
evening at a milonga with the same partner, we could not do the same
pattern. Clearly there is something wrong with that picture.
It dawned on me finally that there were subtle flaws in my technique
that made me effectively unfollowable. When a follower knows what's
coming, she compensate for these flaws.
Solution: private lessons. Not private lessons with just anyone.
I needed private lessons with someone who could identify and fix
my technical flaws. Fortunately, I found such an instructor. No
amount of video viewing, observation, or group classes could have
solved my problems. The technical breaks are to subtle to be seen;
they have to be felt.
A second point is that A. tango is not learned, IMO; it is studied.
I don't think anyone says, "Okay, now I've learned tango." It's
more accurate to say, "Okay, now I've crossed that hurdle; what's the
next one to tackle?"
I believe that once one learns the basic techniques, more advanced
techniques may be acquired more easily. But I always keep my instructor's
phone number handy just in case.
Bob Hink
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:22:51 GMT
From: "Sa, Na-W, Na-C, Na-E, Misc" <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Can you learn from videos (Was Hello)
Massimiliano Mirra wanted to know if beginners
could learn tango from watching videos.
In a word, NO. As he correctly noted, he's watching
steps. Videos are fine for those who have danced
a while and have taken private lessons.
Even milongas won't help you dance better because
IMHO beginners don't know what to look for when watching
other dancers. I thought some men were great leaders
executing difficult figures. The women told me else wise, feeling overpowered
or coerced.
Even if the tapes were perfect, who would watch you
to ensure you're executing correctly? You realized
early on that tango is more than steps. CONGRATULATIONS!!
You need a teacher to observe and correct your frame,
posture, balance, and axis. The next time you watch
your videos, turn the sound off and closely examine
the frame of the dancers.
>
Michael
P.S. I'm sure the tango videos are better than 90%
of what's on commercial TV. The percentage will go
down slightly when the new TV season begins. LOL
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:26:35 -0400
From: "Holton, David A." <DHolton@KFORCE.COM>
Subject: Re: Hello: Self-Taught
>Bob Hink wrote:
>...A. tango is not learned, IMO; it is studied.
>I don't think anyone says, "Okay, now I've learned tango."
I have not seen a truer statement made for the year and half I've been on
this list.
Many months ago there was a similar thread about what to practice when alone
that I helped start. I was convinced at that time that there had to be a
lot of things I could do by myself to learn the distinct movements of the
Tango. I did receive some interesting, positive replies that helped some.
Carlos Lima even did a recap of all the information posted, which I've
saved.
BUT, I NOW do not believe I, or anyone else, can learn very much by one's
self. You need experienced teachers and dancers to help you learn proper
technique. (As was demonstrated to me just last night in an introductory
class on ganchos) Once you have learned the proper technique there may be
exercises that an instructor can give you to help you polish your technique.
The instructor needs to see you as you learn the technique to make
corrections you would not catch yourself (This is true not just in Tango).
You also need experienced partners to help you improve your leading and/or
following ability.
The only things I think you can do by yourself is walking to the music
(after and instructor has taught you how to walk) and this is not as good or
profitable as walking with a partner. Balance work, which could be
accomplished with yoga, tai chi, or other solo, movement oriented exercises.
Listening to the music on a regular basis. Also, while listening to the
music, just moving to it; trying to connect with it.
I have been actively taking classes and workshops in our community for about
6 months. This puts me in intermediate classes here (I still consider
myself a beginner), but I still have trouble with basic walking let alone
other technique.
I do think video tapes have some value, though. I have some and plan to
purchase more, BUT I do not rely on them to learn Tango. I tried that in
the beginning, and can see that I was/am in danger of learning some bad
habits only because no one was there to see that I was executing the
techniques properly. HOWEVER, the tapes are full of ideas that I have taken
to my main instructor and other experienced dancers. At that point we can
work on the ideas and develop them together.
Now, Massimiliano never mentions whether classes or milongas are available.
If there are none available then you need to take a vacation someplace to
get some instruction. Then try to get others in the area interested. Start
a new Tango community.
David Holton
St. Petersburg, Florida
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:30:03 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Hello: Self-Taught
David Holton wrote:
>Now, Massimiliano never mentions whether classes or milongas are
available.
>If there are none available then you need to take a vacation someplace to
>get some instruction. Then try to get others in the area interested.
Start
>a new Tango community.
Susan and I did exactly that a number of years ago. We took vacations to
the San Francisco Bay Area and stuied with Nora Dinzelbacher and attended
the Stanford Tango Week. We helped start the tango community in Dallas.
Dancing in isolation from a larger tango community got us interested in
videos. We found them more helpful as a reminder than as principal
instruction. Fortunately, today there are many cities and tango weeks from
which to choose.
As someone who has now taken many classes, teaches regularly and has
reviewed most of the available instructional videos, I agree with the
perspective previously expressed on Tango-L that videos offer very
incomplete instruction. In comparison to live instruction, the elements of
instruction most absent in the videos are musicality, lead and follow
skills, and developing a physical feeling for the dance. Instructional
videos best convey steps and patterns--which can lead to a very narrow
perspective on Argentine tango.
(Looking at the right videos may help you determine, however, whether the
instructor you have selected is actually teaching Argentine tango. In many
cities, ballroom instructors continue to claim they are teaching Argentine
tango to their unsuspecting students. There are even some instructional
video tapes of ballroom dancers teaching inauthentic Argentine tango.)
You can read my reviews of more than 100 instructional videos for Argentine
tango at <https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html>. It has a
section on Video Tapes Most Suitable for Beginners that starts with the
warning "In the opinion of most Argentine Tango dancers and instructors,
video tapes are a poor substitute for live instruction, particularly at the
beginning level."
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
An online noncommercial resource with information about Argentine tango
including reviews of instructional videos, guides to tango music, articles
about learning and dancing tango, and a comprehensive set of links.
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:59:39 +0200
From: Massimiliano Mirra <list@CHROMATIC-HARP.COM>
Subject: Re: Hello
First of all, a big, warm *thank you* to everyone. I received far
more replies than I had imagined and the feedback was simply
wonderful.
Before I comment on some points and answer questions, let me take a
possible misunderstanding out of the way: it's not that I don't want
to learn by any other means than videos, it's just that I am starting
a business and have a routine of 8+ hours of practical work per day
(weekends included) plus more for administrative work. Not exactly a
part-time job.
The tango scene here is, well, ``not very lively'' (local slang for
hardly existing). It gets better in a hundred km's, but that involves
travelling and travelling involves time. (By the way, since it has
been asked, I am from a town near Benevento in Southern Italy.)
So why don't I just wait for the seas to calm down and then start?
You see, I just found myself, well, ``seduced'' seems the right word,
by the dance and by the music. And I don't know what it's like for
you when you feel strongly attracted to someone that is far. To me,
it is a kind of lingering restlessness that only gets temporary relief
by such things as writing a letter, or hearing this person's voice
over the phone.
Same here: I cannot be in touch with a tango environment right now,
but the thought won't go away either, so I try and get some ``relief''
by just feeling my body moving along with the music with my admittedly
mock-steps. For now. When I'll have set the stage, I won't spare
energies, and that means a hundred of km's as well as BsAs.
Dan wrote:
<<You may not realize how profound and utterly meaningful your observations
and statement were:
[...]
with a lot of unanswered questions, since I'd rather learn to move in
the way and with the attitude which seem so peculiar to tango, after
which I don't care if I know five or five thousands steps."}>>
I used to act in theatre and the similar lesson everybody had to learn
was that no matter how many beautiful words you spout, they're not
going anywhere without the proper tone, and the proper tone is not
coming from anywhere without the proper state.
<<Trying to learn from a web page doesn't sound like an avenue to
success to me.>>
It doesn't sound like it leads any far, indeed. But I have one thing
to say in favour of web pages or written/verbal material in general.
Have you ever watched a beautiful painting, then someone who loved it
and knew it a lot pointed out some features that you hadn't noticed at
first? Or maybe you listened to a piece of orchestral music and were
totally unaware of the instrument that repeated the main theme in the
background, until someone brought your attention to it.
Well, I've found some written material about tango precious where my
senses were not sharp enough on the visual one. An example is the
``jungle cat'' metaphor by Larry Carroll
(https://home.att.net/~larrydla). I am not entitled to say how
accurate it is, but it surely conveys a meaning effectively in just a
bunch of words.
Even something very simple like ``notice how his shoulders are
relaxed'' can help where the eyes miss.
Dominique wrote:
<<dancing and forget what you don't like, try to imagine what feeling
they have when they are dancing.>>
Very poignant. ``Learn outside & inside.''
Bob wrote:
<<A second point is that A. tango is not learned, IMO; it is studied.>>
Definitely, and I can't think of any art for which that is not true.
Even more appropriate than the words ``learn'' and ``study'', in my
case and for what I meant I should have said ``explore''.
Now a question...
Basic walking: when stepping forward, does the body weight shift so
that when the forward foot touches the floor on the strong beat,
weight is already on it? Or does it shift later on the weak beat, so
that the foot touches floor very softly on the strong beat? I did not
find a single word about it and I'd swear it's done both ways in the
few clips I have seen.
(Well, I told you they were basic!)
Massimiliano
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:07:18 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Hello
Congratulations on your passion.
I would say there is one truly important thing you can learn on your own:
Listen, listen, listen to the music.
>
>Now a question...
>
>Basic walking: when stepping forward, does the body weight shift so
>that when the forward foot touches the floor on the strong beat,
>weight is already on it? Or does it shift later on the weak beat, so
>that the foot touches floor very softly on the strong beat? I did not
>find a single word about it and I'd swear it's done both ways in the
>few clips I have seen.
>
>(Well, I told you they were basic!)
>
>Massimiliano
That is probably the most basic, but most profound, and perhaps most
subtle point you could ask about.
Tango has four connections (for the leader):
(1) the music
(2) your partner
(3) the earth
(4) the other dancers.
Landing ON the beat, with your full weight. REALLY transferring your
axis into the earth at that precise moment is one of the true keys to
finding the first three connections listed above.
It is like judo.
If you partner has her weight into the earth at that moment, and you
are nicely grounded into the center of the earth as well, then
everything functions perfectly.
The more I study tango, the more I realize just how subtle yet
profound this basic little detail is.
This is unrelated to style or anything else. It is fundamental.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:41:06 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Hello
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>Listen, listen, listen to the music.
>Landing ON the beat, with your full weight. REALLY transferring your
>axis into the earth at that precise moment is one of the true keys to
>finding the first three connections listed above.
While I agree with Tom, it is much to easy to interpret his comments
analytically. Although we may use our heads to train ourselves to dance
tango, we must dance tango from the heart. As was said long ago, "Listen
to the force." In tango, the music is the force.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
