3643 hidden deep tango conversations
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:14:36 -0700
From: H Dickinson <hyladlmp@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: hidden deep tango conversations
Brian, can I say thank you for trying to welcome the
women's/follower's viewpoints here?
Yes, there are limitations inherent in dancing with a man
with a very definite, distinct style, and sometimes the only way
to open that out, is to dance with someone else. (Although
sometimes I choose to "open in" as it were, and add my bit in a
more deep and subtle way). What I find interesting and
challenging as a woman who mostly takes the follower's role, is
that it can be a much more active and creative role than many
people assume. One challenge is "Can I expand his horizons?"
Another challenge is "Can I enjoy and participate, by trying to
meld with him, reflect him, add nothing overt?" Carole's point
about egotism is apropos, here.
I have been thinking about Michael's request for exercises to
help followers to "improvise without getting in the way of the
lead", intertwined with some of Jonathan's comments about
preferring not to play footsie, and Carole's lovely post on
egotism, and Trini's advice to listen really listen.
When I think of examples of a woman participating more fully in
the dance, the first that spring to mind are the visually
interesting items, the ones that I, as a dancer, think about and
have worked on more consciously. But when I started to think
about specific answers for Michael, I asked myself "what were
the first steps I took toward participating more fully? What
did the men who danced with me do that encouraged me to keep
going, to expand more of myself into the dance?"
It began with things much more integral than foot taps or
balance or exercises, things that are hidden from outside view,
but central to the feel of the dance. I think they are
prerequisites for the more obvious expressions of musicality.
To do more obvious things, good solid technique is a must. I
did not do embellishments at all for at least two years, I was
too insecure in my balance, technique, etc. So I had to get all
that under my belt to consciously add anything. And it took
longer yet to have confidence enough to take those additions out
of the practica, to the milonga. But I was still actively
participating before I could do those things.
When my technique was not good enough to really support add-ons
or "riffs" or taps or whatever, I was still always trying to
listen to the music. I would change my breathing, the tension
or density throughout my body, the weight of my footfall. I
would alter the feel of the embrace, snuggle in or be more
aloof. Most of this was only dimly conscious, in the very back
of my mind or my body; it was the response to the music that was
foremost in my mind. This is something that the more sensitive
and musical leaders will always notice, even when I don't notice
it myself. It is a "hidden" part of the conversation.
I still do all of these things, sometimes consciously, sometimes
not. These are things that I can do with men who are not yet
confident enough in their lead to support more obvious input.
They might be the only things I "add" when dancing with someone
whose musicality or interpretation are new to me, or so
interesting in themselves and yet somehow inclusive of me, that
I don't feel the need to add anything. It is the basis for all
the other "riffs" or "play" that I ever do.
And what encouraged me? The encouragement from guys to express
myself started before they said anything, with their
appreciation of the music. The full expression of their own
musicality helped me to understand that there WAS such a thing
as musicality, that listening more deeply to the music would pay
off. Even before I gained technical confidence as a dancer, some
of the more musical men would dance with me, just enough so that
I could feel how they were inspired by the music, used it,
played with it. And the most musical ones would do unexpected
things to the music that made me hear it in a new way, or
highlighted something in the music that ran counter to what I
was hearing "on top" as it were. When I first noticed the
lyrical strings in D'Arienzo, for example, it was not because
someone told me about it verbally, or because I heard it myself.
It was because a leader who I admired began dancing to the
strings in such a way that after my initial confusion, I HAD to
listen to them. It was a revelation.
Then, they rewarded me *non-verbally* for those tentative first
contributions. When my body responded to the mood of the music
with a different density or alertness or tension, they would
mirror that, or pick up on it in some way. They would alter
their own interpretation to include my limited one, or breath
deeply so I could feel it bring us closer together into the
embrace, the music, the dance. And they would comment favorably
on my musicality, even though it wasn't much. "I don't care if
so-and-so says it interferes with his lead, I like it, keep
doing it when you dance with me, do more of it!"
I'll end with a story: I was dancing with a man whose
musicality I really respect. It was a practica, they were
playing the slow instrumental Di Sarli. I was just starting to
make the transition from thinking of Di Sarli as "that slow,
simple, boring, out of date beginner's music" but I wasn't quite
there yet. This man began leading things that made no sense to
me, but as I said, I really respected his musicality. So I
started listening listening to find what he could possibly be
hearing in the music, trying to make his lead work. I did not
want to do something to embarrass myself and lose his respect.
I began hearing things in that music that opened Di Sarli out in
ways I could never have imagined. It's not simple! Not boring
at all! My gosh, the layers of complexity, the opportunities
for subtlety and finesse!
At the end of the tanda, this man said, "gee, I was trying to
see all through that dance if I could make you dance
unmusically, and I just couldn't make you do it!" Because I
assumed that he was leading musically, I unconsciously
refused to dance unmusically and thus forced him to allow me to
find a musical moment to dance to. Which in turn forced me to
look for, and find, more of those moments in the depths of the
music. It worked because he was sensitive enough to me that he
respected my "refusal", and sensitive enough to the music that
he heard what I discovered in it. He later remarked to several
people "You just gotta dance Di Sarli with her!"
I'm not sure what the moral of that story is, but if there is
one, follow it! It was a fabulous experience!
Hyla
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:26:10 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: hidden deep tango conversations
Excellent posts, Hyla. Your last one of what
encouraged you to participate more fully in the dance
reminded me of what causes me to NOT fully
participate.
It usually comes down to several things:
1. My partner is relatively nonresponsive (which has
been discussed at length).
2. Fear of making a mistake (already discussed).
3. My partner shows too much personal interest.
The last one is something that I have been discussing
lately with some locals. How can one be expressive
without eliciting undesired attention? Perhaps one
cannot. I am fortunate to have dance partnerships in
which we can both experience a full range of emotional
expression. But I can see where others cannot get
past the eroticism of tango or the eroticism is an end
in itself. I think of it as a nice byproduct.
Perhaps, as one of my partners has suggested, it is a
matter of tango maturity.
I have the magic words "my husband" that I use to draw
boundaries, but I do not know how to advise my single
female students on this. We try to lead by example
and encourage everyone to feel the music and be
expressive. By knowing what it feels like to be
"safe" with us, it helps all of our students recognize
the line between connecting for the dance and
connecting for other things. They can then choose
their partners wisely. That seems to be working and I
am glad our students feel they can talk to us about
this. For me, though, talking about it with them is a
little like explaining the birds and the bees - not an
entirely comfortable subject.
Comments?
Still an old-fashioned Southern gal from the Bible
Belt,
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:22:55 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] hidden deep tango conversations
How can one be expressive
> without eliciting undesired attention?
> I have the magic words "my husband" that I use to draw
> boundaries,>
Still an old-fashioned Southern gal from the Bible
> Belt,
> Trini ...
Oh, yes, I can see that....; )
To me, Jonathan's posting was interesting, about those few special people
who are able to sense and express a wider, more finely tuned range of
sensual perception. Or something to that extent.
To me, tango is seduction heightened to an art form. And those magic words
of Trini's would not work for me at all....Socially sanctioned, documented,
registered forms of relations can really be an antidote to the art of
seduction, which usually happens spontaneously and naturally and sometimes
without intent, IMHO.
Be that as it may, Japan is certainly a much more unaggressive country, so
these experiences are usually enjoyed in silence here, and sometimes without
even acknowledging to the dance partner by a look, a nod or a word, that
that special feeling during the dance really happened. The music stops and
both simply bow and walk away...
Certains moves in tango, as I see them, are all about pursuit and evasion
and it's interplay, such as sacadas, paradas, e.g.
Astrid
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:46:06 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: hidden deep tango conversations
Trini or Sean - PATangoS wrote:
>
> The last one is something that I have been discussing
> lately with some locals. How can one be expressive
> without eliciting undesired attention? Perhaps one
> cannot.
Simple. We tell our students, "yes, it's the three-minute love affair,
but what goes on, on the dance floor, doesn't come off the dance floor,
unless it's by mutual consent." And if the guy can't take the hint
(sorry, it's usually us guys that need to hit with the clue stick) and
the lady can't handle it herself (which the vast majority can), the
woman can come talk to me and *I'll* handle it. (Michael smiling his
best Luca Brasi smile here)
Also, we tell them they're not under any obligation to dance with
anyone, male or female, that makes them the slightest bit uncomfortable.
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:48:34 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: [TANGO-L] hidden deep tango conversations
To take Astrids response a bit further, the dance floor is a different
context than the bedroom. Both are contexts in which feelings around
seduction, pursuit and evasion can be explored, but they involve quite
different vocabularies.
For some people though, the feelings are the context though.
astrid wrote:
> How can one be expressive
>
>
>>without eliciting undesired attention?
>>I have the magic words "my husband" that I use to draw
>>boundaries,>
>>
>>
>Still an old-fashioned Southern gal from the Bible
>
>
>>Belt,
>>Trini ...
>>
>>
>
>Oh, yes, I can see that....; )
>To me, Jonathan's posting was interesting, about those few special people
>who are able to sense and express a wider, more finely tuned range of
>sensual perception. Or something to that extent.
>To me, tango is seduction heightened to an art form. And those magic words
>of Trini's would not work for me at all....Socially sanctioned, documented,
>registered forms of relations can really be an antidote to the art of
>seduction, which usually happens spontaneously and naturally and sometimes
>without intent, IMHO.
>Be that as it may, Japan is certainly a much more unaggressive country, so
>these experiences are usually enjoyed in silence here, and sometimes without
>even acknowledging to the dance partner by a look, a nod or a word, that
>that special feeling during the dance really happened. The music stops and
>both simply bow and walk away...
>Certains moves in tango, as I see them, are all about pursuit and evasion
>and it's interplay, such as sacadas, paradas, e.g.
>
>Astrid
>
>
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:07:53 -0400
From: Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@YAHOO.CA>
Subject: Re: hidden deep tango conversations
Christopher L. Everett wrote:
> To take Astrids response a bit further, the dance
> floor is a different context than the bedroom.
> Both are contexts in which feelings around
> seduction, pursuit and evasion can be explored,
> but they involve quite different vocabularies.
In the bedroom, seduction is a means to an end.
On the dance floor, tango is the means,
seduction IS the end.
Miguel
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:02:22 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: hidden deep tango conversations
Hyla Dickenson wrote:
> When my technique was not good enough
>
> or density throughout my body, the weight of
> my footfall. I would alter the feel of the
> embrace, snuggle in or be more aloof.
Expressing yourself invisibly, that is master
class material, if it is taught at all.
> This is something that the more sensitive and
> musical leaders will always notice, even when
> I don't notice it myself.
As a leader, I enjoy both active and involuntary
responses, but I enjoy it more if I knew that
the responses were involuntary.
> I'm not sure what the moral of that story is,
> but if there is one, follow it! It was a
> fabulous experience!
It may be this:
It takes two to tango. The follower does have
a say in this venture.
May we all have active followers and responsive leaders.
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:14:30 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: hidden deep tango conversations
Music is a pathway to finding connection, so is imagination.
--Steve
Hyla wrote:
>I was dancing with a man whose
>musicality I really respect. It was a practica, they were
>playing the slow instrumental Di Sarli. I was just starting to
>make the transition from thinking of Di Sarli as "that slow,
>simple, boring, out of date beginner's music" but I wasn't quite
>there yet. This man began leading things that made no sense to
>me, but as I said, I really respected his musicality. So I
>started listening listening to find what he could possibly be
>hearing in the music, trying to make his lead work. I did not
>want to do something to embarrass myself and lose his respect.
>I began hearing things in that music that opened Di Sarli out in
>ways I could never have imagined. It's not simple! Not boring
>at all! My gosh, the layers of complexity, the opportunities
>for subtlety and finesse!
>At the end of the tanda, this man said, "gee, I was trying to
>see all through that dance if I could make you dance
>unmusically, and I just couldn't make you do it!" Because I
>assumed that he was leading musically, I unconsciously
>refused to dance unmusically and thus forced him to allow me to
>find a musical moment to dance to. Which in turn forced me to
>look for, and find, more of those moments in the depths of the
>music. It worked because he was sensitive enough to me that he
>respected my "refusal", and sensitive enough to the music that
>he heard what I discovered in it. He later remarked to several
>people "You just gotta dance Di Sarli with her!"
>I'm not sure what the moral of that story is, but if there is
>one, follow it! It was a fabulous experience!
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:05:20 -0500
From: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: hidden deep tango conversations
Funny thing is that in my 4 years of tango, and I have enjoyed it to the
fullest, I never once had any thought other than the dancefloor. I have
several times been accused of having alterior motives, but that is patently
false.
Tango is my time for hug therapy, that is all. I think everyone in my
region is pretty much the same way.
Gibson
Saint Paul
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:10:21 -0500
From: Keith Elshaw <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Conversations
To: TANGO-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
It's easy to put oneself in a category, noticing that many other dancers are
not the same.
We could be new or experienced; like to dance close, or not; prefer nuevo or
not, etc.
Here is a category I am in: I don't REALLY enjoy dancing if there is no
conversation. By that I mean - both people expressing themselves.
For this to happen, the leader has to allow it - invite it. If he dances
always doing what he wants without giving the woman space and time to decide
little things for herself sometimes, the conversation cannot take place on a
meaningful level of interaction.
Well, it's a topic I have given thought to for a while because it really has
impacted on my dancing enjoyment.
More at ToTANGO.net.
