919 Inside a Beginner Man's Mind
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:36:27 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Inside a Beginner Man's Mind
I've read a lot of mail about poor leading, defined as wet noodle and not
clear.
I'm NOT going to defend but try to explain what goes on inside a beginner
man's head when he starts taking tango lessons. I'm not an expert but
I WAS a beginner leader.
What might be obvious to teachers and followers is NOT
necessarily obvious to beginner men.
First, as a slight digression, women are like tops. They come in all
sizes,
large, small, round, square, etc. But all tops have something in common.
Their axis is right through the middle onto the spindle. Regardless of
size,
the top spins on its spindle. Now to apply to this women.
When a woman dances, she should be on ONLY one foot (except for paradas
and other figures I can't think of anymore at the moment.) Whichever foot
she is
standing is the spindle of a top. Her axis should be straight up and
down.
However, most men (even those beyond beginner level) are stiff in their
frame.
This means they CAN'T feel which foot the woman is standing (even though
it's
their responsibility to know). They see an instructor lead Salida. They
DON'T see
that the woman is on one foot poised to move and that the lead is subtle.
What do beginner men see? They see 100 pounds of woman, 125 pounds of
woman,
that have to be MOVED, NOT LEAD. Beginner men DON'T understand that a
lead is
an invitation for the woman to step. The woman has to MOVE HERSELF
AFTER she knows where she is to move. The man thinks he's moving
furniture
which requires an OOMPH!!
I don't know how many teachers teach this next point. Even though the man
leads,
the woman STEPS FIRST and the man moves a split second later. As Carlos
Gavito
once said "I lead but I follow." The man matches the size of the woman's
step. If the man
steps first (let's say for Salida) and if his step is larger than the
woman's, HE is now out
of alignment with his partner. If the man steps first, it's probably with
his foot, not his chest.
Now, let's talk about the right arm. The man's right arm should be firmly
around the
woman's back. I place my arm around the small of her back. My arm is part
of my
frame and has to be firm to keep the woman in front of me. (I dance close
embrace.
There are different rules for open position. Since I don't like open,
others can talk about it.)
The right arm has to be snug. My teacher has said numerous times in his
group classes
"That's not being fresh. It's called leading.)
Now to answer complaints about weak leads. I'm interpreting "weak" as
unclear.
Men are NOT known for having the flexibility that women have. I went to
weekly yoga
sessions with a private practitioner for three years. Each week, she
wrung my body like
wringing water out of sponge. I couldn't believe the amount of tension I
collected over the
decades. (NO! I'm NOT telling you how old I am.) Men carry a lot of
tension and think
they are giving clear leads when they are NOT. They have difficulty
rotating their shoulders.
Their leads are probably too much OOMPH!! or not enough ("I don't want to
hurt the woman.")
What's to be done about this?
Women need to tell the men in class "I can't feel your lead," "I don't
know what you want."
If the man can't take feedback, write down his name AND NEVER DANCE WITH
HIM AGAIN!
I'll go out on a limb and say that beginner men don't know how to they
lead. Unless women
correct them, they will become convinced it's the woman who can't follow.
Talking
about following, men should try it. It's not so easy. I remember my
teacher told me
"Wait for the woman. She moves first." The day I finally understood what
he meant
occurred at one of his group classes. A woman led me in ochos. She wasn't
waiting for
me to pivot and come the opposite direction. All she did was step
sideways and
not think of me. That was a wake up call. I learned the expression
"Sweeping the floor with
the woman." The woman is whipped through ochos.
Bottom line: Women need to tell the men they can't determine the lead or
they are
being overpowered. Ladies: You'll be doing the men a big favor!!
Michael
Washington, DC
Only 3 more years before I can retire to New York (unless the federal
government offers early out retirement.)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:11:47 -0800
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inside a Beginner Man's Mind
A friend of mine wrote me this interesting note about the problem with
the beginners.
Elemer,
Not too clearly stated but an inkling of what is meant.
Usually beginner men lead heavily when all they need to do is shift their
weight. Also they need to understand what a frame is and not wiggle their
hips or sway their shoulders so their frame remains stable. Everything
depends on the squareness of the frame and the shifting of the weight. I
think that's all there is.
Most men don't hold a woman firmly enough. They are ambivalent, unsure of
their lead, so expect the woman to sort of accommodate but then they
complain
she is not waiting to be lead. it's a very fine line all along and takes
lots and lots of practice. No hurry, please.
Helen
Elemer from Redmond
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:36:27 -0500 Michael B Ditkoff
<tangomaniac@JUNO.COM> writes:
> I've read a lot of mail about poor leading, defined as wet noodle and
> not
> clear.
> I'm NOT going to defend but try to explain what goes on inside a
> beginner
>
> man's head when he starts taking tango lessons. I'm not an expert
> but
> I WAS a beginner leader.
>
> What might be obvious to teachers and followers is NOT
> necessarily obvious to beginner men.
>
> First, as a slight digression, women are like tops. They come in
> all
> sizes,
> large, small, round, square, etc. But all tops have something in
> common.
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:26:25 +1300
From: Bob Ramsey-Turner <bob.ramsey-turner@QUICKSILVER.NET.NZ>
Subject: Inside a Beginner Man's Mind
Lets put a little reality check into this.
I clearly remember after 8 weeks of beginners lessons. Like most, I was
taught steps, so I struggled to do the steps and to join one move with
another. I was a bag of nerves, the most used word in my vocabulary was
"sorry". I had little or no idea of what my partners were doing. Probably
no idea about leading. I did my steps and the lady did hers and somehow we
sort of did it together. When we were being shown something new, all we
looked at were the teachers feet, if you were the guy you watched the mans
feet, if you were the lady you watched the ladies feet, I am purposely
avoiding using the terms leaders and followers. There was almost no lead and
follow in the activity. I know this sounds awful, but that's how is was. As
for understanding the followers axis and which foot she was on, get real,
never gave it a thought.
Having read through the above, I am surprised I survived it and I'm still
around after 4 years. Just starting to improve
Happy New Year
With kind regards
Bob Ramsey-Turner
bob.ramsey-turner@quicksilver.net.nz
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:40:36 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inside a Beginner Man's Mind
Poor leads! There've been recent discussions about community growth
and the difficulty of retaining men, yet we're back to telling
beginning men how terrible they are. It's not as if they're being
intentionally bad. If I was a beginning lead reading this list, I
might give up on ever becoming good.
To the beginning leads out there - please keep trying! It's okay to
be a beginner. With practice you'll get better. If you can't find
encouragement where you're at, come to Pittsburgh.
> Women need to tell the men in class "I can't feel your lead," "I
> don't
> know what you want."
Better yet, followers, try putting it in more positive terms (not
"you're a beginner and you don't know what you're doing, but I know
everything even though this is my first class"). Something more like
"I'm having trouble following this. Could we try a firmer embrace
[or whatever]?"
Thinking positive thoughts in 2003,
Trini
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.patangos.org/
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 20:20:49 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Inside a beginner man's mind
Michael wrote:
"What do beginner men see? They see 100 pounds of
woman, 125 pounds of
woman,
that have to be MOVED, NOT LEAD. Beginner men DON'T
understand that a
lead is
an invitation for the woman to step. The woman has to
MOVE HERSELF
AFTER she knows where she is to move. The man thinks
he's moving
furniture
which requires an OOMPH!!
I don't know how many teachers teach this next point.
Even though the man
leads,
the woman STEPS FIRST and the man moves a split second
later. As Carlos
Gavito
once said "I lead but I follow." The man matches the
size of the woman's
step. If the man
steps first (let's say for Salida) and if his step is
larger than the
woman's, HE is now out
of alignment with his partner. If the man steps first,
it's probably with
his foot, not his chest."
The answer, Michael, is that NO, not many people seem
to teach this. This is only the SECOND time I've ever
heard it. And I've had lots of teachers. The first
time was from my technique specialist I've already
mentioned. Of course that's how it works. The man
waits for the woman. It's a mystery to me why more
people don't realize this. And that may be part of
the problem so many men have with the lead.
This particular instructor also has another
interesting philosophy about leading: "No leading by
mouth". If you can't lead it, you can't dance it.
Period. No lectures to the follower about all her
faults. At least not in his class. The only person
allowed to teach in his classes is him.
I had a wonderful experience this weekend. I danced
with a 17-year old high school student, who led
beautifully. He had only been dancing about a year,
had a punk hairdo and braces on his teeth. And he was
crazy about tango. His enthusiasm blew me away. It was
one of my more memorable tango moments. ;-)
Luda
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:18:27 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <shepherd@ARBORLAW.COM>
Subject: Re: Inside a Beginner Man's Mind
Bob and Beginner Men:
THANK YOU for putting this in perspective! Here's the woman's reality:
I appreciate ANY MAN who is trying to learn ANY DANCE. I am so
impressed with the guys who choose AT...AT is the most fun, the most
sexy, the most
physical, the most intellectual, the most creative dance...but it is
also THE TOUGHEST DANCE...huge learning curve if you are new to dancing.
Everyone forgets what it's like to be a beginner. It's like your golf
swing, fifty things to concentrate on all at the same time! People can
only pay attention to one thing at once, the feet, then comes the arms,
the frame, the lead. Ladies if you have never tried to lead, well you
should take a lesson or two, it will immediately change your attitude
about how easy and obvious the man's job is.
I agree the best way for ladies to give feedback is to always ASK first.
Your first choice should always be to suggest that you both go to the
teacher with a question--this is the most diplomatic and polite and
easiest on the guy's feelings. Even if you really know what's going on
and what would help, you STILL ALWAYS ASK FIRST--and really nicely: "I
have an idea that might help, would you like some feedback?"
That lets the leader say yes or no. He does not feel so harassed, and
you will also find out from his attitude if he wants no feedback at all
from you at that time (Or ever--he might be one of those). And don't
ask more than once a dance or lesson, let up on the poor guy!
Everyone needs praise and encouragement in their relationship to
dance--and everyone can learn to dance if they just "stick with it" so
help them stick with it! :)
Bob Ramsey-Turner wrote:
>
> Lets put a little reality check into this.
> I clearly remember after 8 weeks of beginners lessons. Like most, I was
> taught steps, so I struggled to do the steps and to join one move with
> another. I was a bag of nerves, the most used word in my vocabulary was
> "sorry". I had little or no idea of what my partners were doing. Probably
> no idea about leading. I did my steps and the lady did hers and somehow we
> sort of did it together. When we were being shown something new, all we
> looked at were the teachers feet, if you were the guy you watched the mans
> feet, if you were the lady you watched the ladies feet, I am purposely
> avoiding using the terms leaders and followers. There was almost no lead and
> follow in the activity. I know this sounds awful, but that's how is was. As
> for understanding the followers axis and which foot she was on, get real,
> never gave it a thought.
> Having read through the above, I am surprised I survived it and I'm still
> around after 4 years. Just starting to improve
> Happy New Year
>
> With kind regards
>
> Bob Ramsey-Turner
> bob.ramsey-turner@quicksilver.net.nz
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 822 4646 f
734 786 1241 e fax
https://www.arborlaw.com
business, technology, entertainment
and media law
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 03:52:25 EST
From: "Laurie Moseley (at home)" <LGMoseley@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inside a Beginner Man's Mind
I agree that many of the teachers whom I meet, at least in the UK, do not try
to communicate the fundamental idea, either to the men or to the women. The
problem arises from the word "lead", which in English has an overtone of
power. In Spanish it is "marcar", which I understand as "indicate", and which
has the overtone of "invitation" or "temptation". In English, Carlos Gavito,
in one class that I attended, expressed it as
"the man indicates, the woman leads, the man follows"
It encourages the man to stop the "power" thoughts and to replace them with
"inviting" thoughts. It also encourages the lady to wait, but to wait for an
indication, not for a step from the man.
To do it, the man has to concentrate on the indication from his body,
particularly from the chest. The feet are unimportant until the lady has
moved and made space for him to step. In our own teaching we use exercises
specifically for learning this difference. One simple example is to do the
following:
1.Form the embrace in the usual inverted slight V shape
2. Man puts the lady's weight on the intended foot
3. Man moves his chest slightly forward, but does NOT move his feet
4. Stop at that point and let the class look at where your body and feet are
5. The lady will normally have taken her first backward step, but the man has
not moved his feet at all
(If not, try again !)
6. Now and only now, he can step into the space that she has provided
If at point 4 above, the learners look at the man's feet, they should see
that those feet have not moved. That should get the point across. It is
something which can be practised, and seems to generalise to other positions
than merely the starting embrace.
Years ago, when I was a ballroom aficionado, I had one very good teacher who
used the concept of "slow feet". This left me baffled, as I couldn't see how
the feet on their own could be slow, without the rest of the body being slow.
Now that I dance and teach Tango, the concept has become clear.
Abrazos
Laurie (Lorenzo)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:39:25 -0800
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inside a Beginner Man's Mind
--- Carol Shepherd <shepherd@ARBORLAW.COM> wrote:
> I appreciate ANY MAN who is trying to learn ANY
> DANCE.
Thanks for contributing this letter.
One thing that bugs me is the frequency that men's
motives are maligned. So often, it is implied that
poor leading is a result of what men lack in terms of
dedication or consideration, rather than acknowledging
that leading simply is a skill that is tremendously
difficult to cultivate well and requires a certain
amount of time just to "tough it out", as one recent
poster put it.
I never expected anyone to roll out a red carpet for
me when I just couldn't do anything at all, but even
so there have always been gracious and fun-spirited
dancers who have extended themselves to me.
Men who do "tough it out" remember who toughed it out
with them.
Jai
NYC
=====
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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:20:16 -0600
From: guy barbe <gbarbe@CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Inside a beginner Man's Mind
In response to Carol Shepherd's post. Thank you Carol for your kind words
for us guys and your patience with me at the CITTA99. Remember the back
sacada poorly lead hitting your ankle? I now know what was wrong then and,
have abandoned the "fantasia" style for the closed embrace. The next time I
am in the Detroit area I will look you up in Ann Harbor and have a dance
with you, no need for ankle guard anymore!
Happy dancing.
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:51:28 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inside a beginner man's mind
--- luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Even though the man leads,
> the woman STEPS FIRST and the man moves a split
> second later. As Carlos Gavito
> once said "I lead but I follow."
>
> The answer, Michael, is that NO, not many people
> seem to teach this. This is only the SECOND time
I've
> ever heard it.
Well, I've heard it before, and plenty, on the list
especially (so get your friends on the list, as was
recently suggested!). On the other hand, I _didn't_
hear it when I was a beginner. Or maybe I heard it,
but didn't understand it. And if you think it's
brutal to watch a beginning leader try to force the
follower into place, imagine if the follower thinks
they have to wait to be moved! Back to the
incompetent leading the incompetent...
Marisa
