3500 Introduction of Tango to Paris
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:07:38 -0400
From: David Koucky <davidkoucky@MSN.COM>
Subject: Introduction of Tango to Paris
Thank You Bruno You are a light in the darkness,
For those of you who ponder historical matters:
Bruno has reminded us that the belle époque was a great time of social liberation. In fact following the revolutions of 1848, Paris became the =
home of the bohemian lifestyle. The rive gauche or left bank became a home for liberated souls. The polkas, redowas and mazurkas of eastern =
Europe would give way to a danse libre of these disposessed rebels and students of the time.
It should be no small wonder that the children and grandchildren of the free thinkers should be a fertile ground for tango. It appears that =
tango had a greater time to develop before the great craze of the teens (1912 to 1917). This is enough foundation for the blossoming of the =
Tango craze.
One small answer will always lead to more questions. Please forgive me if you find me a pest. If tango arrived much earlier than is commonly =
supposed, then the sources of the Spanish Tango Andalusia may be confused. Is there another layer of cross pollination here? Was there =
an Argentine influence to the Spanish influence to the Argentine Tango? I am dancing in circles, perhaps I am the only one to enjoy it.
Another question concerns the European and United States Idea of Tango Music. We generally think the Tango became sad around 1917. This is =
about the time that the tune Lita becomes Mi Noche Triste. If tango arrived be fore this date, then where did the melodrama of the =
continental music come from?
The French had the good taste to import Argentine musicians. In fact, milongas can be heard in the bal musette of that era. Somehow the rest =
of us did not notice the Argentine music when we imagined what a tango must be.
Well, Thank You for Your Time,
Dave K.
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:21:02 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Introduction of Tango to Paris
David Koucky wrote:
>Was there an Argentine influence to the Spanish influence to the Argentine
Tango?<
Yes, by 1880 the Argentine influence appear in what they were called "tangos
andaluces acriollados" according to Roberto Selles: “So much [was the
influence] that Eduardo García Lalanne included it in "Soy el rubio
Pichinango", 3rd Part of the play "Ensalada criolla", with script of Enrique
Demaría and José Podestá...” this initial theme reappears in Spain in "el
Bolero Clásico", of Francisco Balaguer. Afterwards, the theater criollo from
the XIX century re-named it "La quincena (2 weeks)" and "No me importa que
me lleven a mí preso (I don't care if I am taken to jail)". Although, it was
popularly known with the andalucian titles of "La Tinaja (The vat/jar)" and
"No me tires con la tapa de la olla (Don't throw me the [pot] lid)",
The andaluzian version:
“No me tires con la tapa de la olla porque se abolla, porque se abolla.
No me tires con la tapa de la olla porque se abolla, ya se abolló.
No me tires con la tapa ´e la tinaja porque se raja, porque se raja.
No me tires con la tapa ´e la tinaja porque se raja, ya se rajó”.
The version criolla:
“No me tires con la tapa de la olla porque se abolla, porque se abolla.
No me tires con la tapa ´e la tinaja porque se raja, se va a rajar (o ´por
la mitad´)”.
The estribillo (single chorus line)–- apparently added in Buenos Aires --
says:
“Si se abolla yo te abollo, si se raja yo te rajo,
si se rompe yo te rompo de un trompazo la nariz”.
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:29:54 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Introduction of Tango to Paris
David wrote:
>One small answer will always lead to more questions. Please forgive me if
you find me a pest. If tango arrived much earlier than is commonly
supposed, then the sources of the Spanish Tango Andalusia may be confused.
Is there another layer of cross pollination here? Was there an Argentine
influence to the Spanish influence to the Argentine Tango? I am dancing in
circles, perhaps I am the only >one to enjoy it.
Andalusian tango and Argentine tango are not the same at all. I have read in
an Argentine text that flamenco is one of the roots of tango (brought over
from Spain to BA), but I very much doubt it that Argentine tango influenced
the tango in Andalusia. The Spanish one is only one of the many different
flamenco dances. From my learning experience with both dances, and my
knowledge of flamenco is a lot smaller, I can see the following elements
that they have in common:
-the proud posture (which is much more pronounced in flamenco)
-the dancing "into" the ground
-the taconeo (a heel tap)
-the boleo (which is not called so in flamenco, but there is a very similar
movement)
-a tap with the toe of one foot, which in tango is sometimes used in a boleo
-the molinete. Only, in flamenco, the molinete is a step sequence that is
stretched out, not round, and walked to the side
-the jerky head movement to the side which is used in ballroom tango
and last but not least the whole atmosphere, the attitude of the dancer.
Again, in flamenco this is much more extreme, but also in tango, a good
dancer holds a certain amount of tension and tone in his entire body which
creates a high voltage dance. The same can be expressed in the face, and
some men's expression in stage tango are similar to those of flamenco
dancers.
On the other hand, I very much doubt it, that Parisian tango had any
influence on the flamenco culture of Andalusia. Flamenco dancers were no bar
flies or lounge lizards, they had gipsy parties, often dancing outside. Or,
according to Tony Gatlif in the movie "Vengo", girls would hop up and dance
on the table during a party...
>Another question concerns the European and United States Idea of Tango
Music. We generally think the Tango became sad around 1917. This is about
the time that the tune Lita becomes Mi Noche Triste. If tango arrived be
fore this date, then where did the >melodrama of the continental music come
from?
The sadness in tango came, to my knowledge, from the fact, that the Italian
immigrants in BsAs found themselves unable to return to their home country,
after they realised that they could not make it in Argentina. And from the
lack of women.
The melodrama in continental tango may well have been the influence of the
paso doble, another Spanish dance. Or from the simple fact, that this is
what may be bound to happen if some Northern European is trying to put on a
"Latin macho"-act. ; )
>The French had the good taste to import Argentine musicians. In fact,
milongas can be heard in the bal musette of that era. >Somehow the rest of
us did not notice the Argentine music when we imagined what a tango must be.
It was less a matter of good taste, and more of a matter of accepting
Argentine refugess, I would say...
Now, I am sure, this issue will continue to become muddled and confused on
the list, with misconceptions and half truths galore, but anyway, I hope,
this helps.
Astrid
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:32:17 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Introduction of Tango to Paris
The andaluzian version:
No me tires con la tapa de la olla porque se abolla, porque se abolla.
No me tires con la tapa de la olla porque se abolla, ya se abolls.
No me tires con la tapa 4e la tinaja porque se raja, porque se raja.
No me tires con la tapa 4e la tinaja porque se raja, ya se rajs.
The version criolla:
No me tires con la tapa de la olla porque se abolla, porque se abolla.
No me tires con la tapa 4e la tinaja porque se raja, se va a rajar (o 4por
la mitad4).
The estribillo (single chorus line)- apparently added in Buenos Aires --
says:
Si se abolla yo te abollo, si se raja yo te rajo,
si se rompe yo te rompo de un trompazo la nariz.
Would you care to translate that?
Astrid
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:06:46 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Introduction of Tango to Paris
David Koucky wrote:
>Another question concerns the European and United States Idea of Tango
Music. We generally think the Tango became sad around 1917. This is about
the time that the tune Lita becomes Mi Noche Triste. If tango arrived be
fore this date, then where did the melodrama of the continental music come
from? <
Another opinion:
(From Andres M. Carretero)
Strangely enough the popularity of Tango in Paris and its spread to other
main European cities meant a change in its rhythm. The tango was transformed
from upbeat, quick, and lively (picadito) into melancholic, slow, melodic,
and with accentuated measures. This was to simulate the orderly lifestyle of
the well to do people of those times -- meaning no surprises, and blunt
changes in the music.
Some argue that the bandoneon as lead instrument and conductor of the tango
music progressively took away and irreversibly the quick rhythm from the
Milonga inherent in the Tango. Others argue that the inclusion of the
singers was responsible for the change from quick to slow rhythm in Tango.
One area which has not been considered was the lack of dance skills of the
new dancers who were massively and incrementally joining in the dances
daily. This can be validated through the national and municipal census
between 1869 and 1914, especially for people of the ages between 20 - 40
years old. The social dances assured a minimal social life.
Since it was not easy to incorporate so many people at once as dancers, who
lacked basic knowledge of the tango choreography, there were two ways to
facilitate their incorporation into the tango dance.
One, consisted in making the tango rhythm slow, and two, was in simplifying
the tango choreography. Also, should be factored in the time taken to bring
up to speed the musicians who were musically illiterate to learn musical
theory, and proper use of the instruments. However, once these skills were
learned they were put to use to improve musicality rather than in speeding
up the music.
These changes in the tango music and choreography allowed newcomers to
better learn the tango steps and prevented them from being object of
ridicule on the dance floor. This may be the beginnings of the Tango Liso in
the Tango.
Best regards,
Bruno
