3402 Invitation to the dance
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 19:37:48 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Invitation to the dance
Dancers arrive in Buenos Aires to go to the milongas. Those who come for
the first time have a lot learn about the codes and customs. During the
past six years, I've experienced the various ways a woman can be invited to
dance.
1. Verbal invitation at the woman's table.
This is probably the easiet and most acceptable form for tourists since it
achieves the desired results--they get to dance. What they aren't aware of
is that the men who go directly to a woman's table to invite her to dance do
so because (1) she is a tourist and (2) she will accept his invitation.
What the women don't know is that these local dancers only dance with
tourists because they aren't good dancers. These men will continue to
invite the same women to dance for hours. If the women never decline, they
won't have the opportunity to dance with others. If you are willing to
dance with bad dancers, the good dancers will never invite you. Ignore the
man who comes to your table and he won't bother you again. You don't have
to say anything. He will get the message. However, if you don't care how
he dances, you can accept.
2. Invitation with a nod (called the cabeceo)
This is the most common way of inviting a woman to dance. A man makes eye
contact with a woman from his table. If she wants to dance with him, she
indicates with a nod in response. If not, she merely looks away and no one
knows that she has rejected him. There is a mutual agreement between two
people. The man knows whether or not she wants to dance and proceeds
accordingly.
3. Invitation from across the room -- bailas?
This is another form which is used by many of the better dancers. After
catching the attention of the woman he wants to invite, a man will often
smile and move his lips--bailas?-- that is to say, do you want to dance?
You have to read his lips. A woman can respond with a smile or other facial
expression or movement of the head. If she doesn't want to dance, she
merely looks in another direction.
4. And then there are the milongueros -- VAMOS!
They are the best dancers and carefully select with whom they want to dance.
They wait for the orchestra they enjoy most. They may not dance a complete
tanda. All eyes are on these men who dance very little, but very well.
It's all about being patient and knowing which orchestra is their favorite.
It happens in a split second and the invitation is subtle. They don't ask a
woman, because they know women are waiting to dance with them. Their
invitation is done by the movement of the lips -- vamos! There's no
movement of the head. When they're ready to dance, a woman is glad that she
is one of the chosen. The milongueros have to see a woman dancing before
they will invite her. A milonguero wants to dance well or not at all.
Janis Kenyon
School of the Milongueros
Buenos Aires
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:47:30 -0400
From: "A. Taniche" <ataniche@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Invitation to the dance
> Dancers arrive in Buenos Aires to go to the milongas. Those who come for
> the first time have a lot learn about the codes and customs. During the
> past six years, I've experienced the various ways a woman can be invited to
> dance.
Well, it has been a while since I have been to B.A., but if that's how it is, I'm not sure I want any part of it! I know that Tango includes a large component of role playing, but Good Lord... who acts like those milongueros Janis Kenyon described? VAMOS?? Please!
Only the invitation with a nod, is something that I had heard about. The rest of it, I have NO idea what she is talking about. Lip reading across the room? Sh#t..I have a hard enough time sometimes seeing guys across the room in the dark, much less reading their lips.
The interaction here in the States I understand to be different than in B.A., but in general it includes a respect for the potential partner, that I do not see in evidence in her descriptions of the treatment of tourists, or even the "very good" dancers.
Here, the request for a dance is a more direct interaction... the men walk up to the women rather than signal... and then they are accepted or declined. I still have a question about whether the women in B.A. simply ignore someone to signal rejection, or whether there is a more courteous way to decline an invitation.
Do the Argentine codes of behavior include the snobbery she describes? I can't imagine... People are only human, and everyone probably wants to dance with the best dancers they can... but I think a real passion for the tango suggests a code and ethic that seem to be missing here.
Anita
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 05:50:04 +0100
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMAÑSKI
<arrabaltango@YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Invitation to the dance
--- Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR> wrote:
[.......]
> What the women don't know is that these local
> dancers only dance with
> tourists because they aren't good dancers. These
> men will continue to
> invite the same women to dance for hours. If the
> women never decline, they
> won't have the opportunity to dance with others.
Replace "tourist" with "new face" and you get a
description of what happens in any milonga in the
world. Lousy dancers always go for new women [often
pretending to teach them, usually in everybody's way
on the dance floor], because the local ones have made
them understand that they were not appreciated.
If
> you are willing to
> dance with bad dancers, the good dancers will never
> invite you.
This is because practise doesn't make perfect, but it
certainly makes permanent. It is pointless to
accumulate & consolidate bad habits which will then
deter good dancers, even where the gender imbalance is
quite high. It pays in the long run to be selective,
and aim for quality, not quantity.
The "Codigo" referred to is not peculiar to Bs As; it
takes place in London, Paris, Spain, Italy &c....in
any milonga that has its regulars. Outsiders will
obviously find it weird, since they are not familiar
with the space. I find it a perfectly normal way of
proceeding, naturally informal and basically primeval,
but to newcomers it has the intricate appearance of a
masonic ritual, so they call it a "Code", which it
isn't at all.
The invitation actually, on a more experienced level
anyway, usually comes from the woman: better dancers
usually stay around the perimeter of the floor, rarely
venturing into the middle, and they obviously have to
keep an eye out for other couples, tables, chairs and
anybody on them. They therefore can't help noticing as
they dance [if they have any brains] the women sitting
there that give them that "You better ask me to dance
once you got rid of her, or else!" kind of look -
Latin women are especially good at this, but they are
not the only ones - and know very well who to walk up
to subsequently and get a positive response without
saying a word.
Cheers,
Andy.
Andrew W. RYSER SZYMAQSKI,
16, Lancaster Road,
London, W11 1QP,
020-7221 4643
07944 128 739.
Does your mail provider give you access to messages sent to other POP email accounts, like your work account?
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 02:14:57 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Invitation to the dance
My question is to a person who said this:
> you are willing to
> dance with bad dancers, the good dancers will never
> invite you.
And to Andrew too, since he supports it.
Are you that sort of person who do not dance with those who dance with "bad"
dancers?
Igor Polk
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 02:54:04 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Invitation to the dance
What surprised me in Janis'es sentense that, for example
when I come to a milonga, I ask myself, who is new here, is she a good
dancer, and my eyes are on the dancers - not on those who sit. So I watch
how a new person dances. I do not care with whom.
Andrew,
I believe it is a matter of personal strength.
If you are such a person who sits in the corner waiting when a good dancer
will deign to invite you, so you will sit.
If you are proacive, you will dance, and make your own circle, and teach in
the dance what you can, and grow up with your partners. It is only a matter
of time when your friends become as good as those another person still is
waiting for in the corner. Even better.
Igor Polk
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:59:00 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Invitation to the dance
Dear Igor,
> My question is to a person who said this:
>
> > you are willing to
> > dance with bad dancers, the good dancers will never invite you.
>
> And to Andrew too, since he supports it.
>
> Are you that sort of person who do not dance with those who
> dance with "bad"
> dancers?
I am sure everyone understands your point. However, being so direct might be
a start for a new flame war. I am quite sure we don't want that.
I do belive everyone is entitled to his/her customs.
I participate quite a bit in the tango life of my country. Therefore, I felt
obliged to create the custom of dancing with at least one or two ladies I
don't usually dance with at every milonga. This includes beginners.
Actually, it feels quite an accomplishment when I can make a beginner feel
that she is a fine dancer. In my experience these dances are the best
possible advertisement for my capabilities as a leader and not the contrary.
Probably the pre-selection you described is based on some unconscious
reasoning: if the lady is willing to dance with him (who is lousy dancer),
and she dances with him regularly, then it means it doesn't bother her.
Obviously, if she would feel bad, she wouldn't dance with him. However, she
does, which means she doesn't feel the difference, thus she is probably not
a good dancer.
Apparently, some guys presume that women are inherently selfish...
IMHO a milonga is not a charity event. Everyone is entitled to choose a
partner s/he likes. Nor men nor women has an unwritten obligation to dance
with people they don't want to. Obviously, this does not empower us to
create stupid prejudices about who is a good dancer or a bad one - see it
for yourself, dance with her/him! One bad dance won't crush your ego...
Cheers,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.milonga.hu/
"Follow those who seek the truth.
Run from those who claim to have found it."
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:30:00 -0500
From: Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM>
Subject: Invitation to the dance
What was said:
“milongueros. I read that they "may not dance an entire tanda"..."all
eyes are on these men who dance very little but very well".
I am sorry but I do not feel an admiration toward such “milongueros.”
It appears there may be some insecurity in a leader who only dances
with very skilled followers. Any experienced leader can dance
skillfully and “very well” if he is only dancing with experienced
followers.
To me it seems the true test of a skilled leader is to be able to make
every woman look good no matter what her skill level is.
What keeps me dancing tango is the challenge. The challenge that each
partner and every tango presents. My self imposed challenge is to
continue to grow and prosper in my dance.
I will continue to dance every tango I am able even those I do not care
much for and with every lady who will say yes no matter what her
experience level. For where is the challenge and the test in only
dancing to favorite music with skilled followers. And if a lady turns
me down because I dance on occasion with beginners it bothers me not
for there are others who will accept. One of my pleasures to dancing
tango is finding out if my lead is clear enough for all partners to
accurately read.
But I will agree that dancing with skilled followers is most
pleasurable for the dance then ascends to higher levels of ecstasy.
Leonardo K.
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:22:05 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Invitation to the dance
Folks,
you should know the cabeceo is not universally applied in BA. If you are there on Sunday with nothing better to do, you could go check out the dancing at La Glorieta (7-11pm, free admission, mediocre DJ), an outdoor bandstand in a park at Echeverria and 11 de Septiembre, in Belgrano, about 12-15 pesos by cab from downtown, due North past Palermo.
I went there on my recent trip and was quite taken aback by the MO of inviting. Men will position themselves a meter or two in front of you and if you're not looking in their direction, they will start gesturing wildly and waving at you, even verbally asking if you want to dance. There is really no avoiding them, if you avert your eyes they will just reposition themselves into your field of vision, or just come up to you and ask. And I thought the shoulder tappers in New York were just about the boldest guys around. Not so! These guys will not take ignoring them for an answer. In fact, you have to shout back No, or shake your head or wave your hand dismissively. Even standing next to the guys I came with proved only scant protection. I resented the whole situation, having to refuse in a rude way, something I am not used to doing because up here, the bad dancers are more timid or even polite especially if they are beginners and I have no problem dancing with with a beginner if he asks
nicely. Result, at Glorieta I didn't refuse often enough and I danced with one guy who crashed me full speed into another couple and didn't even apologize, to me or to the crashees. Another guy was everywhere except on the beat. It was not the highlight of my trip. On the other hand, some male non-Argentine friends who were with me (EXCELLENT dancers, by the way) danced with local girls (who were perfectly good followers) and didn't think the Glorieta experience was so awful at all. So I guess it goes both ways.
I say thank goodness for the cabeceo. We apply it even in our little university tango club community where everybody knows everybody by name.
Tine
Andrew RYSER SZYMAQSKI <arrabaltango@YAHOO.CO.UK> wrote:--- Janis Kenyon wrote:
[.......]
> What the women don't know is that these local
> dancers only dance with
> tourists because they aren't good dancers. These
> men will continue to
> invite the same women to dance for hours. If the
> women never decline, they
> won't have the opportunity to dance with others.
Replace "tourist" with "new face" and you get a
description of what happens in any milonga in the
world. Lousy dancers always go for new women [often
pretending to teach them, usually in everybody's way
on the dance floor], because the local ones have made
them understand that they were not appreciated.
If
> you are willing to
> dance with bad dancers, the good dancers will never
> invite you.
This is because practise doesn't make perfect, but it
certainly makes permanent. It is pointless to
accumulate & consolidate bad habits which will then
deter good dancers, even where the gender imbalance is
quite high. It pays in the long run to be selective,
and aim for quality, not quantity.
The "Codigo" referred to is not peculiar to Bs As; it
takes place in London, Paris, Spain, Italy &c....in
any milonga that has its regulars. Outsiders will
obviously find it weird, since they are not familiar
with the space. I find it a perfectly normal way of
proceeding, naturally informal and basically primeval,
but to newcomers it has the intricate appearance of a
masonic ritual, so they call it a "Code", which it
isn't at all.
The invitation actually, on a more experienced level
anyway, usually comes from the woman: better dancers
usually stay around the perimeter of the floor, rarely
venturing into the middle, and they obviously have to
keep an eye out for other couples, tables, chairs and
anybody on them. They therefore can't help noticing as
they dance [if they have any brains] the women sitting
there that give them that "You better ask me to dance
once you got rid of her, or else!" kind of look -
Latin women are especially good at this, but they are
not the only ones - and know very well who to walk up
to subsequently and get a positive response without
saying a word.
Cheers,
Andy.
Andrew W. RYSER SZYMAQSKI,
16, Lancaster Road,
London, W11 1QP,
020-7221 4643
07944 128 739.
Does your mail provider give you access to messages sent to other POP email accounts, like your work account?
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
www.yaletangoclub.org
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Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:05:49 -0500
From: Joe Grohens <grohens@UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Invitation to the dance
At 11:30 AM -0500 5/9/05, Leonardo Kunkayo wrote:
>What was said:
>
>³milongueros. I read that they "may not dance an
>entire tanda"..."all eyes are on these men who
>dance very little but very well".
>
>I am sorry but I do not feel an admiration toward such ³milongueros.²
I myself am a person who dances almost every
dance, and in our town, where we always have
dozens of beautiful talented interested (and
interesting) women sitting and waiting and
waiting and waiting for a chance to dance, I
dance with as many of them as I can. They love
the tango, and they just want a chance to dance
it. (I am talking about a small university town
in the midwest of the United States.)
But: These old men in Buenos Aires who have
danced tango their whole lives and know the tango
to its bones... they choose their dances
carefully, and when they dance, I think that they
wager their whole soul on it. It is an art. It is
sublime. Their moments on the floor are deeply
rich with meaning.
I admire those men who will not settle for less
than the ultimate. We should not criticize their
high standards.
I remember an Olympic marathon runner (Benji
Durden) who explained why he gave up running and
instead took up cross country skiing and
snow-showing. In his prime his goal was to finish
first, and he often did. When he got older and
could no longer win races, he lost interest in
racing. He preferred other pursuits where he
could meet new challenges rather than fail where
he had previously been on top. I remember
thinking, too bad, he is giving up something he
loves. But what he loved was excellence.
If you are mediocre (as I am) you can be happy
just to be trying to improve, and learning, and
having experiences, and hitting high points, and
looking to the future. But if you are at the
highest level, why would you want to settle for
less than the best you can do?
Joe Grohens
Urbana, Illinois
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:00:53 -0700
From: Svetlana Didorenko <svetlanadi@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Invitation to the dance
Joe,
so are you saying that you are dancing with everybody to prove to yourself
that you can do well with anyone? To test your lead? To improve and
challenge yourself? Any karma points involved?
What about dancing for the sake of dancing? What's wrong with making the
dance the end in itself?
Svetlana.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 9:30 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Invitation to the dance
What was said:
milongueros. I read that they "may not dance an entire tanda"..."all
eyes are on these men who dance very little but very well".
I am sorry but I do not feel an admiration toward such milongueros.
It appears there may be some insecurity in a leader who only dances
with very skilled followers. Any experienced leader can dance
skillfully and very well if he is only dancing with experienced
followers.
To me it seems the true test of a skilled leader is to be able to make
every woman look good no matter what her skill level is.
What keeps me dancing tango is the challenge. The challenge that each
partner and every tango presents. My self imposed challenge is to
continue to grow and prosper in my dance.
I will continue to dance every tango I am able even those I do not care
much for and with every lady who will say yes no matter what her
experience level. For where is the challenge and the test in only
dancing to favorite music with skilled followers. And if a lady turns
me down because I dance on occasion with beginners it bothers me not
for there are others who will accept. One of my pleasures to dancing
tango is finding out if my lead is clear enough for all partners to
accurately read.
But I will agree that dancing with skilled followers is most
pleasurable for the dance then ascends to higher levels of ecstasy.
Leonardo K.
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:02:11 -0700
From: Svetlana Didorenko <svetlanadi@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Invitation to the dance
Apologies, Joe.
The comment was meant for Leonardo.
Svetlana
> Joe,
> so are you saying that you are dancing with everybody to prove to yourself
> that you can do well with anyone? To test your lead? To improve and
> challenge yourself? Any karma points involved?
> What about dancing for the sake of dancing? What's wrong with making the
> dance the end in itself?
> Svetlana.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Leonardo Kunkayo" <leonardok@MAC.COM>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 9:30 AM
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Invitation to the dance
>
>
> What was said:
>
> milongueros. I read that they "may not dance an entire tanda"..."all
> eyes are on these men who dance very little but very well".
>
> I am sorry but I do not feel an admiration toward such milongueros.
>
> It appears there may be some insecurity in a leader who only dances
> with very skilled followers. Any experienced leader can dance
> skillfully and very well if he is only dancing with experienced
> followers.
>
> To me it seems the true test of a skilled leader is to be able to make
> every woman look good no matter what her skill level is.
>
> What keeps me dancing tango is the challenge. The challenge that each
> partner and every tango presents. My self imposed challenge is to
> continue to grow and prosper in my dance.
>
> I will continue to dance every tango I am able even those I do not care
> much for and with every lady who will say yes no matter what her
> experience level. For where is the challenge and the test in only
> dancing to favorite music with skilled followers. And if a lady turns
> me down because I dance on occasion with beginners it bothers me not
> for there are others who will accept. One of my pleasures to dancing
> tango is finding out if my lead is clear enough for all partners to
> accurately read.
>
> But I will agree that dancing with skilled followers is most
> pleasurable for the dance then ascends to higher levels of ecstasy.
>
> Leonardo K.
>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:32:46 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Invitation to the dance
I just imagine those evil molongueros, sitting in the corner and discussing
everybody:
"She is dancing with bad dancers! We are not going to dance with her: she is
not able to recognize our exceptional skill!! Let us punish her, punish!!!"
:) :)) :)))
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:18:15 -0500
From: Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Invitation to the dance
> What about dancing for the sake of dancing? What's wrong with making
> the
> dance the end in itself?
> Svetlana.
>
There is nothing wrong with the dance being the end in itself. It may
be your MO. On a number of occasions it is also for me. But that is not
all it is to me every dance. I do not feel the need to protect my rep
by only dancing with deserving and experienced ladies.
milongueros. I read that they "may not dance an entire tanda"..."all
eyes are on these men who dance very little but very well".
This was only a small portion of a very informative email about
invitations to dance. It appeared to me in the writing of such
milongueros that women should long for the chance to dance with such a
leader and then feel eternal gratitude afterward if only granted a
portion of a tanda.
In retrospect I think that I made a mistake of even addressing this
because it apparently applies to only a very very small portion of men.
Leonardo K.
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 14:30:27 -0700
From: campanero@SHINYFEET.COM
Subject: Re: Invitation to the dance
The "code" of the milongas in BsAs is what it is. It might not be fair,
just or politically correct, but it works in those milongas. There is no
point in bemoaning those facts or in holding it's participants in
contempt. There is nothing wrong with choosing one's dance partner using
whatever criteria we want....
The old milongueros are probably just exercising their right to only dance
whit whom they choose. Frankly if those guys are old, they really don't
have time to waste dancing with poor dancers. Who should criticize them
for wantinmg to enjoy whatever time they are alloted on this earth?
For me the tango is not about challenges or tests of leadership ability.
Who cares what people think about whether I make any woman "look good".
After all, isn't tango all about "inside"? Don't we dance for ourselves
and our partners? Who cares about the onlookers anyway?
I really enjoy dancing tango with certain women. I also enjoy dancing to
certain songs by certain orquestras. I also do not like dancing with some
women and detest some of the music played. Why should I waste what little
opportunity there is of dancing with the best partners to the best music?
Tango is not about charity dances or political correctness. It's not my
job or obligation to dance with anybody that I don't want to. I really
have issue with those women who think that they are entitled to dance with
me (or whomever) just because we happen to be at the same milonga. If I'm
sitting around or watching the floor instead of dancing with anyone, it
might be that I'm tired, taking a break or waiting for a better tanda. Oh
yeah, I might be waiting to dance with someone who I really want to dance
with....
Oh yeah, I do watch to see who can dance and who cannot dance. Of course,
this watching does not always tell the story. Some one who might look
great on the floor might not be great in my arms. Likewise, some who do
not particularly look "great" might be very pleasant dance partners for
me. In BAires, if you want to dance at the milongas, you'd best make
damned sure you don't look bad on the dance floor or it will be the kiss
of death! Unless you are already known as a good dancer, if you take the
floor with a sack of potatoes in your arms, you'll look awful and the
women will ignore you pointedly. Same goes for women. This is why it's
customary to dance within your level and don't take chances on the floor.
Of course, in your town, with your friends, you are a known quantity and
you may dance with anyone without risking ostracism.
Still, to me the bottom line is that I dance for pleasure and not for
obligation or to prove I can lead anybody :P
> There is nothing wrong with the dance being the end in itself. It may
> be your MO. On a number of occasions it is also for me. But that is not
> all it is to me every dance. I do not feel the need to protect my rep
> by only dancing with deserving and experienced ladies.
>
> milongueros. I read that they "may not dance an entire tanda"..."all
> eyes are on these men who dance very little but very well".
>
> This was only a small portion of a very informative email about
> invitations to dance. It appeared to me in the writing of such
> milongueros that women should long for the chance to dance with such a
> leader and then feel eternal gratitude afterward if only granted a
> portion of a tanda.
>
> In retrospect I think that I made a mistake of even addressing this
> because it apparently applies to only a very very small portion of men.
>
> Leonardo K.
>
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