3278 Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:44:04 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
I am holding a seminar on floorcraft this Sunday. How do we get the people
who need it most to attend?
It was suggested to me that I send an anonymous email to any offender that
local people might request, reminding them they need to attend. I am not a
fan of anonymous emails. It has also been suggested that a person who has
been bumped stop the dance and confront the offender immediately, perhaps
having a discussion off of the floor. Are there any suggestions on how to
carefully prod someone to realize that they need to be conscious of their
floorcraft?
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:06:00 -0500
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Good luck! That's one aspect of tango the instructors seem to forget teaching!
I remember always complaining about the lack of floor craft when dancing in the SF Bay Area tango community... until I went to Buenos Aires late last year. I discovered the floor craft wasn't any better down there either... so I've stopped complaining.
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 3/4/2005 11:44:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET> writes:
>I am holding a seminar on floorcraft this Sunday. How do we get the people
>who need it most to attend?
>
>It was suggested to me that I send an anonymous email to any offender that
>local people might request, reminding them they need to attend. I am not a
>fan of anonymous emails. It has also been suggested that a person who has
>been bumped stop the dance and confront the offender immediately, perhaps
>having a discussion off of the floor. Are there any suggestions on how to
>carefully prod someone to realize that they need to be conscious of their
>floorcraft?
>
>
>Lois Donnay
>Minneapolis, MN
>
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:13:01 -0500
From: Ed Doyle <doyleed@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Hi Lois,
I sure wish I lived in your area, I would definitely attend, even though I have
never been to a milonga, never bumped anyone (yet), and am still an absolute
beginner. I have several years of ballroom dancing experience (this may
actually be holding me back from learning Argentine Tango more rapidly). I
have now had quite a number of group AT lessons. Pretty much all my instructors
seem to 'teach' me figures that basically happen in one place and yet they 'tell'
me to respect the line of dance. I strongly want to respect the LOD and other dancers,
but with the tools I have, I feel like if I went to a milonga, I would be blocking everyone.
For example, I have been taught to open with a back step (trouble already, I'm going the
wrong way), then perhaps lead two back ochos (now I am moving sideways, and not
down LOD), then perhaps lead a walk to the cross (good - I moved two steps down LOD),
then lead perhaps two forward ochos (again, I am moving sideways to LOD) and then
perhaps lead a resolucion (tango close) (I move one more step in LOD). I have learned
a couple other patterns like a sandwich step that I could substitute for one of the ochos above,
but again, I would not be moving down LOD. Basically, I am afraid to go to a milonga because
with the tools I currently have, I think I would just be in the way. I really really like tango and
think the individual moves are so beautiful and I have at least been told that I lead some of them
well, but I fear I just don't have the big picture yet. If there are any notes or material from your
seminar that you feel you could email me, perhaps I could study it and learn. Maybe I am just being
overly analytical about all this. My closest experience to this was at a ballroom some years ago
with a crowd doing American tango. There was one couple there who did Argentine tango. Both
the man and lady were physically quite large and they planted themselves in the LOD and more or
less stood still, head down, lady with eyes closed, man often with back to LOD oblivious to all
the rest of us. They were like a obstical to navigate around each time we circled the floor. I
definitely do not want to ever be like them. Well, thanks for any comments or suggestions you
or anyone on the list would like to make.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Sent: Mar 4, 2005 11:44 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
I am holding a seminar on floorcraft this Sunday. How do we get the people
who need it most to attend?
It was suggested to me that I send an anonymous email to any offender that
local people might request, reminding them they need to attend. I am not a
fan of anonymous emails. It has also been suggested that a person who has
been bumped stop the dance and confront the offender immediately, perhaps
having a discussion off of the floor. Are there any suggestions on how to
carefully prod someone to realize that they need to be conscious of their
floorcraft?
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:45:35 -0500
From: John Gleeson <johngleeson1@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Ed,
With several years of Ballroom dancing under your belt, my guess is that you already understand floorcraft.
However, it sounds like you should be looking for new teachers for the AT!
John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
> Hi Lois,
>
> I sure wish I lived in your area, I would definitely attend, even though I have
> never been to a milonga, never bumped anyone (yet), and am still an absolute
> beginner. I have several years of ballroom dancing experience (this may
> actually be holding me back from learning Argentine Tango more rapidly). I
> have now had quite a number of group AT lessons. Pretty much all my instructors
> seem to 'teach' me figures that basically happen in one place and yet they 'tell'
> me to respect the line of dance. I strongly want to respect the LOD and other dancers,
> but with the tools I have, I feel like if I went to a milonga, I would be blocking everyone.
> For example, I have been taught to open with a back step (trouble already, I'm going the
> wrong way), then perhaps lead two back ochos (now I am moving sideways, and not
> down LOD), then perhaps lead a walk to the cross (good - I moved two steps down LOD),
> then lead perhaps two forward ochos (again, I am moving sideways to LOD) and then
> perhaps lead a resolucion (tango close) (I move one more step in LOD). I have learned
> a couple other patterns like a sandwich step that I could substitute for one of the ochos above,
> but again, I would not be moving down LOD. Basically, I am afraid to go to a milonga because
> with the tools I currently have, I think I would just be in the way. I really really like tango and
> think the individual moves are so beautiful and I have at least been told that I lead some of them
> well, but I fear I just don't have the big picture yet. If there are any notes or material from your
> seminar that you feel you could email me, perhaps I could study it and learn. Maybe I am just being
> overly analytical about all this. My closest experience to this was at a ballroom some years ago
> with a crowd doing American tango. There was one couple there who did Argentine tango. Both
> the man and lady were physically quite large and they planted themselves in the LOD and more or
> less stood still, head down, lady with eyes closed, man often with back to LOD oblivious to all
> the rest of us. They were like a obstical to navigate around each time we circled the floor. I
> definitely do not want to ever be like them. Well, thanks for any comments or suggestions you
> or anyone on the list would like to make.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
> Sent: Mar 4, 2005 11:44 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
>
> I am holding a seminar on floorcraft this Sunday. How do we get the people
> who need it most to attend?
>
> It was suggested to me that I send an anonymous email to any offender that
> local people might request, reminding them they need to attend. I am not a
> fan of anonymous emails. It has also been suggested that a person who has
> been bumped stop the dance and confront the offender immediately, perhaps
> having a discussion off of the floor. Are there any suggestions on how to
> carefully prod someone to realize that they need to be conscious of their
> floorcraft?
>
>
> Lois Donnay
> Minneapolis, MN
>
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:11:04 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
I would be especially interested in hearing from Argentine milongueros about
this. It's clear that in BsAs the floorcraft is generally very good, with
some exceptions, of course, but especially in the "older," more traditional
venues, it is very respectuful and disciplined. How did this develop
historically? It's ingrained in the culture now, but how were transgressions
handled in the earlier years?
Also I'd appreciate some feedback on what I hope is a good list of
floorcraft protocols on my website at
www.TangoMoments.com
click to "Argentine Tango," then to "Expectations and Protocols"
J in Portland
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:46:40 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Lois,
I don't see the need to teach "floorcraft". The tango dance "is" the
floorcraft. If people cannot dance on the floor with others at the milongas
it is because they don't yet know how to dance tango..... Someone wrote
about having all kinds of problems dancing the LOD because all he knows is
how to do back ochos in place, front ochos in place, a back salida to the
cross and a resolution.....
Well, no wonder he cannot dance, he's not been taught yet the most useful
steps of tango which are the turns..... Anyone who's been taught how to turn
and do simple changes of direction can easily control the floor.....
Floorcraft is the art of dancing tango, it is not a separate skill to be
taught or practiced.
Good luck with your efforts to teach tango,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Reply-To: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:00:34 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Lois and Manuel:
Exactly! Si Senor. Lois, I agree with Manuel.
Floorcraft is just a normal part of learning to dance
tango. You learn it. You do not teach it to others.
In my opinion "floorcraft" and "close embrace" which
seem to go together somehow, are both not "stand
alone" courses in learning how to dance tango. They
both should both be included in any normal class that
teaches Argentine tango, along with salon style etc.
The same applies to American style tango, which is
just another offshoot of Argentine tango that does
noit stand alone either. These are are just "parts"
of tango, because they are all choreographed and
therefore very limited in possibilities for the
dancers.
To me, surprise is the thing in tango that makes it
interesting. Tango does not need Tango Police and
choreography. Tango needs better tango dancers who
can handle any impromptu situation that comes up and
deal with it. Good tango dancers are good defensive
drivers. Anything that seeks to choreograph or police
tango should be avoided. It takes the soul out of the
dance. My opinion.
Why I think this "floorcraft" subject comes up all the
time...
I find myself, personally, that it seems to be close
embrace people who are the ones who are usually
complaining about the open embrace people taking up
too much space on the dance floor. Sometimes its gets
so bad that they actually bump into open embrace
people on purpose, to prove their point. I have had
this happen to me many times, and I get tired of it.
My floor craft is not great, but it is not that bad
either.
Also, if one dances around the world and goes to the
milongas in most of the large cities, one will find
that floorcraft is always a problem, no matter what
one does, so one had better learn how to survive, or
else. The task is to become a better impromptu
dancer. That is the only real solution.
If one is having trouble with the floorcraft of
others, then I would suggest NOT TEACHING OTHERS.
Instead, I would suggest taking MORE LESSONS to
improve your flexibility. Take defensive driving.
Forget choreography. Tango is a lead-follow dance. It
is unpredictable. It is definitely not a ballet. My
opinion.
Derik
Looking for flexibility...
--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Dear Lois,
>
> I don't see the need to teach "floorcraft". The
> tango dance "is" the
> floorcraft. If people cannot dance on the floor with
> others at the milongas
> it is because they don't yet know how to dance
> tango..... Someone wrote
> about having all kinds of problems dancing the LOD
> because all he knows is
> how to do back ochos in place, front ochos in place,
> a back salida to the
> cross and a resolution.....
> Well, no wonder he cannot dance, he's not been
> taught yet the most useful
> steps of tango which are the turns..... Anyone who's
> been taught how to turn
> and do simple changes of direction can easily
> control the floor.....
> Floorcraft is the art of dancing tango, it is not a
> separate skill to be
> taught or practiced.
>
> Good luck with your efforts to teach tango,
>
> Manuel
>
>
>
> visit our webpage
> www.tango-rio.com
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
> Reply-To: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft
> seminars
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:44:04 -0600
>
> I am holding a seminar on floorcraft this Sunday.
> How do we get the people
> who need it most to attend?
>
> It was suggested to me that I send an anonymous
> email to any offender that
> local people might request, reminding them they need
> to attend. I am not a
> fan of anonymous emails. It has also been suggested
> that a person who has
> been bumped stop the dance and confront the offender
> immediately, perhaps
> having a discussion off of the floor. Are there any
> suggestions on how to
> carefully prod someone to realize that they need to
> be conscious of their
> floorcraft?
>
>
> Lois Donnay
> Minneapolis, MN
>
>
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:15:29 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Hi Derik
Thanks for your endorsement. I have been a little bit bothered by this
emphasis in "floorcraft" for a long time. First, it's obvious that dancing
in crowded milongas is terribly difficult for the inexperienced dancer.
Also, it's true that this crowding, and difficulties of navigation are not
unique to any particular part of the world. I still remember my first
experience with a milonga in Bs As... I think it was at La Viruta, I was
just blown away by number of dancers in the floor and how difficult it was
to dance in those conditions. I had been taught the basic salida, walk to
the cross, forward and back ochos in place, medialunas and other steps that
basically stop every few seconds and use up space while performing movements
in place. This is the basic repertory of most beginner dancers. The
so-called close embrace beginners usually have a simpler routine that does
not include any stops or pauses once they begin their shuffling.
I don't think the close embrace dancers or the "open" embrace dancers have a
monopoly on lousy floor craft. Both styles can be horribly executed for
navigational purposes. The reason is that no style of tango will make a good
dancer right away. The close embrace shufflers will inexorably advance and
run over the hapless dancer in front of them unless they are good dancers.
The open embrace beginners are only slightly better since they are bound to
stop their forward motion every few steps. Both types of dancers are pretty
much road blocks in the milonga for each other.
The experienced dancer can usually navigate without difficulty regardless of
the occasional roadblocks. It's been many years for me since that first Bs
As milonga experience. I've long since discovered how to dance tango and I
rarely have problems of navigation even in the most crowded milongas. It
really does not matter what style one dances if one knows how to make turns
in place and while moving forward as well as knowing how and when to change
directions, pause the forward movement, resume it, etc. Unfortunately these
skills are not something "extra" that can be taught in a special class or
workshop. Our students are taught how to dance in way that allows them the
freedom to use what space is available to them. Naturally, the less
experienced ones have a great deal more difficulty in achieving this.
However, it's all achievable if they continue to apply themselves to learn
and practice the skills we teach them. Finally but most importantly, the
navigation is inextricably tied or related to the musicality or to the
dancers ability to dance to the music. To me, the most important skill a
dancer can have, is the ability to do simple yet precise movements to the
beat of the music.
Great navigation to all,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
>Dear Lois and Manuel:
>Exactly! Si Senor. Lois, I agree with Manuel.
>Floorcraft is just a normal part of learning to dance
>tango. You learn it. You do not teach it to others.
>In my opinion "floorcraft" and "close embrace" which
>seem to go together somehow, are both not "stand
>alone" courses in learning how to dance tango. They
>both should both be included in any normal class that
>teaches Argentine tango, along with salon style etc.
>The same applies to American style tango, which is
>just another offshoot of Argentine tango that does
>noit stand alone either. These are are just "parts"
>of tango, because they are all choreographed and
>therefore very limited in possibilities for the
>dancers.
>To me, surprise is the thing in tango that makes it
>interesting. Tango does not need Tango Police and
>choreography. Tango needs better tango dancers who
>can handle any impromptu situation that comes up and
>deal with it. Good tango dancers are good defensive
>drivers. Anything that seeks to choreograph or police
>tango should be avoided. It takes the soul out of the
>dance. My opinion.
>Why I think this "floorcraft" subject comes up all the
>time...
>I find myself, personally, that it seems to be close
>embrace people who are the ones who are usually
>complaining about the open embrace people taking up
>too much space on the dance floor. Sometimes its gets
>so bad that they actually bump into open embrace
>people on purpose, to prove their point. I have had
>this happen to me many times, and I get tired of it.
>My floor craft is not great, but it is not that bad
>either.
>Also, if one dances around the world and goes to the
>milongas in most of the large cities, one will find
>that floorcraft is always a problem, no matter what
>one does, so one had better learn how to survive, or
>else. The task is to become a better impromptu
>dancer. That is the only real solution.
>If one is having trouble with the floorcraft of
>others, then I would suggest NOT TEACHING OTHERS.
>Instead, I would suggest taking MORE LESSONS to
>improve your flexibility. Take defensive driving.
>Forget choreography. Tango is a lead-follow dance. It
>is unpredictable. It is definitely not a ballet. My
>opinion.
>Derik
>Looking for flexibility...
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:43:39 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Those are good points Derik. The only thing that I would express differently
is regarding the unpredictability of steps. I think that maybe what you are
trying to express is the need for the ability to respond to unpredictability
in other people's movements.
With all due respect for your opinion, I would rather advise to leaders to
be absolutely clear in their leads so their partners do not feel that they
have to cope with total unpredictability. I mean that while the dance is
spontaneous and extemporaneous, it is actually quite predictable as the
music dictates the rhythm and each steps has a logical or predictable number
of possible next moves, all of which can be organically and seamlessly done
from the previous position.
Heightened tango skills to all,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
>Dear Manuel:
>
>I do agree with everything you are saying. The open
>embrace beginners are trying to do the basic 8 and
>there is no room for it and the close embrace
>beginners can only move forward or stop. Both
>beginning dancers are a navigational problem, as is
>the guy who is trying to show someone a step to get
>them on the dance floor at all. (I am guilty of this
>one, and I try to remember not to do it on the main
>dance floor, but I do forget.)
>
>I tell my friends who just trying to do something
>...anything to get on the dance floor, to forget the
>basic 8 at a milonga and forget close embrace...just
>face each other in any embrace they want and walk
>forward or to the side, bringing feet together for
>balance each time first. Also I tell the leaders to
>put in some accelerations and decelerations to be more
>things more unpredictable. This way there is little to
>do (as with close embrace) and fewer problems with
>navigation. The dancers think that they are dancing
>tango, and they are happy in a limited way.
>
>I always tell people to try to learn both open embrace
>and close embrace, because they are both same thing.
>One should be able to go from one to the other
>instantly, and one should not be stuck in one or the
>other. To me flexibility is the key. We should all
>be ready for anything that comes our way. There is no
>need to limit the dance unless you are a beginner.
>Then maybe there is a reason. My opinion.
>
>
>Derik
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:47:41 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Go ahead on the floorcraft seminar! This is a good topic accumulate a number
of good techniques. I would think it would be difficult to collect people
for the seminars since the beginners hardly can do anything and those
dancers fluent in "turns and changes of directions" wouldn't ever think it
is for them.
As far as I think floorcraft means how to dance well in a confined place,
even how to provide more space for others.
What could be practiced? Well, for example, this things come to my mind:
-- How to follow the line of dance:
1. Learning to dance no more than 1 foot from the border of the dance
floor; - I find it ultimately challenging and interesting;
1.2 Working out corners - not cutting them!;
2. dancing on no more than 2 feet floor stripe; ( Do you know that: dancing
on a square? )
-- Special skills:
3. Dancing with forward or side steps only;
4. Dancing with very small steps;
5. Ability to stop sharply and make cortes on every step and cortados on
every ocho - I believe it is impossible without a strong connection and a
lot of training;
6. Ability for a woman to indicate danger with her left hand pressing the
man's back,
-- Important technique:
7. Doing all sacadas and boleos keeping the foot on the floor. She should do
it by default. The leader should lead the "high" boleo if there is a safe
space behind, not otherwise. Just keeping the foot on the floor would cure
70% of bad accidents!
So many things, good enough for 20 workshops!
May be you can add some more to this list?
Well it happens to me too. And kicking and pushing somebody as they do it to
me. But we can minimize the impact. I would never believe that anyone would
do it on purpose risking their own well being. It happens to me if I am
curried away, or tried to avoid other obstacles. Sorry.
Igor Polk from San Francisco
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:21:46 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Manuel;
I think that a good tango dancer can dance with a
total stranger and complete beginner and adapt to
virtually anything that comes up. It is sometimes not
easy, but it can be done. You are right, the music
sets the "tone" and the "pace", but what happens when
it too is suddenly unpredictable and goes into a fast
milonga, changing pace, or ends and then starts up
again. One has to be ready for anything even with the
music.
I think that you are right, the leader has to have a
very clear response to every situation, so his partner
knows what can be done next. Communication between
partners has to be definite, but it can be
unpredictable sometimes as well. What if your partner
does something that you have never seen before. You
had better learn it fast, and maybe improve on it.
All of these unpredictable things are the challenge of
tango. As they say in the software business, "That is
not a mistake, that is a feature." I have seen
beginners make mistakes that become great new tango
steps by accident, and I have seen people being bumped
or pushed off balance and creating new responses or
steps which become a great new steps as well. To me,
life is unpredictable, our response should be our best
effort. It should not be making rules for everyone
else in the room. We need some rules to survive, but
just the bare minimum will do. For me good tango is
like watching electricity flow between partners. You
do not know what is going to happen next exactly and
neither do they. It is very exciting and a little
dangerous, but it is a very beautiful thing. My
opinion.
Derik
--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Those are good points Derik. The only thing that I
> would express differently
> is regarding the unpredictability of steps. I think
> that maybe what you are
> trying to express is the need for the ability to
> respond to unpredictability
> in other people's movements.
> With all due respect for your opinion, I would
> rather advise to leaders to
> be absolutely clear in their leads so their partners
> do not feel that they
> have to cope with total unpredictability. I mean
> that while the dance is
> spontaneous and extemporaneous, it is actually quite
> predictable as the
> music dictates the rhythm and each steps has a
> logical or predictable number
> of possible next moves, all of which can be
> organically and seamlessly done
> from the previous position.
>
> Heightened tango skills to all,
>
> Manuel
>
> visit our webpage
> www.tango-rio.com
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:37:19 -0800
From: "Linda~" <tangaux02@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Hi everyone,
Manuel says that floorcraft and musicality are related, but
that floorcraft cant be taught. Having just taken a set of wonderful musicality classes, I am baffled. If musicality and floorcraft are related, how can one be taught and not the other?
I believe floorcraft should ideally be taught at the outset, as
an integrated part of the curriculum. We North Americans havent grown up around the milongas in Buenos Aires. We cant do mental osmosis and miraculously absorb the rules of the pista. We have to learn these things, through classes as well as experience. Some might scoff at the idea of teaching these separately because in a way, such classes are retroactive measures. But I think this is still better than nothing at all.
As for musicality, very few of us hear tango music and automatically know what to do with it. This is why I think musicality classes
can be helpful. The point is not to micro-manage how youre supposed to interpret the music. Good teachers can give you guidelines toward understanding how tango music is constructed,
and how different orchestras inspire different qualities. But teachers can only do so much. Getting a good understanding of the music takes time, of course. Lots of time, as with anything else in tango.
I have not been dancing long, but the teachers Ive met who emphasized good navigation have been, by and large, close-embrace dancers. But I wont make a blanket statement that milonguero-
style teachers have cornered the market on teaching floorcraft. Floorcraft isnt the exclusive domain of one style. And its
not a code word for muzzling creativity. Good floorcraft is
about making the most creative use of what space is available
at the moment, whether its the size of a baldosa or abundant.
Kudos, Manuel, for stressing this in your classes.
Good floorcraft is also about respecting others on the floor. Im sorry Derik, but the idea of close-embrace dancers going out of their way to bump open-embrace dancers on the floor seems too outlandish to be believed. But maybe Im naive.
In the end, it shouldnt matter what embrace my partner chooses
to use, as long as he makes me feel safe and Im having fun. But
if, while dancing with me, he careens past other couples and causes near-collisions (even if no one gets hurt), you can be sure that tanda is over fast.
Thanks, Igor, for your concrete points! I also wonder if, whenever visiting teachers demonstrate a new step, we can ask if it can be adapted to a social setting.
Un abrazo fuerte,
Linda
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:21:12 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Linda~ wrote ...
Good floorcraft is also about respecting others on the floor. I'm sorry
Derik, but the idea of close-embrace dancers going out of their way to bump
open-embrace dancers on the floor seems too outlandish to be believed. But
maybe I'm naive.
I know of one particularly militant dancer who once told me proudly about
having intentionally elbowed a dancer who was flailing with especially poor
attention to other dancers. So I know it happens.
I also have heard a similar story about what can happen in some milongas in
BsAs. The situation was that the USA dancer was relatively new and not
skilled in or understanding of floorcraft expectations, and obviously was
violating protocols. What happened was that several Argentine leaders
corralled him, basically boxing him in between them on the dancefloor so
that he couldn't do anything but very small and respectful steps.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:26:46 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
If Manuel believes that floorcraft can't be taught, maybe that is his
personal experience. I have a different experience, so perhaps his
mistake is merely to generalize from his personal experience.
My personal experience is that it is very easy to teach floorcraft.
Yes, it is somewhat harder for the student to do complicated sequences
with good floorcraft, but it is certainly within reach of MOST
beginners to walk simply around the room with a beautiful woman in
their arms without bumping into anyone.
I find that bad floorcraft is more common among intermediates, or
fast-moving dancers practicing moves from their latest workshop.
As I have frequently commented "Every guy arrives at tango capable of
navigating a crowded cocktail party without spilling a drop. The first
tango lesson commonly REMOVES that ability by teaching a memorized
sequence that CAUSES collisions if there is anyone else on the dance
floor."
Teaching simple walking movements and improvisation on shorter elements
builds on skills most newcomers already have. If the teacher carefully
chooses these short elements, the newcomer also learns fundamental
"tango" movements as well as such important skills as improvisation,
musicality, embrace, balance, posture, etc.
The question about floorcraft came initially from Ed Doyle who came to
tango with (presumably) reasonable navigational ability as a ballroom
dancer. He complained that the vocabulary presented to him by his
teacher caused floorcraft/navigational problems when he tried to apply
it to a social dance floor.
Manuel's solution was to suggest learning the turn. While the turn is a
useful and interesting tango element, it doesn't solve the navigational
problem that Ed asked about. I would say that, adding a new, more
complex sequence like the turn is the opposite of solving Ed's problem.
Ed's teacher didn't present him with the extremely simple awareness
that tango is based on walking your partner around the room, not some
"special sequence" like the 8CB or the turn.
On Mar 5, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Linda~ wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
>
> Manuel says that floorcraft and musicality are related, but that
> floorcraft cant be taught. Having just taken a set of wonderful
> musicality classes, I am baffled. If musicality and floorcraft are
> related, how can one be taught and not the other?
> ...
>
> As for musicality, very few of us hear tango music and automatically
> know what to do with it. This is why I think musicality classes can
> be helpful. The point is not to micro-manage how youre supposed to
> interpret the music. Good teachers can give you guidelines toward
> understanding how tango music is constructed, and how different
> orchestras inspire different qualities. But teachers can only do so
> much. Getting a good understanding of the music takes time, of
> course. Lots of time, as with anything else in tango.
> ...
>
> Good floorcraft is also about respecting others on the floor. Im
> sorry Derik, but the idea of close-embrace dancers going out of their
> way to bump open-embrace dancers on the floor seems too outlandish to
> be believed. But maybe Im naive.
>
>
>
> In the end, it shouldnt matter what embrace my partner chooses
>
> to use, as long as he makes me feel safe and Im having fun. But
>
> if, while dancing with me, he careens past other couples and causes
> near-collisions (even if no one gets hurt), you can be sure that tanda
> is over fast.
>
> ...
> Linda
>
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:27:04 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
>
> I know of one particularly militant dancer who once told me proudly about
> having intentionally elbowed a dancer who was flailing with especially
poor
> attention to other dancers. So I know it happens.
>
Last night we had a double celebration at Luna de Tango in Tokyo: David and
Vanessa leaving for the CITA in BA, and El Chino and Miho arriving to teach
their classes while half of our instructors are in BA. So, there were two
fantastic demos, the best we have ever seen so far, I believe.
But: the place was so jam packed will well wishers, old friends and so on,
that one could hardly dance. With most men, dancing was positively scary, as
I constantly had to watch out, front, side and back, helping them avoid
crashes, and still bumping into people occasionally. At least no high boleos
!
The scariest moment, however, was when I was dancing with a good seasoned
dancer, who, however, would not slow down in either force nor speed, in
spite of the crowd. Suddenly, an older, grey haired man yelled at him, went
after him, raised his fist, and threatened to punch him out ! We sort of
escaped along the ronda, but, whoaa !! Who would have expected that from a
Japanese?
The only man who held me safe and secure was a young man who had spent 3
months in BA, dancing in conditions like this all the time. He was
constantly dancing in turns, thus, slowly and softly spinning around the
floor, always watching out, where one of us could insert a foot at the next
step inside the crowd.
Astrid
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:09:24 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Tom:
I think what is sorely needed in this forum is remedial reading classes more
that anything else ;-) ..... If a more complete and careful reading of my
posting is done, it apparent that I never said that floor craft was not
teachable or necessary.
I think that floor craft is definitely teachable and must be taught. My
position on this is that floor craft is an integral part of tango and needs
not be taught as a separate skill. We teach our students to to dance on the
floor, with other dancers and to the music. IMHO, that is floor craft and
that is how it should be taught. It should be an integral part of the tango
dance, not some subset of skills taught at some other "special" workshop.
Excellent floor craft to all,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
>Reply-To: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
>Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:26:46 -0700
>
>If Manuel believes that floorcraft can't be taught, maybe that is his
>personal experience. I have a different experience, so perhaps his mistake
>is merely to generalize from his personal experience.
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:57:27 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Floorcraft can absolutely be taught in a workshop
format. I've seen it done. Last year, Robert Hauk
taught an incredible workshop on floorcraft in
Cincinatti.
I've just returned from my first Valentango Festival
in Portland, where I had a great time and no problems
at some somewhat crowded milongas. But for Robert's
workshop, I would have been one of the helpless
shufflers pushed to the fringes at those milongas. At
least 90% of my navigation skills are rooted in that
one workshop.
To promote a "floorcraft" workshop to pattern
steppers, call it an "improvization" workshop. The
skills to be taught are are exactly the same. If this
doesn't make sense to you, than you may not be ready
to teach "floorcraft". More likely, you are part of
the problem.
Sean
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:17:26 +0100
From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Hello, to you all
I am a bit puzzeled over the debate concerning floorcraft seminar.
First, the real problem is to get the people who need some help to the seminars, because they themselves do not think that they need them. And =
they definetely are not interested in paying for them.
I think that the best way is for the milonga organizers to politely, tell the people whos dansing is effecting other people in a negative =
manner and thus redusing the general quality of the milonga, that they should improve their manners. It is the same if they are great danser =
or poor dansers, if they do not care enough of the other dansers. If the problems is related to their attitude, a seminar will not help. If =
the problem is that they are not yet able to understand the other dansers movements, a seminar can be of great help.
Obviously, not all dansers who danse in large figures, create this problem. If the leader truly observes all the other couples movements, =
he will never violate other peoples spaces, and everybody will be happy.
One way to describe the problem for others, is that if there is a couple on the floor that moves in every direction I have to keep my attention =
on them ALL the time. This reduces the attention I can give to my dance partner. If this other couple is on the other side of the dance hall, =
where I prefer to keep them, the effect is small, lets say 2% of my attention. But if they are in front of me, I have to give them perhaps =
30% of my attention, which in reality means that my dansing experience is more of a turf-fight than than a pleasurable experience.
Second, some people have rejected the possiblity to teach floorcraft, because it is an integral part of tango. I disagree. There are many =
ways to learn. You can either spend a life time learning tacit knowledge from the tango-community by simply spending time at the =
milongas, or you can take a class, learn the principles and find out what kind of practice is helpfull.
I am a political scientist with many years of teaching experiences at the university. Obviously, you do not become a political scientes by =
just taking classes, but just as obviously, we do not teach classes called 'everything you ever need know about political science'. For =
teaching purposes it is NECESSARY to pick one topic that is small enough to be presented in a few hours. I think that floorcraft is a great topic =
to teach, but not the only topic. And I do not care if it is thought 5 minutes on every class, or one whole seminar devoted to the topic.
All tango dancers need know floorcraft, and if they have not picked it up in a milonga, perhaps they should be encouraged to take a seminar. =
Perhaps the tango communities should collect money and give these few souls a free floorcraft seminar? Perhaps that would make the bumpers =
understand that others find them annoying?
Happy dansing,
eero
Norway
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 06:37:51 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Eero and Sean, I agree with Manuel. It is the
mans job to avoid other dancers. It is difficult work
at times, but it is part of being a good leader. One
learns to be a better dancer. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
wrote:
> Hello, to you all
>
> I am a bit puzzeled over the debate concerning
floorcraft seminar.
>
> First, the real problem is to get the people who
need some help to the
> seminars, because they themselves do not think that
they need them. And
> they definetely are not interested in paying for
them.
>
> I think that the best way is for the milonga
organizers to politely,
> tell the people whos dansing is effecting other
people in a negative
> manner and thus redusing the general quality of the
milonga, that they
> should improve their manners. It is the same if
they are great danser
> or poor dansers, if they do not care enough of the
other dansers. If
> the problems is related to their attitude, a seminar
will not help. If
> the problem is that they are not yet able to
understand the other
> dansers movements, a seminar can be of great help.
>
> Obviously, not all dansers who danse in large
figures, create this
> problem. If the leader truly observes all the other
couples movements,
> he will never violate other peoples spaces, and
everybody will be happy.
>
>
> One way to describe the problem for others, is that
if there is a couple
> on the floor that moves in every direction I have to
keep my attention
> on them ALL the time. This reduces the attention I
can give to my dance
> partner. If this other couple is on the other side
of the dance hall,
> where I prefer to keep them, the effect is small,
lets say 2% of my
> attention. But if they are in front of me, I have
to give them perhaps
> 30% of my attention, which in reality means that my
dansing experience
> is more of a turf-fight than than a pleasurable
experience.
>
> Second, some people have rejected the possiblity to
teach floorcraft,
> because it is an integral part of tango. I
disagree. There are many
> ways to learn. You can either spend a life time
learning tacit
> knowledge from the tango-community by simply
spending time at the
> milongas, or you can take a class, learn the
principles and find out
> what kind of practice is helpfull.
> I am a political scientist with many years of
teaching experiences at
> the university. Obviously, you do not become a
political scientes by
> just taking classes, but just as obviously, we do
not teach classes
> called 'everything you ever need know about
political science'. For
> teaching purposes it is NECESSARY to pick one topic
that is small enough
> to be presented in a few hours. I think that
floorcraft is a great topic
> to teach, but not the only topic. And I do not care
if it is thought 5
> minutes on every class, or one whole seminar devoted
to the topic.
>
> All tango dancers need know floorcraft, and if they
have not picked it
> up in a milonga, perhaps they should be encouraged
to take a seminar.
> Perhaps the tango communities should collect money
and give these few
> souls a free floorcraft seminar? Perhaps that would
make the bumpers
> understand that others find them annoying?
>
> Happy dansing,
> eero
> Norway
>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:06:25 EST
From: Joanne Pogros <JOANNEPROCHASKA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning the music. Was:Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Ref: Linda wrote:
As for musicality, very few of us hear tango music and automatically know
what to do with it. This is why I think musicality classescan be helpful. The
point is not to micro-manage how youre supposed to interpret the music. Good
teachers can give you guidelines toward understanding how tango music is
constructed,
and how different orchestras inspire different qualities. But teachers can
only do so much. Getting a good understanding of the music takes time, of
course. Lots of time, as with anything else in tango.
Along with musicality classes, I recommend to all our students that they
listen to good DANCEABLE tango music each day. Keep listening to that cd
until you are humming the next song even before it begins. A cd with a mixture
of tango, vals and milonga is the best, so you can learn the difference, even
guessing which style is which, then checking the song list to see if you are
right.
Listening while in my car is the way I learned tango music. A 45 minute
drive each way to the stable ( to ride my horse) and back, 4-5 days per week.
That was ALOT of listening opportunity!
I may not know the name of the song or even the orchestra, but I sure do know
an awful lot of recordings. So the song plays in my head to compliment the
auditory input at a milonga. The music is truly inside of me, and I think it
helps make my dancing a total physical and emotional experience.
I cannot stress enough the importance of this "homework" assignment.
I don't know how many students actually do it, but I hope they do.
How else can the lady "keep the music" if she is not familiar with it???
And one cannot become familiar with the music by listening to it only while
at a class or two a week plus maybe a dance, because you are distracted by
chatting with others and worrying about getting a dance and what to do with your
feet, etc.
Happy music listening to all,
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:25:47 -0800
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Derik:In a two persons conversation,there two of them
asking and answering each other...
I the floor the two of you help each other to avoid
collapsing.By the embrace you are capable to see 180
and your partner the other 180.In the blank part of
your embrace she will help you to avoid step on
somebody else.
Once you invited or initiated a movement ..it is a
interaction of lead and follow from the two of you.
Do not tag yourself as a leader or your partner as a
follower.
Think as the argentinians: man role ,female role,and
interaction.
Regards.
Daniel
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Dear Eero and Sean, I agree with Manuel. It is the
> mans job to avoid other dancers. It is difficult
> work
> at times, but it is part of being a good leader. One
> learns to be a better dancer. Derik
> --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
> wrote:
> > Hello, to you all
> >
> > I am a bit puzzeled over the debate concerning
> floorcraft seminar.
> >
> > First, the real problem is to get the people who
> need some help to the
> > seminars, because they themselves do not think
> that
> they need them. And
> > they definetely are not interested in paying for
> them.
> >
> > I think that the best way is for the milonga
> organizers to politely,
> > tell the people whos dansing is effecting other
> people in a negative
> > manner and thus redusing the general quality of
> the
> milonga, that they
> > should improve their manners. It is the same if
> they are great danser
> > or poor dansers, if they do not care enough of the
> other dansers. If
> > the problems is related to their attitude, a
> seminar
> will not help. If
> > the problem is that they are not yet able to
> understand the other
> > dansers movements, a seminar can be of great help.
> >
> > Obviously, not all dansers who danse in large
> figures, create this
> > problem. If the leader truly observes all the
> other
> couples movements,
> > he will never violate other peoples spaces, and
> everybody will be happy.
> >
> >
> > One way to describe the problem for others, is
> that
> if there is a couple
> > on the floor that moves in every direction I have
> to
> keep my attention
> > on them ALL the time. This reduces the attention I
> can give to my dance
> > partner. If this other couple is on the other
> side
> of the dance hall,
> > where I prefer to keep them, the effect is small,
> lets say 2% of my
> > attention. But if they are in front of me, I have
> to give them perhaps
> > 30% of my attention, which in reality means that
> my
> dansing experience
> > is more of a turf-fight than than a pleasurable
> experience.
> >
> > Second, some people have rejected the possiblity
> to
> teach floorcraft,
> > because it is an integral part of tango. I
> disagree. There are many
> > ways to learn. You can either spend a life time
> learning tacit
> > knowledge from the tango-community by simply
> spending time at the
> > milongas, or you can take a class, learn the
> principles and find out
> > what kind of practice is helpfull.
> > I am a political scientist with many years of
> teaching experiences at
> > the university. Obviously, you do not become a
> political scientes by
> > just taking classes, but just as obviously, we do
> not teach classes
> > called 'everything you ever need know about
> political science'. For
> > teaching purposes it is NECESSARY to pick one
> topic
> that is small enough
> > to be presented in a few hours. I think that
> floorcraft is a great topic
> > to teach, but not the only topic. And I do not
> care
> if it is thought 5
> > minutes on every class, or one whole seminar
> devoted
> to the topic.
> >
> > All tango dancers need know floorcraft, and if
> they
> have not picked it
> > up in a milonga, perhaps they should be encouraged
> to take a seminar.
> > Perhaps the tango communities should collect money
> and give these few
> > souls a free floorcraft seminar? Perhaps that
> would
> make the bumpers
> > understand that others find them annoying?
> >
> > Happy dansing,
> > eero
> > Norway
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:48:53 -0800
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
I think it would be helpful if you practiced:
1) Parallel walking in front of your partner
2) Parallel walking to (your) left of your partner (her right)
3) Cross system walking on both sides of your partner
4) Crosses
5) Occasional rock steps (cunecita)
6) Occasional pauses with weight changes back and forth from the
"home position (woman directly in front of you, feet together)
All these are doable in the LOD. None require a back step. None
have you lunging to the left or the right and endangering other
couples. They supply enough variety so that if you do them with
the music, you will have an interesting, safe dance.
ramiro
--- Ed Doyle <doyleed@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
> Hi Lois,
>
> I sure wish I lived in your area, I would definitely attend,
> even though I have
> never been to a milonga, never bumped anyone (yet), and am
> still an absolute
> beginner. I have several years of ballroom dancing experience
> (this may
> actually be holding me back from learning Argentine Tango more
> rapidly). I
> have now had quite a number of group AT lessons. Pretty much
> all my instructors
> seem to 'teach' me figures that basically happen in one place
> and yet they 'tell'
> me to respect the line of dance. I strongly want to respect
> the LOD and other dancers,
> but with the tools I have, I feel like if I went to a milonga,
> I would be blocking everyone.
> For example, I have been taught to open with a back step
> (trouble already, I'm going the
> wrong way), then perhaps lead two back ochos (now I am moving
> sideways, and not
> down LOD), then perhaps lead a walk to the cross (good - I
> moved two steps down LOD),
> then lead perhaps two forward ochos (again, I am moving
> sideways to LOD) and then
> perhaps lead a resolucion (tango close) (I move one more step
> in LOD). I have learned
> a couple other patterns like a sandwich step that I could
> substitute for one of the ochos above,
> but again, I would not be moving down LOD. Basically, I am
> afraid to go to a milonga because
> with the tools I currently have, I think I would just be in
> the way. I really really like tango and
> think the individual moves are so beautiful and I have at
> least been told that I lead some of them
> well, but I fear I just don't have the big picture yet. If
> there are any notes or material from your
> seminar that you feel you could email me, perhaps I could
> study it and learn. Maybe I am just being
> overly analytical about all this. My closest experience to
> this was at a ballroom some years ago
> with a crowd doing American tango. There was one couple there
> who did Argentine tango. Both
> the man and lady were physically quite large and they planted
> themselves in the LOD and more or
> less stood still, head down, lady with eyes closed, man often
> with back to LOD oblivious to all
> the rest of us. They were like a obstical to navigate around
> each time we circled the floor. I
> definitely do not want to ever be like them. Well, thanks for
> any comments or suggestions you
> or anyone on the list would like to make.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
> Sent: Mar 4, 2005 11:44 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
>
> I am holding a seminar on floorcraft this Sunday. How do we
> get the people
> who need it most to attend?
>
> It was suggested to me that I send an anonymous email to any
> offender that
> local people might request, reminding them they need to
> attend. I am not a
> fan of anonymous emails. It has also been suggested that a
> person who has
> been bumped stop the dance and confront the offender
> immediately, perhaps
> having a discussion off of the floor. Are there any
> suggestions on how to
> carefully prod someone to realize that they need to be
> conscious of their
> floorcraft?
>
>
> Lois Donnay
> Minneapolis, MN
>
ramiro garcia
ramiro9@yahoo.com
---
In their feud [Stalin and Trotsky] both were right. Stalin was right in
maintaining that his regime was the embodiment of socialist principles.
Trotsky was right in asserting that Stalin's regime had made Russia a hell.
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:04:07 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
>From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
>I've just returned from my first Valentango Festival
>in Portland, where I had a great time and no problems
>at some somewhat crowded milongas. But for Robert's
>workshop, I would have been one of the helpless
>shufflers pushed to the fringes at those milongas. At
>least 90% of my navigation skills are rooted in that
>one workshop.
Sean, I'm very happy for you. It's wonderful that Robert was able to finally
teach you to navigate the floor. It's too bad though that it took you so
long to learn these most basic skills. You've been posting to these forums
for a long time. Perhaps your teachers did not do you justice...
>To promote a "floorcraft" workshop to pattern
>steppers, call it an "improvization" workshop. The
>skills to be taught are are exactly the same. If this
>doesn't make sense to you, than you may not be ready
>to teach "floorcraft". More likely, you are part of
>the problem.
It's fine and good to set up classes teach people to navigate the floors. I
wish Lois the best success in achieving her goals with her workshop. I'm all
in favor of teaching people to dance tango. As a matter of fact, that is
exactly what we do in our classes. We teach people to navigate in the dance
floor while moving to the music and dancing tango. They learn to do this
along with the rest of the people
at the same time. We have much success in our classes and our students
become quite proficient at navigating the floor while dancing. Many of them
become quite excellent dancers too. They have no problems with navigation
any more that I do.
Manuel
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:31:59 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Daniel:
Yes, you are absolutely right. The lead goes back and
forth in a conversation, so both parties are
responsible. I do agree with you on this. I take
back what I said about the man being the leader. It
is not always true. Also, the man cannot see
everything that is going on, so he cannot always be
the one to avoid other dancers. The woman works with
the man as a full partner. Good communication between
partners is everything in tango.
What I am trying to say is that one should not try to
change the people in the room by telling them what to
do. We cannot always control our environment.
Instead, on should try to improve ourselves.
Derik
PS- One of the reasons that dancers have trouble with
navigation is that they are doing a set choreography
of pre-planned steps or figures which do not fit
inside the surroundings. Flexibility and creativity
is the thing that should be taught to dancers. You do
that and I appreciate this.
Derik
--- Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Derik:In a two persons conversation,there two of
> them
> asking and answering each other...
> I the floor the two of you help each other to avoid
> collapsing.By the embrace you are capable to see 180
> and your partner the other 180.In the blank part of
> your embrace she will help you to avoid step on
> somebody else.
> Once you invited or initiated a movement ..it is a
> interaction of lead and follow from the two of you.
> Do not tag yourself as a leader or your partner as a
> follower.
> Think as the argentinians: man role ,female role,and
> interaction.
> Regards.
> Daniel
> --- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> > Dear Eero and Sean, I agree with Manuel. It is the
> > mans job to avoid other dancers. It is difficult
> > work
> > at times, but it is part of being a good leader.
> One
> > learns to be a better dancer. Derik
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:52:59 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear friends and fellow tango dancers,
I see that I've spawned a minor storm of controversy by posting my concern
about how some teachers appear to be doing their job (apparently, not so
well). I like to make the following very clear:
I believe:
1. that tango dance can be taught and learned
2. the ability to navigate the floor can and must be taught and learned
3. the essense of tango is dancing to the music and with your partner
4. tango has a code and definite characteristics that make it unique
5. tango is a led and followed dance, the man marks and the woman executes
6. tango music (of the danceable kind) is the music for dancing tango
I also think that the navigation skills are an inseparable part of the tango
dance. We teach our students how to dance tango. This includes dancing
around the room and respecting the LOD. We do not just "tell them" to
respect the LOD, we "teach" them how to do it. We "teach" our students how
to move to the music of tango and in which manner. We've been successful
teachers and dancers for many years. We believe that we also must
continually learn more about tango, how to dance it and how to teach it. A
lot of our time is spent travelling to many places of the world to take
lessons from as many of the best masters as we can. This also has allowed us
to dance all over the world and to observe how tango is danced by the better
dancers in the most popular places.
I'm dismayed when I read how people with years of "dancing" tango (and I
presume taking instruction) are still unable to navigate the dance floor
with ease and confidence. Any teacher out there who cannot or will not teach
people to navigate the floor and dance right from the start, is doing their
students no great favor. There should be no need whatsoever to have special
worshops on "navigation" or "floor craft" if the teacher does his or her job
right.
If a dancer knows how to dance even if his or her repertory of steps is
modest, they'll have no problems dancing in a milonga. I respectfully
suggest that those who have the most trouble with other dancers "floor
craft", would do well to refine their own skills.
Having said all that, I'll also share that there are occasions when the
milongas are so crowded that even the best dancers are challenged. I've been
to all kinds of milongas and there is definitely such thing as "too crowded"
a good milonga will be held at a venue that affords enough space to be
comfortable and safe.
With best regards,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:29:08 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Hola Manuel,
You are usually so very analytical that I am surprised
to see you arguing against yourself in this thread.
Please allow me to explain. First, you argue that a
floorcraft seminar is unnecessary, because floorcraft
should be an integral part of any tango curriculum. In
a later post, you observe that many of the experienced
dancers at milongas do not know floorcraft.
Implicitly, there are some teachers out there who do
not include floorcraft in their curricula. What better
way to fill in the gaps in the students knowledge
than to offer a remedial seminar?
From the tone of your emails, one might conclude that
you would prefer that all of those semi-educated
dancers start over in your classes from the very
beginning. Wouldnt it be more efficient (to your
analytical way of thinking) to just fill in the gaps?
Perhaps you know a better way to fill those gaps than
with a focused seminar? If so, can you enlighten us
with a constructive post? Or are you only able to
attack your peers?
Actually, you postings seem more like a plea for the
masses to recognize your superior teaching methods.
Sorry, but being a better teacher than most is no big
deal. You know as well as the rest of this list that
most of the people selling tango have no clue how to
teach dance. Instead, they just show step patterns.
The proof is in the prevalence of the dreaded 8
count basic. Daniel Lapadula expressed this better on
ATOF. He observed that since 9/11 many Argentine
teachers can not get into the USA. So now tango
teachers are popping up like mushrooms to fill the
void. He used the word mushrooms because even though
mushrooms can grow on rocks, they have no roots.
By the way, I remember that several years ago you
danced beautiful patterns on the wide open floors up
here in the rust belt. Today Im sure that today your
dancing is even better on the spacious floors in
Atlanta. But I do wonder how your dance would fit on a
crowded floor.
Happy improvisation,
Sean
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:42:39 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Sean:
I have to tell you that I think that I may have seen
Miguel dance in a very confined space in New Orleans,
about as large as a coffee table, and he was
fantastic. If he is the Miguel that I met two years
ago during the summer at the tango festival there,
then he is truly a great dancer. I was very impressed
with him. He did all the wild steps and did them in a
very small spot on the floor, dancing next to myself
and two other couples. I was amazed. We all had zero
room to dance, because the venue was a really tiny
restaurant, where we danced impromptu for fun. I did
not know that it was him in this conversation until
just now, when you mentioned that he was from Atlanta.
If he is the same Miguel, then I agree with him more
than ever.
I think that he is saying that really good dancing is
integrated totally into the dance, and one cannot
separate out "floorcraft", "close embrace", etc .etc.
I think that he is saying that one needs to learn it
all together from the beginning, so one can flow
easily from one thing to the next...instead of
stumbling from one thing to the next. I think that he
is right about this. Unfortunately, we Americans tend
to separate out what we want from tango (ie: American
Tango, for instance, which which is very limited, and
now "close embrace" which is also very limited). I
think that we Americans need to learn the entire tango
dance, and do our job. There are no real shortcuts to
good dancing, as we would like to believe. I
personally want to have steak, not MacDonald's
hamburger, as a quick substitute, if you know what I
mean. My opinion.
Derik
--- Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> Hola Manuel,
>
> You are usually so very analytical that I am
> surprised
> to see you arguing against yourself in this thread.
> Please allow me to explain. First, you argue that a
> floorcraft seminar is unnecessary, because
> floorcraft
> should be an integral part of any tango curriculum.
> In
> a later post, you observe that many of the
> experienced
> dancers at milongas do not know floorcraft.
> Implicitly, there are some teachers out there who do
> not include floorcraft in their curricula. What
> better
> way to fill in the gaps in the students knowledge
> than to offer a remedial seminar?
>
> From the tone of your emails, one might conclude
> that
> you would prefer that all of those semi-educated
> dancers start over in your classes from the very
> beginning. Wouldnt it be more efficient (to your
> analytical way of thinking) to just fill in the
> gaps?
> Perhaps you know a better way to fill those gaps
> than
> with a focused seminar? If so, can you enlighten us
> with a constructive post? Or are you only able to
> attack your peers?
>
> Actually, you postings seem more like a plea for the
> masses to recognize your superior teaching methods.
> Sorry, but being a better teacher than most is no
> big
> deal. You know as well as the rest of this list that
> most of the people selling tango have no clue how to
> teach dance. Instead, they just show step patterns.
> The proof is in the prevalence of the dreaded 8
> count basic. Daniel Lapadula expressed this better
> on
> ATOF. He observed that since 9/11 many Argentine
> teachers can not get into the USA. So now tango
> teachers are popping up like mushrooms to fill the
> void. He used the word mushrooms because even though
> mushrooms can grow on rocks, they have no roots.
>
> By the way, I remember that several years ago you
> danced beautiful patterns on the wide open floors up
> here in the rust belt. Today Im sure that today
> your
> dancing is even better on the spacious floors in
> Atlanta. But I do wonder how your dance would fit on
> a
> crowded floor.
>
> Happy improvisation,
>
> Sean
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:49:12 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Sean,
Obviously you did not read any of my postings carefully enough. I need no
recognition as a great tango teacher. I'm confident enough about how I dance
and what I teach. I'll repeat myself once again..... I think it's a shame
that people need to be taught "floor craft" or "navigation" as a separate
topic. I firmly believe that these skills are the tango dance itself. It's
odd that you'd think I'm attacking my peers. All I've done is try to correct
the twisting of words and misunderstandings caused by folks such as yourself
who do not understand my posts and put words in my mouth.
Thank you for your kind words and compliments about our dancing. I assure
you that the spacious dance floors in Atlanta are quite comfy for me to
dance upon as well ;-) However, I don't think you understand or know about
how I dance given the space available. Do yourself a big favor and come down
to Atlanta to any of the tango events coming up. No doubt you'll get a
chance to see for yourself how I (and others) handle the crowded milongas.
There are actrually a lot of people in Atlanta dancing tango. You'd be
surprised at the numbers, the number of milongas and the level of dancing.
Respectfully,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:25:42 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Manuel:
Wow! What a night we had at that blues club on
Bourbon Street after the formal tango dance. The
people in the club did not know what to think of us
when we walked in. Susana, the Argentine, is my close
friend. She invited me and a Russian guy, Peter, who
dances salsa, not tango, to come to the dance to watch
her perform tango with Eric. Eric was there with his
girlfriend, so Susana wanted to be sure to get some
attention from at least two the guys. I also invited
a friend of mine, Adam, who I met in Paris. I took
him over to Bistro Latin and he loved it. Adam came to
New Orleans with his beautiful girlfriend, Johnna, who
was a great beginning dancer.
I remember that we all came in to the club still
dressed up in our tango suits and Susana was still
wearing her performance dress, jewels, necklace-choker
and her tango shoes direct from the show. We all
started to dance to the only music which was
available, which was definitely "alternative" rock n
roll, but the "live" music band was great and they
played good danceable music. The band loved the scene
and egged us on.
When you and Susana started dancing, everyone at the
bar just sat down and watched in amazement. My friend,
Adam, keep saying..unbelievable... He was taking
pictures and short movies of you two with his pocket
camera. I also remember that all the "lounge lizards"
and "bimbos" in the place, just kind of, all retreated
over to the bar for another drink, because they knew
that there was no way to compete with the dancing that
they saw you two doing. It was soo...beautiful and
elegant. The locals were just blown away. We all just
stood around and watched. What a scene. You left
early, after that, but Susana, Johnna, Adam, Peter and
I all went on to do all the bars on Bourbon Street,
danced in the street outside a club. Adam shot a
movie of me dancing with some woman with flowers in
her hair. It was a crazy evening, or morning. Susana
and I later heard that Johnna ended up swimming in the
fountain in front of the Casino at sunrise. What a
blast. You missed a lot of what happen, but your
dancing was definitely the highlight of the evening.
You were great.
By the way, I think that Susana is one of the very
best tango dancers, I have ever met. To me she is
hell to lead sometimes, because one has to be very
strong with her at times...and she can be moody, but
she can fly. That certainly did happen in New Orleans
when you danced with her. She was fantastic. To me
she is the quintessential Argentine woman, difficult
but fabulous. A great person, wonderful girl, salt of
the earth. Almost too much of a good thing...
My favorite story about an Argentine woman is one
where a newly married American is asked by his close
friend, "Well, how is she,your new Argentine wife?'
The American, says to his friend, "She is
wonderful....she is killing me. I cannot keep up with
her."
Anyway, great to talk with you again since that
memorable time in New Orleans. It is a small world.
Derik
--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
> ar 2005 17:42:39 -0800
> >
> >Dear Sean:
> >
> >I have to tell you that I think that I may have
> seen
> >Miguel dance in a very confined space in New
> Orleans,
> >about as large as a coffee table, and he was
> >fantastic. If he is the Miguel that I met two
> years
> >ago during the summer at the tango festival there,
> >then he is truly a great dancer. I was very
> impressed
> >with him. He did all the wild steps and did them in
> a
> >very small spot on the floor, dancing next to
> myself
> >and two other couples. I was amazed. We all had
> zero
> >room to dance, because the venue was a really tiny
> >restaurant, where we danced impromptu for fun. I
> did
> >not know that it was him in this conversation until
> >just now, when you mentioned that he was from
> Atlanta.
> > If he is the same Miguel, then I agree with him
> more
> >than ever.
>
>
> Thank you Derik for your kind words. I belive we
> were in the Fench Quarter
> dancing tango to some blues music (OK, I've outed
> myself as an "alternative"
> tango dancer ;-) ) Yes, that night we were all just
> playing around and I was
> dancing with a wonderful Argentinean dancer who was
> part of the show that
> night. That was fun and we did goof around a good
> bit. It was actually more
> room that someof the more crowded milongas, that's
> why we were able to do
> all those sacadas & boleos :-)
>
> Great dancing to all,
>
> Manuel
>
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 03:04:53 -0500
From: Gülden Özen
<gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
I hope I read this thread carefully enough to conclude that the initial
question was asked by a local instructor who was planning to hold a special
"navigation/floorcraft" seminar or workshop for the local dancers
especially after experiencing some problems on the social dance floor due
to mainly one person's lack of skills.
If this is the starting point then I totally agree with Manuel that any
local teacher should have navigational skills, musicality, improvisational
tools incorporated into her/his routine weekly class topics. This is
learning to dance tango and these elements cannot be separated from the
students/dancers' foundational set of skills. It is a learning process, it
takes time but it is certainly teachable and it is not a matter of a few
hours of studying these concepts during a few devoted lessons or workshops.
It is a matter of practice and as tango communities get more mature and
more experienced, there are generally more dancers who can exercise better
floorcraft. However, it is also possible to have a few extremes who would
do whatever they want to do regardless of the instruction provided or the
number of times they experienced running into others. I don't believe this
kind of situation is curable by a seminar or a workshop they most likely
will not attend.
If we are talking about a local event organizer who doesn't teach regular
classes but invites guest instructors to teach workshops occasionally, then
it is possible to see these concepts to be listed in some part of the class
topic line. However, it would be really odd if the guest instructor tries
to get her/his students practice the class material with no musicality, no
navigational concerns or no improvisational experimentation even if these
concepts are not mentioned in the topic line.
I have been on this list for ~7 yrs and I have seen some names posting
messages since the beginning. I assume those names that I am familiar with
since the first months of my subscription to this list have a reasonable
amount of experience in dancing tango. Especially, if some of these names
mention that they teach tango, then I assume they spend even more time
dancing than most of those who don't teach. I think it would be fair to
expect that these people would know the very basic concepts of social
Argentine tango such that they would be able to explain these concepts to
their students as well as to demonstrate them in their dancing. It is
surprising for me, for example, when I read a local "teacher" telling us,
in excitement, how he discovered for the first time in Buenos Aires that
the men he saw at the milongas were not doing any "pattern" close to what
he learned in his ~5 yrs of experience! They were leading the women and
listening for the response and then following through their lead!!! Now,
maybe I was just too fortunate that I had learned this very basic
improvisational tool within the first few months of my learning experience
but I find it difficult to believe how one can claim to be a teacher and
yet wait for 5 yrs to learn this! In a similar fashion, I agree with Manuel
once again that if we have been seeing postings by a local instructor on
this list for over 4-5 yrs then it is fair to expect that she/he knows
basic navigational tools and not only she/he knows them for her/his own
dancing but she/he knows how to teach them to the students. I feel
surprised to see that 90% of the current knowledge/skills of an instructor
have originated from a workshop held last year. I believe it is always
possible to refine our knowledge and skills not only on the "advanced"
concepts but also on the very basic concepts. However, I believe, at an
advanced level (I want to assume that most of the local instructors who
post to this list are advanced level dancers, at least, when they feel
like they can comment on teaching strategies) these changes/additions
wouldn't have to be more than 10-20% of the currently existing level. I
think, if an instructor claims that she/he learned 90% of what she/he knows
about floorcraft at a workshop one year ago, Manuel's statements don't
qualify as any kind of personal attack.
Since there are no schools that we can get "standard" tango education and
graduate as a certified tango instructor, the best way we can see how well
we are doing as self-claimed instructors is the number of out students who
can participate in the social events to enjoy what they do and the level of
dancing at our local milongas. I haven't been to Pittsburgh but I have been
to Atlanta. There were certainly many good local dancers with different
stylistic preferences yet they all could use the dance floor nicely even
when there were several hundreds of dancers on that floor including many
visitors from all over the US for a Gustavo-Giselle Anne workshop.
I find it useful to share positive and negative experiences and to learn
from each other.
I find:
1) parallel and cross system walking,
2) turns (at any necessary and possible degree) and
3) interruptions/changes of direction
as useful navigational and improvisational tools. I don't necessarily agree
that taking only very short steps is a basic tool for social dancing. A
good dancer should be able to lead and follow any size step that the floor
dynamics allow and the music invites.
Best,
Gulden
Durham, NC
www.tangophilia.com
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 03:34:31 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Better dancers are always better in floorcraft.
This is trivial and nothing to discuss about in this particular thread.
It seems to me most dangerous floor is not when it is packed with dancers or
there are few of them
, but something in between: feeling more space couples tend to dance faster
and less responsible.
But is there something to help to solve situations happening in this case?
We can "make the floor less crowded" and "minimize the damage".
I believe there are at least 2 important rules to achieve it:
1. A couple should never leave empty space between them and the boundary of
the dance floor.
Why it is so important? Because, people dancing in 3, 4, even 6 feet from
the border still
consider the margin their own space and tend occasionally take it without
care.
While another couple may already moving in with the predictable result.
Not to mention that they "SQUEEZE" THE DANCE FLOOR a lot making less space
available.
( see the geometrical example at the end )
What do you think, is it worth to inform your friends and teach students
always dance no farther than 1 foot from the border of the dance floor and
not to cut corners?
Couples dancing at the edge of the floor, on the outside have the advantage
of safest place,
but they should be more responsible understanding that the size of the whole
floor depends on
their ability to keep closer to the edge. We all benefit from it.
2. In a crowded situation a woman must not perform "high" boleos and sacadas
by default.
Only if it is lead. This may not prevent clashes, but definitely helps to
minimize damage.
Please, Ladies, keep your feet and heels on the floor, it is as cool as
opposite, even more.
( I am not talking about Canyengue-style walk where feet do not move outside
of the projection
of the bodies so it should be ok )
Both of these rules do not deal much with the art of dancing.
They should be just introduced in practice and observed.
Do you have more advices of similar sort?
I believe we in America are not quite the same social dancers like in
Argentina. We are dancer dancers.
Many of us do not come looking for a fiance or meeting friends but
to perfect ourselves in dancing taking it sometimes to extreme, crazy.
The fastest progress happens at extreme where speed is fast and balance is
at risk of falling.
And extreme is the coolest, but the most dangerous mood.
But I am sure there are methods to minimize the damage.
==== Igor Polk from San Francisco.
I have spend 2 hours writing and correcting this message. I hope you will
find it helpful.
The geometrical example:
Assume we have 30x30 ft floor which is pretty small.
Assume we have excellent dancers able to dance along the 3 ft lane at the
border not cutting corners.
Taking the middle of it, the "dancing perimeter" will be 27x48 ft.
Let us see what happens if they will dance only 1 ft farther from the edge
which is almost invisible.
The dancing perimeter will be 25x40 ft. 8 feet less!!! Good enough for 3
couple!
Let us step 2 feet inside which is usually happened on the best floors:
23x4’ ft.
16 feet less! 5 couples less! Only 2 feet from the edge!
And now please try to do similar arithmetic for your own floor.
Happy crazy dancing!
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 06:06:30 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Gulden, Yes, I agree with you and Manuel. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
wrote:
> I hope I read this thread carefully enough to
conclude that the initial
> question was asked by a local instructor who was
planning to hold a special
> "navigation/floorcraft" seminar or workshop for the
local dancers
> especially after experiencing some problems on the
social dance floor due
> to mainly one person's lack of skills.
>
> If this is the starting point then I totally agree
with Manuel that any
> local teacher should have navigational skills,
musicality, improvisational
> tools incorporated into her/his routine weekly class
topics. This is
> learning to dance tango and these elements cannot be
separated from the
> students/dancers' foundational set of skills. It is
a learning process, it
> takes time but it is certainly teachable and it is
not a matter of a few
> hours of studying these concepts during a few
devoted lessons or workshops.
> It is a matter of practice and as tango communities
get more mature and
> more experienced, there are generally more dancers
who can exercise better
> floorcraft. However, it is also possible to have a
few extremes who would
> do whatever they want to do regardless of the
instruction provided or the
> number of times they experienced running into
others. I don't believe this
> kind of situation is curable by a seminar or a
workshop they most likely
> will not attend.
>
> If we are talking about a local event organizer who
doesn't teach regular
> classes but invites guest instructors to teach
workshops occasionally, then
> it is possible to see these concepts to be listed in
some part of the class
> topic line. However, it would be really odd if the
guest instructor tries
> to get her/his students practice the class material
with no musicality, no
> navigational concerns or no improvisational
experimentation even if these
> concepts are not mentioned in the topic line.
>
> I have been on this list for ~7 yrs and I have seen
some names posting
> messages since the beginning. I assume those names
that I am familiar with
> since the first months of my subscription to this
list have a reasonable
> amount of experience in dancing tango. Especially,
if some of these names
> mention that they teach tango, then I assume they
spend even more time
> dancing than most of those who don't teach. I think
it would be fair to
> expect that these people would know the very basic
concepts of social
> Argentine tango such that they would be able to
explain these concepts to
> their students as well as to demonstrate them in
their dancing. It is
> surprising for me, for example, when I read a local
"teacher" telling us,
> in excitement, how he discovered for the first time
in Buenos Aires that
> the men he saw at the milongas were not doing any
"pattern" close to what
> he learned in his ~5 yrs of experience! They were
leading the women and
> listening for the response and then following
through their lead!!! Now,
> maybe I was just too fortunate that I had learned
this very basic
> improvisational tool within the first few months of
my learning experience
> but I find it difficult to believe how one can claim
to be a teacher and
> yet wait for 5 yrs to learn this! In a similar
fashion, I agree with Manuel
> once again that if we have been seeing postings by a
local instructor on
> this list for over 4-5 yrs then it is fair to expect
that she/he knows
> basic navigational tools and not only she/he knows
them for her/his own
> dancing but she/he knows how to teach them to the
students. I feel
> surprised to see that 90% of the current
knowledge/skills of an instructor
> have originated from a workshop held last year. I
believe it is always
> possible to refine our knowledge and skills not only
on the "advanced"
> concepts but also on the very basic concepts.
However, I believe, at an
> advanced level (I want to assume that most of the
local instructors who
> post to this list are advanced level dancers, at
least, when they feel
> like they can comment on teaching strategies) these
changes/additions
> wouldn't have to be more than 10-20% of the
currently
=== Message Truncated ===
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:59:51 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Manuel wrote:
>I think it's a shame that people need to be taught "floor craft"
>or "navigation" as a separate topic. I firmly believe that
>these skills are the tango dance itself.
I agree completely with Manuel that is a shame that floor craft,
navigation or improvisation needs to be taught as a separate topic.
Nonetheless, many teachers teach tango as a series of step patterns to be
memorized. That leaves many of their students ill prepared to dance
Argentine tango. With enough work, some of the students can reach through
the step patterns and figure out how to dance tango, but they will be
going well beyond what they were taught.
I don't think that Americans have a monopoly on teaching tango as step
patterns. Many of the best known traveling Argentines teach step patterns
that have little to do with the line of dance and then remind their
students to follow the line of dance.
In a community where some teachers are not teaching the skills, it could
prove to be good marketing for a teacher who does teach floor craft,
navigation and improvisation as an integrated part of their curriculum to
offer specialty classes in the topic. It might improve the skills of
dancers in their own community and attract people who have been studying
with others.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:01:38 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Hi Gulden,
Thank you so much for reading thoroughly the posts and offering your
response. Im very excited to see finally a cogent response or opinion based
on the actual subject. Naturally, I always like to see people agree with me
;-), but really, whats so nice is that whether you agree or disagree with
me, youve not misrepresented what I actually wrote.
Im sorry if I ruffled some feathers out there. My apologies to those of you
(Sean, my peers) whove felt insulted by me. I can sometimes come across
rather strongly, particularly when I feel Im being defined by others with
totally erroneous data. Dont forget Sean, you actually said:
>If this doesn't make sense to you, than you may not be ready to teach
>"floorcraft". More likely, you >are part of the problem.
Now, does my response seem so harsh now? Likewise, Tom Stermitz says for
some unfathomable reason:
>If Manuel believes that floorcraft can't be taught, maybe that is his
>personal experience. I have a >different >experience, so perhaps his
>mistake is merely to generalize from his personal experience.
Thankfully Gulden and Derik took the time to read what I said and posted
some logical responses and not knee-jerk reactions. I was probably unwise in
not couching my words in a more friendly way when I wrote my first post in
response to Lois question about the floor craft workshop.
Frankly and sincerely I wish her much luck and success in attracting and
teaching these basic skills to those who need them most. I also hope that
more teachers realize that the tango dance is the floor craft and they
should strive to teach it to their students. In my opinion, the workshops
with masters should be more for the teachers and advanced dancers to learn
and perfect the more difficult and intricate ways to move.
I think its the job of the local teachers to teach the basic navigational
skills to their students first. Only then, can they move on to more advanced
learning. Part of the problem of bad navigation, is caused by students who
take advanced workshops. They learn all sorts of fancy, intricate steps,
before theyve mastered navigation with the more basic and useable steps of
the social dance.
Yes, there are also skilled dancers who show-off and dance inappropriately
in the milongas. Alas, they will not be helped by any workshops since they
already know how to dance well. They just refuse to do it.
Respectfully,
Manuel
P.S. Thanks Derik for the good memories... I do think we need to chat
privately so I can catch up with the details I missed that night
;-)...........
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: G|lden Vzen <gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
>Reply-To: G|lden Vzen <gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
>Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 03:04:53 -0500
>
>I hope I read this thread carefully enough to conclude that the initial
>question was asked by a local instructor who was planning to hold a special
>"navigation/floorcraft" seminar or workshop for the local dancers
>especially after experiencing some problems on the social dance floor due
>to mainly one person's lack of skills.
>
>If this is the starting point then I totally agree with Manuel that any
>local teacher should have navigational skills, musicality, improvisational
>tools incorporated into her/his routine weekly class topics. This is
>learning to dance tango and these elements cannot be separated from the
>students/dancers' foundational set of skills. It is a learning process, it
>takes time but it is certainly teachable and it is not a matter of a few
>hours of studying these concepts during a few devoted lessons or workshops.
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:06:27 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
--- G|lden Vzen <gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM> wrote:
I feel surprised to see that 90% of the current
knowledge/skills of an instructor have originated from
a workshop held last year.
Hola G|lden,
I can understand how you and some others might be
confused to hear that one workshop from one teacher
had such a dramatic impact on a dancer with my
supposed experience. And I feel sorry for those people
because clearly they have never experienced great
teaching. I will try to clarify what I experienced
with Robert, but my best advice to everyone is to
invite him to teach in your city, and see for
yourself.
Obviously, I didnt learn new steps in a workshop
dedicated to improvisation and floorcraft. In fact, if
I remember correctly, Robert used the simplest figures
to illustrate his points: ochos and giros. But as any
social dancer knows, the steps are irrelevant. What
Robert taught was to bend the rules, to change the
steps to fit the music and the floor. He took linear
things, and wrapped them up in tight little coils. He
took round things, and stretched them out into long
lines. Things that wrap to the left he wrapped them
to the right. And so on. Hopefully you get the
picture.
The changes to my dance did not come from just those
90 minutes (duh!). They grew from that seed during
many hours of practice. I applied Roberts
warping-twisting-stretching thing to all of the
figures that I thought I knew. In that process,
those figures stopped being ideas borrowed from other
people, and became my own. Maybe they are not great
things, but they are now my things. And they fit
whatever music and space is available, without
conscious thought.
Sean
P.S. Tango is just my hobby. Trini is the proffesional teacher...
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:02:57 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
, if
> I remember correctly, Robert used the simplest figures
> to illustrate his points: ochos and giros. But as any
> social dancer knows, the steps are irrelevant. What
> Robert taught was to bend the rules, to change the
> steps to fit the music and the floor. He took linear
> things, and wrapped them up in tight little coils. He
> took round things, and stretched them out into long
> lines. Things that wrap to the left he wrapped them
> to the right. And so on. Hopefully you get the
> picture.
>
El Chino did not teach anything as fancy as that, but he made a point of
explaining immediately after he had taught the simplest kind of enrosque to
the men in the beginner's and lower intermediates class (just cross you feet
in front, and twist around on both feet, no lapiz or any of the more elegant
stuff yet), that during the enrosque, the man leads the woman to walk around
him in four steps. But, if at the end of that figure there is somebody just
in front of you, you simply make her take a fifth step and then walk
straight. Or finish the giro after only three steps, and walk striaght into
the opening created on the floor at that moment. Just adapt things to fit
into whatever formation other couples form on the floor.
Easy, simple enough, but something sadly missing from all those other
classes where people are made to practise figures in place, in complete
disregard of what might actually happen when you actually try them out at a
milonga, in a moving ronda. I don't know if he always teaches like that, but
I can imagine that he observed the confusion of some of the more
inexpierenced dancers when the number of people attending the Saturday
suddenly doubled the day El Chino showed up, with couples dancing in double
lanes, and the room being just as limited as ever. I, and probably many
others were quietly hoping that half of the guests would eventually leave,
so that we could all have enough room to dance, but noone left for a long
time. And the milonga was still continuing an hour past the usual closing
time, when I had to make a dash for the very last subway. Was fun, though.
Astrid
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:43:45 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
>From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
>Hola G|lden,
>
>I can understand how you and some others might be
>confused to hear that one workshop from one teacher
>had such a dramatic impact on a dancer with my
>supposed experience. And I feel sorry for those people
>because clearly they have never experienced great
>teaching.
There you go again Sean, not only you feel that some of us are not ready to
teach floor craft and are actually "part of the problem", but now you feel
sorry for those of us because "clearly they have never experienced great
teaching." Next thing you be complaining about all the terrible ad hominem
directed at you........
With all due respect to Robert Hauk who I know and respect, I think you are
wrong in assuming that only you and those who took the workshop with Robert
(which I'm sure was very good) have experienced "great teaching". Gulden &
Jason teach and have been teaching tango for years in N.C. Likewise other
good teachers are doing and have done "great teaching" for years. It's
presumptuous to say that no one else but you has received "great teaching".
It's also insulting to many other fine teachers to imply that they do not
know how to teach....... Maybe you should consider the impact of your
statements. They are based on very limited experience. You are likely to
provoke responses that will get you dander up again and you'll escalate the
whole thing again.
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:55:16 -0600
From: "A. Taniche" <ataniche@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
On Mar 5, 2005, at 2:00 AM, WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Dear Lois,
>
> I don't see the need to teach "floorcraft". The tango dance "is" the
> floorcraft. If people cannot dance on the floor with others at the
> milongas
> it is because they don't yet know how to dance tango.....
I admire your clarity and your precise understanding of what the tango
dance is.
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 05:33:04 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Taniche:
Yes, I agree with you. One either knows how to dance
Argentine tango or one does not. To me the dance must
have its integrity.
To me tango is like a fine steak. It is not chopped
meat. Chopped meat may be easy to chew, but it is not
all connected together like steak. This is why steak
is a top quality prime choice cut of meat, and
hamburger or chopped steak is of a lower grade.
American Tango in the United States happened the exact
same way that "close embrace" and "floorcraft"
happened. To me they are all chopped steak. They are
all very limited derivatives of Argentine Tango trying
to stand alone. In my opinion they should not be
learned separately, but as integrated parts of a whole
dance which is tied together. I think that this is
what we Americans in the US, and some Europeans, are
doing wrong in tango. We are selling it as chopped
steak, fast food, when we need to listen to the
Argentines and sell it as steak. Instead of inventing
all these Mac Donald'lized, cheap, easy-to-learn
"limited" versions of tango...chopped meat, we need to
learn the entire dance as one thing. Tango is fine
steak. It is the whole thing, not an assembly of
chopped up parts. We need to learn all of Argentine
tango together, just like the Argentines do, from the
beginning. This is why the Argentines can dance to
anything with anyone, and we cannot. We stumble from
one fad to another, trying to find a dance partner
that has memorized the steps to the "fad" we have
learned....seeking the dance, and this does not work.
We cannot dance well with anyone we choose, unless
they are in our little "club" of limited (bad)
dancers. I think that this is the point that Manuel
is trying to make and I think that he is right. My
opinion.
Derik
--- "A. Taniche" <ataniche@BELLSOUTH.NET> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 2005, at 2:00 AM, WHITE 95 R
> <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> > Dear Lois,
> >
> > I don't see the need to teach "floorcraft". The
> tango dance "is" the
> > floorcraft. If people cannot dance on the floor
> with others at the
> > milongas
> > it is because they don't yet know how to dance
> tango.....
>
> I admire your clarity and your precise understanding
> of what the tango
> dance is.
>
>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:47:33 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Derik wrote:
Tango is fine
> steak. It is the whole thing, not an assembly of
> chopped up parts. We need to learn all of Argentine
> tango together, just like the Argentines do, from the
> beginning. This is why the Argentines can dance to
> anything with anyone, and we cannot. We stumble from
> one fad to another, trying to find a dance partner
> that has memorized the steps to the "fad" we have
> learned....seeking the dance, and this does not work.
> We cannot dance well with anyone we choose, unless
> they are in our little "club" of limited (bad)
> dancers.
Generalisations galore.
Who is "we", Derik? Speak for yourself, please. And who are "the
Argentines"? There are plenty of Argentines who can't dance tango at all, or
very poorly, and actually prefer not to get any better (it might damage
their reputation). And then there are those, who teach endless step
sequences for people to memorise overseas, while their assistants, freshly
imported from Argentina, keep crashing into the dancers around them at every
try, with the students they are leading into these step patterns during
class.
And by the way, I hate this steak metapher. I wish, referrals to meat would
be left out of the art world, unless someone is speaking of "hams".
Astrid,
a former vegetarian, who can dance with almost anyone, and besides that,
loves "the Argentines", or at least, many of them
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:34:31 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Astrid, These fads show up in the US. Tango is
firstly a social gathering. There are limited dancers
and dance instructors in every country. The majoriy of
the truly great tango dancers are definitely from
Argentina. These are the Argentines. You saying to me
that you can dance with anybody is a generalization.
Give me a break... Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
wrote:
> Derik wrote:
> Tango is fine
> > steak. It is the whole thing, not an assembly of
> > chopped up parts. We need to learn all of
Argentine
> > tango together, just like the Argentines do, from
the
> > beginning. This is why the Argentines can dance
to
> > anything with anyone, and we cannot. We stumble
from
> > one fad to another, trying to find a dance partner
> > that has memorized the steps to the "fad" we have
> > learned....seeking the dance, and this does not
work.
> > We cannot dance well with anyone we choose, unless
> > they are in our little "club" of limited (bad)
> > dancers.
>
> Generalisations galore.
> Who is "we", Derik? Speak for yourself, please. And
who are "the
> Argentines"? There are plenty of Argentines who
can't dance tango at all, or
> very poorly, and actually prefer not to get any
better (it might damage
> their reputation). And then there are those, who
teach endless step
> sequences for people to memorise overseas, while
their assistants, freshly
> imported from Argentina, keep crashing into the
dancers around them at every
> try, with the students they are leading into these
step patterns during
> class.
> And by the way, I hate this steak metapher. I wish,
referrals to meat would
> be left out of the art world, unless someone is
speaking of "hams".
>
> Astrid,
> a former vegetarian, who can dance with almost
anyone, and besides that,
> loves "the Argentines", or at least, many of them
>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:33:57 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
"A. Taniche" <ataniche@BELLSOUTH.NET> writes:
> <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> (Manuel) wrote:
> >
> > I don't see the need to teach "floorcraft". The tango
> > dance "is" the floorcraft. If people cannot dance on
> > the floor with others at the milongas it is because
> > they don't yet know how to dance tango.....
>
> I admire your clarity and your precise understanding of
> what the tango dance is.
Yeah, well knowing the dance is only the half
of it. It is necessary to floorcraft, but not
sufficient for it. Does just "knowing the dance"
magically by osmosis teach you the etiquette of not
cutting corners, not zig-zagging across lanes, not
going backwards into the space behind you, and being
cognizant of not letting too much space open up in
front of you, thus frustrating all those stuck
behind?
Tom Stermitz is right, floorcraft needs to
be taught. As do other etiquette-related matters
like not teaching on the floor, and not loudly
chatting about how your day went at the office
as you move along the floor pretending you have
even the slightest idea what tango is all about.
Huck
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:15:33 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Perfect! Short and to the point. Wish I was better at
that - maybe I wouldn't ruffle so many feathers.
;)
Sean
--- Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU> wrote:
> Yeah, well knowing the dance is only the half
> of it. It is necessary to floorcraft, but not
> sufficient for it. Does just "knowing the dance"
> magically by osmosis teach you the etiquette of not
> cutting corners, not zig-zagging across lanes, not
> going backwards into the space behind you, and being
> cognizant of not letting too much space open up in
> front of you, thus frustrating all those stuck
> behind?
>
> Tom Stermitz is right, floorcraft needs to
> be taught. As do other etiquette-related matters
> like not teaching on the floor, and not loudly
> chatting about how your day went at the office
> as you move along the floor pretending you have
> even the slightest idea what tango is all about.
>
> Huck
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:01:59 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Sean,
Nicely put! Although obvious, the part quoted below represents a key
to tango hardly any teacher ever talks about. I imagine that for a lot
of intermediate dancers, a light bulb just came on. It did for me, and
I'll be putting this to work immediately.
Thank you very much!
Trini or Sean - PATangoS wrote:
>Robert used the simplest figures
>to illustrate his points: ochos and giros. But as any
>social dancer knows, the steps are irrelevant. What
>Robert taught was to bend the rules, to change the
>steps to fit the music and the floor. He took linear
>things, and wrapped them up in tight little coils. He
>took round things, and stretched them out into long
>lines. Things that wrap to the left he wrapped them
>to the right. And so on. Hopefully you get the
>picture.
>
>The changes to my dance did not come from just those
>90 minutes (duh!). They grew from that seed during
>many hours of practice. I applied Roberts
>warping-twisting-stretching thing to all of the
>figures that I thought I knew. In that process,
>those figures stopped being ideas borrowed from other
>people, and became my own. Maybe they are not great
>things, but they are now my things. And they fit
>whatever music and space is available, without
>conscious thought.
>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:23:54 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Astrid,
At first, I was in total agreement with you. I can
dance with almost anybody too. But after I read
Derik's post, I have to modify that. So I'll only say
that I can dance with anybody who says yes to my
invitation.
;)
Sean
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
Dear Astrid, These fads show up in the US. Tango is
firstly a social gathering. There are limited dancers
and dance instructors in every country. The majoriy of
the truly great tango dancers are definitely from
Argentina. These are the Argentines. You saying to me
that you can dance with anybody is a generalization.
Give me a break... Derik
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:45:58 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Huck, This is what happens when you learn tango
in pieces. Something important, like simple navigation
is left out. Navigation is not a stand alone course.
People are just bad dancers. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
wrote:
> "A. Taniche" <ataniche@BELLSOUTH.NET> writes:
> > <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> (Manuel) wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't see the need to teach "floorcraft". The
tango
> > > dance "is" the floorcraft. If people cannot
dance on
> > > the floor with others at the milongas it is
because
> > > they don't yet know how to dance tango.....
> >
> > I admire your clarity and your precise
understanding of
> > what the tango dance is.
>
> Yeah, well knowing the dance is only the half
> of it. It is necessary to floorcraft, but not
> sufficient for it. Does just "knowing the dance"
> magically by osmosis teach you the etiquette of not
> cutting corners, not zig-zagging across lanes, not
> going backwards into the space behind you, and being
> cognizant of not letting too much space open up in
> front of you, thus frustrating all those stuck
> behind?
>
> Tom Stermitz is right, floorcraft needs to
> be taught. As do other etiquette-related matters
> like not teaching on the floor, and not loudly
> chatting about how your day went at the office
> as you move along the floor pretending you have
> even the slightest idea what tango is all about.
>
> Huck
>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:58:14 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
It's presumptuous to say that no one else but you has
received "great teaching".
You're right! I'm glad I never said that. ~Sean ;)
--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> also wrote:
It's also insulting to many other fine teachers to
imply that they do not know how to teach.......
You're right again! I'm glad I never implied that.
For the list:
Great teachers are the ones who change your life
forever. Maybe its only a once-in-a-lifetime
experience. Those who have been so lucky know exactly
what Im talking about. My appreciation for Roberts
teaching in no way diminishes the many excellent
teachers in this world.
For Manuel:
You have to be passionate about teaching to be a great
teacher.
;)
Sean
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:01:46 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
>From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
>Reply-To: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
> Yeah, well knowing the dance is only the half
>of it. It is necessary to floorcraft, but not
>sufficient for it. Does just "knowing the dance"
>magically by osmosis teach you the etiquette of not
>cutting corners, not zig-zagging across lanes, not
>going backwards into the space behind you, and being
>cognizant of not letting too much space open up in
>front of you, thus frustrating all those stuck
>behind?
>
Huck, If you cut corners, zig zag across lanes and go backwards. You
obviously do not know how to dance tango. The dance of the tango "is" the
floorcraft. If you don't know how to navigate, you don't know how to dance
tango. By definition the tango dance is a social dance done to the tango
music in dance halls. You dance it with other people on the floor and
maintain a CCW rotation along a line of dance while moving along this line
more or less continuously. I you cannot do this, you obviously do not know
how to dance tango. Please read again and correct me if I'm wrong. I believe
that the tango dance consists moving in a special way to the music. Part of
this special way is dancing in the LOD. If you or anyone else believes you
can dance tango without navigating in the dance floor, we have no common
ground for a discussion. I guess Tom Stermitz and yourself believe that the
tango is somehow separate from the navigation skills needed to dance at the
milonga. I do not believe in such a notion.
Respectfully,
Manuel
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:44:59 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Derik, while I disagree a bit with your generalizations (certainly fads
exist, but not everyone who teaches in the US adopts that mentality), still
I value your experience and opinion, and would like you to expand a bit.
Specifically, you speak of learning the dance "as one thing."
Yet we don't have direct brain implanting possible, like in some movies
recently, so we have to start somewhere - teaching is inherently sequential.
Even in Argentina, let's say the start is listening to the music as a child.
Then perhaps the next step is watching some family member dance. Then
perhaps you go to your first milonga, and so on. It doesn't happen
instantaneously. But in the US, we don't have the luxury of the embedded
culture of tango. So what do we do?
What do you recommend as a course of instruction for a brand-new beginner in
the United States? What do you teach them first - what's your first lesson,
and the second and the third?
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
---Original Message Follows----
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:19:02 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Jay, Great question. Since tango is a language, I
do not try to translate it or find people to translate
it for me. This always leads to trouble. I try to
learn tango by living the dance. This basically means
going to the source which is the Argentines. I watch
them dance and I decide who I want to be. I choose who
I admire. They do not dictate to me. I learn by doing.
The short answer.., I always consider the source. The
closer to the souce, the better. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
> Derik, while I disagree a bit with your
generalizations (certainly fads
> exist, but not everyone who teaches in the US adopts
that mentality), still
> I value your experience and opinion, and would like
you to expand a bit.
> Specifically, you speak of learning the dance "as
one thing."
> Yet we don't have direct brain implanting possible,
like in some movies
> recently, so we have to start somewhere - teaching
is inherently sequential.
> Even in Argentina, let's say the start is listening
to the music as a child.
> Then perhaps the next step is watching some family
member dance. Then
> perhaps you go to your first milonga, and so on. It
doesn't happen
> instantaneously. But in the US, we don't have the
luxury of the embedded
> culture of tango. So what do we do?
>
> What do you recommend as a course of instruction for
a brand-new beginner in
> the United States? What do you teach them first -
what's your first lesson,
> and the second and the third?
>
> J in Portland
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
>
> ---Original Message Follows----
> From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
> Dear Taniche:
> ... In my opinion they should not be
> learned separately, but as integrated parts of a
whole
> dance which is tied together...
> ... we need to learn the entire dance as one thing.
> ... We need to learn all of Argentine tango
together, just like the
> Argentines do, from the
> beginning.
>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 02:02:15 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Derik, apologies for belaboring the point and putting you on the spot, but
your answer was not helpful for those many people living in the US that
don't have the means to travel to the source. And I dare say there are at
least hundreds if not thousands of them.
So again, I ask you, from your experience learning this dance, what would
you recommend to US-bound students who want to learn to tango and can't go
to BsAs?
What key elements would be first on your list for them to learn?
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Reply-To: d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:51:27 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Manuel writes:
> I guess Tom Stermitz and yourself believe that the
> tango is somehow separate from the navigation skills
> needed to dance at the milonga. I do not believe in
> such a notion.
So a man and a woman dancing tango as a couple
by themselves on an empty floor or stage are not,
by your definition, dancing tango, since they are
not participating in a milonga. Interesting.
Derik writes:
> Dear Huck, This is what happens when you learn tango
> in pieces.
My dear fellow, other than in the movie
The Matrix, where they load a tape into your
head and you can operate a helicopter 20 seconds
later, everything is learned in pieces. Did
you suddenly start speaking your entire native
tongue at about age 2, or did your linguistic
ability slowly develop over time? Did you
suddenly start walking, or did you crawl first?
But this is just an insignificant semantic
point (as are most things on this mailing list,
in my opinion), so let's just forget it and move
on to the heart of the matter.
> Something important, like simple navigation
> is left out. Navigation is not a stand alone course.
You mean, navigation shouldn't have to be
a standalone course, and you are right. But, as
you point out, in many cases, it's being left out
of tango instruction. If even mentioned at all,
it is only in a trivial manner, or as an afterthought,
rather than as the very fundamental rock upon which
social tango is built.
Too often dancing is taught solely for the
literal movement's own sake, as though the only goal
were to learn to dance as an individual couple in an
empty room, rather than to learn to actually
participate in social tango, ie., dance at a milonga
without bothering anybody. When the original
approach of the student's teacher(s) was wrong, then
remedial standalone navigation training can't be
avoided.
But it is inaccurate to say the dancer with
no clue about navigation "just can't dance tango."
He could possibly be capable of being paid to put
on a magnificent stage show; he just can't dance
social tango.
And Manuel is also barking up the wrong tree
with respect to where he thinks Tom Stermitz is
coming from, because he is one of the teachers who
*do* integrate the navigational aspects of tango
right from the very start of a student's instruction.
He only teaches navigation separately when he is
forced to, such as when people show up at his
festivals not knowing how to dance socially (though
they might think they do), and are making the
milongas miserable for everyone else.
Huck
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:43:39 -0800
From: Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
I would say to all of this crafty talk that moving well and considerately on
a dance floor is an extremely simple matter, as use of mental processing
powers goes. Someone who does not see it my way has, to my mind, failed to
grasp the (extremely simple) subject matter. However, I wish to specifically
disavow the tempting interpretation that I am implying that people fail to
grasp the issue always because of inability to do so. That is only one
possibility. Probably just a theoretical one. Floor etiquette is ThaT simple.
I think that some people bring to the table clear insights, as well as
(conceptual or actual) solutions, if at times slightly incomplete ones, or
slightly off. I would like to name as !ExampleS! (!) the following:
- Lois, the original perpetratress, who wants to do something concrete about
the problem, bless her;
- Richard the Sousa, that Bandit, who reminds us of a well documented
anti-myth;
- Ed Doyle, whose clear-as-a-bell posting should be carefully studied and
understood by anyone who presumes to have solutions or the right thinking, or
just wants to be part of the solution;
- John Gleason, who, inter alia, really understood Ed;
- Linda Alila, who talks sense;
- Tom Stermitz, who will be forgiven this one time for bringing up AgaiN
!!!!! his 8 count straw man (I am collecting his postings that omit the 8
count, due to their rarity, and expect to get rich selling them later);
- Astrid, minus foot insertion and like details;
- Sean, who, unlike some detractors, writes quite clearly, makes his thoughts
quite understandable, and understands quite adroitly what he reads - in this
thread, at any rate;
- Eero Olli on both diagnostics and remedies, including facetious ones, but
excluding the ill-advised idea of giving any judicial powers whatsoever to
the organisers of open-admission milongas;
- Joanne Pogros, on another, related, signal failure of the teaching
establishment;
- Daniel Lapadula, who leaves all of us swine with a pearl of tango thinking
... (or is it feeling?);
- Ramiro Garcia on simple points (modulo cunitas);
- Stephan Brown, who makes a few less obvious, but very pertinent, points;
- Huck Kennedy, ditto;
etc.
Now you all know the bit about those who are not part of the solution being
part of the problem, right? Absolutely. But I want to explicitly disavow any
abusive interpretation, according to which I am implying that those whom I
have not included above (but have contributed to this thread) are part of the
problem. Please! I gave mere ExampleS! And ended with "etc."! I even have
left one of my favorite contributions out on purpose! It could be YoU!
One thought of my own. Learning basic floor craft equals learning ThE floor
etiquette: do not interfere with the other dancers, move more or less in ThiN
onion-layer lanes counterclockwise around the room (but the onion is NOT
usually round !) Turn on one floor tile. Nothing could be simpler or more
teachable. It takes minutes, not years, to teach, though students will need
to practice it for quite some time afterwords - actually, for the rest of
their tango lives. Manuel is absolutely right that it is an integral part of
learning the dance properly from the beginning. Unfortunately what Manuel
persists in writing over the years on this subject leaves me, and I am sure
many others, under the impression that he feels that it is unimportant, nay,
so much as unnecessary, nay, WronG, to get either neophytes or badly trained
"old" dancers to be aware of the etiquette, or try to help them start on the
right foot, or mend their wayward ways, as the case may be.
At any rate ... some people get as far as being "popular teachers" among the
less sophisticated crowd without getting it AT ALL. Reading the postings of
listeros who want us to believe that they are popular teachers leaves me in
the dark about the one little detail: have they got it, or not? Now the trick
is to get those who did not get it to go to Lois's classes in
refrigerator-freezer country ... all the while hoping fervently that Lois is
one of those who got it. I am sure Manuel is not implicitly espousing the
idea: well, if they did not get it back then, when they started, too bad (for
us all), but no way I am going to teach them now. (Of course I have
misunderstood Manuel: we always do.)
If Manuel is implying that more AdvanceD floor craft amounts to learning more
tango, I agree. And it is going to be mostly a matter of experience, true. To
dance like a god/ess under any conditions whatsoever? Great! But there is a
devil in this. Many of those popular teachers, and other "amazing" dancers,
use their experience to commandeer the lion's share of dance freedom and
space, by limiting the freedom of all others. They develop the skill of using
every bit of "available" space without colliding too often with the (often
nearly scared) other dancers. Yeah, the space is "available" ... but only to
them, since the others will be dancing on egg shells, praying to be able to
stay, with their partners, out of harm's way.
Let me be dogmatic: the teacher who fails to teach their students (at ALL
levels!) how to achieve a smooth, laminar, dance flow, one that offers MORE
freedom to ALL, as opposed to a limiting, turbulent, expedient, unpredictable
flow, is failing to do his job. Nearly always, the reason is that the teacher
has not got it himself / herself. He may be a good darter-in-and-out, but
that is not good, co-operative floor craft; it is adversarial floor craft,
and it is ugly, unpleasant, and inconsiderate.
Do you want to know for sure what good floor craft is? I know, we need
celebrity legitimacy, right? OK, I will give it to you if you are in the USA.
Omar Vega is in NY these days. Invite him to your area, and watch him dance
around the floor. Then (if you are playing man) do the same or your best
approximation. You cannot go wrong. Clear enough?
Cheers,
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:54:56 -0500
From: ako <ako31@NYC.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
lima wrote:
"Do you want to know for sure what good floor craft is? I know, we need
celebrity legitimacy, right? OK, I will give it to you if you are in
the USA.
Omar Vega is in NY these days. Invite him to your area, and watch him
dance
around the floor. Then (if you are playing man) do the same or your best
approximation. You cannot go wrong. Clear enough?"
omar...i have spent much time watching omar both in class and in
malongas. his technical agility and mastery of both steps and
navigation has something that no one has mentioned thus far...the stamp
of time. omar has spent a lifetime in malongas and has an ease within
every movement that has become involuntary at this point. one cannot
expect the ability to take any newly earned skill and apply it with the
same ease and knowing as someone who has the advantage of a lifetime of
practice.
having come from some years of practicing aikido i would suggest that
the tango world borrow some of the mat philosophy for the malonga
floor. in aikido, as in tango, all levels of practitioners train with
any level. in aikido the idea is that it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the
black belts to practice with lower level belts in order to act as
models in both technique and dojo etiquette for upcoming students.
having been scared witless by the attack of a high ranking black belt
any technique went out the window many times because i was so nervous
and couldnt relax for the technique to be performed successfully. so is
the case with many beginner leaders. might i remind you that for a
beginner it is awfully intimidating to be leading amongst tango
'blackbelts' at a malonga, even if well versed in navigational skills.
i can remember having a meltdown at la belle epoch as a follower
myself!
my point is this...as navigational blackbelts, having patience and
generosity of spirit on the dance floor might be the best modeling.
what stands out in omar's dancing is his dignity and gentlemanlyness. i
have never seen him take his attention off his partner. he is relaxed
and if he feels that u are uptight (it is intimidating to be his
follower as well!) he pats ur back and whispers "relax" so that no one
can see. he protects the follower and everyone around him seamlessly.
this is the goal, how one gets there is irrelevant. how it is learned
is as individual as how each dancer approaches each step. but those
steps take time and for those who have more under their belts perhaps
judging others for wanting to speed up that process by taking classes
in it might not be wise
isnt there a saying..."bailas como so", you dance who you are? so a
novice will only dance as a novice. being mindful and patient perhaps
is the role of the more practiced.
andrea
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:35:15 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Andrea wrote:
> having come from some years of practicing aikido i would suggest that
> the tango world borrow some of the mat philosophy for the malonga
> floor. in aikido, as in tango, all levels of practitioners train with
> any level. in aikido the idea is that it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the
> black belts to practice with lower level belts in order to act as
> models in both technique and dojo etiquette for upcoming students.
> having been scared witless by the attack of a high ranking black belt
> any technique went out the window many times because i was so nervous
> and couldnt relax for the technique to be performed successfully. so is
> the case with many beginner leaders. might i remind you that for a
> beginner it is awfully intimidating to be leading amongst tango
> 'blackbelts' at a milonga, even if well versed in navigational skills.
> i can remember having a meltdown at la belle epoch as a follower
> myself!
>
> my point is this...as navigational blackbelts, having patience and
> generosity of spirit on the dance floor might be the best modeling.
This response is from Japan, the land of Aikido and Karate.
To start with your last point first: to have patience and generosity of
spirit is a necessary condition for becoming a black belt. For all I know,
together with the black belt, in Japan you acquire the qualification for
being a teacher of that craft. (Sadly, in tango, there is no black belt yet.
Nor any other belt to be acquired by examination, before you can become a
teacher)
The identifying quality of a "navigational blackbelt", however, in my
opinion, is that patience and generosity. I think, you should consider
yourself very lucky, if you find yourself on a floor together with those
"blackbelts", because that means, no matter, what a lousy dancer you are,
and how clueless you may still be about navigation, they will nonchalantly
and discretely maneuver around you, leaving you to your attempts at dancing
tango. Nothing scarier than being on a crowded floor of beginners and those
who only attend fantasia classes, in spite of being only an intermediate,
practising step formations in one place without moving in a ronda, the rest
of the week.
Of course, looking clumsy and awkward among all these smooth and elegant
dancers can be rather embarrassing for a beginner, but it is still a lot
more pleasant than being crowded in by a bunch of other beginners bumping
against each all the time. Having said that, the "first milonga just like in
Buenos Aires" in Tokyo was great fun, with all of us let loose on a dance
floor with 150 people, we wildly and exuberantly enjoyed the bumps and
crashes along with everything else, but then, firsts are always exciting,
but you would not want to act like that all of the time, once you know
better....
Yes, Andrea, it is true that in Japan, the responsibility of the "sempai",
the seniors, is to take responsibility to lead the "kohai", the juniors,
towards their own level of skill, in martial arts as in everything else,
which is a good thing. In the meantime, the juniors get to take out the
garbage, run errands, fetch beer and all that in return. At the same time, I
will never forget the way I saw the black belts treating each other. One
day, I breathlessly watched the black belt class at my Karate Dojo, as had
become my hobby and pastime for kicks, at the end of the evening. There were
two handsome young men, engaged in a lightening speed exchange of hits and
kicks. Sometimes, one of them was a fraction of a second too slow in
defending himself against an attack, and the opponent's foot would hit his
temple and knock him to the floor in one swift move. Or the other
blackbelt's clenched fist would end up right on his eyebrow, giving him a
black eye... So he would gather himself off the floor, regain his dignity,
stand up- and then both of the blackbelts would stand two meters apart from
each other, bow very politely, the agressor would thus express his apologies
for having caught his partner off guard--or for making him loose face? -Or
for honoring the opportunity to have a fight with this person? - and whoosh,
they were at each other again...
So, you see, Andrea, your analogy to martial arts is not a bad one. I just
wish, more people on the dance floor would have the same sense of dignity
and care for each other.
Astrid from Tokyo
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:35:15 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Carlos Lima wrote:
>Many of those popular teachers, and other "amazing" dancers,
>use their experience to commandeer the lion's share of dance freedom and
>space, by limiting the freedom of all others. They develop the skill of
using
>every bit of "available" space without colliding too often with the
(often
>nearly scared) other dancers. Yeah, the space is "available" ... but only
to
>them, since the others will be dancing on egg shells, praying to be able
to
>stay, with their partners, out of harm's way.
This is a very interesting observation. A number of years ago, I saw a
very well-known tango dancer at a very crowded milonga who seemed to part
the sea as he was dancing. Just watching him, it seemed as those who were
behind him in the line of dance were like the Egyptians trying to chase
Moses across the Red Sea. Later in the evening when I found myself
dancing near him, I learned the secret of his effect. One, he was famous
enough that no one wanted to humiliate themselves by colliding with him
and his partner. Two, he was consuming space and was a threat to collide
into anyone who was within two steps of him any direction.
With best regards,
Steve
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:12:36 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Jay:
You are asking me how I would teach tango. My answer
is that I do not teach tango and would not presume to
teach tango until I became totally fluent in the
language, and maybe not even then. It is the
Argentines who speak tango from 6 years old on up.
They learn it almost from birth. I do show people how
to do some limited stuff when they are at a milonga
for the very first time, to get them interested and
keep them excited about coming back to really learn
the dance, but that is my limit. I always tell them
to find an Argentine, and to dance at practicas and
milongas as much as possible...to learn by doing.
I want to tell you a story which explains my views
about learning a language. When I returned from
Paris, France last year, I was invited by some French
friends to the French Consulate for wine and cheese.
They did not tell me that the occasion was a lecture
in Micro Biology by Dr. Rousseau, who I think is head
of Baylor College of Medicine stem cell research, a
very interesting subject. (The French love to attend
lectures given by professors....lol).
I was probably a little high from all the wine,
because the subject was really very dry and technical,
so that probably helped me relax. Dr. Rousseau came
over and we talked at length in French about what he
was doing at Baylor and of course about the quality of
the wine and cheese. Apparently, the people at the
consulate overhead the conversation The next day, I
got a call and my friends and they said that the
consulate was recommending me to teach French at
Berlitz.
I went to Berlitz and they hired me. I liked its
program because Berlitz teaches languages to corporate
executives, who get raises in salary for learning new
languages, and it does this worldwide. Major
corporations, like Schlumberger (a French company in
Paris with offices in Houston), Air Liquide, Price
Waterhouse etc. ...all want their executives to
improve their "social communication skills, so they
hire Berlitz to the job.
To the point...
After Berlitz hired me, I told my sister what I was
doing. She was really upset and pissed off. She said
that I was not "qualified" to teach French at Berlitz.
I was really surprised at her reaction. I asked my
mom why she so upset. My mom reminded me that my
sister had a college degree in French and was a
certified French teacher in public high schools at one
time....lol My mom also said that my sister was now
taking French at Berlitz, because she wanted to be
able to communicate in a social situation. She said
that my sister was upset to learn that I might be her
French teacher...lol. C'est la vie...
Anyway, Jay, my point is that "translation" is not the
way to learn true social communication in another
language. One has to "live" the language and immerse
oneself in the culture which created it. It is the
only way to really "get it". This is how we learn as
children. It works.
Berlitz, which has been around for over 100 years,
uses the "total immersion" technique for learning
languages. Sometimes I spend 8 hours with a client,
including the lunch hour. All day, we only speak the
language that is being taught. We never ever
translate anything into English from French. Even
detailed explanations are in French. We have fun
talking about stuff that is relevant to corporate
executives, like business, food, exotic vacations etc.
etc. Berlitz has found over the years, that if
learning a language is boring and dull (endless
steps..), people tune out and loose interest.
This is why my sister and a lot of people with college
degrees in languages now show up at Berlitz to learn a
language. Berlitz's techniques work. People finally
learn the social language, instead of learning endless
translations. Now Berlitz even has long term
contracts with public schools to teach languages in
schools. Even the schools systems are finally
recognizing the value of total immersion as a way to
learn a new language.
To answer your question about what do people who
cannot travel do to learn tango...
I say that if people cannot travel to Argentina, then
they need to at least immerse themselves in tango with
Argentines, not American or European
translator-teachers. My advice to these tango teaches
is to stop teaching altogether until you are totally
fluent in Argentine tango and can speak Argentine
Spanish.
My thought is that if you really want to help your
students, instead of just being the big "all
important" teach tango, find people who really speak
the language of tango fluently and invite them to come
live with you and your students, and really show you
the dance. If you cannot do that, then do the next
best thing...buy the videos from the Argentines, and
hold Argentine practicas using the videos as a guide.
Instead of eating vegetarian meals, drinking distilled
water, and speaking English, buy some good Argentine
wine, eat some red meat, and learn to speak Argentine
Spanish. Try to get into the minds of the Argentines.
Then, you will become an Argentine, and the tango
language will make total sense. I think as long as we
Americans try to "translate" tango, we will continue
to find "pieces" missing. I think that my sister
learned this lesson while trying to study French. My
opinion.
Sorry that this post was so long...
Derik
--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Derik, apologies for belaboring the point and
> putting you on the spot, but
> your answer was not helpful for those many people
> living in the US that
> don't have the means to travel to the source. And I
> dare say there are at
> least hundreds if not thousands of them.
>
> So again, I ask you, from your experience learning
> this dance, what would
> you recommend to US-bound students who want to learn
> to tango and can't go
> to BsAs?
>
> What key elements would be first on your list for
> them to learn?
>
> J in Portland
> www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:59:30 -0500
From: Keith Elshaw <keith@TOTANGO.NET>
Subject: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Derek's was an interesting post from a thoughtful person.
However, it would be a terrible thing if those views were embraced. It would
be the death of the tango revival. And as Argentina ALWAYS follows the world
in the the acceptance of tango popularity, it would knock it back down
there, too.
Derek wrote:
>I say that if people cannot travel to Argentina, then
>they need to at least immerse themselves in tango with
>Argentines, not American or European
>translator-teachers. My advice to these tango teaches
>is to stop teaching altogether until you are totally
>fluent in Argentine tango and can speak Argentine
>Spanish.
While I understand the sincere and intelligent sentiment, I would point to
myself as an example of someone who immersed himself in the tango only with
Argentines in the beginning, the consequence of which was that it took me
years to unlearn the wrong way I was taught by them to dance (and these were
all top professionals). 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 is not the way to learn to dance
nice tango. Being Argentine and speaking the language is no automatic direct
link to the kingdom. A great many Argentine tango teachers have a quite
cynical streak in them. They "know" we will never "get it," so they give us
what their traditional thinking tells them is what we want. That type of
individual would do well to open their eyes and heart.
If everyone non-Argentine were to stop teaching, we'd go from hundreds of
instructors in the world to a few dozen overnight. For what? A naive,
presumptuous understanding. A Birgitta Winkler or an Alex Krebs, for
instance, have more quality, authentic social tango instruction to offer
than a great many Argentine instructors travelling the world. I don't know
how anyone in the know could dispute that.
The suggestion that it would be better to learn from videos is patently
absurd. Sorry, Derek. I think you will rue that comment one day.
I buy what you say about language learning, and know you have a good feel
for it. But you've committed the "sin" of ignoring your own admonition not
to translate one thing to another.
With respect,
Keith
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:18:31 -0600
From: "A. Taniche" <ataniche@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
On Mar 10, 2005, at 2:00 AM, huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU system wrote:
> Yeah, well knowing the dance is only the half
> of it. It is necessary to floorcraft, but not
> sufficient for it. Does just "knowing the dance"
Knowing the dance implies everything you list as a shopping list and is
necessary for everything.
That's why by just reading White95r's statement I can tell he knows,
and by reading your rant I can tell you don't.
Sorry PATangoS, you should aspire to know what White95 knows rather
than wishing to be brief. The short part of nothing is still nothing.
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:43:08 -0600
From: "A. Taniche" <ataniche@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
On Mar 10, 2005, at 2:00 AM, <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> system wrote:
> But in the US, we don't have the luxury of the embedded culture of
tango. So what do we do?
You keep your mouth shut, you open wide your ears and eyes and you stay
away from the computer.
You seek those with experience and authority in Buenos Aires, and agree
to go through boot camp like we, the "lucky" locals who have the desire
to learn do.
And stay away from sweeping generalizations...
>Even in Argentina, let's say the start is listening to the music as a
child.
Overrated and overblown.
Half of today's hot dogs have yet to listen to a tango.
>Then perhaps the next step is watching some family member dance.
Whenever a member of the family indulges in tango dancing, it is done
discretely, during off hours, and for different motives than preparing
young Jayrabe for the milongas.
> Then perhaps you go to your first milonga, and so on.
The day you are "allowed" to enter a milonga, you are expected to know
how to dance (in the White95r context) so you have wasted your
childhood and your youth.
On the other hand you can roll up your sleeves, and come and leave your
blood and sweat marks on some old creaky floor walking the kilometers
most of us are compelled to do to be allowed to dance at a milonga. Do
so with someone who is interested in being proud to take you to a
milonga and not hopeful that you will take him back with you to
wherever it is you call home.
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:05:03 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Keith:
I never said that one had to be an Argentine to teach
tango. Please read more closely.
>My advice to these tango teachers is to stop teaching
>altogether until you are totally fluent in Argentine
>tango and can speak Argentine Spanish.
I am not French, but I am fluent, so I can teach
French OK...at least Berlitz think so. It is about
fluency, not about being a native.
Also, a video is never as good as a real person, but
Berlitz uses videos all the time and they work.
Sorry.
Hey, I get ripped off my Frenchmen, my own people in
the USA and I am sure that I can get ripped off by
Argentine's. What does this have to do with learning
a language?
I say, find a good teacher by watching them dance on
the dance floor. Do not let celebrity tango dancers,
American, European or Argentine "sell you" that they
are good dancers. Look for yourself. I sometimes take
a class from a non-teacher who does a great step.
Voila! Simple.
Derik
--- Keith Elshaw <keith@TOTANGO.NET> wrote:
> Derek's was an interesting post from a thoughtful
> person.
>
> However, it would be a terrible thing if those views
> were embraced. It would
> be the death of the tango revival. And as Argentina
> ALWAYS follows the world
> in the the acceptance of tango popularity, it would
> knock it back down
> there, too.
>
> Derek wrote:
>
>
> >I say that if people cannot travel to Argentina,
> then
> >they need to at least immerse themselves in tango
> with
> >Argentines, not American or European
> >translator-teachers. My advice to these tango
> teaches
> >is to stop teaching altogether until you are
> totally
> >fluent in Argentine tango and can speak Argentine
> >Spanish.
>
> While I understand the sincere and intelligent
> sentiment, I would point to
> myself as an example of someone who immersed himself
> in the tango only with
> Argentines in the beginning, the consequence of
> which was that it took me
> years to unlearn the wrong way I was taught by them
> to dance (and these were
> all top professionals). 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 is not the
> way to learn to dance
> nice tango. Being Argentine and speaking the
> language is no automatic direct
> link to the kingdom. A great many Argentine tango
> teachers have a quite
> cynical streak in them. They "know" we will never
> "get it," so they give us
> what their traditional thinking tells them is what
> we want. That type of
> individual would do well to open their eyes and
> heart.
>
> If everyone non-Argentine were to stop teaching,
> we'd go from hundreds of
> instructors in the world to a few dozen overnight.
> For what? A naive,
> presumptuous understanding. A Birgitta Winkler or an
> Alex Krebs, for
> instance, have more quality, authentic social tango
> instruction to offer
> than a great many Argentine instructors travelling
> the world. I don't know
> how anyone in the know could dispute that.
>
> The suggestion that it would be better to learn from
> videos is patently
> absurd. Sorry, Derek. I think you will rue that
> comment one day.
>
> I buy what you say about language learning, and know
> you have a good feel
> for it. But you've committed the "sin" of ignoring
> your own admonition not
> to translate one thing to another.
>
> With respect,
>
> Keith
>
>
Make Yahoo! your home page
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:38:44 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Dear Derik
Have you met tango dancers who are Great Performers AND at the same time
Great Teachers of social and show tango?
Igor Polk
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:48:31 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Somehow this doesn't make sense-we must learn from only Argentines but you
can teach French without being French?
I can't agree that you must learn tango only from an Argentine, because I
have danced with so many lovely dancers who have never taken a lesson with
an Argentine. I've also seen dancers who have exclusively taken lessons from
Argentines for years, and still never "get" it.
Non-Argentines understand how we think, and can communicate with us better.
If they have traveled to Argentina multiple times, (of course this is
essential for a tango teacher) they can explain the culture better, because
they see the different culture in the light-something difficult for someone
who lives it.
I remember the first time I went to Bs.As. What an eye-opener! It totally
changed my tango.
Lois Donnay, Minneapolis
Arriving in Bs.As again on Friday the 18th!
I always tell them
> to find an Argentine, and to dance at practicas and
> milongas as much as possible...to learn by doing.
>
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:31:06 -0800
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Carlos: Nice post and well said it.
Abrazos with pearls of tango feelings.
Daniel
--- Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> I would say to all of this crafty talk that moving
> well and considerately on
> a dance floor is an extremely simple matter, as use
> of mental processing
> powers goes. Someone who does not see it my way has,
> to my mind, failed to
> grasp the (extremely simple) subject matter.
> However, I wish to specifically
> disavow the tempting interpretation that I am
> implying that people fail to
> grasp the issue always because of inability to do
> so. That is only one
> possibility. Probably just a theoretical one. Floor
> etiquette is ThaT simple.
>
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
Make Yahoo! your home page
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:45:58 -0800
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inviting people to floorcraft seminars
Steve: More interested than Carlos sems to be your
story!
I wonder why you did not complete your post saying the
dancer name.I could be me or any other one ...but from
your post....you lived it there...and so it is not
credible enough.Compromise!Once you start ,you finish!
Regards,and no hard feelings!
Daniel
--- Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote:
> Carlos Lima wrote:
> >Many of those popular teachers, and other "amazing"
> dancers,
> >use their experience to commandeer the lion's share
> of dance freedom and
> >space, by limiting the freedom of all others. They
> develop the skill of
> using
> >every bit of "available" space without colliding
> too often with the
> (often
> >nearly scared) other dancers. Yeah, the space is
> "available" ... but only
> to
> >them, since the others will be dancing on egg
> shells, praying to be able
> to
> >stay, with their partners, out of harm's way.
>
> This is a very interesting observation. A number of
> years ago, I saw a
> very well-known tango dancer at a very crowded
> milonga who seemed to part
> the sea as he was dancing. Just watching him, it
> seemed as those who were
> behind him in the line of dance were like the
> Egyptians trying to chase
> Moses across the Red Sea. Later in the evening when
> I found myself
> dancing near him, I learned the secret of his
> effect. One, he was famous
> enough that no one wanted to humiliate themselves by
> colliding with him
> and his partner. Two, he was consuming space and
> was a threat to collide
> into anyone who was within two steps of him any
> direction.
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
> https://www.tejastango.com/
>
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
