3302 Is Colgada a new element?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:26:17 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Is Colgada a new element?
Dear friends,
For the last couple of years I watch Colgada evolution.
For example, Julio Balmaceda and Corina de la Rosa dance a little
differently at
Fandango 2004 in Austin than at Tango Fireworks 2003 in LA ( more sublime,
fitting well into the salon style ).
I know our local gurus: Homer from San Francisco, Jaimes from Seattle, and
Alex from Portland.
I can not wait to see Julio y Corina performance at the Nora's Tango Week
these year.
It seems to me Colgada is not just an element, it is a class of elements, a
basis of a new style.
Can you help me to find in what group this element was developed, is there
an inventor?
Where are the roots of colgada? Does someone know the history of it?
Is it published in the Internet, I could not find anything?
I do not know myself how to do it yet.
Igor Polk from San Francisco.
By the way, this is my tour of Alcatraz - https://www.virtuar.com/alcatraz/
Yes, I have made it myself.
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:51:53 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Is Colgada a new element?
Igor wrote:
>>>
It seems to me Colgada is not just an element, it is a class of elements, a
basis of a new style.
Can you help me to find in what group this element was developed, is there
an inventor?
Where are the roots of colgada? Does someone know the history of it?
<<<
Nothing can be proven about who did something "first", lacking the divine
perspective on all tango dancers everywhere throughout time. But in
conventional terms, I understand the colgada, its naming, and its systematic
exploration as a tango element, can be traced to Gustavo and Giselle within
the last few years. It derived from Gustavo's tilting Giselle's axis
outward from the shared axis, making space in the embrace to enable her to
do an open-to-front-cross step around him in a very tight turn.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:42:45 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is Colgada a new element?
--- Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> wrote:
>
> Nothing can be proven about who did something
> "first", lacking the divine
> perspective on all tango dancers everywhere
> throughout time. But in
> conventional terms, I understand the colgada, its
> naming, and its systematic
> exploration as a tango element, can be traced to
> Gustavo and Giselle within
> the last few years. It derived from Gustavo's
> tilting Giselle's axis
> outward from the shared axis, making space in the
> embrace to enable her to
> do an open-to-front-cross step around him in a very
> tight turn.
Hi,
Trina, here.
I think what may be new is the "butt-sitting" that is
being taught as part of the colgada. I'm curious
where the "butt-sitting" started because one can do a
perfectly good colgada with the shoulders leaning out
rather than the butt sitting down. It certainly feels
more natural and does not require the woman to know
the step.
I remember a few years ago doing it with a partner by
accident before either of us knew that leaning out was
"legal". (Naturally, we thought we were doing
something wrong and didn't pursue it.) When Daniel
Lapadula was here a couple of weekends ago, we
revisited these natural colgadas, which seemed to work
better. All that was required was a good solid
embrace - no other learned technique.
It appears that some may be taking a natural thing and
making it harder, but I haven't figured out why. Any
comments?
Happy spinning,
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:53:11 -0800
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is Colgada a new element?
Hi Trina.
I remember that we were practicing and you told me
that ..that was a colgada?!?!
I still do not get it...What was the one?
I try to tell friends not to tag the tango by names on
movements but by the movements by themselves.
Best for both of you and see you in September.
--- Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> --- Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> wrote:
> >
> > Nothing can be proven about who did something
> > "first", lacking the divine
> > perspective on all tango dancers everywhere
> > throughout time. But in
> > conventional terms, I understand the colgada, its
> > naming, and its systematic
> > exploration as a tango element, can be traced to
> > Gustavo and Giselle within
> > the last few years. It derived from Gustavo's
> > tilting Giselle's axis
> > outward from the shared axis, making space in the
> > embrace to enable her to
> > do an open-to-front-cross step around him in a
> very
> > tight turn.
>
> Hi,
>
> Trina, here.
>
> I think what may be new is the "butt-sitting" that
> is
> being taught as part of the colgada. I'm curious
> where the "butt-sitting" started because one can do
> a
> perfectly good colgada with the shoulders leaning
> out
> rather than the butt sitting down. It certainly
> feels
> more natural and does not require the woman to know
> the step.
>
> I remember a few years ago doing it with a partner
> by
> accident before either of us knew that leaning out
> was
> "legal". (Naturally, we thought we were doing
> something wrong and didn't pursue it.) When Daniel
> Lapadula was here a couple of weekends ago, we
> revisited these natural colgadas, which seemed to
> work
> better. All that was required was a good solid
> embrace - no other learned technique.
>
> It appears that some may be taking a natural thing
> and
> making it harder, but I haven't figured out why.
> Any
> comments?
>
> Happy spinning,
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:27:04 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Is Colgada a new element?
Trina wrote:
>>>
I think what may be new is the "butt-sitting" that is being taught as part
of the colgada. I'm curious
where the "butt-sitting" started because one can do a perfectly good colgada
with the shoulders leaning out
rather than the butt sitting down. It certainly feels more natural and does
not require the woman to know
the step...we revisited these natural colgadas, which seemed to work better.
<<<
Approaches differ, of course, especially now that everyone is working with
them. Even the big-name teachers are evolving new ways of exploring them,
and (what a surprise) they don't always agree. Big ones, small ones, fast
ones, static ones without pivot, loooong-hanging spinning ones with multiple
steps, chained ones, butt-in, butt-out, etc.; they are proliferating like
rabbits, so generalizing is difficult.
I like to avoid calling things good or bad, natural or unnatural, right or
wrong, and focus just on "choices and consequences".
If my follower chooses to have her shoulders out too far in a spinning
colgada, outside of a line from foot to hips, I feel much more strain in my
arm than if she has a more neutral position. More of her weight is spinning
out farther from my axis, so it increases the forces that have to be
contained by holding on with my/our arms (as I said, teachers differ). It's
fun for her, swinging her shoulders and head out in a long languorous arc
(what Luciana Valle likes to call "playing Cyd Charisse") but it can really
be tiring. This effect may be imperceptible in very tiny colgadas, because
the force buildup is much smaller when she's in closer to me.
In the other extreme, she can have her butt out in a "butt-hanging" position
as long as her butt doesn't go out farther than her shoulders, and all will
still feel well from my end of the embrace. (This position will be very
familiar to any windsurfers who uphaul their sail). So the useful extremes
seem to be (1) a straight line between foot and head up a non-arcing spine -
very graceful and elegant looking, and on the other hand (2) a vertical
spine, with legs doing the hanging angle only to the hips (what you might
call "butt-sitting") which creates more room between the partners for
crossing-leg play. And, like volcadas, all off-axis forces are reduced when
not off-axis by very much. Choices & consequences...
>>>
All that was required was a good solid embrace - no other learned technique.
<<<
Since the colgada is a "hanging", your embrace will have to open somewhat at
the chest and shoulders, or your partner won't hang. Since your feet will
be staying together, often far closer than close-embrace tends to allow, any
but the smallest colgada will feel a little unnatural at first. I often try
with a new partner these tiny "natural" colgadas you may be referring to as
a way of letting them know that separating this way at the chest and
shoulders is not the end of the world, and then proceed to the bigger, more
fun ones.
>>>
It appears that some may be taking a natural thing and making it harder, but
I haven't figured out why. Any
comments?
<<<
For me the best consequences from choosing "big" (unnatural? "hard"?)
colgadas are:
- they often fit smoothly into crowded floors without disturbing other
dancers, because they consume relatively un-crowded space at shoulder level,
- the counter-lean lets our feet stay really close together, making more
foot room for other dancers where it's most needed,
- I get a good look at my partner's beautiful face and hair and appreciate
her stunning outfit,
- Followers seem to REALLY REALLY like them.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:25:12 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is Colgada a new element?
Hola Daniel,
You were spinning me on one foot in a half-turn and
stepping around my foot. It was a small one, but I
was definitely off-axis. Colgadas are off-axis turns.
I think that you're just so used to using compression
as part of your embrace after 30 years of dancing that
you don't recognize it as being different. For a lot
of teachers and a lot more dancers, the embrace is not
"alive" like yours is. The most "alive" training I
may get with it is that the woman's left arm can slide
up and down the man's back/right arm. I enjoyed our
"living" embrace.
Abrazos,
Trini
--- Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Hi Trina.
> I remember that we were practicing and you told me
> that ..that was a colgada?!?!
> I still do not get it...What was the one?
> I try to tell friends not to tag the tango by names
> on
> movements but by the movements by themselves.
> Best for both of you and see you in September.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:41:56 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is Colgada a new element?
Thanks, Brian, for being so clear.
So now the question is, how does the woman know when
it is butt-sitting? Or is there a way for the man to
indicate it is butt-sitting? If I tried to butt-sit
with Daniel, he'd wonder what was wrong with me.
The shoulders-out method appears to work
automatically. And I would think that the butt would
then start going out if 1)my partner had a really
solid embrace and 2)he really pushed me away. If I
didn't know the step, though, I would probably try to
lean out further with my shoulders and wonder what I
was doing wrong.
Trini
--- Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> wrote:
> If my follower chooses to have her shoulders out too
> far in a spinning
> colgada, outside of a line from foot to hips, I feel
> much more strain in my
> arm than if she has a more neutral position. More
> of her weight is spinning
> out farther from my axis, so it increases the forces
> that have to be
> contained by holding on with my/our arms (as I said,
> teachers differ). It's
> fun for her, swinging her shoulders and head out in
> a long languorous arc
> (what Luciana Valle likes to call "playing Cyd
> Charisse") but it can really
> be tiring. This effect may be imperceptible in very
> tiny colgadas, because
> the force buildup is much smaller when she's in
> closer to me.
>
> In the other extreme, she can have her butt out in a
> "butt-hanging" position
> as long as her butt doesn't go out farther than her
> shoulders, and all will
> still feel well from my end of the embrace. (This
> position will be very
> familiar to any windsurfers who uphaul their sail).
> So the useful extremes
> seem to be (1) a straight line between foot and head
> up a non-arcing spine -
> very graceful and elegant looking, and on the other
> hand (2) a vertical
> spine, with legs doing the hanging angle only to the
> hips (what you might
> call "butt-sitting") which creates more room between
> the partners for
> crossing-leg play. And, like volcadas, all off-axis
> forces are reduced when
> not off-axis by very much. Choices &
> consequences...
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:30:51 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: FW: [TANGO-L] Is Colgada a new element?
>>>
So now the question is, how does the woman know when
it is butt-sitting? Or is there a way for the man to
indicate it is butt-sitting?
<<<
Most discussions I've heard about leading colgadas suggest that this
technique decision is one that the follower makes. A leader would be well
advised not to try big colgadas with someone whose choice on this matter he
is not yet familiar with. Better to try some tiny ones first, earlier in
the tanda, to see how she responds naturally. If I find someone leaning out
away from me in the shoulders in a tiny colgada, I DEFINITELY will not try a
big one with them, and will stick with the smaller stuff. If I find they
choose a straight-spine-and-legs, hanging-angle-at-the-shoulders axis as the
embrace opens (no self-initiated outward lean of the shoulders) or a
"butt-sitting" position (vertical spine, with hanging angle coming from the
hips) then I assume bigger colgadas would be safe and fun with this
follower.
I could imagine leading experiments to try to get the follower to
"butt-sit", but my main concern would be that if we failed to share an
understanding of the lead, in the middle of a single-axis turn colgada, it
would complicate the dynamic balance between us that is my main task to
solve as a leader to keep us safe. It seems easier to me to just gently
learn what she will choose to do through experience, then work with that
expectation as I initiate the colgada.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:24:55 +1100
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Is Colgada a new element?
Apologies in advance if anyone is offended by me speaking about how I dance
tango. I make no claim to authenticity.
It gives me a wonderful insight into the dance (and language), that Daniel -
an excellent and widely-experienced dancer - does not need a name for this
movement, or to treat it separately.
In my extremely limited way, my body tells me to agree.
With some women, we have an embrace which is subtly 'fluid'. This makes our
dance more easily flow with momentum.
This means, I think, that a subtle colgada can occur naturally. It does not
really feel like a separate element. It is just the woman feeling safe and
comfortable balanced by the two bodies moving, as occurs in many other
dances.
This can continue through several steps without any specific lead.
Perhaps in exaggerating them to produce bigger moves, some teachers lose
this essence of where they seem to have come from? Or maybe it is easier to
teach that way. It is almost certainly easier to promote classes that way...
And 'butt-sitting'? (We would have to call it 'bum-sitting' over here...)
Well, I think if I lead a movement with momentum and a downward energy, a
strong woman will naturally balance herself that way. But, there is no need
for it in a colgada in close embrace, for example.
my 2.2c, YMMV, I have not been dancing long, I am not Argentine, you may
know better, this may not be tango, etc etc.
Gary
it seems that around 18/03/05 8:25 AM, Trini or Sean - PATangoS at
patangos@YAHOO.COM wrote (among other things):
> Hola Daniel,
>
> You were spinning me on one foot in a half-turn and
> stepping around my foot. It was a small one, but I
> was definitely off-axis. Colgadas are off-axis turns.
>
> I think that you're just so used to using compression
> as part of your embrace after 30 years of dancing that
> you don't recognize it as being different. For a lot
> of teachers and a lot more dancers, the embrace is not
> "alive" like yours is. The most "alive" training I
> may get with it is that the woman's left arm can slide
> up and down the man's back/right arm. I enjoyed our
> "living" embrace.
>
> Abrazos,
> Trini
>
>
> --- Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>> Hi Trina.
>> I remember that we were practicing and you told me
>> that ..that was a colgada?!?!
>> I still do not get it...What was the one?
>> I try to tell friends not to tag the tango by names
>> on
>> movements but by the movements by themselves.
>> Best for both of you and see you in September.
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:15:16 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Is Colgada a new element?
Homer Ladas taught a class in colgatas at Portland's ValenTango.
One of the variations he taught was what I think several people on the list
have called a "natural" colgata, done in close-embrace. The separation that
occurs is minimal. It really only amounts to an increase in the backward
pressure by the follower on the leader's right arm. But the slight
displacement of their respective axes that results is enough to create the
momentum of the centrifugal "swing" in the turn that is the characteristic
of colgatas as opposed to other single-axis turns.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:43:33 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: FW: [TANGO-L] Is Colgada a new element?
Homer called the two versions "plank" with bodies vertical from feet to
head, and "hip under" for the sitting or butt/bum down. The plank works
better for small colgatas, and the hip under is better for large ones. The
key to the lead is the leader's weight change and foot placement. When the
leader places his foot right next to the follower's weight-supporting foot,
and transfers weight to it while turning, the colgata just happens because
of the centrifugal forces generated by the turn. As an example, any time you
are doing a secada, and place your foot next to the follower's forward,
weight-bearing foot instead of the usual placement next to her trailing
foot, you get a colgata when you transfer your weight.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:09:01 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: FW: [TANGO-L] Is Colgada a new element?
Homer's presentation at Portland Valentango was very creative and
generous. He showed 20 or 40 great ideas in an hour and a half,
presenting many ways to use his ideas to create your own movements.
(Some "master" teachers are downright stingy, offering only 2 or 4
ideas in the same amount of time.)
I find that the choice of "plank" or "pike" is one of balance
(technique), opportunity (choice of movement), or visual (style).
The plank position requires a greater degree of skill and balance. The
"piked" version allows more fine control for balance, as you bend or
straighten your waist.
The pike permits the woman to cross into a forward ocho.
The plank permits a faster pivot.
Colgadas and Single-axis turns are quite commonly taught by numerous
traveling teachers. Colgadas, Single-axis turns and Volcadas seem to be
the "must-learn tango concept of 2000 - 2004". Names are just a
mechanism to talk about things.
Maybe this is another representation of "fads" in tango. Nothing wrong
with new ideas, but sometimes it seems like people go from class to
class pursuing new vocabulary instead of learning their fundamentals.
I suggest that musicality be the "fad" of the next decade!
On Mar 17, 2005, at 9:43 PM, Jay Rabe wrote:
> Homer called the two versions "plank" with bodies vertical from feet to
> head, and "hip under" for the sitting or butt/bum down. The plank works
> better for small colgatas, and the hip under is better for large ones.
> The
> key to the lead is the leader's weight change and foot placement. When
> the
> leader places his foot right next to the follower's weight-supporting
> foot,
> and transfers weight to it while turning, the colgata just happens
> because
> of the centrifugal forces generated by the turn. As an example, any
> time you
> are doing a secada, and place your foot next to the follower's forward,
> weight-bearing foot instead of the usual placement next to her trailing
> foot, you get a colgata when you transfer your weight.
>
> J in Portland
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:20:11 -0500
From: "Michael Figart II" <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] colgada
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hello List,
Geez, it's been quite boring lately, whattup? Right now, I'm interested
in definition of colgada. I say that it's "any turn where the axes of
each dancer "tilt" AWAY from that of the other".
Does it have to be a turn? Can it just be a turn aided by centrifugal
force? Can turns involving this force always be considered as colgadas?
Does this centrifugal force assist in other situations?
Can a "colgada" be considered as a milonguero element? I do a turn in
close-embrace that involves all of the above......is it still
milonguero?
And who's going to Meet in the Middle?
Regards,
Michael Figart II
Houston Tx
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 19:45:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] colgada
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hi Michael,
>Right now,I'm interested in definition of colgada.
> Does it have to be a turn?
No. A colgada that a lot of people teach in workshops
comes off of a sandwich. He sandwiches her feet, invites
her to lean back, and there's the colgada. Then they swing
around in arcs, forming a circular figure together. The
feet never move. When he swings her far enough, she just
steps forward, ending the colgada.
> Can it just be a turn aided by centrifugal
> force? Can turns involving this force always be
> considered as colgadas?
> Does this centrifugal force assist in other situations?
We've been using a little centrifugal force for boleos.
Also, there's single-axis turns, which is separate from
colgadas. I suppose that any time you want to add velocity
to her rotation, it would be helpful.
> Can a "colgada" be considered as a milonguero element? I
> do a turn in close-embrace that involves all of the
above......is it still milonguero?
Personally, I would say "no". It can be a bit disruptive
to the trance if it's a big turn. But that is only one
gal's opinion.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:35:23 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] colgada
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hi Michael,
Without wishing to spawn a semantic argument here over terminology, I
think we should say that a colgada is an off-axis _position_, usually
incorporating movement, usually in the form of a turn. Turning colgadas
predominate; there's no question they're the most popular form; but I
have seen performed, been taught, and done *linear* ones as well, as
well as *static* ones.
As for centrifugal force... That circular momentum only occurs if you're
doing a turning colgada, and even then it's an effect, not a cause. We
say we've done a colgada well when we're able to manage this effect, but
that's not how we make the move happen. Be careful, as always, not to
reduce the thing to a single trick, because usually there's more than
one trick involved-- counterweight, a shared axis, an elastic (and
"safety net") embrace, and contoured posture, in the case of colgadas.
(Add also circularity and contrary motion in the case of turning
colgadas.) These elements, layered one way, produce a colgada; layered
another way, or with different "geometry," they produce a volcada; take
away one element, and you get something else; add an element, and you
might create something we don't have a name for yet; isolate one layer--
e.g., contrary motion-- and you might get amagues; add circularity to
that, and you get boleos... then take away the circularity again, and
you can end up with linear boleos...
So does "centrifugal force" (or counterweight) have other applications?
There are turns you can do with it or without it. Does that make two
different moves? This is perhaps a semantic issue. What's important is
that we recognize tango technique as a layered phenomenon, and realize
that "what else" questions are as surely answered by creativity as they
are by tradition.
As for your other question-- I think the feasibility of a "milonguero
colgada" is a matter of taste and local prejudices. You can do a colgada
so small it's unseen. You can do one that's detectable to the informed
eye of another dancer, but barely. Whether we call this move
"milonguero" or "nuevo" is going to depend on what the rest of your
style is like, as well as how people interpret that element. For
instance, if I'm primarily an open-embrace nuevo dancer, and I do a tiny
(close) colgada in the middle of a dance, you could (a) call it more of
the same old nuevo, or (b) say it's a stylistic change to close embrace.
Ultimately, the question of what style a move belongs to is far less
interesting, I think, than the larger interpretive issues such as:
* Should we cross from one style to another as dancers (i.e., should we
improvise styles the same way, and at the same rate, that we improvise
steps)?
* Should we dance consistent but hybrid styles?
* Should we strive to preserve stylistic integrity?
I ask myself these questions as a pluralist, who's interested in finding
the best home (or moment) for any given style. I'm not wishy-washy about
these points: I have strong arguments for alternate sides, and haven't
yet figured out how to surmount the question.
But as for whether your colgada (or pseudo-colgada, or whatever),
Michael, belongs to "milonguero style" or not-- what do You think? Can
you make a case for it? A case against? And does answering the question
have a consequence?
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Michael Figart II wrote:
> Hello List,
>
> Geez, it's been quite boring lately, whattup? Right now, I'm interested
> in definition of colgada. I say that it's "any turn where the axes of
> each dancer "tilt" AWAY from that of the other".
>
> Does it have to be a turn? Can it just be a turn aided by centrifugal
> force? Can turns involving this force always be considered as colgadas?
> Does this centrifugal force assist in other situations?
>
> Can a "colgada" be considered as a milonguero element? I do a turn in
> close-embrace that involves all of the above......is it still
> milonguero?
>
> And who's going to Meet in the Middle?
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Figart II
> Houston Tx
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:20:47 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] colgada
To: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
> > Can a "colgada" be considered as a milonguero element? I
> > do a turn in close-embrace that involves all of the
> above......is it still milonguero?
>
> Personally, I would say "no". It can be a bit disruptive
> to the trance if it's a big turn. But that is only one
> gal's opinion.
>
I agree with Trini on this one. A colgata is a very strong accent, as seen
from the outside and also as felt from the inside of the couple.
As for the inside of the couple, as the lead is very different from the
other moves, it can be disruptive to the trance, yes. And the other day I
danced with an old friend who had apparently taken a long break from tango,
and he suddenly led a colgada by sort of tightening his grip above my waist
and heaving me around with a "whoomp!"That was definitely the worst part of
the danced with him. It also came unexpected as there was no accent in the
music to indicate a strong movement.
I also know another guy who trained in NY before returning to Japan with
some style that looks like nuevo tango learned by an ex-ball room dancer. He
uses big colgadas all the time, with the ends of his jacket flying. Only, he
even uses them when they are playing old D'Arienzo or Biagi... and then it
really looks kind of absurd.
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:38:04 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] colgada
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
The group of elements called Colgada have a base property for defining a new
tango style.
I my view this colgada-style has the great potential to become a
full-developed dancing style where each and every tango element including
straight steps is done with that "hanging back". In apilado there is a
definite lean forward ( and the more it is the more the style is
expressed ), and in colgada-style - there is lean backward.
I've seen some dances which were very inspirational in this sense. I see a
lot of interesting opportunities here and I am trying to practice it when I
can. I think it is not that difficult to start feeling it once you "let it
go". But keen sense of balance should help :)
Colgada-style is not necessarily more difficult than, say apilado. I think
mastering a turn in apilado ( preserving perfect lean ) requires much more
balancing abilities than the same in colgada. It may be so, because
colgada-style is an open-embrace style.
I do not know well how to transform nicely from vertical position, to
apilado, and to colgada-position. This is always most difficult. But I am
sure some masters will be able to find it out and tell us. This
transformation by itself could be a reach source of ideas.
Igor.
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:56:42 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] colgada
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hey Igor,
That kind of counterweight dancing is already being explored by a number
of people-- keep your eyes open, and you'll see it around the festivals.
As for transitioning between "posture"-styles or embraces, the best
thing you can do is make the transition gradual, smooth, and clear. I
find that a slight firming/relaxing of the embrace signals it well. Let
volcadas be your guide for getting in and out of apilado, and colgadas
do the same for a counterweight embrace.
Also, as an exercise, you might try playing with an open-embrace
"apilado." It sounds bizarre, and takes a bit of strength from both
partners (it'll make you sweat, if you don't already), but I've found
that it can clean up legwork and the weight-shift better than anything
else. It also clarifies that the lean is a pressure with horizontal (and
slightly upward) direction-- *not* down, as many people do without
realizing it. Just don't make the lean too deep, so you don't wreck, and
it'll explain itself pretty well.
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Igor Polk wrote:
> The group of elements called Colgada have a base property for defining a new
> tango style.
>
> I my view this colgada-style has the great potential to become a
> full-developed dancing style where each and every tango element including
> straight steps is done with that "hanging back". In apilado there is a
> definite lean forward ( and the more it is the more the style is
> expressed ), and in colgada-style - there is lean backward.
>
> I've seen some dances which were very inspirational in this sense. I see a
> lot of interesting opportunities here and I am trying to practice it when I
> can. I think it is not that difficult to start feeling it once you "let it
> go". But keen sense of balance should help :)
>
> Colgada-style is not necessarily more difficult than, say apilado. I think
> mastering a turn in apilado ( preserving perfect lean ) requires much more
> balancing abilities than the same in colgada. It may be so, because
> colgada-style is an open-embrace style.
>
> I do not know well how to transform nicely from vertical position, to
> apilado, and to colgada-position. This is always most difficult. But I am
> sure some masters will be able to find it out and tell us. This
> transformation by itself could be a reach source of ideas.
>
> Igor.
>
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:12:20 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] colgada
To: <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
I keep my eyes open that is how I know about it, Jake.
The best example I have liked so far:
Julio Balmaceda and Corina de La Rosa. Well, I am practicing it myself too:
the whole dance in counterweight, or as much as we are able to.
Counterweight is the thing well known to many Salon open embrace dancers,
especially with ballroom background: turns are made with that. A little
counterweight makes the movements nice, smooth, and dynamic. It is not
mostly counterweight there, it just feels similar: it centrifugal force (
but bodies lean backward a little). Counterweight is needed when there is no
rotation. So this probably is most difficult of making the whole dance in
Colgada style: smoothly replacing centrifugal force in turns with
counterweight in still positions and straight movements and vice versa.
As for Apilado, it is better just go into Apilado. Volcadas are not
necessary. Since Volcadas contain the apilado element and most people do not
know about deep apilado much, that what makes volcadas most difficult ( for
me at least - my whole body refuses an idea of getting into apilado just for
a moment! :))) )
The advice about open-embrace apilado sounds very interesting, I will try
it.
By the way, an idea about "basic step - 8 crosses" I have got from your site
is interesting too, thank you, Jake!
Igor.
Hey Igor,
That kind of counterweight dancing is already being explored by a number
of people-- keep your eyes open, and you'll see it around the festivals.
As for transitioning between "posture"-styles or embraces, the best
thing you can do is make the transition gradual, smooth, and clear. I
find that a slight firming/relaxing of the embrace signals it well. Let
volcadas be your guide for getting in and out of apilado, and colgadas
do the same for a counterweight embrace.
Also, as an exercise, you might try playing with an open-embrace
"apilado." It sounds bizarre, and takes a bit of strength from both
partners (it'll make you sweat, if you don't already), but I've found
that it can clean up legwork and the weight-shift better than anything
else. It also clarifies that the lean is a pressure with horizontal (and
slightly upward) direction-- *not* down, as many people do without
realizing it. Just don't make the lean too deep, so you don't wreck, and
it'll explain itself pretty well.
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
