1121 Is it Tango?
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:14:49 -0500
From: Varvara Kountouzi <varvarak@POBOX.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Is it Tango?
So, Rick's posting is not related to tango, whereas Andrew's is.
Interesting...
This, in conjunction with all the private messages that I received, from
people who have been threatened with exclusion from the list in the past
because their comments were 'not appropriate', and who warned me that if I
don't 'behave' the same will happen to me sooner or later, brings us to the
main issue here. Folks, has it ever occurred to you that this is
CENSORSHIP? You can come up with all sorts of excuses, about 'rules' and
'escape' and 'appropriateness', but deep down, under all the covers, that's
all there really is: CENSORSHIP! And once you provide an excuse for it,
there is no end.
The fact of the matter is that the major charm of the Internet is that (as
someone already pointed out but was 'conveniently' ignored) you DO NOT HAVE
to read anything. You don't like something, you hit 'delete'. It's so
easy! So when you protest about the 'relevance' of the topics to tango, you
are simply trying to cover -- from others and from yourself -- the fact
that you don't agree with what is being said, and you don't like others to
read it either.
Think about it. And if I get banned from this list, may this be my last
comment.
Barbara
At 10:48 AM 3/22/2003 -0500, Reuven wrote:
>Forgive me Rick, but exactly in which way is your posting related to
>Tango??????
>
>Reuven
>
>On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:59:14 -0800, "Rick FromPdx"
><bugs1959bunny@YAHOO.COM> said:
> > The US is not an innocent country & it is duplicitous to suggest
> > otherwise. Ask the indigenous people of North & South America, Africa &
> > other places. As well as people in SE Asia, Central America & on & on.
> > We can't have it both ways.
>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:18:11 +0000
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Is it Tango?
Varvara Kountouzi <varvarak@POBOX.UPENN.EDU> writes:
[...]
> Folks, has it ever occurred to you that this is CENSORSHIP? You can
> come up with all sorts of excuses, about 'rules' and 'escape' and
> 'appropriateness', but deep down, under all the covers, that's all
> there really is: CENSORSHIP! And once you provide an excuse for it,
> there is no end.
Perhaps it's censorship, or perhaps it's an attempt at classification.
Nobody's trying to stop anybody from saying whatever they want (within
the normal limits of whatever legal system they live in)---but that
doesn't mean everybody has a right to say whatever they want on
tango-l.
There are usage rules for the list. I'm not sure where the official
place to view them is, but here's a place:
<https://www.cyber-tango.com/tl_use.html>.
There's no shortage of places to discuss the war, cycling, or
butterfly-collecting, or anything else that people want to discuss.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to limit tango-l to tango, together with
rare excursions to related topics (such as political/economic problems
in Argentina) which are likely to be of specific interest to people
interested in tango.
> The fact of the matter is that the major charm of the Internet is
> that (as someone already pointed out but was 'conveniently' ignored)
> you DO NOT HAVE to read anything. You don't like something, you hit
> 'delete'. It's so easy!
*sigh*. Has everyone forgotten Canter and Siegel?
ObTango: I recently bought RCA Victor 100 Aņos, Astor Piazzolla (for
UK people, from <https://www.milonga.co.uk/>, a well run service,
IMHO).
It's not traditional dance music (although some is definitely
danceable by good enough dancers in the right mood), but there are
several tracks that are sublimely beautiful. A wonderful set of
recordings.
[...]
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:30:14 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Is it Tango?
This talk about censorship is ridiculous. It comes down
to a question about appropriateness. Supreme Court
Justice Oliver Wendell Homes wrote in
Schenck vs. United States:
"in many places and in ordinary times the defendants, in saying
all that was said in the circular, would have been within their constitutional rights." But the character of every act depends
upon the circumstances in which it is done." ..."The most
stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in
falsely shouting fire in a theater, and causing a panic. It does
not even protect a man from an injunction against
uttering words that may have all the effect of force."
There are limits to free speech. This list has been used
to discuss the economic plight of the Argentines. The
messages weren't strictly tango, but it was about the
birthplace of tango.
So I offer a compromise. If the United States goes to
war against Argentina, we'll talk about it on this list.
If the United States goes to war with a country
that DOESN'T dance tango, the authors will have to
find another list.
Michael
Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:58:28 -0500
From: Varvara Kountouzi <varvarak@POBOX.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Is it Tango?
Michael wrote:
.."The most
>stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in
>falsely shouting fire in a theater, and causing a panic. It does
>not even protect a man from an injunction against
>uttering words that may have all the effect of force."
How exactly is expressing one's opinion in a civilized, non-personal,
non-offending manner analogous to "falsely shouting fire in a theater" or
"uttering words that may have all the effect of force?"
Steve wrote:
"That is a a matter of
internet etiquette and common courtesy. Such rules do nothing to abridge
one's freedom to speak or write, but they do protect the freedom to not
listen or read. People who have joined Tango-L have agreed to read
discussion about Argentine tango. They have not agreed to read about war,
geopolitics, medicine, automobiles, careers, personal development, stereo
equipment, etc."
Aside from the fact that the topic of war is hardly similar to the topics
of medicine, automobiles, careers or stereo equipment, statements of the
kind "related to Argentine tango" are very fluid. Who is to say what is
'directly relevant'? Give me any topic, and I can make a very sound
argument about its ultimate relevance to tango. (And yes, Pablo, all those
topics have been discussed in TANGO-L from time to time and have been found
relevant by those in favor and irrelevant by those against. Likewise, some
people posted tango lyrics which directly pointed out the relevance of war
to tango, but these were also conveniently ignored). Is this the point? No.
The point is that we label everything as 'relevant' or 'irrelevant'
according to our interests.
Another interesting phenomenon is that my comment about censorship caused
more uproar on the list than the topic of war or even the message from
Italy. And as usual, the people who think that censorship is legitimate in
a private forum are the only ones able to express themselves freely in that
forum, whereas all the rest sent me their support privately. So, Pablo,
where is the contradiction now?
All this is really sad. And then people have the nerve to deny the Germans
the moral authority to participate in a debate (in the 21st century!), when
at the same time they are twice as worse...such hypocrisy!
So, if there is a conclusion from this 'civilized exchange of views' over
the last couple of days, it's that the Bush administration -- or any
administration -- is by no means to blame for whatever is going on in the
world. We, the public, have brought it to ourselves and will continue to do
so by dismissing any invitation to put our brains to work as 'irrelevant to
the topic'! So very sad...
This was my last public comment (yes, I mean it!). I will now stop
pestering you so you may go back to discussing the more relevant topics and
forget about the ugly reality.
Sad regards,
Barbara
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:52:50 -0800
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is it Tango?
Thank you.
Elemer in Redmond
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:58:28 -0500 Varvara Kountouzi
<varvarak@POBOX.UPENN.EDU> writes:
> This was my last public comment (yes, I mean it!). I will now stop
> pestering you so you may go back to discussing the more relevant
> topics and
> forget about the ugly reality.
>
> Sad regards,
> Barbara
>
>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:38:27 -0500
From: Lisandro Gomez <lisandro.gomez@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Is it Tango?
> Michael wrote:
>
> So I offer a compromise. If the United States goes to
> war against Argentina, we'll talk about it on this list.
> If the United States goes to war with a country
> that DOESN'T dance tango, the authors will have to
> find another list.
>
According to this logic, we can also say:
If I am a U.S. citizen, and I dance tango, and United States is bombing any
country including Argentina, well, I guess we'll talk about it on this list.
By the way, there any tango in Baghdad?
Lisandro
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:50:48 -0800
From: Rick FromPdx <bugs1959bunny@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is it Tango?
I screwed up, off-topic is off-topic. Sorry about that. Someone could always create a Tango-P for politics, ugh... I really like being part of Tango-L & have learned a lot here. Next lesson: when to shut up. I'm getting used to being exposed to all kind of strange ideas, no sense getting used to that here...
R
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:48:29 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Is it Tango?
> By the way, there any tango in Baghdad?
>
> Lisandro
>
Sorry, I don't know. But I do know, that belly dance, which they do have in
all Arabian countries, has had an influence on the development of Flamenco
(the gypsies passed through Egypt and those areas, check the movie "Latcho
Drom" for that). And Flamenco is one of the roots of tango....
I do know, that they have tango in Tel Aviv. AND belly dance...Have just
been to one of the wildest parties in my life, dancewise, last week, when I
got invited by a tanguero to celebrate Purim (a festival for the anniversary
of not getting attacked by another country in March one day in ancient
times...) with him and his friends in an Israeli restaurant in Tokyo. Boy,
these guys really know how to party !
If they do have tango in Bagdad, it would be an "underground" culture, I
imagine, as men and women are culturally (and legally) not allowed to touch
in public.
Astrid
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 09:24:29 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is it Tango?
Uh, not exactly - Purim celebrates the Jews not
getting wiped out in their own country by the
legitimate (recognized) government. See Book of
Esther, Old Testament. On the other hand, it does all
start out with Queen Vashti refusing to be displayed
for her beauty in front of guests - and I believe some
understand that what she was refusing to do was dance
in the nude - so it's not too far off topic.
Cheers!
Marisa
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> belly dance...Have just
> been to one of the wildest parties in my life,
> dancewise, last week, when I
> got invited by a tanguero to celebrate Purim (a
> festival for the anniversary
> of not getting attacked by another country in March
> one day in ancient
> times...) with him and his friends in an Israeli
> restaurant in Tokyo. Boy,
> these guys really know how to party !
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 11:33:35 -0800
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is it Tango?
--- Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> I believe
> some
> understand that what she was refusing to do was
> dance
> in the nude - so it's not too far off topic.
I guess no one thought to suggest that she try dancing
in her bathing suit...
Jai
NYC
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