447 Keeping the men
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:05:36 +0100
From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
Subject: Keeping the men
I have one advice for those clubs who are suffering with high dropout rate
for men.
I sometimes 'adopt' a promising new female danser and try to help her find
her way in the world of tango. The new followers learn a lot from dansing
with good leaders, and often both parties find these danses rewarding.
But the oppisite is seldom true. The new leaders don't have the same kind
of opportunity to learn from the good followers. Probably, partly because,
the good followers prefer the good leaders, and partly because they do not
get feedback from the good followers, if they first get a dance.
I would suggest that the followers team togheter to adopt the men they want
to keep in the clubb. If several of the better female dancers adopt two men
each, and give them feedback after dancing, these lucky men are likely to
STAY and DEVELOPE. Unfortunately this is a long term project... you have
be willing to stick with them for a year or two to see the results.
I our club several of women have their own protages, who get a little extra
attention at the milongas. I think the women have several advantages with
this:
1) they have influence on who are the men that stay.
2) by participating in the 'forming' of a leader by commenting on their
dancing, they help to create the kind of leaders they want.
3) By increasing the number of OK leaders in the club, they themselves are
likely to get more danses with the good leaders because the pressure on the
good leaders is going to diminish.
4) By having a good suply of OK men in the clubb will make it more likely
that the at least some of them has the talent and dedication to become
really good.
5) Trying to explain the leaders role to a leader demands a certain amount
of reflection over the role of follower, which is likely to improve their
own dancing too.
6) When followers see that they are not going to get THE dance they are
waiting for, they have a 'project' they can attend to, thus making it less
boring to wait. (and soon perhaps there are so many men that they need not
to wait).
7) By adopting a leader the followers are making themselves more visible in
the club, and hopefully getting more dances and more influence in the club.
Good luck,
Eero Olli
https://bergentango.no
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:25:08 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Keeping the men
There's been a lot of writing about keeping men in tango. There's been
some good suggestions, which I won't repeat. I share my experiences when
I started dancing tango. I considered leaving tango many times, but I
stayed. My observations for men are -
I. Don't be Intimidated by "better" dancers
I was absolutely intimidated at milongas by men who could lead paradas,
molinetes, and other figures I still don't know the name and by the women
who danced them. I convinced myself that these women would NEVER dance
with me because my skill level was so inferior. I did some research for
an article for the tango magazine "La Voz del Tango." Women told me that
what they want from a man is a) gentle, but firm lead, b) stay on the
beat, c) lead CORRECTLY the desired figure. One woman told me in
exasperation "I'd give anything for a man who could simply lead walking,
crossing, and ochos."
2. Women should offer praise and encouragement
Men are convinced figures are the reason to dance tango. Anything a woman
can say to a man that figures are not as important as frame, axis,
posture, and balance will go a long way to retain men. Say something
nice. Words of praise go a LONG way. It worked on me!! And I was pathetic
when I started. But after one year of private lessons, I moved up to
terrible.
3. Technique
What are the teachers emphasizing? If it's steps, the men will be gone.
Teaching steps leads to the wrong conclusion that men lead with their
feet.
4. Finding a woman to dance.
Women have to send a signal they want to dance. When they congregate and
talk, they send a message "I don't want to dance now. I want to talk."
That's OK. A milonga is for dancing and socializing. But is it really
fair to expect a man ask you to dance by breaking up a conversation?
That's about as far as I wish to stick out my short neck. I'm getting out
my umbrella now!
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Dreamed of retiring and moving to New York -- until I saw the "New York
Times" real estate section
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:59:23 -0800
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Keeping the men
Micheal Dikoff wrote:
>Women have to send a signal they want to dance. When they congregate
> and
> talk, they send a message "I don't want to dance now. I want to talk."
> That's OK. A milonga is for dancing and socializing. But is it really
> fair to expect a man ask you to dance by breaking up a conversation?
I would have to concur with this statement. Though I'm not intimidated
within my own community, I can be when I go to places where I am an unfamiliar
face. It is daunting to go up to a group of women almost twice my age(I'm
20) and ask one of them to dance.
It's ok to socialize, but many women aren't good at making it known that
they want to dance. If you sit there looking dour, or are engrossed
in conversation, chances are that men will go for someone who's more
inviting. I've noticed in Southern California that the "eye contact"
method of asking a partner to dance is almost nonexistant. These factors
are aggrevated when the man in inexperienced or new to the community,
and is insecure in his place.
As for attracting men, I haven't the faintest idea...
--
clayton beach
akumushi@onebox.com - email
(866) 248-7670 x7206 - voicemail/fax
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:58:13 -0800
From: sarah La Rocca <danzisima@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Attracting and keeping the men
Dear List,
Question: How to attract more men to tango?
Answer: open a topless milonga.
Sarah
NYC
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:39:41 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRYHART.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Attracting and keeping the men
I don't know how many men would agree to going topless to a milonga. ;-)
El Abrazo
-----Original Message-----
From: sarah La Rocca [mailto:danzisima@YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Friday, 1 March 2002 12:58 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Attracting and keeping the men
Dear List,
Question: How to attract more men to tango?
Answer: open a topless milonga.
Sarah
NYC
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:18:51 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Using eye contact (was: Keeping the men)
Clayton Beach wrote:
>I've noticed in Southern California that the "eye contact"
>method of asking a partner to dance is almost nonexistant.
I use the eye contact method extensively, even in cities where others do
not. I find that it works quite well. As for interupting a woman who is
engrossed in a conversation, I will only try to catch her eye. If I
cannot, I will not show the disrespect of interupting her.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:01:41 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Attracting and keeping the men
Sarah:
That will give new meaning to your location for milongas: Stepping Out
Michael
LOL in Washington, DC
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:58:13 -0800 sarah La Rocca <danzisima@YAHOO.COM>
writes:
> Dear List,
>
> Question: How to attract more men to tango?
>
> Answer: open a topless milonga.
>
> Sarah
> NYC
>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:53:17 -0800
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Go get 'em (was Keeping the men)
--- clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM> wrote:
> Micheal Dikoff wrote:
> >Women have to send a signal they want to dance.
> When they congregate
> > and
> > talk, they send a message "I don't want to dance
> now. I want to talk."
> > That's OK. A milonga is for dancing and
> socializing. But is it really
> > fair to expect a man ask you to dance by breaking
> up a conversation?
>
> I would have to concur with this statement. Though
> I'm not intimidated
> within my own community, I can be when I go to
> places where I am an unfamiliar
> face. It is daunting to go up to a group of women
> almost twice my age(I'm
> 20) and ask one of them to dance.
>
> It's ok to socialize, but many women aren't good at
> making it known that
> they want to dance.
GO GET 'EM! If they want to talk, they can turn you
down, say they're "on a break", whatever. They're
probably talking because it's a drag to sit there and
do nothing while you're trying to muster the nerve to
GO GET 'EM!
I think it's probably a good idea not to approach a
woman talking with a man. They could be on a date, or
they might be preparing for a dance soon. It's not
polite in that case to "move in".
Milongas are not the time to wait for approval! Don't
apologize for your desires. Ask for what you want.
Graciously accept rejection if it comes. Don't lay
the burden of responsibility for your desires on the
women at those milongas. Just...
GO GET 'EM! Yayyyy
Jai
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:06:44 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Attracting and keeping the men
Sarah La Rocca writes:
> Question: How to attract more men to tango?
>
> Answer: open a topless milonga.
That could be very interesting when one considers
the moods of the various dances. Topless milonga would
have an almost slapstick-burlesque feel. The vals cruzada
would be very innocent and gay, in the pollyannish sense
of the word.
Since tango is such a serious dance, however, topless
tango would be dark, mysterious, and surrealistic, and no
doubt extremely sensual and erotic (think Eyes Wide Shut).
I vote yes!
Huck
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:44:57 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <shepherd@ARBORLAW.COM>
Subject: Re: Go get 'em (was Keeping the men)
Jai Jeffryes wrote:
>
> Milongas are not the time to wait for approval! Don't
> apologize for your desires. Ask for what you want.
> Graciously accept rejection if it comes. Don't lay
> the burden of responsibility for your desires on the
> women at those milongas. Just...
>
> GO GET 'EM! Yayyyy
Bravo, Jai--bravo, bravo...
(Yeah, I know, men want to be asked too and not have to do all the
asking). I have a great suggestion for those cities with milongas that
consistently have more women than men: the milonga DJ should announce
"Ladies Choice for the next hour" and then the women are supposed to ask
the men. This takes the pressure off everyone worrying about who should
be asking who and lets the guys have a rest.
Then, the women should do what has been suggested by many on this list:
go up to beginners and ask them, encourage them, smile and help them
have a great dance experience so they will want to come back. It's a
difficult dance--probably the most difficult of all the dances to lead.
The men need encouragement to want to continue to learn.
I also think it helps to discourage dancing tandas with the same
partner. I love dancing tandas as much as anyone, it's a great
tradition that makes tango different and unique, but it should be
discouraged if there are a lot of beginners. The beginner leaders get
overwhelmed trying to lead an entire tanda, it's a big mental task and
many beginner men have told me they go on overload. And for the
followers it's a big commitment to be expected to want to dance not one
but 3 dances with a beginner. And, for everybody, it cuts the
opportunities to switch partners to 1/3 of what they would be in any
other form of dance. That can be way too long a time standing out and
not dancing, if the genders are imbalanced.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:19:49 -0800
From: Robert Dodier <robert_dodier@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Attracting and keeping the men
Hey gang,
There have been lots of interesting comments about
how to get men to join tango and keep with it.
Let me chime in with my 2 cents.
I think the comments I've heard most often from
other men who dropped out of the tango scene are
along the lines of "It was too hard" or "People
weren't nice to me".
I don't think a teacher can speed up the learning
process too much -- whatever method you use, it's
going to be years before you're really good. But
a teacher can make it enjoyable from the start, so
that students immediately get positive feedback,
instead of having to wait and wait for it.
So I'd like to encourage teachers to focus on simple
stuff that their students can dance competently
right away -- I can tell you that a man is not
having a good time if he feels like a moron.
Just as important, teachers ought to set the tone
among their students that they don't need to be
picky or hard to please with their partners. This
goes for both men and women. I don't much care
if a man had to be really proficient just to get a
dance in BA in 1930 -- we're living in a different
world, so let's adjust our attitudes accordingly.
For what it's worth,
Robert "lazy and stubborn" Dodier
