1818 On languages and tango
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:47:56 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: On languages and tango
Dani says:
"English has degraded so much that English to many countries around the
world is almost another language from the correct and original form of
English (ie that from England UK). What we hear due to the American
Entertainment industry and media is an adaptation and almost hybrid form
of English which can, in some ways, only to some be called 'American'."
English the same as tango has been evolving. This evolution of the English
language started long ago; its origins which can be traced to the arrival
of Germanic tribes to the British isles during the 5th Century AD.
(Angles-Saxons-Jutes). The inhabitants previously spoke a Celtic language
which was displaced to Wales- Cornwall and Scotland, some groups took it to
Bretagne in Northern France. The Normans brought French and the Romans and
Irish missionaries brought Latin. The language changed enormously, acquired
and extensive vocabulary(mostly Latin), changed the Germanic grammar .
Well seen in the formation of plurals for instance. House-Housen, Shoe -
shoen became houses, shoes. There are very few words that kept the Germanic
plural such as children, feet, teeth, oxen, men. These plurals were taken
from French.
The language evolves in different places in different ways. One form is not
more accurate or pure than another. The English used in the USA is as valid
as the one used in England. The same as the Castilian of Spain is as valid
as the one spoken in Argentina. This is now recognized by the Royal Spanish
Accademy of Letters.
Similarly we could say that tango in the neighborhood of Villa Urquiza is as
valid as the one danced downtown or in any other part of the city or the
world. One form is not superior to another. They are different variations of
the same root.
Who is to say that the English of London is better than that of Houston? or
the Castilian of Madrid better than that of Buenos Aires?
Despite of this discussion English is the second most spoken language in the
world after Mandarin (Chinese). It is listed as the official or co-official
language of 45 countries. 27 for French, 20 for Spanish and 17 for Arabic.
It is the language of science, aviation, computing, diplomacy and tourism.
Charles the V, emperor of Spain spoke many languages and he said:
Italian is so romantic that it is good to speak to the women.
French is so vivacious that it is good to speak to your friends.
German is so harsh that it is good to speak to your enemies.
Spanish is so majestic that it is good to speak to God.
English is so stupid that it is good to speak to the birds.
Pushkin, the Russian writer added that it was a pity that the emperor did
not know Russian otherwise he would have said : Russian is good to speak to
all of them together.
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:28:54 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (15 % tango content)
> Dani says:
>
> "English has degraded so much that English to many countries around the
> world is almost another language from the correct and original form of
> English (ie that from England UK).
Sergio wrote:
> English the same as tango has been evolving. ... One form is not
> more accurate or pure than another. The English used in the USA is as
valid
> as the one used in England. >
> Who is to say that the English of London is better than that of Houston?
or
> the Castilian of Madrid better than that of Buenos Aires?
>
As Sergio pointed out to Dani, there are several ways to look at
development. There is the conservative view, that any kind of development
can only mean the detrimental alteration of the orignal, true and only
"correct" form. And there is the other view, which already Heraclid held,
that "you cannot step into the same river twice".
In German we have a book, that lists all the "correct" German words and
forms, and their spelling. Interestingly, it is reviewed and published anew
every year. This time, when I returned to Germany, I noticed that I can no
longer read the politics page in the newspaper without help. I am one of
those outdated imbeciles, who thinks, a "Persilschein" has something to do
with laundry soap. (Can somebody please help me out here , I was too
embarrassed to ask my neighbour on the airplane, so I did not have a clue
what the parlamentarians in that article were talking about)
I wonder if one day we will have a tango archive, where you can look up all
the steps that were considered right and proper in the tango world at any
given age. The nice thing I discovered is, that if I travel to another
country where I do not know anybody, and hardly speak the language, we still
have a common language available to us when we dance together, and can
communicate very well on that level. Tango is international, and quite
similar everywhere, with a few local nuances
Still searching for more of the true (correct and original) tango ; )
Astrid
P.S.
In my Spanish course in Spain, I was always given grammar handouts, that
listed the Spanish conjugation along with the "vos" forms for Argentina etc.
as a footnote. None of that scandalized attitude of some Spanish teacher I
met elsewhere who told me:"Did you know they say 'vos' in Argentina?"
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:48:55 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (15 % tango content)
Of course, languages change over time. The question is "Do they improve?". If
the change produces a wider range of clearly distinguished meanings of words,
then it is fair to call that change a "development". If what the change
serves to do is to diminish the fine distinctions between words, then we should
call it not a development, but a "regress". Change can be for better or for
worse. We should applaud only that which is for the better.
In English, my own pet hate is the use of the word "disinterested" when the
user really means "uninterested". My objection stems from the fact that the
concept of "disinterested" is an important one (for democracy as well as for
linguistics), and to use it to mean "uninterested" implies that the user of the
word, and probably many readers, lose that important concept.
Language was developed as a vehicle to convey information. Well used, it does
that superbly. When it is used as a vehicle to convey feelings, or muscle
memory, or other sensations (as it sometimes does in the discussion of Tango),
then it is a poor substitute for dancing. For face-to-face teaching, on the
other hand, an ounce of clear explanation is worth a pound of mindless practice.
Laurie
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:24:05 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (3.14159 % tango content)
I've seen workshops where a translator from Spanish to English was necessary.
There, that's related to Tango. Thank goodness for the language of dance.
I've had these, possibly incorrect, assumptions about English.
* Its a hard language to learn as a second language?
* Spanish is much easier, regular verbs, easier grammar?
* German is way hard, due to grammar.
* French? rarerly pronounces the way it looks/spells.
Can anyone help me out here? Toss in Russian, Finish, Polish, ???
I've got some good Polish & Russian friends, I was stopped cold by the alphabet ;o)
Plus they are multi-lingual & vey well-educated...
R
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:07:51 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (>3.14159 % tango content)
Throw in Chinese, Korean, Japanese and some of the other Asian and Eurasian languages, and we are glad that tango is more universal than English.
T.C.
Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>I've seen workshops where a translator from Spanish to English was necessary.
>There, that's related to Tango. Thank goodness for the language of dance.
>I've had these, possibly incorrect, assumptions about English.
>
>* Its a hard language to learn as a second language?
>* Spanish is much easier, regular verbs, easier grammar?
>* German is way hard, due to grammar.
>* French? rarerly pronounces the way it looks/spells.
>
>Can anyone help me out here? Toss in Russian, Finish, Polish, ???
>I've got some good Polish & Russian friends, I was stopped cold by the alphabet ;o)
>Plus they are multi-lingual & vey well-educated...
>R
>
Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial today!
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:37:01 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (33 1/3 % tango content)
Eurasian languages? hmmmm, I had some Vietnamese friends & had a heck of a time with the tonal nature of the language. I don't know Chinese or Japanese or Korean or ?? have that in common? & it always amazes me when people question the intelligence, insight or wisdom of small children. Which is a good question, what's a great age to begin Tango? Seems like the younger the better, no? Anyone have any experiences or stories?
I started when I was 40, gack ;o) Its my bday today, off to celebrate with the uptight, frozen-chosen, Scandinavian dancers! Of which I am one, of course, 3/4 Swedish & ~15% Finnish...
Rick
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:00:30 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (>3.14159 % tango content)
Tango may be more widely danced than Mandarin or English is spoken, but
let's recognize that Tango's coverage is quite spotty.
Given the ability to communicate through tango, It seems amazing that
dancing tango could taken a back seat to speaking additional languages.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:12:22 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (>3.14159 % tango content)
>
> Given the ability to communicate through tango, It seems amazing that
> dancing tango could taken a back seat to speaking additional languages.
>
> --Steve (de Tejas)
>
Learning to speak additional languages to get around during a holiday in
another country is much easier,and takes less time than learning to tango,
Steve!
In Germany we have all these books for travellers: "Spanish in 30 days",
"Italian in 30 days", "French in..". Now they even have a CDRom,that teaches
you survival Spanish in a few hours.
There is no such thing as "survival tango in 30 days".
Astrid ; )
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:58:25 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (>3.14159 % tango content)
>Learning to speak additional languages to get around during a
>holiday in another country is much easier
Learning to dance tango makes it easier to get around the dance floor at a
milonga.
>There is no such thing as "survival tango in 30 days".
There is Jeff Allen's book, Quickstart to Tango. And of course, Fabian
Salas has a video series that is called Learn to Tango in 10 Easy Lessons
(3 volumes on tape or DVD).
;-) ;-) ;-)
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:23:27 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (>3.14159 % tango content)
> >There is no such thing as "survival tango in 30 days".
>
> There is Jeff Allen's book, Quickstart to Tango. And of course, Fabian
> Salas has a video series that is called Learn to Tango in 10 Easy Lessons
> (3 volumes on tape or DVD).
>
> ;-) ;-) ;-)
>
> --Steve (de Tejas)
>
You forgot to mention Larry de LA's (Carroll) tango in 10 lessons, to learn
via the internet . The one that he complained that ungrateful us never
really thanked him for.! It even contained a leg wrap or Carezza (?) in the
8th lesson !
; ) ; )
AStrid
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:57:03 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (exactly 1.4142135 % tango content)
Ok, here's a can of worms no one has to open... ;o)
Is the 10 lesson, 30 day survival guide for followers, easier
than the guide for leaders?
PS: Not serious at all!
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:11:14 -0400
From: white95r <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango
> There is no such thing as "survival tango in 30 days".
Some folks would have you believe that they can teach you to dance Tango in
less time than that........
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:22:33 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango (>3.14159 % tango content)
On 24 Sep 2003 at 1:23, astrid wrote:
> You forgot to mention Larry de LA's (Carroll) tango in 10 lessons, to
> learn via the internet . The one that he complained that ungrateful us
> never really thanked him for.!
A friend of mine from germany once translated at into german (he's
living in the former eastern (=comunism) part of germany where a
certain age group did not learn english but russian). Before
translating it he inquired with LdLA whether translating would be
o.k.: LdLA replied that he first had to check with his lawyer ... and
as far as I know never further went into it. A he did not hear
anything about it anymore this friend of mine translated it anyway
(for personal use!) but also send the translation to LdLA allowing
him to do with it what he wanted to (read: put it online for free)
... the translation neither ever made it to LdLA's website nor that
friend of mine got any reply. :-(
Can't remember any Christo-legs (wrapped) in the lesson ... but this
may be due to my limited knowledge of the english idiom. ;-)
> >There is no such thing as "survival tango in 30 days".
Of course not ... it's a life long process! ;-)))
Every time I go out dancing it's another new experience ... and I am
quite grateful for that. ;-)
Christian [hoping to experience even more in Portland soon :-)]
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:41:38 -0700
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
Subject: Re: On languages and tango
Don't forget Larry de LA's 0 to Tango in 60 seconds!!:)
https://home.att.net/~larrydla/sixty_second_tango.html
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:58:25 -0500, Stephen Brown
<Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote:
>>Learning to speak additional languages to get around during a
>>holiday in another country is much easier
>
>Learning to dance tango makes it easier to get around the dance floor at a
>milonga.
>
>>There is no such thing as "survival tango in 30 days".
>
>There is Jeff Allen's book, Quickstart to Tango. And of course, Fabian
>Salas has a video series that is called Learn to Tango in 10 Easy Lessons
>(3 volumes on tape or DVD).
>
>;-) ;-) ;-)
>
>--Steve (de Tejas)
