267 Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:56:33 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Learning Curves for Men and Women.
It may be unfair, but women seem to pick up tango much faster than men.
Yet it is the man who sets the style, energy, dynamic, passion, musicality.
And, the women are dependent on having guys who can provide that.
I notice this in particular as our community improves.
A woman with reasonable skill, who learns intuitively can jump from
beginner to adv-intermediate in 9 months. (She usually declines from
month 4-6 as she starts to pick up patterns from the not-so-good
guys, but months 7-9 get her back on track.)
MAYBE the best guys can achieve some kind of intermediate status in a
year, but it takes them another year to gain confidence and
musicality. (Often they get stuck that second year in a similar
bad-habit-trap as the woman, usually because they decide fancy
figures are important).
The other unfair thing I notice is that a really good guy can take a
woman who is pretty new (let's say adv-beginner) and make her look
and feel like she's as good as the best dancer in the room.
Although an advanced woman can make an INTERMEDIATE guy feel like he
is really a king (and she's the doggone queen), she can't do the same
thing for a beginner guy.
These observations are certainly true in close embrace; in salon
style, the technical requirements of the turn make it more difficult
for both men and women. (Drop the turn, do simple ochos and they
still may fit).
So at a dance you have the men running around asking women of all
levels to dance, but you have quite a few women (both advanced AND
intermediate) waiting for the better men to give them a dance. You
don't see so many advanced women running around trying to give good
dances to the intermediate guys. (I'm not accusing them of being
snobby; I'm just observing the social phenomenon).
These issues are relevant for building tango communities.
One of my conclusions has been that I should teach a simpler,
rhythmic close-embrace tango with the goal of getting the guys
skillful at musicality and confidence sooner than if they were
working on technique or fancy figures.
I figure, most 35 or 50 year old dancers are not going to be
performing on stage, but they are very likely to go to a social
dance, with the goal of dancing confidently, if not finding a little
romance.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:21:06 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
> It may be unfair, but women seem to pick up tango much faster than men.
>
> Yet it is the man who sets the style, energy, dynamic, passion,
musicality.
>
> And, the women are dependent on having guys who can provide that.
Well, Tom, and THAT can be very "unfair" on the women. Because we have to
wait for the men to catch up with us (and some never will), and cannot
really unfold all the beauty of our dance, unless we find a man who gives us
a chance to do that. Probability rate of that: see above.
Why do women pick up tango so much faster ?
Of course, in many women's life there has been a tradition of dance
education from childhood, which the men missed, because it is not considered
a male hobby to learn ballet, folk dance etc.
The other thing is, that we only have to learn our own steps. And not even
really that, just the technique of stepping cleanly in several directions,
pivotting, and the right posture to pick up the lead is enough.
The man has to learn his and her steps, plus remember combinations etc.
I think, teaching only musicality and "confidence" with the technique having
lesser priority does not work very well, even in "close embrace". He has to
know HOW to embrace. I have met many, many men, who do not, even after a
couple of years. The HOW is strongly dependent on posture and balance, and
those belong into the technique area, isn't it ? It is not like only stage
dancers depend on these elements as the foundation of the dance, right ?
P.S.
I saw Pocho dancing tango with two brooms on a CITA 2000 video, and those
brooms looked really graceful...
>
>
> I notice this in particular as our community improves.
>
> A woman with reasonable skill, who learns intuitively can jump from
> beginner to adv-intermediate in 9 months. (She usually declines from
> month 4-6 as she starts to pick up patterns from the not-so-good
> guys, but months 7-9 get her back on track.)
>
> MAYBE the best guys can achieve some kind of intermediate status in a
> year, but it takes them another year to gain confidence and
> musicality. (Often they get stuck that second year in a similar
> bad-habit-trap as the woman, usually because they decide fancy
> figures are important).
>
>
> The other unfair thing I notice is that a really good guy can take a
> woman who is pretty new (let's say adv-beginner) and make her look
> and feel like she's as good as the best dancer in the room.
>
> Although an advanced woman can make an INTERMEDIATE guy feel like he
> is really a king (and she's the doggone queen), she can't do the same
> thing for a beginner guy.
>
> These observations are certainly true in close embrace; in salon
> style, the technical requirements of the turn make it more difficult
> for both men and women. (Drop the turn, do simple ochos and they
> still may fit).
>
>
> So at a dance you have the men running around asking women of all
> levels to dance, but you have quite a few women (both advanced AND
> intermediate) waiting for the better men to give them a dance. You
> don't see so many advanced women running around trying to give good
> dances to the intermediate guys. (I'm not accusing them of being
> snobby; I'm just observing the social phenomenon).
>
>
> These issues are relevant for building tango communities.
>
> One of my conclusions has been that I should teach a simpler,
> rhythmic close-embrace tango with the goal of getting the guys
> skillful at musicality and confidence sooner than if they were
> working on technique or fancy figures.
>
> I figure, most 35 or 50 year old dancers are not going to be
> performing on stage, but they are very likely to go to a social
> dance, with the goal of dancing confidently, if not finding a little
> romance.
> --
> Tom Stermitz
> 2612 Clermont St
> Denver, CO 80207
> home: 303-388-2560
> cell: 303-725-5963
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:50:00 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
astrid wrote:
> I saw Pocho dancing tango with two brooms on a CITA 2000 video, and those
> brooms looked really graceful...
>
Was that he who said: "give me a broom anyday" ? ;-)
rajan.
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:22:48 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>[W]omen seem to pick up tango much faster than men.
From my observations, I agree with Tom up to the intermediate level,
particularly in the smooth execution of steps. Women seem to go from
beginner to intermediate faster than men. After that, I think the learning
curves can be about equal. Once tango dancers have reached the
intermediate level, reaching the advanced level seems to require about the
same amount of effort from women as the men.
Interestingly, I have observed that the lead that women establish going to
beginner to intermediate seems to create a sense of confidence or
complacency in some women that seems to prevent them from putting in as
much effort to reach the advanced levels. Maybe they do not want to get
too far ahead of their potential dance partners who as Tom wrote:
>set the style, energy, dynamic, passion, musicality.
Because as Astrid wrote, the women
>have to wait for the men to catch up with [them]
>(and some never will), and cannot really unfold all
>the beauty of [their] dance, unless we find a man
>who gives us a chance to do that.
Tom also wrote:
>One of my conclusions has been that I should teach a simpler,
>rhythmic close-embrace tango with the goal of getting the guys
>skillful at musicality and confidence sooner than if they were
>working on technique or fancy figures.
I cannot completely agree... One of the areas in which men develop more
slowly is technique. I do not see how a man can convey his sense of
style, energy, dynamic, passion, or musicality to his partner without good
technique. I do not think confidence is a very good substitute.
Unfortunately, it seems as though technique is among the most neglected and
poorly taught aspects of the men's skills in tango. Maybe a man can get
the impression he is learning tango more quickly if the instructor ignores
technique, but it can be a false short cut for many. Every bad habit
developed through incomplete or poor instruction requires much more effort
to unlearn than would have required to learn properly in the first place.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:51:28 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Hi all,
The fact that the list has been fairly quiet lately means
you're all spending time at practicas, right? Good!
Tom Stermitz wrote:
> These issues are relevant for building tango communities.
>
> One of my conclusions has been that I should teach a simpler,
> rhythmic close-embrace tango with the goal of getting the guys
> skillful at musicality and confidence sooner than if they were
> working on technique or fancy figures.
Confidence is important! I feel that leaders' confidence is mostly
gained by meeting their partner's expectations and that could (maybe
even 'should') be difficult without acceptable technique. ...and then
there's the question of 'musicality'. With some orchestras, one has
little option but to follow the rhythmic structure. I think these are
Tom's favorites. And a very good place to start. But there are
beginners whose natural (mis)sense of rhythm makes fast music more
frustrating for starters. Also, in a broader sense, musicality has so
many layers. At some point (probably when the slower tangos are
played), dancing simple rhythm is going to bore the followers. Anything
that limits the follower's enjoyment will challenge a leaders'
confidence (if the leader is not TOTALLY self-absorbed). [My favorite
partners never fake enjoyment! ;-) ]
The issues of confidence-building seem circular. I think it's good that
they follow us wherever we dance. Keep attending that practica!
Best regards,
Frank - Minneapolis
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:51:09 -0500
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
I wish to join in the discussion.
I agree with Astrid that women may progress faster due to earlier exposure
to music and dance. But I wish to explore some other factors:
Exposure is not gender based, but is the result of individual, family or
cultural upbringing. For example, most Latin male can pick up faster
because many of them can recognize the beats and move to the beats, as
dancing is their way of life; most Asian male exposed to early years of
ballroom dancing, they progress faster too.
On the other hand, exposure must be accompanied by willingness to learn.
There may be some who are born to the cultural heritage but not willing to
learn.
How many of us, regardless of gender, are willing to take the time to learn
the music beyond the dancing hours, analyzing the music, let alone the
lyrics? Chances are, those are doing it are the people who are progressing
fast and stay "fit" in tango dancing.
About the issue stagnancy of progress, may I bring forth another
possibility, which Tom alluded "if not finding a little romance"-- the
social factor. Although there are some who dance for the sake of dancing,
there are many, for socializing. This is particularly obvious for the male
dancers. As most communities have more female than male, once the male
(interested in socializing) reaches the level of minimum competence of tango
communication, there is less motivation for him to progress as there are
many ladies to choose from.
Now that I begin to venture from dancing the follower s to the lead s part,
I begin to sympathize with the leads the male; their job is more difficult
because they have to be active rather than passive. Besides "setting the
style, dynamics, passion, musicality", they have to maneuver among the floor
crowd and adjust to the level of the follower. (...please, let s not argue
who adjusts whose level..) Even for a male (lead) and female (follower)
with the same degree of cultural background and personal endeavour, no doubt
the male needs extra time and effort.
On the issue of techniques and confidence, I tend to tilt my scale towards
Tom.
Our ability to learn, regardless of the subject matter, is influenced by our
psychological reaction. Even a child needs to have confidence in order to
learn to stand up, why not adults? Once the lead has the confidence that he
can dance a bit, that is the **critical** moment for a successful teacher to
introduce more techniques. It is nothing worst than being overwhelmed by
ship-loads of techniques given by a teacher who striped us of our
confidence. I have witnessed many male students leaving the class that way.
But why Tom raised the issue about fair or unfair to begin with? We each
have our roles; measuring fairness is like arguing if female should to have
the ability to bear children. May be we should concentrate our energy in
encouraging the (male)leads to excel, so that we could have a healthier
tango community and its growth thereof.
Humbly,
Bibi
>It may be unfair, but women seem to pick up tango much faster than men.
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:54:18 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
-----Original Message-----
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:44:46 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
> if the followers get better, they may only want to dance with those
> who are better than themselves -- in the process finding ways to
> fend off those who are less skilled than themselves...thus lowering the
leader's
> confidence and even adversely affecting learning
Oh, you poor men !
And you really believe, Rajan, that, whatever they would really like to
do, in a practica where there is the average 1,5 or 2 to 1 ratio of females
to males, all those lower intermediate to advanced women (say, about a dozen
or so) are ready to sit and watch, until one of those 2 or 3 males who
really put enough energy into learning to dance, who not just want to
socialise, who are not into cute beginners, and who really know how to lead
with (almost) perfection will ask them to dance ?
You've got to be joking !
Astrid
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:50:58 -0700
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
I can take one of my women friends who have danced Swing or CW or Ballroom &
have them up & dancing Tango in an evening, easy. No problem. & they'll be
really good at it within a month w/o any formal lessons. I mean Tango is
totally led & there is, what, 4 or 5 fundamental ideas: walking (backwards a
lot!), ochos, grapevine in a circle & a cross. The guys have a much tougher
row to hoe...
Rick Anderson
Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:32:31 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
>Tom also wrote:
>
>>One of my conclusions has been that I should teach a simpler,
>>rhythmic close-embrace tango with the goal of getting the guys
>>skillful at musicality and confidence sooner than if they were
>>working on technique or fancy figures.
>
>I cannot completely agree... One of the areas in which men develop more
>slowly is technique. I do not see how a man can convey his sense of
>style, energy, dynamic, passion, or musicality to his partner without good
>technique. I do not think confidence is a very good substitute.
>
>Unfortunately, it seems as though technique is among the most neglected and
>poorly taught aspects of the men's skills in tango. Maybe a man can get
>the impression he is learning tango more quickly if the instructor ignores
>technique, but it can be a false short cut for many. Every bad habit
>developed through incomplete or poor instruction requires much more effort
>to unlearn than would have required to learn properly in the first place.
RHYTHMIC ORCHESTRAS
First I have to correct Frank Williams comment that I probably prefer
the rhythmic orchestras. While I really do like of D'Arienzo and
Tanturi/Castillo, my favorite orchestra is Miguel Calo. Now there's
tango with BALLS. Yes, I find more musicality in the close-embrace
than in salon, but I absolutely love the passion and dynamics of
Pugliese, the dense, chewiness of DiSarli and the bubbly, pink
champagne of Fresedo.
TECHNIQUE
We're all in favor of technique; but technique is a word that means
whatever the user wants it to mean.
Like everything in tango there are many layers to understanding technique.
I have watched good dancers teach so much serious and "correct"
technique to beginners, that the guys went too deep into their heads
none of them came out. In one case it took 8 weeks to get 35 of 40 to
quit, and those five still alive had all started with me before the
master teacher.
The issue isn't to eliminate technique, but to choose the appropriate
technique for a beginner class so that they succeed down the road.
In my case, that has meant teaching rhythm, connection and STEPPING
ON THE BEAT, and a simpler vocabulary that works for social, close
embrace tango.
In Daniel Trenner's case it means removing the concern for proper
posture, the tango pose (embrace), and especially the furrowed brow
of intensity.
What is most fascinating about his approach, and a huge departure
from what most tango teachers do, is that Daniel also removes the
necessity for the leader to manage both his footsteps and the
follower's footsteps at the same time. This ability to do two things
at once may be second nature to experienced tango leaders, but it is
damned difficult at first.
- Instead, the follower is asked to walk confidently, with gusto,
on the beat, using generous strides.
- The leader is asked simply to manage the follower's movements in space:
walks, ochos, the cross and grapevines. THE LEADER"S FOOTSTEPS ARE
IRRELEVANT.
The consequence is the leaders all succeed at leading and improvising
VERY complex figures built out of the follower's walk.
True, they're sloppy and it doesn't yet look like tango, but then
that is true of most tango students at the 4-week mark. The advantage
is that they have already knocked off one layer of tango and they're
ready for the next.
Adding the posture is pretty easy, the embrace a bit more difficult.
The connection is not hard to introduce with some easy exercises.
Rhythm...just work with double time steps to D'Arienzo and some
milonga tras pie.
The most interesting however, is that now that they have decent
navigation and muscle memory on leading the follower, it is really
easy to add the layer of "synchronizing of leader's footsteps to the
follower".
In other words the difficult part of tango for the leader is doing
two things at once. Daniel has a strategy that splits up this
learning process, first training the leader's muscle memory in
"managing the follower in space" only later adding the layer of
"doing the leader's accompaniment."
I'm writing this, because I have now watched several generations of
tango students go through this methodology and it has worked really
well.
WALKING
One critical technique for beginners is the concept of committing
themselves to changing weight at the beat (also known as walking!).
The issue is both stupidly simple, yet very subtle. If the follower
takes bold strides, and lands clearly on the beat, then it is
possible for a good leader to lead her through almost anything.
Later on we can teach proper ochos, and work on the difficult
salon-style turn, but let's start with getting two people able to
walk about the room together... something some 1 year tango dancers
have difficulty with.
This gets back to my initial point, namely that you need to think of
which techniques are appropriate at which level or in which
circumstances.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:56:23 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
> Adding the posture is pretty easy, the embrace a bit more difficult.
>
> The connection is not hard to introduce with some easy exercises.
>
The damned thing about email is that we cannot see each other. And "one look
is better than a thousand words", the Japanese say.
The other trouble is, that we really seem to be speaking several different
languages here. What beats me completely in my understanding of terms, is:
how can the posture, the embrace and the connection be three different
things, that can all be learned separately, and at varying degrees of
difficulty or, in Tom's opinion, easiness ?
"The posture is pretty easy"- I have not seen Tom's students, but over here
it takes people at least a year, unless they have done either years of
ballet (and then they have to learn not to bend over backwards), or ballroom
dance (then they still have to learn the lean) or martial arts (pretty good
start). It takes the body already several months just to develop the muscles
around the ankles to hold the lean, not even speaking about the chest and
the spine yet.
The embrace and connection happen almost naturally, if you put two people
with the right posture and the right walk together. Ah, the walk !
"Stepping on the beat, taking bold strides". If that was all that is to it !
From a dancer who has gone through months and months of drill on that, and
appreciated it.
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:50:42 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
astrid wrote:
> who are not into cute beginners,...
>
I think this could be a matter of perception of those
who are sittting around. Sergio also said one more
thing that it really helps an intermediate leader to be
able to lead a bigginer.
Naturally, it would would make more sense for him
to try to dance with someone who is enthusiastic to
learn rather than those who will find the ceiling more
interesting to observe were he to go near them.
rajan.
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:23:20 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Astrid wrote:
>What beats me completely in my understanding of terms, is:
>how can the posture, the embrace and the connection be three different
>things, that can all be learned separately, and at varying degrees of
>difficulty or, in Tom's opinion, easiness ?
I cannot help but agree.... It is difficult for me to imagine posture,
embrace and connection separated from each other or technique. In the
martial arts, they talk about the necessity of eating the bitterness to
achieve mastery. I think tango shares this necessity.
I also think an instructor can emphasize one aspect of the dance over
others in an attempt to convey what the instructor considers the essence of
the dance. Some might emphasize technique, others might emphasize spatial
control. Incomplete teaching that is well conceived may encourage
beginners, particularly if it gives them confidence that they can learn the
dance and insight into its deeper expression. But if it becomes a
shortcut, designed to protect the students from the bitterness, it is
likely to lead the students in directions that prove to be dead ends. If
the students do not find their way out of the dead ends, they will remain
superficial dancers.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:01:44 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
>Astrid wrote:
>
>>What beats me completely in my understanding of terms, is:
>>how can the posture, the embrace and the connection be three different
>>things, that can all be learned separately, and at varying degrees of
>>difficulty or, in Tom's opinion, easiness ?
>
>I cannot help but agree.... It is difficult for me to imagine posture,
>embrace and connection separated from each other or technique. In the
>martial arts, they talk about the necessity of eating the bitterness to
>achieve mastery. I think tango shares this necessity.
I disagree that tango as a social dance has to be so difficult, let
alone a dish of bitterness.
So what if a good leader can train up a talented follower in a few lessons!
How does that help your community grow as a whole?
Communities grow ONLY as fast as you develop good leaders, or perhaps
women would be satisfied with a few more merely decent leaders.
Look at your own community. ARE THE LEADERS LEARNING HOW TO DANCE OR
ARE THEY QUITTING IN FRUSTRATION? or perhaps worse, DOING A LOT OF
WACKY UNPLEASANT THINGS.
I think a lot of teachers are lazy in the sense that they use the
same methodology they learned with and don't evaluate and change as
they observe different teachers. It is very easy to simply teach the
external things of tango (do this series of steps, this gancho, this
posture).
Posture, Embrace Connection.
One reason you can easily separate those three terms is to notice
that different styles of tango have quite varied expressions of each
one. If you claim a particular set of technique (defined let's say by
posture, embrace and connection) is essential for a beginner, then
you are kind of saying THIS technique is the "correct" one, meaning
the others are "wrong". I prefer to try to decide which aspects of
technique are the core ones, and consider the other ones "merely"
stylistic:
For example:
- The Embrace may be a big, rigid circle of the arms, a completely soft
left arm like some Chicho students, or a warm hug.
- The Connection can be a balance between the axes of the two dancers,
a firm grip in the arms or a total solar-plexus to tummy contact.
- The Posture might be perfectly vertical, slightly leaning forward,
leaning forward a lot, or even backward for very fast turns that
require centrifugal force.
A couple examples of core or fundamental techniques are "be more or
less vertical on your own balance" and "step on the beat with your
whole weight". These both suit milonguero and Gustavo styles, so the
different look and feel of those different dances has to be
stylistic, not fundamental.
Another reason to separate them is that people learn in stages.
My main point was to point out that beginners have a lot of
difficulty mastering more than one thing at a time, and excess
insistence in the first series of classes on technique, and
specifically the demand to Look like "correct" tango, will drive
people away.
I'm not advocating non "authentic" tango (however you want to define
it), rather that the good teacher knows which order to present
material so that the learning process as a whole is speeded up. It
isn't so obvious if you are only a few years into your tango dancing,
which things help or hurt this process, but you do want them end up
looking and feeling like "authentic" tango.
I am also claiming that I have seen guys get to the "end" (meaning
competent intermediate) much, much faster with some teachers than
with others, and I'm on a quest to figure out what things make the
most difference.
Tell me it isn't true in your community!
I understand the value of learning technique; the turn with sacadas
is very easy with good technique, but very difficult (or at least
very sloppy & ugly) without technique. But even here, you have to
know which aspects of technique are the key ones...and it is style
dependent.
>I also think an instructor can emphasize one aspect of the dance over
>others in an attempt to convey what the instructor considers the essence of
>the dance. Some might emphasize technique, others might emphasize spatial
>control. Incomplete teaching that is well conceived may encourage
>beginners, particularly if it gives them confidence that they can learn the
>dance and insight into its deeper expression. But if it becomes a
>shortcut, designed to protect the students from the bitterness, it is
>likely to lead the students in directions that prove to be dead ends. If
>the students do not find their way out of the dead ends, they will remain
>superficial dancers.
This is mor like what I'm saying.
All instructors emphasize certain aspects over another.
I have seen very little discussion of the pedagogy of tango instruction.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:42:24 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
> I disagree that tango as a social dance has to be so difficult, let
> alone a dish of bitterness.
> So what if a good leader can train up a talented follower in a few
lessons!
> How does that help your community grow as a whole?
> Communities grow ONLY as fast as you develop good leaders, or perhaps
> women would be satisfied with a few more merely decent leaders.
> Look at your own community. ARE THE LEADERS LEARNING HOW TO DANCE OR
> ARE THEY QUITTING IN FRUSTRATION?
I am getting a little tired of this discussion, if some of what I or Stephen
or others say, is simply ignored, overlooked, or misunderstood with a
purpose, one might think. Tom, you are contradicting yourself. What you are
saying, is: so what if a good leader can train a talented follower in a few
lessons, what the community needs is a teacher like Tom, who can train
leaders, talented or not, in a few lessons, or within a couple of months.
After all what women want, is good leaders.
Yes, what women want is good leaders alright, and that does not mean some
guys with half baked knowledge, who regard careful training as troublesome
and superfluous, and think, technique is something only show dancers really
need, and for social dance happy-go-lucky is enough.
> I have seen very little discussion of the pedagogy of tango instruction.
Ok, I'll give you an exemple of pedagogy (or student's attitude):
I have a friend, who loves showy moves. So he spent a lot of time and money
on choreography lessons, and after a year (classes, practicas, and then
those special lessons for a while) gave a little performance with his wife.
When I asked him, what steps he used in his show, he tried to lead me
through his routine. Some of it worked, some was accompanied by running
commentary: "Now I want you to walk to the left, now I mean for you to lift
your leg, now we have to do this turn, umm, let me see, you go over there
and I, uh..." The whole thing had worked only because his partner had
memorised the steps, he did not really know how to lead half of them.
Now I met him again, and he told me happily: "We are almost finished with
our course on the next piece. Now all we have to do is take a few more
lessons to learn the technique how to do it exactly."
I ask you, what is the point of this ? Learning a lot of steps without
knowing how to lead them? Now you will ask, what does that have to do with
me ? I teach social dance, not stage tango ? A lot, is my answer. In stage
tango just as much as in social dance it does not help to take a short cut,
skip the essential things, that make up the "bitter" (or hard) part of
learning, because for one thing, if you think,:
>" --. It is very easy to simply teach the
external things of tango (do this series of steps, this gancho, this
posture)."
you are wrong, the posture is a thing that cannot be achieved by simply
following the instructions- "Do this posture", the posture needs to
developped from the inside of the body, it has to be built up one by one,
and be realised one by one by the student. So does the walk.
And if some guys have chosen the easy way, and learned it in some "tango in
three easy months" crash course, no matter how confident the men are, the
women can tell, because the connection is haphazard, the posture is without
tone, and the lead fails as soon as it gets a little more complicated. The
technique is not something one can leave until later, to add a few finishing
touches "how to do it EXACTLY", those "details" are the fundamentals of the
whole thing.
Yes, women want good leaders. That means those who mastered the essentials,
not those who only think they can dance. Yes, a few more merely decent
leaders would be nice, but not, if they are prepared to remain merely decent
forever.
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:26:19 -0600
From: "Bruno E. Romero" <romerob@CADVISION.COM>
Subject: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
I wonder if the great tango dancers' dance of the 1920's , 30's, 40's had to
worry so much about having the right posture, technique, embrace in the way
and level we discuss it nowdays. I had read that the tango dance of those
days fostered great dancers as people sought the tango dance as an outlet to
their worries. As tango became a way of life dancers competed for attention
and looking for a way to express their individuality. It seems that their
individuality rather than their mastering of dance "standards" of those
times made those dancers well known and / or famous. I have read in this
list that the famous dancers like the "Cachafaz" was famous becuase of his
quick improvisational skills and particular way to lead and impress the
rhythm in his dance and to his dance partner. Others were known because they
were the best able to interpret music from orchestras of those times. I
probably side with Cacho Dante when he says "... that tango is not a dance
to demonstrate ability but rather interpretation of feeling and it is not
just moving your feet and posturing" and I will add like stage dancers would
like us to believe.
Bruno
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:51:04 +1300
From: Bob Ramsey-Turner <bob.ramsey-turner@QUICKSILVER.NET.NZ>
Subject: Learning Curves for Men and Women
This is one of the most balanced debates I've watched on this listing for
some time.
Of course, none of you are entirely right or entirely wrong!
However I will throw my little in for dissection.
Having got to a reasonable level of Tango after nearly 3 years of learning,
I find that confidence is the hub of the argument, if you believe you can do
it there's a real good chance you can. If you see yourself in your minds
eye, as a good dancer or conversely a clunker then you are almost certainly
correct.
Responding to Astrid's comment regarding 2 to 1 ratio of Ladies to Men.
Here in Auckland NZ, last night I went to a weekly class to yet again take
my only steps, on the way out. The ratio was around 3 to 1 of Men to Ladies.
So Astrid if its a little action your looking for, could we tempt you and a
few of your contemporaries in Tokyo to try a little Tango in Auckland
Kind regards
Bob Ramsey-Turner
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:23:16 -0400
From: Ba Tango <rhink2@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Hola All,
Rick say:
>I can take one of my women friends...[and] have them up & dancing Tango
>in an evening.
I, with all due respect, doubt that. First of all, A. tango is perhaps
the most technically demanding and difficult partner around. This state-
ment holds for both leaders and followers. If a follower does not have
good technique, there are about 10,000 things that cannot be led. One
reason is that the spaces created by the follower that the leader needs
will not open up when and where they're supposed to. So sure, one may be
able to slog through a few simple figures on a few minutes of instruction,
but I don't consider that dancing tango. Even Henry Higgins needed more
than one evening to pass Eliza Doolittle off as aristocracy at the ball.
Daniel Trenner once said that at the beginning levels followers have an
easier time; at advanced levels leaders find it easier. I believe that
to be true. Leaders have a lot to master early on. They must learn not
only their own parts but also lead their partners in their parts. They
must hear the music if only the beat and navigate the floor. Given the
limited repertiore, followers can accurately guess at what the leader
has in mind.
At more advanced levels things turn around. The leader now has a "bag
of tricks" that he has mastered. The follower usually does not know
what's in this bag, so she mustn't guess. She must allow herself to be
led. Frankly, I don't know how followers accomplish this. I am told
that good followers achieve a kind of Zen state where their minds go
blank and they just respond much like martial arts masters.
At least this has been my experience and observation.
Bob Hink
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:21:50 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
> > I disagree that tango as a social dance has to be so difficult, let
>> alone a dish of bitterness.
> > So what if a good leader can train up a talented follower in a few lessons!
>> How does that help your community grow as a whole?
>> Communities grow ONLY as fast as you develop good leaders, or perhaps
>> women would be satisfied with a few more merely decent leaders.
>> Look at your own community. ARE THE LEADERS LEARNING HOW TO DANCE OR
>> ARE THEY QUITTING IN FRUSTRATION?
>
>I am getting a little tired of this discussion, if some of what I or Stephen
>or others say, is simply ignored, overlooked, or misunderstood with a
>purpose, one might think. Tom, you are contradicting yourself. What you are
>saying, is: so what if a good leader can train a talented follower in a few
>lessons, what the community needs is a teacher like Tom, who can train
>leaders, talented or not, in a few lessons, or within a couple of months.
>After all what women want, is good leaders.
>
>Yes, what women want is good leaders alright, and that does not mean some
>guys with half baked knowledge, who regard careful training as troublesome
>and superfluous, and think, technique is something only show dancers really
>need, and for social dance happy-go-lucky is enough.
Our difference is mostly about the idea of what order is it best to
give them which things.
I hear you say that technique is so important it needs to start at day one.
I'm saying (actually Daniel Trenner is saying) hold off on certain
technique (e.g. posture, the tango pose) until AFTER the guys have
figured out how to navigate and manage the follower's steps.
My testimony to the list was that I see the former drive guys out of
tango (or else create wooden, intellectual dancers), and that I just
watched the other methodology succeed really well.
My observation is that tango has many layers, and teachers need to
think more about what layers to introduce when.
The other difference may be that I'm talking about the first 3
months. We may not be in such disagreement about the technical needs
of the next 9 months.
> > I have seen very little discussion of the pedagogy of tango instruction.
>
>Ok, I'll give you an exemple of pedagogy (or student's attitude):
>
>I have a friend, who loves showy moves. So he spent a lot of time and money
>on choreography lessons, and after a year (classes, practicas, and then
>those special lessons for a while) gave a little performance with his wife.
I guess, you are describing a teacher who gives memorized sequences.
Is that methodology actually used that commonly any more?
Obviously that is a lousy way to teach social dance.
> >" --. It is very easy to simply teach the
>external things of tango (do this series of steps, this gancho, this
>posture)."
>you are wrong, the posture is a thing that cannot be achieved by simply
>following the instructions- "Do this posture", the posture needs to
>developped from the inside of the body, it has to be built up one by one,
>and be realised one by one by the student. So does the walk.
You are right that posture needs to come from inside.
What I mean is that SHOWING a posture is easy ("Do it like this".)
Actually teaching how it develops from the inside is a higher level
of teaching skill.
I see most teachers SHOWING tango, not DEVELOPING tango from the inside.
The methodology of SHOWING is easy...success at really communicating
is not so easy.
>And if some guys have chosen the easy way, and learned it in some "tango in
>three easy months" crash course, no matter how confident the men are, the
>women can tell, because the connection is haphazard, the posture is without
>tone, and the lead fails as soon as it gets a little more complicated. The
>technique is not something one can leave until later, to add a few finishing
>touches "how to do it EXACTLY", those "details" are the fundamentals of the
>whole thing.
> Yes, women want good leaders. That means those who mastered the essentials,
>not those who only think they can dance. Yes, a few more merely decent
>leaders would be nice, but not, if they are prepared to remain merely decent
>forever.
I don't think we disagree all that much.
Yes, I have seen three-month guys that fit your description. (Hell,
I've seen 3 year guys that fit your description).
I have also seen three-month guys who are much further along. I think
you might look at them and say, "hmmm, they're decent, let's see what
they are like at 12 months."
Both you and I are anxious that the guys not get stuck at some
"merely decent" level.
What we both certainly agree on is that it is really important to get
more guys to be really good dancers....at 1 or 3 years.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:30:00 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
>
> At more advanced levels things turn around. The leader now has a "bag
> of tricks" that he has mastered. The follower usually does not know
> what's in this bag, so she mustn't guess. She must allow herself to be
> led. Frankly, I don't know how followers accomplish this.
It is accomplished by being on her own balance, by having her weight on one
foot and the other foot free to move in any direction he leads her, by being
flexible enough around her middle to follow his chest rotating to the side,
or have her own foot pivoting without her upper body moving with it...stuff
like that. Technique and a dancer's body, in essence.
I am told
> that good followers achieve a kind of Zen state where their minds go
> blank and they just respond much like martial arts masters.
Well, Bob, a good leader manages to put a woman in such a Zen state, where
she does not have to worry what he will do next, because his body will show
her very clearly, and she can trust him not to throw her off balance and not
to move before she has finished her step, and that he always knows exactly
where she is without having to look at his or her feet, much like somebody
in martial arts. The Argentines say: "Put her to sleep..Dormirla" Upright
and moving, that is...Feels nice.
>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:50:25 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Gavito on Learning Curves for Men and Women.
One thing I would like to add before I forget:
today Carlos Gavito told us, that having learned tango is much like having
learned to ride a bicycle. Your body remembers, and even if someone asks you
to dance after a ten year break, you will still know how to do it.
And the other thing he said, is, he has been dancing tango for fourty years,
and he is still learning. He is learning while he is teaching us, too.
"Fourty years !" the whole class breathed. I guess, it must be like moving
from Ravel to Chopin, and then on to Rachmaninov, and then getting better at
Rachmaninov, and maybe become a composer...Years and years of enjoying
yourself while you learn, and it does not get boring either.
Exercising for tango has always seemed like learning to play the piano to
me, anyway...
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:03:08 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Gavito on Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Astrid, you wrote:
>>>
today Carlos Gavito told us,...he has been dancing tango for fourty years,
and he is still learning.
<<<
As a first response on this interesting discussion, I'll offer this - in
Miami this past June Carlos Gavito and Marcela Duran were asked how long it
takes a leader or a follower to get "good".
A pause...Gavito then said, "A follower, if she works hard, can become good
within, oh, five months." Another pause, while the audience digested this.
Then Marcela said, "For a leader, there is so much...learning the music, how
to express,...to become good, ten years."
Brian Dunn
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:41:58 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>I'm saying (actually Daniel Trenner is saying) hold off on certain
>technique (e.g. posture, the tango pose) until AFTER the guys have
>figured out how to navigate and manage the follower's steps.
>
>My testimony to the list was that I see the former drive guys out of
>tango (or else create wooden, intellectual dancers), and that I just
>watched the other methodology succeed really well.
If we are now simply arguing about the order in which these skills are
taught, I have difficulty seeing what the other methodology is.
Every teacher is likely to have his/her own approach to teaching that
emphasizes their own skills and minimizes their own liabilities. That is a
reasonable expectation, but why should anyone pay attention when that
teacher makes it an article of religious faith that their approach is the
only correct one--particularly when it is a decidedly incomplete approach?
A teacher can transmit an encouraging or even compelling impression of
tango to some relatively new leaders by emphasizing how to navigate and
manage the follower's steps--and these are valuable skills. My experience
and observations tell me, however, that a person must develop many skills
to dance well.
An integrated methodology the transmits musicality, walking, steps and
figures, improvisational/navigational concepts, intuition, connectedness
and technique (including posture, balance and axis) need not produce
wooden, intellectual dancers. In fact I have heard Daniel Trenner's
approach to teaching described as dry and intellectual--although Daniel
himself is anything but--and I have some seen people react to his classes
in a wooden, intellectual manner. I do not think that the approach to
teaching will have much affect on how students express themselves in
dancing, but the teachers' personalities (and possibly their approaches to
teaching) can determine what kinds of people will be comfortable as their
students.
>I hear you say that technique is so important it needs to start at day
one.
Interestingly enough, only the most committed dancers work to develop much
technique themselves, but when nearly anyone starts describing the ideal
dancer of the opposite sex, what you hear is a description of great
technique.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:29:20 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
A thing which is extremely frustrating for the
beginning follower in classes, of course, is to dance
with leaders who have only been taking tango classes
as long as she has. I think that it's true the
learning curves are different. I can tell you from
experience that I would have made - and would be
making - much better progress if the leaders in my
classes could lead.
I don't say that they are at fault - I have studied
the lead a little and it's hard. But how in the name
of heaven am I supposed to learn to stay on my axis,
propel myself once I feel the lead, keep my chest
facing toward the leader, and stride confidently with
long steps backwards, when the guys in my class are
wrestling with counterbody movement, the beat, the
lead, and me?
The answers ought to be the practica and the milonga
(and I include the milonga in spite of the previous
long threads about whether one should or should not go
to a milonga if one cannot already dance), I suppose,
but that only works if the experienced leaders there
are willing to dance with a middle-aged, married woman
who is not really cute - and who cannot dance well.
Marisa
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:46:13 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women
>Here in Auckland NZ, last night I went to a weekly
> class to yet again take
> my only steps, on the way out. The ratio was around
> 3 to 1 of Men to Ladies.
Bob,
Why don't you guys dance with each other in class?
I'm not just being smart - I wonder why. We hear again
and again that early tango was practiced among men -
and also that learning to follow improves the lead.
And if it's true that developing leaders is hard and
bringing up followers is easy, you can all develop
your skills and then you'll be ready for the ladies
when they realize there is a crowd of good leaders who
are eager to get onto the floor and dance.
As a side note, I had an opportunity to see the group
Tangokinesis a couple of weeks ago - an Argentine
modern dance troupe whose choreographer uses some A.
tango vocabulary. From the standpoint of someone who
likes Argentine tango better than modern dance, I
thought the most interesting passage was one where the
four men in the troupe danced as two couples - it was
athletic and exciting. The men in the troupe are said
to have come out of a tango background and the women
from ballet and modern.
Marisa
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:59:36 -0300
From: SMC Administracion <adm@SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women
Marisa Holmes answer a comment from Bob:
>Here in Auckland NZ, last night I went to a weekly
> class to yet again take
> my only steps, on the way out. The ratio was around
> 3 to 1 of Men to Ladies.
Bob, Why don't you guys dance with each other in class?
I'm not just being smart - I wonder why. We hear again
and again that early tango was practiced among men -
and also that learning to follow improves the lead.
The comment of Marisa is quite true. At my tango classes in Buenos Aires,
from time to
time there are not enough women, so we men perform the follower role. It is
a rewarding
experience ( when properly coached by a good teacher, of course), since you
feel how
weird is the lead from the man , how often there is no relationship between
the lead and
the movement of the manīs body .
I took a workshop with Carlos Gavito and Marcela Duran early this year in
Buenos
Aires. At one time , a woman asked Gavito " but how are we supposed to
impose to
the leader our feelings and sensitivity if we are followers"
Then Gavito say " you are not a passive follower, but a human being , giving
all kind
of signals to the man that is leading. It is useful for the men to practice
as followers,let
me show you ,who volunteers to lead me ??"
I raise my hand and the next moment, we were dancing with Gavito as
follower.
I lead Gavito, yes, but his following was not a hollow one . He make me to
stand
in each step, to wait for his movements as follower.
As a matter of fact, the dance that I started with, was completely different
from the
dance we end , in a subtle way Gavito as follower, made me to change and to
have a more shared tango dancing, instead of a "pushing-towing " experience.
Warm milonguero regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women
> >Here in Auckland NZ, last night I went to a weekly
> > class to yet again take
> > my only steps, on the way out. The ratio was around
> > 3 to 1 of Men to Ladies.
>
> Bob,
>
> Why don't you guys dance with each other in class?
> I'm not just being smart - I wonder why. We hear again
> and again that early tango was practiced among men -
> and also that learning to follow improves the lead.
> And if it's true that developing leaders is hard and
> bringing up followers is easy, you can all develop
> your skills and then you'll be ready for the ladies
> when they realize there is a crowd of good leaders who
> are eager to get onto the floor and dance.
>
> As a side note, I had an opportunity to see the group
> Tangokinesis a couple of weeks ago - an Argentine
> modern dance troupe whose choreographer uses some A.
> tango vocabulary. From the standpoint of someone who
> likes Argentine tango better than modern dance, I
> thought the most interesting passage was one where the
> four men in the troupe danced as two couples - it was
> athletic and exciting. The men in the troupe are said
> to have come out of a tango background and the women
> from ballet and modern.
>
> Marisa
>
>
--
.EDU.
--
>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:26:02 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Stephen Brown wrote:
> Interestingly enough, only the most committed dancers work to develop much
> technique themselves, but when nearly anyone starts describing the ideal
> dancer of the opposite sex, what you hear is a description of great
> technique.
May be. Since we are all now and then saying men are from mars and women
are from somewhereelse(most certainly not mars) and such, I want to pitch-in
the following for anyone who wants to discuss:
- Women want to dance with those who will make them come into being.
(i.e., make them look good, etc...)
- Men want to dance with those who will allow them to be.
(to be what they are -- themselves).
rajan.
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:39:10 -0700
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Bob,
My friends that I've brought already know how to dance other styles, how to
move, how to feel the music & have confidence in themselves & their dancing.
They pick it up amazing quickly. I also point out the guys that are good
leaders who are nice & normal (they don't take this dance or themselves too
seriously) about dancing & their ability naturally floats as they're having
fun doing it. No lessons, no bogged down in minutia & no harmful energy from
people who take themselves & this dance too seriously. The biggest problem
we have is too much old Tango is continously played everywhere, which really
puts a damper on enthusiasm & desire to dance & enjoyment of the evening...
Cheers,
Rick Anderson
Portland, OR
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:54:54 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
----- Original Message -----
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:55:10 -0700
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Manuel,
I hope you I haven't given you the wrong impression, we're certainly not
overrun with people critizing each other's dancing. I've just had a couple
women friends that have had, let's say, less than helpful experiences. Tango
can have a lot of ego involved sometimes & a shadowy side. I don't really
know what classes are like because I don't take them. I should probably
invest some time in learning more about the music available for dancing
Tango & then I could be more conversant. The type I'm referring to tends to
sound very similar when played in sets of 3, & acoustically sounds very,
very light on the music & often has a prominent singer on top of it. It just
doesn't very full, rich. Perhaps these are coming from old 78 recrords or
something. I often ask people, esp after being faced with set after set of
this music, if they are connecting with it, if it speaks to them & if it is
really doing anything for their enthusiasm & enjoyment, & the answer I get
is almost always no. Same question after full, rich music, which I believe
to be Canaro, Pugliese & more that I don't always know the name of (Laureena
McKennit (sp?), Greek songs) & the answer is very enthusiastic & desirable
yes. So I've got more research to do here on my end.
So perhaps DJs could do a reality check & actually solicit feedback during
the evening or something, just to check in & see how everyone is doing with
regard to the music being played. Or have feedback cards or something, I
dunnoo...
Bummer you can't make it to Tangofest, I think you'd really like it & thx
for the invitation to dance in Atlanta. I can tell you have a good sense of
humor, sure keeps life fun & interesting...
Cheers...
Rick Anderson
Portland, OR
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:38:38 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women.
Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM> writes:
[...]
> I don't say that they are at fault - I have studied the lead a
> little and it's hard. But how in the name of heaven am I supposed
> to learn to stay on my axis, propel myself once I feel the lead,
> keep my chest facing toward the leader, and stride confidently with
> long steps backwards, when the guys in my class are wrestling with
> counterbody movement, the beat, the lead, and me?
I think "with some difficulty" is probably the answer. And of course,
you must dance with leaders who really can lead (however you manage
that).
I've recently started to follow (something I wish I'd started months
ago---I still wince at some of the things I used to make my partners
do), and I can most definitely see the attraction---some of these
simple basic moves are just so sensual to do. However, I've been
following my teacher, mostly, and of course he knows how to lead well.
I'm sure it wouldn't have been nearly so enjoyable following someone
like me, nor nearly as easy.
[...]
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:29:01 -0700
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Learning curves
I'm going to change the thread a little bit. I'm going to make a
generalization of a major difference between men and women. It DOESN'T
apply to EVERY woman nor man but to a lot. (I'm putting my armor on
expecting a fire fight.)
Women are "in touch" with their bodies. They feel leads very well and
know when something "feels" wrong. They may not know what's wrong with a
lead, but they know something is wrong. An example is a man thinking he
has lead ochos and dancing his steps for ocho (side to side). He hasn't
turned his shoulders so the woman steps side to side with him. It feels
strange to be doing this but she does it anyway. The man probably doesn't
have a clue what's going on. WHY?
As a general rule, men AREN'T in touch with their bodies. And if they
aren't in touch with their bodies, they aren't in touch with their
partner's body. This may come a surprise, but the woman's steps ARE MORE
IMPORTANT than the man's steps. The man moves his body to indicate to the
woman the intended figure. When something goes wrong, the woman is
convinced she did something wrong, apologizes, and the man accepts it.
Men don't realize that the woman is dancing what he leads not necessarily
what he intended. They are not always the same.
I remember helping my private teacher with one of his group classes. The
man couldn't lead his wife in an open box. I lead the woman in the open
box. When we finished, he looked upset at her and said "Why can't you do
that with me?"
I became a better dancer once I started yoga. I don't know the type of
yoga but I call it "push-pull." I lean on my left side and the therapist
pulls on my right arm. I lean on my right side and the therapist pulls on
my left arm. The treatment is to release built up tension, tension I
didn't even realize I had. Now I'm more aware of tension and stress, even
if I don't know what in my life is causing it.
I encourage beginning women to tell beginning men that their lead is
confusing or hurtful. I guarantee that a lot of them don't realize
they're NOT turning their shoulders to lead ochos or they are strong
arming the woman, pulling on one arm and pushing on the other. Ladies,
you'll be doing them a big favor.
Michael
Not as confused as he used to be
Washington, DC
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:08:23 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women
Marisa wrote:
{"Why don't you guys dance with each other in class?"}
I think this is a very good point. When I sit a dance out or I'm DJing, I
like to watch some of my friends who are really advanced dancers. Sometimes
I can learn a lot just by watching the details of their movements. I don't
try to imitate their movements, because they may not fit my body or
abilities. But I can watch HOW they move, see how focused they are on the
music and their partners, and even talk to their partners afterwards. Then,
if there's a chance and it's a practica or some other informal gathering
(like a house party at 5am....), I'll ask them to lead me a bit. Then I
lead them a bit. This gives me a feel for how they move in both roles and
has resulted in some of the real pearls of knowledge that I've gained in
recent months. I've even learned a few new steps from their repertoires.
The 7am conversations after a long night of dancing can also be very
revealing.
Aside from that, and the lessons I take, I have recently realized that it is
the women I dance with that I learn the most from. When I dance, the women
teach me a lot. They teach me when to be soft and when to be firm, when
they want to be active and playful and when they just want to fall into a
trance and be led gently around the room. The thing is, all I have to do is
listen (with my body) and I am presented with this golden learning
opportunity. If my head is full of the next fancy move I'm about to
(attempt) to execute or whether my big toe is pointed at a 10 degree angle
or anything else external to THIS MOMENT, I will learn nothing. When I
reach the state that I call "tango trance", I am continually amazed at how
much I can learn, about ALL elements of the dance, including technique,
connection, musicality, navigation, etc., etc. The funny thing is that I've
reached the tango trance even when my posture wasn't perfect, but I was
pulsing along with the music, moving very simply. When I reach the trance I
find there's a constant improvement of posture, comfort of the embrace, etc.
When it's 6am and you've danced all night, you realize that your neck is
sore, or your shoulder is sore, or any number of other elements of posture
or embrace that could be improved upon.
This makes me think that there may be a portion of the tango communities
worldwide that are spending too much time at workshops and lessons and not
enough time out there dancing. The people (men and women) who selectively
attend lessons and spend a lot of time dancing USUALLY feel relatively
relaxed and at ease when they dance, whereas MOST (but not all) the people
who spend a LOT of time at workshops and relatively little time out dancing
typically feel tense and uneasy when they're dancing (men and women). Then
there are those who have a lot of time and do both as much as possible and
it shows - a lot of concerted effort in lessons and practicas and a lot of
miles dancing typically results in an exceptionally good dancer. I'm saying
this from the point of view of someone who leads at milongas but spends a
fair amount of time following at practicas, lessons, and house parties if
possible, dancing with men and women.
Dan Boccia
Anchorage, AK
Having a blast and losing a lot of sleep at the Portland TangoFest
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:54:50 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <melinda.bates@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Learning curves
----- Original Message -----
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:39:11 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Learning curves
a class with Metin, some years ago, when he was just
> learning English. He was trying to explain this concept to the men, and
> announced with great passion, "MEN! You have to FEEL the woman up!"
>
I love this joke, Melinda !
Aah, the differences in culture ! Last night I was sitting with two Japanese
women in a pub during a practica break, and talked about my first teacher
(who is now the partner of Milena Plebs), and we compared him to his
ex-colleague, who is still here, running a milonga now.
I said: "He once told me, he dances tango because he loves to hold women in
his arms." "What !" they squealed. "But that's not good! That's dangerous !"
"No", I said, "it is a necessary condition to be a good dancer." Then we
discussed the other teacher, who mainly seems to do it to make a living, for
lack of any other skill maybe, and is rather cold and withdrawn.. Then one
of them went:"Oh, I see. So when he dances with a woman, he thinks 'woman,
woman, woman...", but when the other one dances with a woman, he thinks,
'money, money, money'. But yes, that certainly makes a difference!"
; )
Astrid
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:08:15 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning Curves for Men and Women
>{"Why don't you guys dance with each other in class?"}
I think Dan Boccia made many good points in responding to this question,
and I would like to add a few additional comments about the historical
practices in Buenos Aires that are frequently invoked to recommend that men
practice with each other to develop their dance skills.
As most people know, the women were few, and the males had to practice with
each other to develop and refine their skills before dancing with women.
The boys started by learning the woman's part, led by an older more skilled
male dancer--either relatives or older boys from the neighborhood. As the
younger boys grew older, physically stronger and more skilled in tango,
they graduated to learning the lead and refining their leading skills by
working with younger boys.
Consequently, the younger boys learned the follower's parts by working with
someone who already understood the follower's part and had some basic
skills in leading The older boys most likely refined their leading skills
by working with someone who was smaller....
The translation to today is to recommend that two adult male beginners work
with each other. In this situation, the follower is likely to find the
leader they are working with does not know much about either leading or
following. The leader is more likely to be working with someone who is
about their own size and requires much more muscle to move than a woman.
Neither suggests many similarities with the historical practices in Buenos
Aires.
Some of the older tango dancers also tell us that because there were much
fewer women tango dancers than men, only rudimentary skills were required
of the women. In addition, social customs were such that women or girls
did not practice with the men or boys. Today, women attend classes and
practices with the men and frequently outnumber the men. And because they
are taking classes and attending practices, many of the women of today are
likely to have developed a greater knowledge of tango than was required in
many circles during the golden age.
I am not saying that men cannot refine their tango skills by learning the
follower's part or working together. Rather, I am saying that changes in
the environment in which tango is learned and danced suggest that the
advantages to the men of learning tango by working with each other have
decreased subtantially relative to those of working with the women.
As Dan wrote:
>I have recently realized that it is the women I dance
>with that I learn the most from. When I dance, the women
>teach me a lot.
Of course, the improvement in women's skills relative to those of men may
mean that today's women are more likely to find their dance partners less
satisfying than women during the golden age of tango found their dance
partners.
With best regards from Texas,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:28:01 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning curves
Melinda Bates wrote:
> announced with great passion, "MEN! You have to FEEL the woman up!"
Nuances of a language can be a nuisance for a learner, I suppose --
taken at face value, what he was trying to teach would seem to have
been 'learning *the* curves' as opposed to 'the learning curves' (of
this thread, his intended subject ;-)
rajan.
