3290  List Craft

Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:34:37 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: List Craft

I have received many private responses to my initial
post in the never-ending floor craft thread. The
overall private message was one of general
dissatisfaction with the character and tone of this
list. Over and over people admitted their reluctance
to post to the list out of fear of personal attacks. I
would like to propose the idea that the etiquette
problems on this list mirror the etiquette problems on
the dance floor. If so, perhaps the solution to one
will also solve the other.

After many near-the-mark posts on the subject of floor
craft, some truths emerged:

From Andrea: Responsibility, patience, dignity,
gentlemanlyness and generosity of spirit
From Lima: do not interfere with the other dancers,
co-operative floor craft vs. adversarial floor craft.

My summary of the above: Respect the other humans.

"bailas como so", you dance who you are [also from
Andrea]

I suspect that the personalities so apparent in this
list are also reflected on the dance floor. Might it
be true that those who are aggressive on this list
practice adversarial floor craft?
And those who treat others with dignity and respect
practice co-operative floor craft?
What about me? Where do I fit in?

A therapist once told me that my problem is that I am
a rescuer. I charge blindly into battle at the first
hint of injustice, to defend the weak and innocent.
This is not a good thing, to answer violence with
violence. Not to mention that it also robs the victims
of the chance to defend themselves.

This personal trait is reflected in my post. Like many
previous threads, this one started with a constructive
question addressing a real problem. The questioner was
pointlessly attacked, and I leapt to counter-attack.
Many listeros sent me personal notes of thanks and
congratulations, cheering my efforts. But very few
risked public exposure: proof that I accomplished
nothing. I may have distracted the aggressors for a
short time, but I havent made the environment any
safer for those who have been intimidated. How much
better would the thread have developed if I had
responded in the manner of Jay Rabe? His were the
truly constructive posts, most deserving of cheers and
congratulations.

This personal trait of mine can also be reflected in
my floor craft. To the beginners, I can be the
champion, a protective wall that appears between them
and the aggressive charge of a darter-in-and-out. But
to the darters, Im just another violent jerk who
keeps getting in the way. My next personal challenge:
to translate Jays example onto the dance floor. Find
a way to manage the aggressive dancers with dignity
and respect, instead of meeting violence with
violence.

My challenge to the list: Clean your own house. This
list is dominated by a tiny but very aggressive
minority, who prefer pointless violence to meaningful
discourse. Stand up for yourselves, and demand
respect. But do it with dignity, not violence. Follow
Jays lead, not mine.

My summary of the above: Respect the other humans.

Cheers,
Sean

Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:31:44 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: List Craft

Sean:
What are talking about??? I don't remember all the messages but I remember you wrote about a workshop that helped you in navigation. =
Whatever was taught, it was taught in a way that resonated inside you. That's wonderful! From what I remember (I don't save all the messages), =
you were attacked because somebody thought you learned all there was to learn in one workshop.

I've taken private lessons with the same instructor for 6 1/2 years. Some things he told me in year 2 didn't make any sense until year 4. =
You've been taught the same things over and over again, but some messengers (teachers) make more sense than others. What are you sorry =
for?

You are correct that dancers bring their personal problems onto the dance floor -- and into this list. This list provides many valuable =
insights to tango-- for those who know how to use it. Knowledge is power. Some people know how to use power and for others -- power uses =
them. Alcohol deadens judgment and power encourages reckless behavior.

The more I dance tango, the more I learn about myself; the good and the bad. If I learn about the "bad," I can work on changing it. Otherwise, =
I'm oblivious how I impact others, which sometimes translates into who won't dance with me. (Of course, potential partners can have their own =
problems.)

As for accomplishing nothing, don't rush to judgment. You NEVER know how what you write impacts on others. It's like "if a tree falls in a forest =
and nobody is there, does the tree make a noise." I've felt the same way when I post something and get no response, then wonder, "did I waste my =
time posting?" Tango is private and reading the messages is done in private.

Abrazos,

Michael Ditkoff
Not afraid to sign my name from Washington, DC




----- Original Message -----
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 9:34 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] List Craft


I have received many private responses to my initial
post in the never-ending floor craft thread. The
overall private message was one of general
dissatisfaction with the character and tone of this
list. Over and over people admitted their reluctance
to post to the list out of fear of personal attacks. I
would like to propose the idea that the etiquette
problems on this list mirror the etiquette problems on
the dance floor. If so, perhaps the solution to one
will also solve the other.

My summary of the above: Respect the other humans.

"bailas como so", you dance who you are [also from
Andrea]

I suspect that the personalities so apparent in this
list are also reflected on the dance floor. Might it
be true that those who are aggressive on this list
practice adversarial floor craft?
And those who treat others with dignity and respect
practice co-operative floor craft?
What about me? Where do I fit in?


This personal trait is reflected in my post. Like many
previous threads, this one started with a constructive
question addressing a real problem. The questioner was
pointlessly attacked, and I leapt to counter-attack.
Many listeros sent me personal notes of thanks and
congratulations, cheering my efforts. But very few
risked public exposure: proof that I accomplished
nothing. I may have distracted the aggressors for a
short time, but I havent made the environment any
safer for those who have been intimidated. How much
better would the thread have developed if I had
responded in the manner of Jay Rabe? His were the
truly constructive posts, most deserving of cheers and
congratulations.

My challenge to the list: Clean your own house. This
list is dominated by a tiny but very aggressive
minority, who prefer pointless violence to meaningful
discourse. Stand up for yourselves, and demand
respect. But do it with dignity, not violence. Follow
Jays lead, not mine.

My summary of the above: Respect the other humans.

Cheers,
Sean





send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.

Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:49:28 -0600
From: Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: List Craft

I would like to concur with Sean. I did not join in on this thread of
the floor craft but a previous thread that I had started about weddings
band with a simple question brought attacks from a couple of people on
this site. As a result of the attacks I had many people sending me
private messages rather than posting publicly. Most were in support but
some questioned me fairly. I presumed (while a few said so) they
preferred a private email in fear of themselves coming under attacks.

To those very few that feel they have to attack in order to support
their position I say STOP THINK before you open you mouth. This list
becomes polarized every time someone comes under attack. This list has
over 1140 people on it. I would estimate that for the most part not
many more than 100 people ever post and the majority of the posts are
from 30 people or less.

I am sure that the silent majority have more of value to say for me
than the few loudmouths who try to make it miserable to everyone else.
Someone who presses a point to demeaning another only reveals how
small, and insecure they are.

I regularly eliminate 3 people on list site before I even read their
posts. Two men and one woman who may at times have something of value
to say but it is too much trouble for me to wade through their dribble
to get to anything of value. The one woman has on several occasions
tried to engage me privately with attacks that I had to tell her never
to send me another private email again.

To the few small people I would say to you to learn how to disagree
without being crude. I would also doubt that anyone who attacks through
emails would have the guts to attack in person. It is a cowardly act
to hide hundreds or thousands of miles away and call people names with
little chance of being held accountable.

May your tango prosper,
Leonardo K.


TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
On Mar 11, 2005, at 8:34 PM, Trini or Sean - PATangoS wrote:

> I have received many private responses to my initial
> post in the never-ending floor craft thread. The
> overall private message was one of general
> dissatisfaction with the character and tone of this
> list. Over and over people admitted their reluctance
> to post to the list out of fear of personal attacks. I
> would like to propose the idea that the etiquette
> problems on this list mirror the etiquette problems on
> the dance floor. If so, perhaps the solution to one
> will also solve the other.
>
> After many near-the-mark posts on the subject of floor
> craft, some truths emerged:
>
> From Andrea: Responsibility, patience, dignity,
> gentlemanlyness and generosity of spirit
> From Lima: do not interfere with the other dancers,
> co-operative floor craft vs. adversarial floor craft.
>
> My summary of the above: Respect the other humans.
>
> "bailas como so", you dance who you are [also from
> Andrea]
>
> I suspect that the personalities so apparent in this
> list are also reflected on the dance floor. Might it
> be true that those who are aggressive on this list
> practice adversarial floor craft?
> And those who treat others with dignity and respect
> practice co-operative floor craft?
> What about me? Where do I fit in?
>
> A therapist once told me that my problem is that I am
> a rescuer. I charge blindly into battle at the first
> hint of injustice, to defend the weak and innocent.
> This is not a good thing, to answer violence with
> violence. Not to mention that it also robs the victims
> of the chance to defend themselves.
>
> This personal trait is reflected in my post. Like many
> previous threads, this one started with a constructive
> question addressing a real problem. The questioner was
> pointlessly attacked, and I leapt to counter-attack.
> Many listeros sent me personal notes of thanks and
> congratulations, cheering my efforts. But very few
> risked public exposure: proof that I accomplished
> nothing. I may have distracted the aggressors for a
> short time, but I havent made the environment any
> safer for those who have been intimidated. How much
> better would the thread have developed if I had
> responded in the manner of Jay Rabe? His were the
> truly constructive posts, most deserving of cheers and
> congratulations.
>
> This personal trait of mine can also be reflected in
> my floor craft. To the beginners, I can be the
> champion, a protective wall that appears between them
> and the aggressive charge of a darter-in-and-out. But
> to the darters, Im just another violent jerk who
> keeps getting in the way. My next personal challenge:
> to translate Jays example onto the dance floor. Find
> a way to manage the aggressive dancers with dignity
> and respect, instead of meeting violence with
> violence.
>
> My challenge to the list: Clean your own house. This
> list is dominated by a tiny but very aggressive
> minority, who prefer pointless violence to meaningful
> discourse. Stand up for yourselves, and demand
> respect. But do it with dignity, not violence. Follow
> Jays lead, not mine.
>
> My summary of the above: Respect the other humans.
>
> Cheers,
> Sean
>
>
>
>
>
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>

Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:45:07 +0100
From: Hélène Eckert <Helene.Eckert@ITU.INT>
Subject: RE : [TANGO-L] List Craft

to Leonardo and all of those who receive the messages,
how many of the thousand or so who are on this list read all of the hundreds of messages dealing with one subject and fighting around ? I =
for one, AM NOT INTERESTED ! this is NOT a constructive approach! it seems to me that some writers in this list enjoy controversy to a point =
where it becomes sick ! isn't a reason why so many of us read very few messages ???
there is a subject I would like to have your ideas about: whether maestros should or not pay when going to milongas ?
Hélène (geneva, Switzerland)

________________________________

De: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango de la part de Leonardo Kunkayo