467 looking for 2 tango's
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:04:28 +0100
From: M-Jeanne Tavernier <mjeanne@EEGO.NET>
Subject: Fw: looking for 2 tango's
Dear friends from Tango list,
I'm looking for two tango's, but I'm not sure about the exact title.
Where can I find :
'Zadunga' a vals from Canaro or Lomuto ???
'La cicatriz' from Juan D'Arienzo with Alberto Echag|e ???
Thanks in advance.
M-Jeanne Tavernier
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:56:50 +0100
From: Hannes Rieger <hrieger@GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: Fw: looking for 2 tango's
Hi M-Jeanne, hi list,
M-Jeanne Tavernier wrote:
> I'm looking for two tango's, but I'm not sure about the exact title.
> Where can I find :
> 'Zadunga' a vals from Canaro or Lomuto ???
La zandunga by Francisco Canaro/Francisco Amor
> 'La cicatriz' from Juan D'Arienzo with Alberto Echag|e ???
A Milonga
Unfortunately I don't know any available CD with these tracks :-(
Maybe you find the CD 'Tangomagia 1998', it contains La zandunga.
I've recorded La cicatriz from an old vinyl disc.
Hannes
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:22:56 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Fw: looking for 2 tango's
The milonga, La Cicatriz, was once available on a CD called Todo Milonga I.
I am not sure what label it was on (maybe Music Hall?), but the CD is now
discontinued.
Some DJs in Buenos Aires use old recordings to produce private CDs that
contain tangos, valses and milongas that are not available on commerically
released CDs. These private releases can be purchased directly from the
DJ. That may be the case for La Cicatriz and La Zandunga.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:12:54 +0100
From: Hannes Rieger <hrieger@GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: Fw: looking for 2 tango's
Stephen Brown wrote:
> Some DJs in Buenos Aires use old recordings to produce private CDs that
> contain tangos, valses and milongas that are not available on commerically
> released CDs. These private releases can be purchased directly from the
> DJ. That may be the case for La Cicatriz and La Zandunga.
Exact (at least in one case). Whereby I sometimes ask myself, whether
this offends some copyrights, especially if you use it on public events
link milongas.
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 06:44:25 -0800
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Loot (was looking for 2 tango's)
--- Hannes Rieger <hrieger@GMX.DE> wrote:
> Stephen Brown wrote:
>
> > Some DJs in Buenos Aires use old recordings to
> produce private CDs that
> > contain tangos, valses and milongas that are not
> available on commerically
> > released CDs. These private releases can be
> purchased directly from the
> > DJ. That may be the case for La Cicatriz and La
> Zandunga.
>
>
> Exact (at least in one case). Whereby I sometimes
> ask myself, whether
> this offends some copyrights, especially if you use
> it on public events
> link milongas.
Of course it does.
The domain of intellectual property rights is the new
Wild, Wild West. Bootleggers ignore the legitimate
property claims of artists who create content.
Burning CD's and giving them to your friends is a
violation of a property owner's exclusive right to
publish. So is selling them, unless you have
purchased something called a mechanical license from
the publisher. Playing them in public without
purchasing a blanket license from a performing rights
licensing agency violates an owner's exclusive right
to perform. These rights are excusive, meaning you
must get permission from the owner who doesn't have to
award the permission, because they are defined as such
by law. These laws were enforceable when distribution
was controllable.
CD burners aren't the only tool for infringement. MP3
files and peer-to-peer networks (P2P) are the big
brothers of burners. Napster was a modern Pandora's
Box. The legal action against them, the fledgling
security initiatives for digital media, and so on are
all (probably futile) efforts to close up the Box
again.
It will never be the same for musicians. Nobody has
to buy what musicians labor to produce and which they
legally own. If you examine the entertainment press
(Billboard and Variety for starters) you will see that
movie studios are also hysterical with fear because
they're next for the guillotine of peer-to-peer
networking. The only thing preserving them from the
wholesale piracy that has ravaged the music industry
is limitations to bandwidth. As soon as you can
download the digital file for a full length feature
film in a reasonable amount of time, the landscape of
Hollywood will change, too.
If movies can't be sold to consumers, then nobody will
be able to afford the tens of millions of dollars it
takes to produce blockbuster films. This same economy
constrains music production today. More specifically,
it constrains the release of tango recordings that
have not yet been released on digital media. Since it
is hard for owners to recoup their investment, you are
more likely to obtain that music as contraband from
pirates.
Some tango DJ's flout the law fearlessly because
nobody has the resources to prosecute them. Some DJ's
even market their loot unabashedly on the web. When
we have seen looters rampage in riots, it is easy to
recognize why law enforcement officials can do little
but stand by helplessly. The mayhem is far too large
to control.
There are two essential differences between the
looting in, say, the LA riots and the looting of
intellectual property. One, looting of intellectual
property doesn't produce visible, physical damage like
smashed storefronts. Two, looting of digital property
has resulted in economic losses vast in comparison to
the meager losses caused by looters in riots.
The morality is identical.
Jai Jeffryes
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:48:24 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Ethics (Was: Fw: looking for 2 tango's)
>>Some DJs in Buenos Aires use old recordings to produce private CDs that
>>contain tangos, valses and milongas that are not available on
commerically
>>released CDs.
>Whereby I sometimes ask myself, whether this offends some copyrights,
>especially if you use it on public events link milongas.
I think this question has legal and ethical answers that may be somewhat
different. As I understand it, copies of recordings more than 50 years old
can be made legally without paying royalties to the original artists, their
estates or recording companies, so long as a nominal payment is made to an
international licensing agency (which does not remit the money to any
original copyright holders). Any copies of commercially produced CDs would
be illegal, however.
Some companies issuing old tango recordings on CD are the original
copyright owners or make arrangements with the original copyright owners.
Some companies issuing old tango recordings are simply making the nominal
payment to the international licensing agency. Those individuals who are
making privately produced CDs from tango recordings are typically not
paying any licensing fee or making arrangements with the original copyright
owners. Enforcement is typically not too zealous, but private releases can
substantially reduce the market for commercial releases, which may be
keeping many old tango recordings from being made available commercially.
Interestingly enough, playing the music at public venues has different
legal implications. Owning a copy of a CD (legal or otherwise) does not
typically confer the rights to broadcast the music or to play it in venues
that charge admission. Typically venues are required to obtain site usage
licenses to play any type of music by paying a general licensing fee to
their local music licensing organization, and most often the organization
in one country has a reciprocal arrangement with the licensing
organizations of other countries. In this case, the licensing organization
is less concerned about the legality of the copy than about the right to
play music at a public venue. The zealousness of enforcement varies from
country to country and city to city.
I am not claiming any legal expertise or complete knowledge on the subject,
and I would certainly welcome clarifying remarks from those who have better
knowledge.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:52:39 -0800
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Loot (was looking for 2 tango's)
I understand and respect the issues of intellectual property that Jai
brings to the forefront, but I would have to disagree in some ways.
First, I don't see how making copies of a CD whose musicians are dead,
and which the record company that owns the rights to refuses to sell
can be immoral. If one has to go through the effort to convert an old,
out of print LP into digital format in order to rescue the song from
extinction, they've done mankind a favor rather than offended someone's
"intellectual" rights. The entire recording industry is set up to give
the majority of the money to middle men and third parties. The digital
age give us the posibility to cut all of this out. Sure, we have integrity
issues to work out, but if the musicians themselves sold their recordings
online with a much lower price tag, people would get more honest. I
know I would buy much more music if it was directly from the muscicians,
and considerably cheaper. In Japan, CD's cost about $30 thanks to corporate
price fixing, in the US they're about $20. Tell me how much of this
goes to the musician, and then lets talk about who the pirate is.
I read a list of the top grossing musicians in the US a few years ago.
Metallica, one of the bands who spearheaded the movement against napster,
was near the top of the list. The interesting fact was that the large
majority of their income comes from touring. If performers do their
job and perform, their fans will go to the concerts and they'll make
money. As for the record industry, they do a valuable service in getting
msucians recorded with decent equipment, and help with marketing etc,
but their business practices are far from pristine. In many ways, they
stifle musicians much worse than an occasional tango DJ resurrecting
old tangos.
Peace
--
clayton beach
akumushi@onebox.com - email
(866) 248-7670 x7206 - voicemail/fax
Voicemail, email, and fax...all in one place.
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:11:37 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Loot (was looking for 2 tango's)
The privately produced CDs of old tangos generally have a more limited
distribution than those produced commercially. Nonetheless, privately
produced CDs may limit market for some commercial releases that might
otherwise been barely successful. The consequence is that the availability
of DJ-produced CDs may keep some material from reaching a wider audience.
Of course, the lack of availability of some commercial recordings will
encourage some people to pursue privately produced CDs, so the process may
be self-reinforcing.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:24:09 +0100
From: andy Ungureanu <Andy.Ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Loot (was looking for 2 tango's)
Stephen Brown wrote:
> The privately produced CDs of old tangos generally have a more limited
> distribution than those produced commercially. Nonetheless, privately
> produced CDs may limit market for some commercial releases that might
> otherwise been barely successful.
We heard the argument, doing this job outside a record company is not
only illegal, but immoral. I personaly prefer Claytons arguments.
Now Stephen suggests, a privately produced and sold CD limits the
chances of a professional company. ????
Even if this is true, what I dont believe, this is definetely the
problem of the company and not the DJs or customers.
I prefer to buy a legal CD for 18$ than a self burned for 18$. The
problem is, there is no legal compilation of Milongas with "La
Cicatriz". So I bought "La 29 Milongas" in a Milonga in BA. I know the
compilation is good, because the man is doing this job for many years in
front of real milongueros.
The companies should hear what the customers want and produce something
for their needs. They could for example contact the DJ in BA and offer
him to produce his compilation. He could earn this way more money
legally, than selling some few CDs to the tourists.
Instead of asking someone who knows what the customers want (like a DJ)
they look in their archives and put some songs senseless together,
taking care not to put more than three "good" songs on a CD, mix milonga
vals and tango together so nobody can use this CD in a Milonga and (try
to) sell them for 18$.
The record companies should behave like any other market player and just offer a better product.
Good and cheap products are sold without legal help.
Andy
