3293 Maestros paying at milongas
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:15:16 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Maestros paying at milongas
Dear Hélène,
> there is a subject I would like to have your ideas about:
> whether maestros should or not pay when going to milongas ?
> Hélène (geneva, Switzerland)
This question is usually one of business strategy rather than customs.
If a maestro is present, there is a higher probability that (at least)
his/her students will be more willing to attend the milonga, which means
more income.
If several maestros are present that also gives the place a certain quality.
If a maestro doesn't have to pay for the milonga, obviously he'll probably
feel honored and also more motivated to attend.
On the other hand, if there aren't enough guests to operate the milonga
without financial problems, or milonga attendance is almost completely
independent from maestros being present or not, the question may be raised:
is it worth it?
In Hungary we have a very small tango community compared to most of Europe.
Also, we cannot charge high prices at milongas (prices are between 1.2-2
EUR) because people aren't really willing to commit too much.
Because of this every single ticket counts. We have several people teaching
here, but it would cause some commotion to actually decide who is considered
a maestro and who is not. With an average number of 40-50 people at a
milonga inviting the 10+ people teaching here for free may be a bit of
luxury.
Even like this most milongas are in the red and are maintained as the hobby
of the organizer.
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:50:55 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas
Maestro's and well known teachers & performers are always welcomed at
Woodstock Tango Milongas as my guests.
(I also host tango organizers gratis - altho many pay anyway- and they
usually extend the same courtesy to me. As a result, we announce and
promote each others programs within our own communities and everyone is
better off).
For me, the bottom line is building the tango community... the few
dollars you sacrifice by inviting esteemed dancers is more than made up
by good will and the opportunity to showcase great dancing. From a
business viewpoint, it also doesn't hurt if your milonga gets a
reputation as attracting fantastic dancers!!
In any case, I would never ask a maestro to pay... I think it is an insult.
We have a relatively small community here, and yes, I am always
struggling to make ends meet. If I can cover my expenses ( and I don't
always...) I am happy.
Then again, we don't have large numbers of teachers in the area.
However, I know at least one organizer in NYC who has an extensive guest
list as she recognizes the value of having prominent dancers attend her
events.
Ilene
www.WoodstockTango.com
Tango Horse Productions
Ecsedy Áron wrote:
>Dear Hélène,
>
>
>
>>there is a subject I would like to have your ideas about:
>>whether maestros should or not pay when going to milongas ?
>>Hélène (geneva, Switzerland)
>>
>>
>
>This question is usually one of business strategy rather than customs.
>
>If a maestro is present, there is a higher probability that (at least)
>his/her students will be more willing to attend the milonga, which means
>more income.
>If several maestros are present that also gives the place a certain quality.
>
>If a maestro doesn't have to pay for the milonga, obviously he'll probably
>feel honored and also more motivated to attend.
>
>On the other hand, if there aren't enough guests to operate the milonga
>without financial problems, or milonga attendance is almost completely
>independent from maestros being present or not, the question may be raised:
>is it worth it?
>
>In Hungary we have a very small tango community compared to most of Europe.
>Also, we cannot charge high prices at milongas (prices are between 1.2-2
>EUR) because people aren't really willing to commit too much.
>Because of this every single ticket counts. We have several people teaching
>here, but it would cause some commotion to actually decide who is considered
>a maestro and who is not. With an average number of 40-50 people at a
>milonga inviting the 10+ people teaching here for free may be a bit of
>luxury.
>Even like this most milongas are in the red and are maintained as the hobby
>of the organizer.
>
>Cheers,
>Aron
>
U.
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:16:50 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas
Ecsedy Aron wrote:
>We have several people teaching
>here, but it would cause some commotion to actually decide who is considered
>a maestro and who is not. With an average number of 40-50 people at a
>milonga inviting the 10+ people teaching here for free may be a bit of
>luxury.
>
Ecsedy,
Maestro means "master". Teaching tango does not a Maestro make.
Put it this way: a high school physics teachers don't need advanced
degrees in quantum theoretical physics to do a great job.
Like most other human endeavors, maestro-hood probably requires
something like 6 to 12 hours of practice every day for at least
10 years to attain, and should remain far out of reach for talent
free and/or less dedicated persons.
Anything less results in institutionalized mediocrity or egregious
self-promotion. In fact, upon encountering self-described Maestros,
your optimal response will almost always be exclaiming "How nice!"
and making quiet use of the nearest exit the first chance you get.
In short, charge the local teachers as they couldn't possibly be
Maestros.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:40:39 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas
Dear Chris,
> Ecsedy,
My first name is Aron. Hungarian naming convention puts family name first.
:)
> Maestro means "master". Teaching tango does not a Maestro make.
>
> Put it this way: a high school physics teachers don't need
> advanced degrees in quantum theoretical physics to do a great job.
>
> Like most other human endeavors, maestro-hood probably
> requires something like 6 to 12 hours of practice every day
> for at least 10 years to attain, and should remain far out of
> reach for talent free and/or less dedicated persons.
Here you might get into trouble with the definition. Who I am (or are you)
to decide?
Also, IMHO it is usally the community who decides who is a master.
Not to mention that your definition is somewhat strict. Many of whom you'd
definitely call 'master' would fail at it. (especially some of the ladies)
> In short, charge the local teachers as they couldn't possibly
> be Maestros.
_Local_ teachers? You must be from the US. (Brits tend to be culturally more
sensitive - actually, my comment is true for any English speaking country)
You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what it is to be from a country with a language
spoken by only as many people you have in downtown NY (with no similar
lanugages anywhere on this planet), where an average monthly salary wouldn't
be enough for half a flight ticket to BsAs, and where the above 40 age group
(the main consumers of tango in Europe) has higher unemployment and lot
lower income than the pre-30s. (unlike in Western Europe - or any other
place where market economy is not a 15 year-old novelty)
The teachers I was referring to are either professional dancers/teachers of
other styles as well, with 12+ years of experience or they are milongero/as
who lived and danced abroad and/or were assisting meastros for quite a while
there. Here, the knowledge of these 'teachers' may be as good as any
Argentine maestro (which I presume you were referring to) over there... The
masters you were referring to are truly rare guests here. Thus, the whole
idea of giving exemption to 'maestros' is stupid, as the only maestros who
come here the ones we invite. (we usually pay them for that, and not make
them pay...)
IMHO: the question of charging Gavito, Salas, Herrera, Veron, etc. is simply
a nonsense - these people are not everyday guests in Geneva or in Europe
anywhere. If they would be, the organizer would probably keep a table (with
personal bodyguard and limousine service included) reserved for him at all
times....
Personally I do have an idea what the international community would call a
master. In tango, non-argentines have very little possibility (even if the
knowledge is there) of reaching that status due to the 'Northern longing for
exoticism' I already wrote about on the list and also because of the strong
Argentine propaganda. The combination of the two ensures several decades of
further monopoly. (reminder: actually there is no such thing as Argentine -
over 4/5 of the population were European immigrants; reminder: Salas openly
admitted that the tango he is teaching was _invented_ by him (his words) -
of course based on what he saw - which could have been done by any dancer
with enough motivation to do so; reminder: tango as the majority of us know
it (and admire it) is no longer the tango danced in the past (the 'masters'
are dancing something different) and definfitely not the one from the
beginnings; reminder: over 95% of tango consumers are NOT Argentines (thus
consumer needs are not Argentine, thus the product (tango) is no longer
based on Argentine culture, thus methods, content and ideals will follow if
they haven't did that already (see 'alternative' tango, tango-meditation,
the anti-machismo movement in tango etc...); reminder: tango is not a
popular dance anymore (since 1955) - it has transcended into a 'ballroom
dance', just with no international organization to set rules for it -, this
way it ceased to be a folkdance which evolves by itself (=common people): it
follows a different 'evolution' now, where a very small number influential
masters develop the dance to their (and their consumers') own taste).
Cheers,
Aron
Budapest, Hungary
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:09:57 -0800
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@POBOX.COM>
Subject: (fwd) Re: Maestros paying at milongas
Hello Áron,
You were actually making some pretty good points until you sailed off into
this black hole. Tango doesn't work as "just another ballroom dance" and it is,
for me, the nuances of Argentine culture infusing the dance and the dance
environment that makes tango so attractive and alluring. For anyone sincerely
trying to understand tango ignoring, or worse discounting, the Argentine
cultural aspects of it is like casting oneself adrift without a paddle. While I
mean no disrespect to you culturally or to your use of English I simple cannot
understand the statement below. Tango may be a world wide phenomenon now but to
sever it from it's Argentine heritage and culture misses the point.
Ciao..............
Ed
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:40:39 +0100, Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU> wrote:
>reminder: over 95% of tango consumers are NOT Argentines (thus
>consumer needs are not Argentine, thus the product (tango) is no longer
>based on Argentine culture, thus methods, content and ideals will follow if
>they haven't did that already (see 'alternative' tango, tango-meditation,
>the anti-machismo movement in tango etc...); reminder: tango is not a
>popular dance anymore (since 1955) - it has transcended into a 'ballroom
>dance', just with no international organization to set rules for it -, this
>way it ceased to be a folkdance which evolves by itself (=common people): it
>follows a different 'evolution' now, where a very small number influential
>masters develop the dance to their (and their consumers') own taste).
>
>Cheers,
>
>Aron
>Budapest, Hungary
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:19:35 +0100
From: andy <andy.ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas
Dear Chris and Aron,
:
>>Maestro means "master". Teaching tango does not a Maestro make.
>>
>>
>>
This is a very simple issue. The term was used in the spanish sense,
where one of many meanings, beside "master" is just "teacher" (you may
check the dictionary: https://tradu.scig.uniovi.es/busca.html ). Any one
who is teaching is a "maestro" without neccesarily beeing a "master".
The true master is the "maestro de los maestros", the teacher of the
teachers. If you go to the practica of Gustavo Naveira in Buenos Aires,
you will see what the meaning is. (It was not intended to say he is the
only one ;-))
Cheers
Andy
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:20:21 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Maestros paying at milongas
I completely agree that considering Argentine Tango just another "ballroom"
dance is a mistake, regardless that the western "customer base" may not (at
first) understand the difference.
But my question is, what is the custom in BsAs when Gustavo or Chicho or el
Pulpo show up at a milonga? And what about the less-well-known-in-the-US
teachers/dancers/maestros/milongueros?
Janis?
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:09:46 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Maestros paying at milongas
Hello Ed,
No. You cannot sever it from the heritage, I never said that. Obviously you
also tend to mix up something what _present day_ Argentina is trying to mix
up: the past and the present. Tango as an 'urban folkdance' ceased to exist
in 1955. What is left is no less archeological and not more original than
ballroom dancing. Although some of the ballroom dances have their
folk-origins they were artifically devised dances of course. However, these
artificial dances also did have a very strong cultural adhesion. (mainly
British) With time this adhesion got weaker. Naturally, I didn't mean that
tango is just one dance LIKE one ballroom dance (eg. Waltz).
What I said is: present day Argentines are using the tango heritage as you
or anyone else on this planet do. They simply have some major advantages
when doing so: early (even if subliminal) contact, more possibility to use
quality resources (good tango dancers, music etc.), and a way lot more
motivation (mostly they don't have anything else to sell). They also change
it. And they aren't changing it for their OWN sake, but for the sake of
those who actually purchase tango en masse: the foreigners.
To give you an other approach: I live in a poor country, I wan't to use
whatever is easy to get around here and would like to get big money for it,
I couldn't start learning and then teaching tango here for tourist in
Hungary as this is not what they are coming for. I must learn how to ride a
horse, use a bow, make goulash, how to use a whip, grow a moustache and wear
truly funny costumes. I might also have to learn some Hungarian folk dances
(and call it Tchardash - even though that's it not a folkdance). An
Argentine - of course - does the same things in tango. But it isn't
something they were born with - it isn't connected to nationality. (being
from BsAs of course is a big advantage - being so close to the heritage-,
but Argentina is a HUGE country)
Naturally, because authenticity is part of the product description they have
to arrange it so that all consumers will take what they get as the real
thing. Now question: if Salas and Chicho is real tango, than what do the old
people do? How do you define what is a real tango?
Simply: I cannot find a good definition which would give you the results
that only Argentines are able to create, teach etc. tango, without
explicitly stating that 'tango is a dance done by people with an Argentine
citizenship'.
I usually feel a certain faithlike devotion to everything that is Argentine
(in tango) while the dance is already a worldwide phenomenon, with (in
proportion) much less connection to Argentina then to the US or Japan... It
is not a question that the argentine masters are brilliant. However this
could change in the future. Just no non-argentine is yet motivated enough to
learn (commit) enough to be as good as they are. However, if the community
also raises these argentine masters to godlike status it will be not many
times, but incomparably more difficult for anyone to be considered at the
same level without being Argentine.
Üdv
Áron
Ecsedy Áron
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.milonga.hu/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Loomis
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:10 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] (fwd) Re: Maestros paying at milongas
>
> Hello Áron,
> You were actually making some pretty good points until
> you sailed off into this black hole. Tango doesn't work as
> "just another ballroom dance" and it is, for me, the nuances
> of Argentine culture infusing the dance and the dance
> environment that makes tango so attractive and alluring. For
> anyone sincerely trying to understand tango ignoring, or
> worse discounting, the Argentine cultural aspects of it is
> like casting oneself adrift without a paddle. While I mean no
> disrespect to you culturally or to your use of English I
> simple cannot understand the statement below. Tango may be a
> world wide phenomenon now but to sever it from it's Argentine
> heritage and culture misses the point.
> Ciao..............
> Ed
>
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:40:39 +0100, Ecsedy Áron
> <aron@MILONGA.HU> wrote:
>
> >reminder: over 95% of tango consumers are NOT Argentines
> (thus consumer
> >needs are not Argentine, thus the product (tango) is no
> longer based on
> >Argentine culture, thus methods, content and ideals will
> follow if they
> >haven't did that already (see 'alternative' tango, tango-meditation,
> >the anti-machismo movement in tango etc...); reminder: tango
> is not a
> >popular dance anymore (since 1955) - it has transcended into a
> >'ballroom dance', just with no international organization to
> set rules
> >for it -, this way it ceased to be a folkdance which evolves
> by itself
> >(=common people): it follows a different 'evolution' now,
> where a very
> >small number influential masters develop the dance to their
> (and their consumers') own taste).
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Aron
> >Budapest, Hungary
>
> ---------
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> ---------
>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:48:21 +0800
From: Kace <kace@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Maestros paying at milongas
Ecsedy Aron wrote:
>However, if the community
>also raises these argentine masters to godlike status it will be
>not many times, but incomparably more difficult for anyone to be
>considered at the same level without being Argentine.
>
>
Coming from a background of other dances, I have thought about this
issue of "Argentine-ness"
often.
Nowadays, there are many non-Oriental sinsehs in Martial Arts, and many
non-Indian yogis in
Yoga. I am getting more used to the sight of saffron-clad Caucasion
Buddhist monks, but a
Chinese cowboy in a ten-gallon hat still irks me as unnatural.
When a culture and a discipline can be separated, it is a sign of true
maturity and universal
applicability.
Which brings me to Lindy Hop. The dance is rooted in the Black ghettos
of Harlem, where street
kids found a way to express themselves to big band music in Savoy
Ballroom. Several of the
famous first generation Black swingers, like Norma Miller and Frankie
Manning are still mascots
of the dance today, revered by new generations for their invention of
the acrobatic "air" steps.
But the swing phenomenon have long ago left its "Black roots" behind.
The best performance
Lindy Hop dancers today are from Sweden and UK. The biggest swing
events on earth is held
annually in Sweden. In the US, Black youths hardly bother with swing
when they have Hip Hop,
which is more mainstream and lucrative.
Today a Lindy Hop "maestro" can be any colour and certainly needs no
Zoot suits or to speak
in "hepcat" lingo. The dance has transcended its origins.
Argentina is the past of Tango, but with each CITA more and more dancers
from around the
world tap into the future of the dance. The bleeding edge is always
evolving, mixing in new
elements from other dance genres, using new sounds and techniques, and
becoming more
egalitarian in lead-and-follow. What is important that, as Tango
becomes more universal,
its Argentine-ness remains the anchor that prevents it to drift into
Salsa or Modern dance.
One needs to continue to pay homage to Argentina's culture to know the
heart of tango,
but not to idolize or worship at the feet of godlike personalities.
Kace
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:20:31 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Maestros paying at milongas
Just saw the way blacks danced Lindy-Hop in 1940-1950
on the tapes called "The spirit moves"
And it shows!
...
( about $200 from Trenner's catalog )
Igor Polk from San Francisco
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:01:49 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas (also: development of tango) #1
Dear Chris,
> >My first name is Aron. Hungarian naming convention puts
> family name first.
> >
> I apologize Mr. Ecsedy, I've made that mistake before ...
Only a few nations use it that way, so never mind.
> >>Maestro means "master". Teaching tango does not a Maestro make.
> your dues and put in your practice time to get the status
> before being considered.
> Yes, but find me the guy considered a "master" of Argentine
> tango after only a year or two of dancing tango.
This is the usual problem of good marketing ('star making'). If someone is
able to sell himself as master to a community, then he will be considered so
- independently from his merits.
Of course, true knowledge usually recieves the due admiration.
Self-appointed masters without adequate training have a very week status, as
they are only considered masters by beginners... Those who know better will
leave very soon.
> >You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what it is to be from a country with a
> >language spoken by only as many people you have in downtown
> NY (with no
> >similar lanugages anywhere on this planet), where an average monthly
> >salary wouldn't be enough for half a flight ticket to BsAs,
> and where
> >the above 40 age group (the main consumers of tango in Europe) has
> >higher unemployment and lot lower income than the pre-30s.
> (unlike in
> >Western Europe - or any other place where market economy is not a 15
> >year-old novelty)
> >
> OK. On the other hand, consider the situation where a market
> economy has been the norm for centuries. One phenomenon we
> experience is the steady application of hyperbole, until a
> term like "maestro" becomes rather empty of meaning.
I believe, you mean that you'll have so many people teaching that the
special meaning of a master loses it's meaning.
Unfortunately, this is something very hard to control. Since tango has no
competitive system, no certification system - very probably the genre
wouldn't even tolerate such control mechanisms -, it is very hard to
accertain the exact level of knowledge of a dancer or teacher. It is usually
the market which decides.
> We get people calling themselves 10th degree black belts in a
> 1 man school of martial arts, where someone who played the
> part of a farm wife in a movie is taken as an authority on
> farming, and so on.
Yes. The small community 'hero'. :))) I know that phenomenon too.
Actually, such an effect also appears in the work of international
organizations: did you know that there is an all international world
championship in tango argentino with vals, milonga and tango (both social
and fantasía) organized by IDO (www.ido-online.org) ? The present world
champion is Hungarian... Where would you put that? The guy isn't bad at all,
but his title may not worth that much on the international tango market. It
sells his lessons over here all right...
> Not sure if I would put Salas and Herrera in the same company
> as Gavito and Veron, but for all of those people and many
> others, we'd be paying for them to come in rural Iowa as well.
Hmmm.Veron is usually frowned upon my many. I can guess the reasons, but
could you please give details why?
> I agree that as a matter of general principle, non-Argentines
> should have equal opportunity for Maestro status. From more
> than one point of view, this isn't likely to happen any time
> soon. Sort of like sparkling wine is only Champagne when it
> comes from the Champagne region of France (a matter of law,
> rather than custom actually).
Yes, but Champagne is made only in Champagne because they very effectively
protected their status (it is true for all French wine producing regions).
However the same quality of sparkling wine using the same methods can be
manufactured up to even higher standards anywhere else on the planet... The
only difference will be a snobbish custom of the name (and hence several
times the price).
This is exactly which I was referring to by 'monopolization'...
> A side note WRT the anti-machismo movement in tango: much of
> the current popularity of tango almost certainly results from
> the opportunity to address the parts of feminism that don't
> please men and women all that much, at least
As you might have guessed: Such an evolution is inevitable in any dance
without a control system. And this is one of the appeals in tango - it gives
a certain freedom you don't find in international ballroom for instance.
Continued in a second mail...
Ecsedy Áron
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.milonga.hu/
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:02:28 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas (also: development of tango) #2
Continued from a previous mail...
> If your definition of "folk dance" describes something passed
> down without much change between generations, existing as a
It is not possible for a folk dance to be passed on without much change.
Living folk dances (see def. below) are dynamically and gradually changing
genres. Only because of ethnographist do we believe that folkdances are
rigid: their data collection is usually just a sample from a very short
period of time. Of course, you cannot compare the speed of change to tango
or any other urban dances. Folk dancing is usually the affair of a small
community, thus there is very little external (cultural) influence, and the
life in such environments is much 'slower'.
'living folk' culture: although modern urban culture calls anything with a
rural historical background 'folk' however you must know that 'folk music'
and 'folk dancing' etc. has several categories. The only thing which may be
called 'folk dancing' is the dancing which takes place at the source of it's
origin, within the context it was developed and danced traditionally, by the
people it was developed originally (and the time it is still recent and part
of the everyday customs).
Thus, if you dance the folk dances of your own country you are no true folk
dancer. You simply perform folk dancing of a certain region, from a certain
time, made for a certain type of event, which is usually performed by
certain people.
This definition is quite logical and it is used by ethnographists in
general.
> ritual to bind villagers into the community, I will strongly
> disagree with your characterization of Tango as being
> entirely that of a folk dance (like what your grandfather
> does at the community hall, as an earlier post of yours put it).
Tango is 'tainted'. It was developed in sychron with sound and picture
recording, international media and the general cultural globalisation
process. The beginnings however are quite 'folk-like' even though the later
process had more to do with the fashion dances of the 20th century. However,
the folk-like element in the development remained (that's why it isn't that
international like salsa which also has it's roots in folk dancing, but it
is definitely not a folk dance), probably because the world left Argentina
with its tango alone for quite a while.
> As far as I know, tango has operated as a competitive free
> market of ideas since the inception of the dance, becaues the
> goal wasn't to perfprm to a known standard so much as to
> stand out from other men as superior. Hence, successful
> innovators have always found a ready market in Tango culture.
Yes. But such competition is present in many folk dances as well. In my free
market example I merely suggested that in Hungary we simply have no means to
invite maestros every day, thus local teachers have a higher status in the
eyes of the community.
> OTOH, the folk dancing I have the most familiarity with,
> English country dancing and its French, Spanish and American
> derivatives, had a very different imperative as a cultural
> institution: a way for members of communities to have fun
> together and affirm their bond with each other. Hence,
> English country dancing values fitting in over standing out,
> and in large part what they do now closely resembles how the
> dance was performed in the 18th century.
> IOW, we have historical reenactments, not something that
> meets a cultural need beyond providing casual entertainment.
> >it
> >follows a different 'evolution' now, where a very small number
> >influential masters develop the dance to their (and their
> consumers') own taste).
See above. That is no real folk dancing - it is out of it's original
context. You simply reenact those dances. However the secondary evolution of
such dancing is an interesting subject for study: using folk dances - out of
its original context - as a folk dance of it's own in a new context...
> Professional innovators have driven change in Argentine Tango
> for the last 90 years at least:
>
> -- In the 1910's: El Cachafaz
> -- In the 1940's: Petroleo
> -- Today: Naveira/Salas/Frumboli
Well. Just because these people were idols, they did not actually _teach_
their generation of tango dancers. This is a huge difference. There are
legendary musicians, poets (I don't know any dancers, but dancing is very
ephemeral in a folk context to be registered by ethnographists) in folk
dancing who did influence the ways of their genre, but they did not
_dictate_ (they weren't considered 'the only true source').
Ciao,
Aron
Ciao,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.milonga.hu/
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:29:29 -0600
From: "A. Taniche" <ataniche@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Maestros paying at milongas
On Mar 15, 2005, at 2:00 AM, aron@MILONGA.HU wrote:
> No. You cannot sever it from the heritage, I never said that.
Obviously you also tend to mix up something what _present day_
>Argentina is trying to mix up: the past and the present. Tango as an
'urban folkdance' ceased to exist in 1955.
Excuse me sir, but if you are meaning to be serious with this, then you
are an idiot, an ignorant and offensive idiot, and I beg forgiveness to
the ones who get scare when we speak mano a mano in the ways of tango
culture.
And yes, you did say what you say you didn't say. What you call present
day is the baile de payasos performed by arrogant and asstighted
ex-gypsies without a tent.
Respect, sir, respect, that's all the tango and my people ask.
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:27:36 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas
An insult for maestros to pay? Why?? Teachers build their reputation at
dances. They should also be VERY concerned with building the community.
Dancers aren't going to patronize teachers who don't go to dances for very
long. If a teacher isn't going to dances, that teacher also isn't going to
be a good dancer for very long.
I guess the difference is if there are competing milongas. Then maybe an
organizer will try to get the better dancers to his or her milonga.
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis,
> Maestro's and well known teachers & performers are always welcomed at
> Woodstock Tango Milongas as my guests.
> (I also host tango organizers gratis - altho many pay anyway-
> and they
> usually extend the same courtesy to me. As a result, we announce and
> promote each others programs within our own communities and
> everyone is
> better off).
>
> For me, the bottom line is building the tango community... the few
> dollars you sacrifice by inviting esteemed dancers is more
> than made up
> by good will and the opportunity to showcase great dancing. From a
> business viewpoint, it also doesn't hurt if your milonga gets a
> reputation as attracting fantastic dancers!!
> In any case, I would never ask a maestro to pay... I think it
> is an insult. We have a relatively small community here, and
> yes, I am always
> struggling to make ends meet. If I can cover my expenses (
> and I don't
> always...) I am happy.
> Then again, we don't have large numbers of teachers in the area.
> However, I know at least one organizer in NYC who has an
> extensive guest
> list as she recognizes the value of having prominent dancers
> attend her
> events.
> Ilene
>
> www.WoodstockTango.com
> Tango Horse Productions
>
>
>
>
> Ecsedy Áron wrote:
>
> >Dear Hélène,
> >
> >
> >
> >>there is a subject I would like to have your ideas about:
> >>whether maestros should or not pay when going to milongas ?
> >>Hélène (geneva, Switzerland)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >This question is usually one of business strategy rather
> than customs.
> >
> >If a maestro is present, there is a higher probability that
> (at least)
> >his/her students will be more willing to attend the milonga, which
> >means more income. If several maestros are present that also
> gives the
> >place a certain quality.
> >
> >If a maestro doesn't have to pay for the milonga, obviously he'll
> >probably feel honored and also more motivated to attend.
> >
> >On the other hand, if there aren't enough guests to operate
> the milonga
> >without financial problems, or milonga attendance is almost
> completely
> >independent from maestros being present or not, the question may be
> >raised: is it worth it?
> >
> >In Hungary we have a very small tango community compared to most of
> >Europe. Also, we cannot charge high prices at milongas (prices are
> >between 1.2-2
> >EUR) because people aren't really willing to commit too much.
> >Because of this every single ticket counts. We have several
> people teaching
> >here, but it would cause some commotion to actually decide
> who is considered
> >a maestro and who is not. With an average number of 40-50 people at a
> >milonga inviting the 10+ people teaching here for free may
> be a bit of
> >luxury.
> >Even like this most milongas are in the red and are
> maintained as the hobby
> >of the organizer.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Aron
> >
> ----------
> be sent to
> the command
> >"subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> ----------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> ---------
>
>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:39:04 -0800
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Maestros paying at milongas
--- Ecsedy Aron <aron@MILONGA.HU> wrote:
> What I said is: present day Argentines are using the
> tango heritage
..........
> They also change it. And they aren't changing it for
> their OWN sake, but for the sake of those who
> actually purchase tango en masse: the foreigners.
You are probably correct that there are people who do
this, but I wouldn't make such a judgement about all
Argentine teachers.
For the most part, teachers of Argentine tango do not
make a lot of money, it is not a commodity which they
are trying to capitalize on, they teach tango because
they love tango. Whether they be teachers from
Argentina or elsewhere.
Tango is about a feeling, it is about the music, it is
about connecting with your partner. It is these
things that can be universally understood. When you
go to Buenos Aires you begin to understand where the
feeling came from. The feeling of tango reveals
itself in the streets of Buenos Aires, in the faces of
the people, in the way they talk, in the stories that
they tell. It is something that many of us relate to,
it is what draws us to the tango.
And it is the recognition of this feeling that draws
us to each other, one dancer to the other. You may be
from one country and I from another, but when we hear
the tango, when we understand this feeling and I look
at you and there is this recognition, ah yes you feel
it too, and we dance together each one revealing
something of themselves to the other - this is tango.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:57:50 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas (REPOST)
Ecsedy Aron wrote:
>Dear Chris,
>>Ecsedy,
>My first name is Aron. Hungarian naming convention puts family name first.
>:)
I apologize Mr. Ecsedy, I've made that mistake before ...
>>Maestro means "master". Teaching tango does not a Maestro make.
>>Put it this way: a high school physics teachers don't need
>>advanced degrees in quantum theoretical physics to do a great job.
>>
>>Like most other human endeavors, maestro-hood probably
>>requires something like 6 to 12 hours of practice every day
>>for at least 10 years to attain, and should remain far out of
>>reach for talent free and/or less dedicated persons.
>>
>Here you might get into trouble with the definition. Who I am (or are you)
>to decide?
Here, I'm not deciding. I'm just saying that you have to pay your dues
and put in your practice time to get the status before being considered.
>Also, IMHO it is usally the community who decides who is a master.
Yes, but find me the guy considered a "master" of Argentine tango after
only a year or two of dancing tango.
>Not to mention that your definition is somewhat strict. Many of whom you'd
>definitely call 'master' would fail at it. (especially some of the ladies)
>
>>In short, charge the local teachers as they couldn't possibly be Maestros.
>>
>_Local_ teachers? You must be from the US. (Brits tend to be culturally more
>sensitive - actually, my comment is true for any English speaking country)
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound dismissive of them. I can believe many of
them are quite good at what they do.
>You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what it is to be from a country with a language
>spoken by only as many people you have in downtown NY (with no similar
>lanugages anywhere on this planet), where an average monthly salary wouldn't
>be enough for half a flight ticket to BsAs, and where the above 40 age group
>(the main consumers of tango in Europe) has higher unemployment and lot
>lower income than the pre-30s. (unlike in Western Europe - or any other
>place where market economy is not a 15 year-old novelty)
OK. On the other hand, consider the situation where a market economy
has been the norm for centuries. One phenomenon we experience is the
steady application of hyperbole, until a term like "maestro" becomes
rather empty of meaning.
We get people calling themselves 10th degree black belts in a 1 man
school of martial arts, where someone who played the part of a farm
wife in a movie is taken as an authority on farming, and so on.
>The teachers I was referring to are either professional dancers/teachers of
>other styles as well, with 12+ years of experience or they are milongero/as
>who lived and danced abroad and/or were assisting meastros for quite a while
>there. Here, the knowledge of these 'teachers' may be as good as any
>Argentine maestro (which I presume you were referring to) over there ...
>
>The masters you were referring to are truly rare guests here. Thus, the whole
>idea of giving exemption to 'maestros' is stupid, as the only maestros who
>come here the ones we invite. (we usually pay them for that, and not make
>them pay...) IMHO: the question of charging Gavito, Salas, Herrera, Veron, etc. is simply
>a nonsense - these people are not everyday guests in Geneva or in Europe
>anywhere. If they would be, the organizer would probably keep a table (with
>personal bodyguard and limousine service included) reserved for him at all
>times....
Not sure if I would put Salas and Herrera in the same company as Gavito
and Veron, but for all of those people and many others, we'd be paying
for them to come in rural Iowa as well.
>Personally I do have an idea what the international community would call a
>master. In tango, non-argentines have very little possibility (even if the
>knowledge is there) of reaching that status due to the 'Northern longing for
>exoticism' I already wrote about on the list and also because of the strong
>Argentine propaganda. The combination of the two ensures several decades of
>further monopoly. (reminder: actually there is no such thing as Argentine -
>over 4/5 of the population were European immigrants;
>
I agree that as a matter of general principle, non-Argentines should
have equal opportunity for Maestro status. From more than one point of
view, this isn't likely to happen any time soon. Sort of like sparkling
wine is only Champagne when it comes from the Champagne region of France
(a matter of law, rather than custom actually).
Then again, the tango community in BsAs is several times the next
largest in the world. That may change in the next 10 years though.
>reminder: Salas openly
>admitted that the tango he is teaching was _invented_ by him (his words) -
>of course based on what he saw - which could have been done by any dancer
>with enough motivation to do so; reminder: tango as the majority of us know
>it (and admire it) is no longer the tango danced in the past (the 'masters'
>are dancing something different) and definfitely not the one from the
>beginnings; reminder:
Every art changes over time, and must change with the generations. One
couldn't say that Petroleo's tango was better than that of the Guardia
Viejo, but everyone (with the benefit of hindsight of course) would
agree that it was admirably suited to its situation.
>over 95% of tango consumers are NOT Argentines (thus
>consumer needs are not Argentine, thus the product (tango) is no longer
>based on Argentine culture, thus methods, content and ideals will follow if
>they haven't did that already (see 'alternative' tango, tango-meditation,
>the anti-machismo movement in tango etc...);
To some extent they have. Then again, a lot of what good local teachers
do is break the code for their students.
A side note WRT the anti-machismo movement in tango: much of the
current popularity of tango almost certainly results from the
opportunity to address the parts of feminism that don't please men and
women all that much, at least
>reminder: tango is not a
>popular dance anymore (since 1955) - it has transcended into a 'ballroom
>dance', just with no international organization to set rules for it -, this
>way it ceased to be a folkdance which evolves by itself (=common people):
If your definition of "folk dance" describes something passed down
without much change between generations, existing as a ritual to
bind villagers into the community, I will strongly disagree with
your characterization of Tango as being entirely that of a folk
dance (like what your grandfather does at the community hall, as
an earlier post of yours put it).
As far as I know, tango has operated as a competitive free market
of ideas since the inception of the dance, becaues the goal wasn't
to perfprm to a known standard so much as to stand out from other
men as superior. Hence, successful innovators have always found
a ready market in Tango culture.
OTOH, the folk dancing I have the most familiarity with, English
country dancing and its French, Spanish and American derivatives,
had a very different imperative as a cultural institution: a way
for members of communities to have fun together and affirm their
bond with each other. Hence, English country dancing values
fitting in over standing out, and in large part what they do now
closely resembles how the dance was performed in the 18th century.
IOW, we have historical reenactments, not something that meets
a cultural need beyond providing casual entertainment.
>it follows a different 'evolution' now, where a very small number influential
>masters develop the dance to their (and their consumers') own taste).
Professional innovators have driven change in Argentine Tango for the
last 90 years at least:
-- In the 1910's: El Cachafaz
-- In the 1940's: Petroleo
-- Today: Naveira/Salas/Frumboli
Nothing has changed. The apportunity for men to stand out from other
men to women has changed only in degree, not so much in kind. Tango
has raw sex appeal, because it evolved in the "meat market", not just
because many of the first tangueros worked in slaughterhouses, but
because decisions about who was going to sleep with (and in some cases,
marry) whom were made on the dance floor. And that gets affirmed every
time a woman says the workd "Tangasm", as I've heard on more than one
occasion.
Christopher L. Everett
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:22:50 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas (also: development of tango) #2
Ecsedy Aron wrote:
>Continued from a previous mail...
>
>>If your definition of "folk dance" describes something passed
>>down without much change between generations, existing as a
>>
>>
>It is not possible for a folk dance to be passed on without much change.
>Living folk dances (see def. below) are dynamically and gradually changing
>genres. Only because of ethnographist do we believe that folkdances are
>rigid: their data collection is usually just a sample from a very short
>period of time. Of course, you cannot compare the speed of change to tango
>or any other urban dances. Folk dancing is usually the affair of a small
>community, thus there is very little external (cultural) influence, and the
>life in such environments is much 'slower'.
>
>
Exactly my point: during the time of the Guardia Viejo and Golden age,
Tango
was the affair of two cities of millions with 10's of thousands of
participants
interacting, not to mention that Tango needed the social approval of the
European elite to survive.
>'living folk' culture: although modern urban culture calls anything with a
>rural historical background 'folk' however you must know that 'folk music'
>and 'folk dancing' etc. has several categories. The only thing which may be
>called 'folk dancing' is the dancing which takes place at the source of it's
>origin, within the context it was developed and danced traditionally, by the
>people it was developed originally (and the time it is still recent and part
>of the everyday customs).
>
>
So to use Lindy as an example, it was a folk dance in Harlem during the
1930's
but now it dosn't fit the definition. OK, I can live with that.
>Tango is 'tainted'. It was developed in sychron with sound and picture
>recording, international media and the general cultural globalisation
>process. The beginnings however are quite 'folk-like' even though the later
>process had more to do with the fashion dances of the 20th century. However,
>the folk-like element in the development remained (that's why it isn't that
>international like salsa which also has it's roots in folk dancing, but it
>is definitely not a folk dance), probably because the world left Argentina
>with its tango alone for quite a while.
>
<snipped>
>>Professional innovators have driven change in Argentine Tango
>>for the last 90 years at least:
>>
>> -- In the 1910's: El Cachafaz
>> -- In the 1940's: Petroleo
>> -- Today: Naveira/Salas/Frumboli
>>
>>
>Well. Just because these people were idols, they did not actually _teach_
>their generation of tango dancers. This is a huge difference. There are
>legendary musicians, poets (I don't know any dancers, but dancing is very
>ephemeral in a folk context to be registered by ethnographists) in folk
>dancing who did influence the ways of their genre, but they did not
>_dictate_ (they weren't considered 'the only true source').
>
>
But, in this context what's the difference between one of todays teachers
and someone from the past who devised numerous innovations that became
widely imitated nearly immediately? IMO, not much at all. That's the
point I'm trying to make: Tango's evolution happened at varying rates
throughout its history (it had to change with the music anyway) and
and fewer rather than more dancers created the seminal figures and step
sequences that allowed it to remain connected with their times.
Christopher L. Everett
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:49:15 -0800
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas
> I am with you Lois!
> In BA we all pay the entrance fee.That is the way to
> support the milongas .Most of the times we refuse to
> be invited just for the same explanation.
> Is the case when you are the teacher at thus
> milongas
> that ,of course, you do not pay.It is a small world
> the milongas in BA, and everybody knows everybody
> and
> so, we help each other to keep them alive.
> Regards.
> Daniel
> --- Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET> wrote:
>
> > An insult for maestros to pay? Why?? Teachers
> build
> > their reputation at
> > dances. They should also be VERY concerned with
> > building the community.
> > Dancers aren't going to patronize teachers who
> don't
> > go to dances for very
> > long. If a teacher isn't going to dances, that
> > teacher also isn't going to
> > be a good dancer for very long.
> >
> > I guess the difference is if there are competing
> > milongas. Then maybe an
> > organizer will try to get the better dancers to
> his
> > or her milonga.
> >
> > Lois Donnay
> > Minneapolis,
> Daniel Lapadula
> ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Make Yahoo! your home page
>
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:57:24 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas
BA is a very different situation from many parts of the US or Europe,
certainly worlds apart from our tango outpost here in the country....
Having a maestro visit our area is a very big deal, so, for me, it is a
sign of respect when one is in the area, to invite him/ her as my guest.
I.
Daniel Lapadula wrote:
>>I am with you Lois!
>>In BA we all pay the entrance fee.That is the way to
>>support the milongas .Most of the times we refuse to
>>be invited just for the same explanation.
>>Is the case when you are the teacher at thus
>>milongas
>>that ,of course, you do not pay.It is a small world
>>the milongas in BA, and everybody knows everybody
>>and
>>so, we help each other to keep them alive.
>>Regards.
>>Daniel
>>--- Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>An insult for maestros to pay? Why?? Teachers
>>>
>>>
>>build
>>
>>
>>>their reputation at
>>>dances. They should also be VERY concerned with
>>>building the community.
>>>Dancers aren't going to patronize teachers who
>>>
>>>
>>don't
>>
>>
>>>go to dances for very
>>>long. If a teacher isn't going to dances, that
>>>teacher also isn't going to
>>>be a good dancer for very long.
>>>
>>>I guess the difference is if there are competing
>>>milongas. Then maybe an
>>>organizer will try to get the better dancers to
>>>
>>>
>>his
>>
>>
>>>or her milonga.
>>>
>>>Lois Donnay
>>>Minneapolis,
>>>
>>>
>>Daniel Lapadula
>>ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Make Yahoo! your home page
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Daniel Lapadula
>ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:38:41 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Maestros paying at milongas (also: development of tango) #1
Ecsedy Aron wrote:
>Dear Chris,
>
>>>My first name is Aron. Hungarian naming convention puts family name first.
>>>
>>I apologize Mr. Ecsedy, I've made that mistake before ...
>>
>Only a few nations use it that way, so never mind.
>
OTOH, in the US exists a minor tradition of men calling each other by
their last names, so its not an insult even in the US.
>>>>Maestro means "master". Teaching tango does not a Maestro make.
>>>>
>>your dues and put in your practice time to get the status
>>before being considered.
>>
>>Yes, but find me the guy considered a "master" of Argentine
>>tango after only a year or two of dancing tango.
>>
>This is the usual problem of good marketing ('star making'). If someone is
>able to sell himself as master to a community, then he will be considered so
>- independently from his merits.
>
>Of course, true knowledge usually recieves the due admiration.
>
>Self-appointed masters without adequate training have a very week status, as
>they are only considered masters by beginners... Those who know better will
>leave very soon.
>
>>>You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what it is to be from a country with a
>>>language spoken by only as many people you have in downtown NY (w/ no
>>>
>>>similar lanugages anywhere on this planet), where an average monthly
>>>salary wouldn't be enough for half a flight ticket to BsAs, and where
>>>
>>>the above 40 age group (the main consumers of tango in Europe) has
>>>higher unemployment and lot lower income than the pre-30s. (unlike
>>>
>>>Western Europe - or any other place where market economy is not a 15
>>>year-old novelty)
>>>
>>OK. On the other hand, consider the situation where a market
>>economy has been the norm for centuries. One phenomenon we
>>experience is the steady application of hyperbole, until a
>>term like "maestro" becomes rather empty of meaning.
>>
>I believe, you mean that you'll have so many people teaching that the
>special meaning of a master loses it's meaning.
>
Actually no. This is the issue of marketing and hyperbole leading to
declining standards. Consider the phenomenon of the American pop singer,
Britney Spears. By any definition her singing talent is at best mediocre
(she has to use an electronic gizmo to stay on pitch), and and her dance
performance barely passable.
IOW, we can find many, many women more talented in the song and dance
department. But ... she was at one point in her life cute and obedient
(up to and including plastic surgery), and that allowed a record company
to market an image of her as a star.
Granted that at this point she appears to have reached has been status,
but she should never have been allowed to attain the status of "star",
and the only thing that made it possible was the decline of standards
visited upon the US by decades of unrestrained hyperbole.
>Unfortunately, this is something very hard to control. Since tango has no
>competitive system, no certification system - very probably the genre
>wouldn't even tolerate such control mechanisms -, it is very hard to
>accertain the exact level of knowledge of a dancer or teacher. It is usually
>the market which decides.
>
Certification systems tend to fossilize/formalize things. Some ballroom
dance guy wrote a lovely essay on how rules and standards take the dance
out of the domain of personal expression into the domain of dancing with
the intent to please external authorities.
>>We get people calling themselves 10th degree black belts in a
>>1 man school of martial arts, where someone who played the
>>part of a farm wife in a movie is taken as an authority on
>>farming, and so on.
>>
>Yes. The small community 'hero'. :))) I know that phenomenon too.
>
>Actually, such an effect also appears in the work of international
>organizations: did you know that there is an all international world
>championship in tango argentino with vals, milonga and tango (both social
>and fantasma) organized by IDO (www.ido-online.org) ? The present world
>champion is Hungarian... Where would you put that? The guy isn't bad at all,
>but his title may not worth that much on the international tango market. It
>sells his lessons over here all right...
>
Yes, he went out and danced to please the judges and ended up selling
out his own authority as a dancer to the IDO. Now he owes the IDO for
one world championship, and for his sins his fate will remain bound to
them for at least a while.
This willingness to "be a good boy and follow the rules" creates a
different brand of inauthenticity, IMO. also, He can't afford to
change his mind about the worth of the IDO, as he's been bought and
paid for in the coin of status.
>>Not sure if I would put Salas and Herrera in the same company
>>as Gavito and Veron, but for all of those people and many
>>others, we'd be paying for them to come in rural Iowa as well.
>>
>Hmmm.Veron is usually frowned upon my many. I can guess the reasons, but
>could you please give details why?
>
I must admit that I was expressing my personal taste. Speaking only
for myself, I like a certain quality of elegance I see in Veron's
movement, at a level few dancers attain. Even if you must dismiss
him as a stage dancer, you can't argue against the idea that we can
learn something from him about moving with grace and restrained power.
But, "de gustibus non dispudandum" (Latin for "you can't ardue taste").
>>I agree that as a matter of general principle, non-Argentines
>>should have equal opportunity for Maestro status. From more
>>than one point of view, this isn't likely to happen any time
>>soon. Sort of like sparkling wine is only Champagne when it
>>comes from the Champagne region of France (a matter of law,
>>rather than custom actually).
>>
>Yes, but Champagne is made only in Champagne because they very effectively
>protected their status (it is true for all French wine producing regions).
>However the same quality of sparkling wine using the same methods can be
>manufactured up to even higher standards anywhere else on the planet... The
>only difference will be a snobbish custom of the name (and hence several
>times the price).
>
Yes, but this has probably led to the dimunition of the names of the
wine producing regions as "brands" and the rise of the names of varietals
in their stead. I haven't heard anyone refer to "a Bordeaux" for a
decade at least.
>This is exactly which I was referring to by 'monopolization'...
>
However, I don't think it will take several decades to outgrow. We only
need one Greg LeMond. Lance Armstrong will follow soon after ...
>>A side note WRT the anti-machismo movement in tango: much of
>>the current popularity of tango almost certainly results from
>>the opportunity to address the parts of feminism that don't
>>please men and women all that much, at least
>>
>As you might have guessed: Such an evolution is inevitable in any dance
>without a control system. And this is one of the appeals in tango - it gives
>a certain freedom you don't find in international ballroom for instance.
>
Amen to that brother.
Christopher L. Everett
