1833  Melina dances Salon

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:14:21 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Melina dances Salon

Melina says :

"Tango is such an individual dance, that every dancer (given time, practice
and
inspiration) may develop his own style. Sergios definition of (for example)
Tango de Salsn may differ from the one of Manolo or the one of Gustavo...
And
this is one of the characteristics of Tango: there is no standardization!"

I totally agree. Most people go through some period when they try to imitate
their favorite instructors, but as Melina points, tango is a very individual
dance and eventually your personality comes out in the way you dance.

As to Carmencita Calderon's anecdote I also agree that probably Canyengue
and Orillero refer to the same tango style.

Oriya (Orilla) means the border - in this case the border or periphery of
the city.
Canyengue means "arrabalero" inhabitant of the periphery, that of low social
condition and by extension a form of dancing tango proper of those people.

>"If I have to define our (mine and my partners) style, I have to think

hard: We
dance chest to chest with traditional elements like the Ocho Cortado (Tango
Milonguero?). We use elegant adornments (Tango de Salsn?), Alternaciones
(Tango
Nuevo?) and we also dance a Voleo or a Gancho if we've got the space (Tango
Fantasia?). Well, and of course everything depends on the music. We adapt
our
dance to the different of orchestras: rustic to Orquesta Tipica Victor,
elegant to di Sarli or dynamic to D'Arienzo, but we would not dance to
Piazzola!"

To dance chest to chest is not the patrimony of 'milonguero'. It is a
misconception to believe that Salon is danced only in open embrace.
Salon is generally danced in close embrace but the embrace may be losened
and opened somewhat to allow for other figures.

I looked at the videos of Melina and her partner dancing. I wish to
congratulate you both as you are excellent dancers.

The style that you dance is what I call Salon Style. It has very little of
anything else. The use of close embrace or an isolated ocho cortado does
not make it Milonguero at all.

It is good to adapt the dance to the woman, the music, the available space,
and the mood at the moment.

Melina please continue to dance as you do because it is very beautiful.
Thank you for the chance to see the videos.

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:16:00 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Re: Melina dances Salon

Tom,
I am glad to see that finally there is somebody that understands
what I am talking about.

I had a discussion with Cacho Dante about the subject. He told me how nice
your group si developing.

I think that it would be of interest (and perhaps controversial as well) to
compare relative growth of tango communities such as yours "Milonguero
Style" versus the others " Salon, Stage Style).

Un abrazo, Sergio
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Melina dances Salon

>
> In Europe, the term Salon Style is used similar to Buenos Aires i.e:
> simply "social style". In the US, the terms Salon and Milonguero are
> used to distinguish within the social styles.
>
> However, I think most of the Salon dancing in the US is really
> Salon/Fantasy, using lots of boleos, ganchos, big movements, very
> open embrace. I think many of the teachers came from Ballroom, and
> likewise many of the students, so they have an image of tango as big,
> open figures.
>
> Also, 3/4 or more of the traveling teachers are first and foremost
> stage dancers.
>
> I think this US version of salon-style is splitting:
> - Most of the teachers still seem stuck on Salon/Fantasy or Nuevo.
> - Long-term salon dancers who learned to dance open, never went to
> Buenos Aires, and are either afraid or incapable of dancing close.
> - A minority who have traveled to Buenos Aires. They have seen that
> salon style is actually danced close, and have learned to distinguish
> fantasy/nuevo from social salon.
>
> I don't see the actual dancers agreeing or even changing. Rather, new
> dancers com
>
> The term Milonguero has traditionally had some polemics attached to
> it. I think that was primarily due to hostility against Susana Miller
> on the part of a few people, and from some salon/fantasy people, who
> felt threatened by the milonguero style.
>
> There is more tolerance these days, mainly because the salon/fantasy
> people who were so offended before have finally had the opportunity
> to go to Buenos Aires, and see that social tango is almost completely
> close-embrace, whether "salon" or "milonguero".
>
>
> Clearly define milonguero is still relatively uncommon in Europe &
> the US. Specific cities (Portland, Seattle, Denver, Ann Arbor,
> Atlanta) have a lot of milonguero; most cities, including New York,
> Chicago, Detroit, LA, have very, very little milonguero.
>
> When I do my milonguero festivals in Denver that focus on the
> milonguero, I get lots of individual attendance from various
> communities, which adds up to 250-350 people, but I recognize that I
> am skimming the minority who have visited Buenos Aires and have
> fallen in love with this style.
>
> I'm defining a niche, and serving it well.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Tom Stermitz
> https://www.tango.org/
> stermitz@tango.org
> 303-388-2560
>

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:45:12 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Melina dances Salon

>Tom,
>...
>I had a discussion with Cacho Dante about the subject. He told me how nice
>your group si developing.

Denver has all styles.

Most of the local teachers only or primarily teach open-embrace
salon, fantasy or nuevo, not milonguero. A few teachers do both open
and close-embrace.

However in Denver, most of the experienced dancers choose their style
appropriate to the situation. When on stage or in practice they dance
fantasy or nuevo; at a milonga they dance close salon or milonguero.
Only a few experienced dancers choose to primarily dance Fantasy or
Nuevo.

Also, most dancers in Denver follow the line of dance, and use the
concept of lanes. Very few are careening around in the middle, and
most of those are people who have never been to Buenos Aires, and
don't take many classes. Some of them are teachers.

So, yes, Denver has a high proportion of dancing that someone from
Argentina would define as social tango, whatever the style.

I have been in communities where hardly anyone dances close, no one
dances milonguero, and the whole dance floor is a mish-mash of
dancers zig-zagging around doing ganchos and leg-wraps, and fast,
acrobatic movements.

>I think that it would be of interest (and perhaps controversial as well) to
>compare relative growth of tango communities such as yours "Milonguero
>Style" versus the others " Salon, Stage Style).

Growth of tango communities has many aspects.

Retention is more important than outreach. I think for most teachers
and communities, retention is probably only 5-10% per year (some
teachers have 0%-1% retention)....i.e. you get in 200 new beginners,
and a year later only 10 or 20 of them are still around.

I think it is worthwhile to investigate and really think about how to
retain people...from their first 6-week series to ongoing dedication,
or from their first 6-months into the community.


Ranked by importance:
(1) Adults must have fun (non-analytic instruction, entertainment, etc)
(2) Social energy must be exciting (attractive, fun other people)
(3) Larger group must be welcoming (not so stratified)
(4) Music must connect emotionally with the person (good teacher or DJ).
(5) Methodology/curriculum must succeed for the men

(A woman's learning process in tango is completely different from the
man's. She can learn so much more easily from privates; The woman's
long-term success/retention depends on whether the men succeed.)

These things are not specifically dependent on a student's primary
teacher, and really have nothing to do with style. They mostly have
to do with the way the community feels to a newcomer.

Only number 4 & 5 relate to teaching methodology or style.


Simple elemental methodology

I am personally convinced that a simple elemental approach,
emphasizing the internal connection, improvisation the rhythm and
music is the best. This works for me and my personality, and I've
developed it over 7 years.


Analytical/structural methodology

I am also convinced that an analytical/structural approach based on
figures is much more difficult for the men to succeed at (again,
women can become good at this based on privates). It takes longer,
but, I recognize that a quality teacher with a good personality and a
good methodology can succeed with this.

Getting them to quit.

The thing that turns off students the most is if all they get in
class is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, explain, explain, explain,
analyze, analyze, analyze....The problem is so many of us (teachers)
are analytical, verbal personalities.

Have an observer time the percentage of talk to movement....movement
is rarely above 50%, and it should be 66% to 75%


In the end, I have to say that student success and retention have
more to do with teacher personality and skill than on style or
methodology.

--

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560