2162 Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:52:07 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
On one of the many regional tango websites, you can read the following:
"Tango is a highly improvised dance. Actually, at the advanced levels all
dances are highly improvised. It is only the beginning and intermediate
dancers who struggle and memorize frozen, rigid patterns. That's OK
everyone needs somewhere to start . Its good to have a solid foundation
and then branch out from there. The problem. though, is some people don't
realize tha the steps they learn in beginning lessons are only a
foundation and are not meant to be the end-all, be-all."
I am afraid that I do not see how learning frozen, rigid patterns in
beginning lessons provides a solid foundation from which to branch out. As
Tom Stermitz has pointed out, men typically arrive at their first class
with an ability to navigate. After a few lessons of memorized figures,
they lose all that ability. Why not start out with teaching that
integrates tango directly into walking which is the backbone of tango.
See Daniel Trenner's comments about the basic in tango.
https://www.danieltrenner.com/daniel/ar_basic.html
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:27:06 -0800
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Good point, Stephen. If beginners are memorizing frozen, rigid patterns,
those patterns don't provide much of a foundation, but only lock them into
using boring repetitive figures and they may find it hard to enjoy
improvisational dancing. Thanks for your comments.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 7:52 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
> On one of the many regional tango websites, you can read the following:
>
> "Tango is a highly improvised dance. Actually, at the advanced levels all
> dances are highly improvised. It is only the beginning and intermediate
> dancers who struggle and memorize frozen, rigid patterns. That's OK
> everyone needs somewhere to start . Its good to have a solid foundation
> and then branch out from there. The problem. though, is some people don't
> realize tha the steps they learn in beginning lessons are only a
> foundation and are not meant to be the end-all, be-all."
>
> I am afraid that I do not see how learning frozen, rigid patterns in
> beginning lessons provides a solid foundation from which to branch out. As
> Tom Stermitz has pointed out, men typically arrive at their first class
> with an ability to navigate. After a few lessons of memorized figures,
> they lose all that ability. Why not start out with teaching that
> integrates tango directly into walking which is the backbone of tango.
>
> See Daniel Trenner's comments about the basic in tango.
> https://www.danieltrenner.com/daniel/ar_basic.html
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
> Stephen Brown
> Tango Argentino de Tejas
>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:09:45 -0500
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
The same can be said about any dance. Beginners and Intermediate dancers are never going to be able to learn a partner dance just by telling them to improvise. If we all started out improvising...well, tango wouldn't look the way it does, neither would salsa, swing, etc.
All dance forms have to have a foundation to start. The hard part for any dance teacher is to teach the student to really feel the dance and begin to improvise. Some people will never get it.... they just aren't built that way. So, we can't beat our heads trying to be sure everyone learns how to improvise. Most never will. Being a professional, I know how hard it is to find a good dancer that really feels the dance and can improvise...and like I said....it's the same with EVERY dance.
Nicole
Miami
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:36:59 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
How do you get people to really own a dance.
So they are comfortable & confident with it...
hmm...good question...
.
I really enjoyed reading Stephen's insights into the learning process,
conscious/unconscious competence, etc...
see: https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2001/msg01771.html
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:18:24 +0000
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM writes:
> The same can be said about any dance.
True, but in some dances the patterns really are part of the dance.
In Argentine tango you can dance by walking around the room, but in
International slow waltz you really need to know at least some steps.
> Beginners and Intermediate dancers are never going to be able to
> learn a partner dance just by telling them to improvise. If we all
> started out improvising...well, tango wouldn't look the way it does,
> neither would salsa, swing, etc. All dance forms have to have a
> foundation to start.
The foundation (for tango) needn't be a set of patterns. There'll
probably be patterns included, but it's certainly possible to teach
beginners while teaching very few patterns---I've seen it done.
> The hard part for any dance teacher is to teach the student to
> really feel the dance and begin to improvise. Some people will
> never get it.... they just aren't built that way.
I suspect some teachers just don't know good techniques for
encouraging improvisation. So some students will get it, just by the
teacher teaching some pattern and then saying "now play around with
it", and some won't. I suspect with the right teaching techniques,
almost everyone can get it.
> So, we can't beat our heads trying to be sure everyone learns how to
> improvise.
I think you're right. There are limits---not everyone who wants to
learn tango is going to succeed. However, improvisation isn't
something that most of us seem born with---we each have a collection
of learned strategies---and these can surely be taught.
[...]
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:17:17 -0800
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
It seems to me an over simplification that Argentine Tango can be danced by
walking around the room. From reading a couple of books on the history of
the characters who influenced the Tango dance I would estimate that a dancer
dancing by walking around the room who have not survived on the dance floor
for too long. Popular dances of the mid and late 19th century have all
levels of complexity. I wonder about the fact that Tango(s) is almost always
associated with having a characteristic walking beat and therefore walking
is the way to introduce people to the dance. It is hard to imagine but not
impossible that other music with characteristic walking beat as Tango such
as the cuban Bolero or the danza Habanera one could get away by just dancing
by walking around the room as the previous posting had implied.
Towards the late 1800's in Buenos Aires I read that one basic coreography to
dance Milonga would have consisted in executing 4 steps followed by a
Quebrada in addition to the dancers' interpreation and level of skill. The
style then was called milongueado quebrado and it was used to dance other
popular dances such as the popular polkas, mazurkas, valses, chotis,
habaneras, and to new evolving music with milonga rhythms (Milonga and
Tango).
Tango Greetings,
Bruno
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 05:13:37 +0200
From: Joaquin Concha <j.concha@WEBMAIL.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Good point, Philip.
You perfectly described the teaching method of Copes -
"memorizing frozen, rigid patterns, ... only lock them into
using boring repetitive figures and they may find it hard
to enjoy improvisational dancing".
It's amazing that someone could rate Copes's instructional
video with five stars.
Live and learn.
Joaquin.
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:27:06 -0800
Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM> wrote:
> Good point, Stephen. If beginners are memorizing frozen,
> rigid patterns,
> those patterns don't provide much of a foundation, but
> only lock them into
> using boring repetitive figures and they may find it hard
> to enjoy
> improvisational dancing. Thanks for your comments.
>
>
Look Good, Feel Good www.healthiest.co.za
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:17:25 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:26:16 +0000
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET> writes:
> It seems to me an over simplification that Argentine Tango can be
> danced by walking around the room. From reading a couple of books on
> the history of the characters who influenced the Tango dance I would
> estimate that a dancer dancing by walking around the room who have
> not survived on the dance floor for too long.
Quite true. I wasn't recommending it as a way to dance (or teach). I
was merely contrasting tango to a dance such as International style
slow waltz.
In an empty room, one could walk around the room to slow waltz music,
but that wouldn't be slow waltz. Some dances are composed of specific
figures (and so improvisation is largely in selecting and sequencing
those figures, and to some extent creating new figures in a similar
style to the standardised figures). So learning slow waltz
necessarily includes learning standard figures.
But Argentine tango isn't like that. There are some very common
figures which students ought to be taught fairly soon, I guess (such
as the 8CB), but that's because they happen to have become so common,
and assumed by many teachers to be known. Not because they're
necessary to the dance.
[...]
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:35:46 -0500
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Bruce wrote:
The foundation (for tango) needn't be a set of patterns. There'll
probably be patterns included, but it's certainly possible to teach
beginners while teaching very few patterns---I've seen it done
I've been teaching dance for almost 10 years now, from students from the ages of 4 til 80. No one can be taught the same, and no style of dance can be taught the same. There are fundamental things that tie all of dance together, but the method of teaching changes with each student that you teach.
When I began learning tango, I realized quickly that I would have to learn this dance in a totally different way. I knew that I couldn't learn patterns to understand the dance, but I did need to know basic fundamentals...like what a cruzada was, and an ocho, a molinete, sacada, gauncho, boleo, etc.... When I teach my students, I do teach an 8-count basic movement...and then move on to showing them what these other terminologies are and how to learn how to put them together to create their own tangos (which is in a sense...choreographing). But to just simply say tango is just walking to rhythm...well, then you can do the same to all rhythms and call it a different dance. When I train my children dancers, they "walk" around in cha cha style, salsa style, International rumba style, swing style, samba style..etc. But that's not the dance. It's only an element of it. In International Latin and International Standard, we teach more similar to tango than most people think (at least if you are studying from good teachers and at least in the bronze and silver level)... the "steps" in the syllabus are all pieces of a puzzle, and then you learn to put them together into almagamations. It's different in American style Ballroom and Rhythm, which has a syllabus built off of patterns. I teach salsa the same way too...learn what the elements are, the cores and the foundations...then create your own almagamations, combinations, patterns..etc...whatever you want to call it. What most people know of what the salsa basic is only a small tip to how complex salsa really is. But unfortunately, most new students don't feel like they are accomplishing anything until they see something that looks concrete like a dance move. So having some basic movements helps students to find some confidence and achievement in their learning process. And no, teaching improvisation is not so easy...and if it was there would be a lot more great dancers out there. It's hard to teach adults to break their learning methods. Children yes, it's easy, and it is possible in a few adult dancers...but not very often.
And I have a question for everyone....if tango is all about walking improvisation..then how would the cruzada for the woman come into play? Surely most people would recognize that as one of the most identifying elements of the Argentine Tango....but would that change the concept of just a walking dance...since crossing the ankles is not a natural movement to walking backwards?
Nicole
Miami
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:13:07 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Nicole wrote:
>>>
And no, teaching improvisation is not so easy...and if it was there would be
a lot more great dancers out there. It's hard to teach adults to break
their learning methods. Children yes, it's easy, and it is possible in a
few adult dancers...but not very often.
<<<
This may have been true in the past - but dancers and teachers in the Nuevo
Tango approach (as opposed to the Nuevo Tango "style") have laid analytical
groundwork in approaching the teaching of improvisation in a way that can
greatly speed up the process. In particular, my experience with Mauricio
Castro's work in synthesizing new tango approaches with a variety of other
disciplines confirms that tango improvisation can be learned much more
quickly by the typical tango student that previously supposed (wish I had
found this stuff seven years ago!).
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:42:57 -0000
From: Alex <alejandro.delmonte@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Brian, may I ask, what has been your experience with Mauricio's training
stuff? How have you approached it? Have you been working on it for long? I
also like his analytical take to teaching. Thanks.
Alex
[PS: if you prefer, answering to my email address is fine too.]
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
> This may have been true in the past - but dancers and teachers in the
Nuevo
> Tango approach (as opposed to the Nuevo Tango "style") have laid
analytical
> groundwork in approaching the teaching of improvisation in a way that can
> greatly speed up the process. In particular, my experience with Mauricio
> Castro's work in synthesizing new tango approaches with a variety of other
> disciplines confirms that tango improvisation can be learned much more
> quickly by the typical tango student that previously supposed (wish I had
> found this stuff seven years ago!).
>
> All the best,
> Brian Dunn
> Dance of the Heart
> Boulder, Colorado USA
> 1(303)938-0716
> https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:18:59 -0600
From: Hector <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
On Sunday, January 18, 2004, at 02:00 AM, Joaquin Concha <j.concha@WEBMAIL.CO.ZA> wrote:
>It's amazing that someone could rate Copes's instructional
>video with five stars.
It's more amazing that anybody would take those ratings or the rater seriously.
Hector
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:45:32 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Nicole wrote:
"...All dance forms have to have a foundation to
start.
The hard part for any dance teacher is to teach the
student to really feel the dance and begin to
improvise.
Some people will never get it.... they just aren't
built that way. So, we can't beat our heads trying to
be
sure everyone learns how to improvise. Most never
will. Being a professional, I know how hard it is to
find
a good dancer that really feels the dance and can
improvise...and like I said....it's the same with
EVERY
dance...."
Has any one of the dance instructors on this List ever
told one of their students, or even been tempted to,
that they're not getting it, that "some (most?)
people will never get it" and that, in the immortal
words of Tennessee Williams, they should, in fact,
"find themselves some other form of recreation"? And
how would you go about it? Telling them, I mean? I'm
sure all of us have run into at least one such
individual in our dancing careers. They're out there.
Luda
=====
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 04:25:22 -0800
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Thank you Nichole and Luda for your thoughts on this.
My own thoughts are:
Teach the students (lead and follow) to listen.
If the sudent keeps trying to get the message the teacher keeps trying
teach.
I also say to any teacher out there. If a student does not get this
particular dance are any of you willing to point them to the next step in
their Journey.........
Respectfully.
My2C.
David~
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 10:46 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Nicole wrote:
"...All dance forms have to have a foundation to
start.
The hard part for any dance teacher is to teach the
student to really feel the dance and begin to
improvise.
Some people will never get it.... they just aren't
built that way. So, we can't beat our heads trying to
be
sure everyone learns how to improvise. Most never
will. Being a professional, I know how hard it is to
find
a good dancer that really feels the dance and can
improvise...and like I said....it's the same with
EVERY
dance...."
Has any one of the dance instructors on this List ever
told one of their students, or even been tempted to,
that they're not getting it, that "some (most?)
people will never get it" and that, in the immortal
words of Tennessee Williams, they should, in fact,
"find themselves some other form of recreation"? And
how would you go about it? Telling them, I mean? I'm
sure all of us have run into at least one such
individual in our dancing careers. They're out there.
Luda
=====
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:33:51 -0500
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Luda wrote:
Has any one of the dance instructors on this List ever
told one of their students, or even been tempted to,
that they're not getting it, that "some (most?)
people will never get it" and that, in the immortal
words of Tennessee Williams, they should, in fact,
"find themselves some other form of recreation"? And
how would you go about it? Telling them, I mean?
Actually, Luda, I once had a 14-year old girl in one of my classes (it happened to be a cha-cha class who had absolutely no sense of coordination. She actually tripped over herself and fell 3 times in class, once on top of another student. I finally ended up telling her parents that they should invest their money into something else, like piano or singing, because she was not made to dance. It was hard to do, but she was so pathetic, I felt bad to see her parents spending all this money on dance classes.
Nicole
Miami
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:21:29 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Joaquin Concha wrote:
>Good point, Philip.
>You perfectly described the teaching method of Copes -
>"memorizing frozen, rigid patterns, ... only lock them into
>using boring repetitive figures and they may find it hard
>to enjoy improvisational dancing".
>It's amazing that someone could rate Copes's instructional
>video with five stars.
Joaquin raises a valid point about the Copes video. Unfortunately, nearly
all the videos that offer instruction Argentine tango could convey the
impression that Argentine tango is collection of frozen step patterns. The
Copes video is not an exception.
From the introduction of my video reviews:
<https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#Introduction>
"People who know me, my dancing, my tango friends and my tango mentors are
likely to know the inherent biases that I have in rating instructional
videos even better than I do. I dance social Argentine tango
improvisationally. Moreover, I consider improvistation a basic skill
rather than an advanced skill. Only a few of the video tapes offer
instruction that is designed to develop improvisational skills. Most
notable are those videos by Daniel Trenner and Gustavo Naveira. A few
other videos offer instruction in structure and technique.
Nearly all of the available instructional videos could convey the
impression that Argentine tango is a collection of frozen step patterns,
including those videos that provide instruction in milonguero-style tango.
Although, I do not consider learning rote patterns to be a foundation for
dancing, learning such patterns can provide knowledge that is useful for
dancing. One can look at the best of these videos as being of similar
instructional value as a jazz musician listening to and copying the solos
of great jazz musicians. Consequently, I accept these videos for what
they are rather than what they are not.
Although the Osvaldo Zotto/Mora Godoy videos can convey the impression
that Argentine tango is a collection of frozen step patterns, they remain
a standard by which to judge the quality of other videos. I consider
Osvaldo Zotto to be one of the great dancers of his generation. In
addition, the Zotto/Godoy five-video series is a model of production
values and clarity in instruction."
By the way, I might note that Phil Seyer does not offer the the Copes
video among those he sells<https://www.ilovemusic.com/argvid.htm>, and I
rate the Copes video at 3.5 stars on a 5 star rating
system<video_resources.html#Copes>.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
http;//www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:59:15 -0500
From: John Gleeson <jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
It is the same in the music/instrument teaching world.
I have had several students that I had to tell their parents
that their money was being wasted - either because the
student didn't really want to learn (they were there because
their parents wanted them to learn an instrument) or because
they just had no musical dexterity at all.
BUT - and this is a BIG BUT. Some people get the utmost
satisfaction out of studying/playing (and dancing) even
though they will never be what we might call "accomplished"
musicians/dancers.
If this is what they want to do, and if they have no illusions
about their goals, then they should be greatly encouraged -
we can't all be Louis Armstrong or Fred Astaire. There is
plenty of room for all levels.
The problem usually lies in the mis-setting of expections, not
necessarily in the lack of talent.
Cheers, John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
> Luda wrote:
> Has any one of the dance instructors on this List ever
> told one of their students, or even been tempted to,
> that they're not getting it, that "some (most?)
> people will never get it" and that, in the immortal
> words of Tennessee Williams, they should, in fact,
> "find themselves some other form of recreation"? And
> how would you go about it? Telling them, I mean?
>
> Actually, Luda, I once had a 14-year old girl in one of my classes (it happened to be a cha-cha class who had absolutely no sense
of coordination. She actually tripped over herself and fell 3 times in class, once on top of another student. I finally ended up
telling her parents that they should invest their money into something else, like piano or singing, because she was not made to
dance. It was hard to do, but she was so pathetic, I felt bad to see her parents spending all this money on dance classes.
>
> Nicole
> Miami
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 02:09:06 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Nicole and John, you are brave souls! Of course it
isn't easy to tell someone the truth when it is
unpleasant, and yet it's the only honorable,
professional and humane thing to do. Too bad we don't
see it more.
And you, John, bring up another very relevant point on
the subject:
"BUT - and this is a BIG BUT. Some people get the
utmost
satisfaction out of studying/playing (and dancing)
even
though they will never be what we might call
"accomplished"
musicians/dancers.
If this is what they want to do, and if they have no
illusions
about their goals, then they should be greatly
encouraged -
we can't all be Louis Armstrong or Fred Astaire. There
is
plenty of room for all levels.
The problem usually lies in the mis-setting of
expections, not necessarily in the lack of talent."
Amen. I think it's so important not to lose sight of
this very important fact. So what if somebody doesn't
"get it", the improvisation thing I mean? Or any other
aspect about the dance? The important thing to keep in
mind is, are they having a good time doing it? If so,
everything, and everybody, can go hang! I have danced
with several such. They are more fun to dance with
than guys who are slick and smooth as silk, but always
look like they've lost their best friend. No joie de
vivre, no spark. Who needs it?
The same thing applies in other areas of life of
course. I'm a rotten bridge player, yet I love the
game! To play a few times a year. No contests or
bridge tournaments for me, thank you. Some people
think I have no card sense. I do, I'm just not
fanatical enough about it to memorize all those quirky
little "bridge codes". I simply look them up. So what
if I trump my partner's ace once or twice during an
evening? If I had a wonderful time socializing with my
friends and having a few laughs, while playing bridge,
my evening is made. The rest is irrelevant. Win? Lose?
Who cares?
Luda
=====
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:17:18 +0000
From: "(Russell Bauer)" <raulman@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Nicole de Miami wrote:
> Actually, Luda, I once had a 14-year old girl in one of my classes (it happened
> to be a cha-cha class who had absolutely no sense of coordination. She actually
> tripped over herself and fell 3 times in class, once on top of another student.
> I finally ended up telling her parents that they should invest their money into
> something else, like piano or singing, because she was not made to dance. It
> was hard to do, but she was so pathetic, I felt bad to see her parents spending
> all this money on dance classes.
>
> Nicole
> Miami
>
Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison were told similar things about their academic and intellectual abilities.
Russell
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:57:53 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
I agree with the caveat. A 14 yr-old with no body sense, ie. awkward and
clumsy, is not unusual for the rapid physical growth that occurs at that
age. Learning to dance might have been exactly what she NEEDED. It seems
premature to conclude that she has some inherent failing that will make it
impossible for her to learn. OTOH, if she didn't WANT to be there learning,
then that's probably a show-stopper.
J in Portland
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:26:26 -0800
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
General note to the list:
There is only one word listed below in the way it was used that is on my
border of being taken personally.
The word is "Pathetic". Makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end
(some of you know the impossiblity of this) and raises my hackels.
I am in hopes that this young person has been inspired to at the very least
greatness with in themselves.
My2C
David~
"Sancuary for the badly drawn"
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:58 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
I agree with the caveat. A 14 yr-old with no body sense, ie. awkward and
clumsy, is not unusual for the rapid physical growth that occurs at that
age. Learning to dance might have been exactly what she NEEDED. It seems
premature to conclude that she has some inherent failing that will make it
impossible for her to learn. OTOH, if she didn't WANT to be there learning,
then that's probably a show-stopper.
J in Portland
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:38:11 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
Nicole, bailadora2000@excite.com wrote:
>Bruce wrote:
>The foundation (for tango) needn't be a set of patterns. There'll
>probably be patterns included, but it's certainly possible to teach
>beginners while teaching very few patterns---I've seen it done
>
>I've been teaching dance for almost 10 years now, from students from
>the ages of 4 til 80. No one can be taught the same, and no style
>of dance can be taught the same. There are fundamental things that
>tie all of dance together, but the method of teaching changes with
>each student that you teach.
>...
>... And no, teaching improvisation is not so easy...and if it was
>there would be a lot more great dancers out there. It's hard to !
>teach adults to break their learning methods. Children yes, it's
>easy
>, and it is possible in a few adult dancers...but not very often.
>
>And I have a question for everyone....if tango is all about walking
>improvisation..then how would the cruzada for the woman come into
>play? Surely most people would recognize that as one of the most
>identifying elements of the Argentine Tango....but would that change
>the concept of just a walking dance...since crossing the ankles is
>not a natural movement to walking backwards?
>
>Nicole
>Miami
Nicole, it depends on the teaching methodology.
I find that teaching improvisation is extremely easy, if the teaching
is based on simple elements and the concept of swapping between them.
It is possible to learn improvisation based on splitting up longer
sequences, but that is a more difficult skill to teach.
The cross is a walking step, like all steps of tango. It is very
similar to the natural "together-step", but with the follower's foot
about three inches away, on the other side of her foot. It takes just
a couple songs of practice for 90% of brand new beginners to lead and
follow this. It takes about the same amount of time to learn to
improvise on two walking elements, namely leading the
"together-step" and the "follower's cross".
This is what I use in all my first New-beginner classes. For the
other 45 minutes of class, they practice phrasing to the music, and
rhythmic variations like QQS in tango and waltz.
>Actually, Luda, I once had a 14-year old girl in one of my classes
>(it happened to be a cha-cha class who had absolutely no sense
>of coordination. She actually tripped over herself and fell 3 times
>in class, once on top of another student. I finally ended up
>telling her parents that they should invest their money into
>something else, like piano or singing, because she was not made to
>dance. It was hard to do, but she was so pathetic, I felt bad to
>see her parents spending all this money on dance classes.
>
>Nicole
>Miami
Clay Nelson is fond of pointing out that you shouldn't write off anybody.
Even some of the most uncoordinated, awkward, shy people can find
success in tango. Maybe they'll never become Miguel Zotto stage
stars, but it is not too hard to discover the ability to embrace a
partner, learn some simple tango steps and move with feeling to tango
music.
Smooth, comfortable, confident and musical still take time, but that
is true even for a skillful dancer.
I have noticed that teaching excess vocabulary to beginners slows
down their learning process, and leads more men to quit than women.
The biggest difficulty is how to deal with people whose hygiene or
social skills are so negative, that they cause other students to quit.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:58:46 -0800
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
I found this more important than steps, good dancing, dancing styles,
musicality or being young or old, remember Tango is a hobby.
Elemer Dubrovay Redmond WA
Good advice-------------
https://www.susanamiller.com.ar/editorialing.htm
*****************
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:38:11 -0700 Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
writes:
>
>
> The biggest difficulty is how to deal with people whose hygiene or
> social skills are so negative, that they cause other students to
> quit.
>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:57:59 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango
I have just spent an hour or so trying (almost successfully) to work my way
through and through the "Memorized Patterns and Improvised Tango" thread in
the tango-L archive.
I thought, if I have only one question to ask those contributors, what would
it be? I know. OK, who is in charge of going around freezing the (presumably
beautiful) moves shown by good teachers and great tango masters for the
presumable purpose of giving students some good ideas that they might use in
their own dancing? Please tell me where to find the sonuvabitch, because lots
of pros, for reasons that just may not be 100% innocent, fail to freeze their
examples long enough for the students to get them into their bodies (esp
leaders). Maybe I can get Frosty the tango snowman to come around and do it
behind everybody's back, greatly accelerating the process of learning how to
do a few things fluently and in good form. Am I saying something wrong? Oh, I
am sorry.
If I had only one suggestion to make, what would it be? I know. OK, there are
lots of things one learns: macrame', guitar strumming, to feather a sailboat,
the general theory of relativity (I am afraid I had enough trouble with the
restricted one), oriental languages (I wish), etc. Great variety, true, you
know, large muscle based, small muscle based, purely conceptual,
politics-and-general-human-badness-based. But tango dancing cannot be TotallY
different from EverY single one of those thousands of things. There must be
here and there a tiny bit of commonality, no? You are not going to tell me
tango is just, like, UUUUUUUUUnique, are you? (OK, what about the rest of
you?)
My suggestion, if anybody is still in speaking terms with me, is that you
translate the various proposed ideas about memorizing patterns, and
improvising, and all the rest of it, as closely as possible in terms of
something else that you have successfully learnt. (If nothing, you are
excused. Also, if you pride yourself of possessing no common sense at all,
you will reap no benefit.)
An example? OK. Learn Argentinean Spanish (the best one) by concentrating on
perfect alphabetizing. If you do not know what alphabetizing is, can't help
you, I do not know, either. But I am told it works. At some point diligent
alphabetizers start, suddenly and spontaneously, to express original
thoughts, even speak in verse with lots of lunfardo words. It really works.
Another example? Learn (English style, the best) Viennese waltz by placing
the student inside a huge, fully automated, machine, like those to fix
wrecked cars, that basically MakeS the neophyte dancer go through an
absolutely perfect version of the right movements. After several years of
this, voila', a perfect VW dancer emerges. I have not seen it done exactly
this way, but I have seen great (barely) economically and technologically
feasible imitations. The best that cottage industry can offer.
I have a second question, after all. How come the neophyte leaders lose their
inborn navigational skills as they learn those awful sub-zero patterns? Could
it just, could it just be that the patterns in cause were not only frozen but
also distorted into a Guernica-like jumble by the action of the low
temperatures? Anyway, I am a little skeptical about that inborn ability. OK,
maybe it is there in early childhood; but, if you live long enough, you just
want to trounce those snotty females out there and their dainty escorts. Give
us tangueros the least incentive, and we will be out there, going for the
kill. Everywhere in the world, actually, the best do not dance around the
room; they dance AT the closest neighbouring couple. I think I have got the
hang of it myself.
Cheers,
