1749 Milonguero Style and Milongueros
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:09:08 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Milonguero Style and Milongueros
Dear Pichi,
Had you read the note that Steve Brown wrote about
our previous messages, you would have realized that we were talking about
different subjects all together.
I was talking about Milonguero Style tango and you were talking about
Milongueros in general.
Please kindly let me know if you realize that we were talking about
different subjects. I would like to know your reaction to this.
Best regards, Sergio
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:22:17 +0100
From: Daniel Iannarelli <dmi@OSTEOPATH.THERAPIST.ORG.UK>
Subject: Re: Milonguero Style and Milongueros
Hey, Sergio...
I've been reading both yourself and Pichi's postings, and I'm happy to
say that Pichi has most definitely won the 'debate'.
Pichi is perfectly right about the recent guff you've been posting on
this List. It is a load of guff, so why not leave it alone. I'm sick of
it. If I want to take guff off a banana, I'll go down to the produce
department of my local Safeways. It's been proven - hands down - that
you've some kind of a cockeyed perception about the subject matter!
My first impression of your original posting on this subject was that
you don't know what you're talking about. Now, I'm no expert - by any
means - on Milonguero-style, but the way you were describing things I
initially thought you were 'trying' to describe milonga, then I thought
"no, can't be..." and then I gave up.
And what is all this stuff about describing how to dance in writing???
It's like learning to read by listening to a tape. Does anyone actually
tramp around their living-room plonking their feet into particular
locations while reading a print-off? I think not.
It seems to me three things:
i. ...writing a script on which foot should be placed where, and which
buttock should move to which beat etc etc etc serves only to stroke the
ego of the writer, after all, how many of us actually physically try or
can be bothered to apply the 'steps' we're presented with...?
ii. ...you must be an avid 'Twister' player on lonely nights;
iii. ...perhaps the best place for the type of description of a dance
(that you think lends itself to tango) you presented is in ballroom
dancing. How can you apply a cuckoo structural analysis in the way you
did to a dance that is improvisational in nature?
Anyway, I hope this marks the end of this particular thread. Personally,
I had to write as it seems that the argument is ongoing. I hope I've
helped draw a line under it.
All the best,
Dani
Edinburgh
Scotland UK
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 24 August 2003 02:09
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Milonguero Style and Milongueros
Dear Pichi,
Had you read the note that Steve Brown wrote
about
our previous messages, you would have realized that we were talking
about
different subjects all together.
I was talking about Milonguero Style tango and you were talking about
Milongueros in general.
Please kindly let me know if you realize that we were talking about
different subjects. I would like to know your reaction to this.
Best regards, Sergio
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:14:26 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Milonguero Style and Milongueros
Daniel Iannarelli's posting seems a little bit on the personal side to me,
but I would like to readdress some of the issues in the discussion about
milongueros and milonguero-style tango.
As is well-known, Susana Miller studied the dancing of milongueros. She
came up with a distillation of the common elements that she found in the
individual styles of these milongueros. She embarked on a teaching career
and began calling what she was teaching milonguero-style tango.
According to Tom Stermitz's comments on Susana Miller's website: "We just
finished a week of workshops with Susana Miller, the well-known teacher of
the 'milonguero-style.' ... Susana makes a clear distinction between
'close-embrace', and 'milonguero'. Close-embrace can be many styles,
perhaps salon-style danced closely. Milonguero is more specific, meaning a
close, on the body style, using ocho cortados, little pivoting of the
woman's feet and a lot of triplet rhythms." <https://www.susanamiller.com.ar/editorialing.htm>.
Susana Miller's labeling caught on in the United States, but apparently
nowhere else. In the United States, dancing with the elements that Susana
teaches is now called milonguero-style tango. Dancing with other elements
is not.
Despite the source of Susana's distillation, many milongueros do not dance
what people in the United States call milonguero-style tango. According
to Rick McGarrey's travelogue and other sources, most tango dancers from
Argentina do not use or even understand the style labels that seem to be
in prevalent use in the United States. As I have written elsewhere, in
Buenos Aires and other parts of Argentina, tango is danced in a spectrum
of individualistic or personal styles, and many tango dancers who are
Argentine do not accept a categorization of their own dancing by any broad
stylistic name.
Ironically, the Argentine living in the United States (Sergio) is using
milonguero-style tango in the American sense, while the American living in
Buenos Aires (Pichi) is trying to interpret the term in an Argentine
manner. It is not surprising that confusion would ensue.
Although I do have a webpage with an overview of the styles of Argentine
tango <https://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html>, I am in broad
agreement with sentiments previously expressed by Barbara Garvey and Dan
Boccia that describing the characteristics of various styles of tango
could be misleading. Even the leading exponents of what is often called
nuevo-style tango often refuse to accept such a label.
Where I think a distinction can be made with less controversy is that
there is a difference between social dancing and stage dancing. Even
here, however, different people draw the line differently.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:17:29 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Milonguero Style and Milongueros
I entirely agree with Steven Brown.
The list is formed by about 1030 members with different interests and
diverse degree of dancing skill.
I normally receive an average of ten private E-mails per day asking about
different aspects of tango. My notes to the list reflect the need to discuss
certain topics that I perceive as being misunderstood . The note on boleos
and the more recent notes on what is milonguero style originated that way.
I realize that certain topics are too complicated or too simple for some
members of this forum but it is necessary to use the notes as one reads the
newspaper. We go to what is of interest to us and discard or disregard the
rest.
People that learn to dance in Argentina go to some clubs where they can
dance and take some lessons. Many people know that they are dancing tango,
period. (no particular style). When somebody asks Nito (to bring an example
given by Steven) -what style do you dance- he will answer - tango- or my own
style. This is true. Everyone dances his own style. What Nito knows for sure
is that he does not dance what we understand as 'Milonguero Style' in the
USA.
We have people like Janis that think that I am talking about Milongueros
and start a discussion similar to one that is carried on by two deaf
persons. I talk about one thing and she answers about another. She decides
to ignore Steve's clarification and becomes personal.
I ask for an apology. She decides to send E-Mails all over the world asking
for help. Most people laugh about her and call to let me know what she is
doing. Others like Daniel Iannarelli, who does not know me and who has never
uttered an intelligent thought in this list before feels compelled to come
at the rescue of his friend. It is irrelevant. :))
The important thing is that (IMO) tango has a mother root, the style that we
call Salon in the USA. The style that is danced by most instructors: Nito y
Elba, Osvaldo Zotto, Miguel Zotto, Danel y Maria, Carlos y Alicia, Jorge y
Aurora, Puppy, the late Pepito Avellaneda, Carlos Copes, Milena Plebs and
Ezequiel Farfaro, Orlando Paiva, Rodolfo and Maria Cieri, Fernanda Ghi and
Guillermo Merlo, the Misses, Diego y Carolina, Esther, Mingo and Pablo
Pugliese, the late Lampazo, Gavito, and many others including the great
teachers of today teachers such as Todaro, Petroleo el Cachafaz, etc.
Milonguero style is taught and danced by Susana Miller, Robert Haulk, Tete,
Tommy O'Connell, Cacho Dante.
Some instructors teach an interesting variant called 'del centro' : Daniel
Lapadula and Dolores de Amo.
Some instructors teach both styles like Daniel Trenner.
Another variant of Tango salon is called in the USA Nuevo Tango, it is
taught by Gustavo Naveira, Chicho Frumboli, Fabian Salas, Pablo Veron.
It is important (IMO) to recognize that there is not a pattern or a sequence
of figures or steps. All these styles improvise. Every dancer develops his
own style that reflects his personality. All these styles may be danced to
any Tango Orchestra. Some forms of dancing adapt better to slower music and
some forms to a faster one. Some adapt better to crowded rooms.
They are all extremely interesting forms of dancing Argentine Tango.
There are people that feel offended because we analyze the dance. "True
Milongueros, just dance" will say. I must be a false one because I like to
analyze when I am asked to do so.
As we say " Si quieres ser feliz como me dices, no analices muchacho, no
analices". If you wish to be as happy as you say, do not analyze boy, do not
analyze. I am starting to believe it!
Happy tangos to you all.
PS: There are some very interesting aspects of recent tango history that I
would like to discuss later. The Columbus tango week festival for instance
and others .
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:19:32 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Milonguero Style and Milongueros
From this difference of opinions I see a truism -- Tango is improvised and
it is danced without a fixed pattern (se baila sin un patron fijo).
Milongueros (better tango dancers) are very few -- 1.5 % ( 5 milongueros in
a crowd of 350 dancers). The Milongueros have their own style and are very
creative. Other dancers seem to be happy copying other dancer's steps and
styles. It may be a matter of time when we realize that if we want to become
better dancers like the Milongueros we have to stop copying somebody else's
steps and work on developing our own dance.
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:27:31 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonguero Style and Milongueros
I'll say once more that the current discussion about Milonguero Style vs
Milongueros is a result of instructors making labels for marketing purposes.
I have emphatically argued since 1994 in private and public against the
selling of 'milonguero' tango as not representative of all those who are
considered 'milongueros' by any definition, unless the only milongueros are
Susana Miller (not!), Tete (probably), Chicho (maybe; I don't know him), and
anyone else Susana Miller learns techniques and steps from.
But my main problem is that after 18 years of assiduously asking questions,
reading books and listening to 'chamuyos' at Stanford and Nora's tango weeks
as well as countless private conversations, I still am not clear on what is
a 'milonguero' My original idea from all these sources was that a
milonguero, these days, was someone who danced tango in clubs and milongas
on a very regular basis, to whom tango was important enough to impact
his/her lifestyle, career, or lack thereof, financial decisions, family
life, etc. Lately it seems that is maybe not currently a correct
definition, and maybe never was, or maybe was a decade or two ago but has
changed back to the early 20th century definition with implications of
general loose-living and dissolute habits, although I have never thought
that in those early days it presupposed an easily identified style of
dancing and dance frame. There may well be different but valid definitions
from those inside and outside the tango world.
Before continuing this thread, I would love to hear from those on the list
who feel they have some expertise and experience , about their definition of
a milonguero. I must say that perhaps we might give more credence to the few
Argentinos on the list (postings in Spanish can easily be translated), as my
opinion, or that of most non-natives, are necessarily second-hand. But
please, weigh in anyway -- if we know where certain correspondents are
coming from on this subject we can better understand their postings.
Dreaming of enlightenment,
Barbara
