576  movement vs. dance: refusing, same sex, etc.

Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:05:25 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: movement vs. dance: refusing, same sex, etc.

Estimada/os Listera/os

I've enjoyed your interesting chat on the subjects of social
codes, motivations, rejections etc. Of course, the issues come
up periodically because we all face them and we all have a
personal take. Here is mine.

First, I prefer to do the asking. As much as I can, I like to
match the partner to the music. My picks for Pugliese are not
my picks for Biagi. My picks for milonga are not my picks for
vals. I'm dancing for myself too... Each subtle enjoyment is
unique, and if I'm going to be the chef then I like to choose
the ingredients.

Second, who gives a rip if I choose a same-sex or opposite sex
partner? Those who do are putting form ahead of content. They
are missing the whole point, which I will feebly attempt to make
here. Tango is NOT (only) movement! Tango is FEELING! I think
I've said in the past that traditionally, the 'dance' of tango is
an abstraction of seduction. I still believe that. So then
what, exactly, was goin' on when I was swapping lead and follow
with Alex to a vals? Nobody who was laughing and hooting could
come close to the word 'seduction'! It was a muscular, happy
knife fight. Are those feelings outside the bounds of tango?
You decide for yourself - the movement was tango movement. But
I think that it was NOT tango dance.

I contrast that to my dances with a certain anonymous follower
who has said to me, "You're the only one who seems to dance with
my soul." Those are simple, quiet dances. Those go WAY above
and beyond seduction. Those dances give you joy that you can simply
smell her hair and feel her breathe with you and that you sense the
warmth
of her body and you are SURE that her heart and yours are smiling just
alike because the connection is so profound. "...what, three
minutes of music already over"? After that, sex could easily be a
disappointment. Wither seduction? ...it's there but it is beyond
sexual. My God, if that ain't tango, then I'm in trouble!

My illustrated point to you: tango movement is necessary but
not sufficient for tango dance. Tango feeling does not require
elaborate tango movement. The partners you choose and the
feelings you express are your business. ...just don't assume
that tango movement is tango dance. Lots of the same-sex movement
that I've seen doesn't rise to the level of tango that aware and
alive beginners can enjoy.

OK, fire away! ;-)

un besito para todos,

Frank - Minneapolis



--

Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)

Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 01:39:01 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: movement vs. dance: refusing, same sex, etc.

"Frank G. Williams" wrote:

>My illustrated point to you: tango movement is necessary but
>not sufficient for tango dance. Tango feeling does not require
>elaborate tango movement. The partners you choose and the
>feelings you express are your business. ...just don't assume
>that tango movement is tango dance.....
>
>OK, fire away! ;-)
>

Frank, I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Above all else, to dance tango with someone is to share your feelings, even though they may be unspoken. That is why many men do not want to dance with another man. After all, tango is latino. Tango is macho. Men, being macho, do not really want to show that they have feelings toward another man, even if it is only for three minutes.

Some had mentioned that men dance without each other in the old days. Well, yes. But they were dancing to learn the movements. The real dance happens when they dance with women.
This can be a coincident, but I've dance with a couple of ladies from a group of followers of a female teacher. The teacher often dances with her female students. For the few times that I danced with these ladies, try as I might, I could not develop any connection with them. It could be me, but then again.....

Christian wrote about his experience dancing with a female lead. Lucky you. I dearly love to dance more the part of the follower. However, other than with a visiting teacher, I have not had success doing that. I love to find a female partner who would lead me in a dance (in practicas for now, until I can really dance).

Tango connections to everyone.

Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 03:23:30 -0700
From: Benjamin Koh <benkoh@STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: movement vs. dance: refusing, same sex, etc.

Tanguero Chino wrote:

>

<snip>

> Above all else, to dance tango with someone is to share your feelings,
> even though they may be unspoken.

True. It's quite easy to sense your partner's mood during a dance. I
haven't met anyone with "poker feet" yet :-)

> That is why many men do not want to dance with another man. After all,
> tango is latino. Tango is macho. Men, being macho, do not really want
> to show that they have feelings toward another man, even if it is only
> for three minutes.

On the contrary, men do not often dance with men today because the
current tango fad is male-female dancing. Being Latino or macho has
nothing to do with it. When tango was in its infancy, it was still
Latino and "macho", but it was first danced solo by a man, than
exclusively between men - to show off and/or win the affections of
women, who were scarce at that time.

Some of these men *did* have feelings towards one another - in fact it
was in an attempt to suppress the homosexual male population that the
government of Buenos Aires decided to encourage female prostitution, in
the hope that the increased availability of women would "educate" the
homosexual men (who were becoming too visible in this promiscuous
dance). This move backfired, as the gay population went underground into
the brothels instead. There, the tango became a part of male-female
dancing also, and today's pimp/whore caricatures were born.

> Some had mentioned that men dance without each other in the old days.
> Well, yes. But they were dancing to learn the movements. The real
> dance happens when they dance with women.

As I mentioned above, in the beginning the "real dance" was done by a
man alone, then between men. Women had no part of it until the
definition of the "real dance" changed, from solo to male-male to
male-female.

> This can be a coincident, but I've dance with a couple of ladies from a
> group of followers of a female teacher. The teacher often dances with
> her female students. For the few times that I danced with these ladies,
> try as I might, I could not develop any connection with them. It could
> be me, but then again.....

Given the tiny sample size on both sides (one leader and a few
followers) it is difficult to pinpoint where the mismatches lie. More
often than not the weaknesses are in both halves of the dancing couple.
Only if many different leaders, all competent, have trouble connecting
with these followers could one come to any sort of conclusion that the
followers are in need of improvement. Likewise for the followers
commenting on particular leaders.

> Christian wrote about his experience dancing with a female lead. Lucky
> you. I dearly love to dance more the part of the follower. However,
> other than with a visiting teacher, I have not had success doing that.
> I love to find a female partner who would lead me in a dance (in
> practicas for now, until I can really dance).

There is a simple way to dance the part of the follower: take a class as
a follower! While it may not be much fun, it will give you a deep
appreciation of what beginning followers go through with leaders who
can't lead, step on their feet, tell them they're doing it wrong etc.

A lot of things become clear when your leader tries to lead something -
and you don't feel anything. You might get scolded for not following,
but then you think: there wasn't any lead! You will suddenly become much
more sympathetic to the plight of followers. How do they put up with all
this, you wonder.

More advanced classes would be better in terms of leader capability, but
then you'd be unfairly holding the leaders back (because you can't walk,
your ochos are lousy, your balance is poor etc).

It sounds like torture, but for myself, I have found dancing the
opposite role (follower) to be a lot of fun. At the least, it's a useful
technical exercise to understand what the lead feels like from the other
side, and when dancing with a competent lead it adds a new dimension to
dancing. It's also (for me) a lot less work - I just close my eyes and
listen to the music...

There are additional possibilities to the exchange of lead and follow
roles: the embrace need not change, and the exchange can occur during a
dance. I was fortunate to dance with a lady who was very accomplished in
both roles, and during one dance I almost felt like she was back-leading
me, because it was much easier to move in certain directions. After the
dance, when I made this comment, she admitted that she had stolen the
lead.

I enjoyed that dance very much, though I was somewhat confused when I
didn't have full control of where we were going. I would not recommend
doing this with someone who is not aware of the possibility of a
mid-dance role reversal! Not everyone who can both lead and follow wants
to do both in the same dance - or with the same person. There are
dancers I like to follow but don't like to lead, and vice versa. Be very
careful when stepping outside today's established tango boundaries!

Benjamin

Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 14:35:02 +0200
From: CLIMENTI Dominique <cli@UBP.CH>
Subject: Re: movement vs. dance: refusing, same sex, etc.

IMHO tango is not a dance of seduction; it's a GAME of seduction. Don't
forget it's about seduction, but don't forget too that's "only" a
game... Don't take it so seriously... It's a game; it's some thing we
have to enjoy. It's not important how I enjoy dancing, with a woman,
with a man or even with a dog. The only important thing is I enjoy it
and my partner too.

Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:03:49 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: movement vs. dance: refusing, same sex, etc.

Benjamin Koh wrote:

>There is a simple way to dance the part of the follower: take a class as
>a follower! While it may not be much fun, it will give you a deep
>appreciation of what beginning followers go through with leaders who
>can't lead, step on their feet, tell them they're doing it wrong etc.

This is rarely practical because, as has been pointed out earlier in this
discussion, women typically outnumber the men at milongas and classes.

Several months ago, however, I had an opportunity to take a class as a
follower. Fortunately, my leader for the class was a woman who well
understands both following and leading. (I say fortunately because my
previous experiences with following in classes was that I was frequently
thrown around by leaders who did not understand the follower's movements.)
In looking around the room I saw a number of leaders who were throwing
their partners around or were hand leading. I also observed a few who were
leading with their mouths. I find all three to be uncomfortable.

Sexual politics being what they are, my partner and I were able to avoid
the calls for rotation. The men seemed happy not to lead me, and the women
seemed happy not to be led by my female partner.

As a follower, I found the class was mostly oriented toward teaching the
leaders new figures. As a follower who was somewhat competent, I was
forced to content myself with working on improving my technique without
much coaching from the instructors. (I understand this is not a unique
experience.) I worked hard on making proper form with my back steps in
turns, being careful to rotate enough and not fall onto my back leg.
Because my leader is an experienced follower herself, I was able to get
helpful and gracious feedback from her about my movements when I asked.
She also asked me about the lead.

At one point, I grew a little bored with simply repeating the figure and
begin doing an "embellishment." My embellishment did draw attention from
one of the instructors. He asked me if I knew I was lifting my leg up in
the air on certain steps. I said "Yes, I was doing an embellishment, but
apparently it wasn't recognizable as one." A number of people nearby
thought my response was quite funny. The instructor simply said, "Okay, as
long as you know what you are doing," and he walked away.

With best regards,
Steve

Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/

Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:37:49 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: movement vs. dance: refusing, same sex, etc.

CLIMENTI Dominique wrote:

>It's not important how I enjoy dancing, with a woman,
>with a man or even with a dog. The only important thing is I enjoy it
>and my partner too.
>

Sometimes when I listen to tango at home, the music sweeps me up and I invit one of our cats for a dance. My wife and I always have fun in those moments, but the cats would run away at the first chance. How can I teach them to enjoy tango? ;-)

Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 07:21:12 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: movement vs. dance: refusing, same sex, etc.

--- Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET> wrote:

> Sometimes when I listen to tango at home, the music
> sweeps me up and I invit one of our cats for a
> dance. My wife and I always have fun in those
> moments, but the cats would run away at the first
> chance. How can I teach them to enjoy tango? ;-)

Invite Frank over for a visit!

Jai