1733 "Muscle memory" and other useful concepts with confusing names
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:02:41 +1000
From: Gary <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: "Muscle memory" and other useful concepts with confusing names
it seems that around 17/08/03 8:51 AM, Jonathan Thornton wrote (among other
things):
> ... I want to
> address the nonsense that is repeated ad nauseum in social dance classes
> about developing "muscle memory". There is no such thing as "muscle
> memory"! Dancers develop and use *SENSORIMOTOR SKILLS*!
I think these are slightly different concepts, and so the different words
are useful in some situations. Of course, words can mean whatever you want
them to mean, as many discussions in this forum demonstrate. However, I
think these ideas are useful (and I personally find them fascinating).
I have heard it called "movement memory" or "muscle memory", or "getting it
into your body" among others. One definition might be: "acquisition and
retention of sensation that helps a person remember what a given body
movement, position or relationship feels like, so that it can be repeated
without conscious effort."
Like you, I also rebelled against the expression "muscle memory" - "but
muscles have no memory"!
And some teachers hammer the literal meaning - that your muscles remember -
which does not seem to be true from a neuroscience point of view.
However, I now realise it is a very neat shorthand for what it _feels_
like, and so is useful from a teaching and learning point of view. Saying
"you need to develop increased ability in those pathways in your brain which
deal with remembering body positions and movements" is a bit long-winded.
Often, the "muscle memory" idea is contrasted with the over-analytical style
of learning which many of us fall in to. There are some things which simply
require repetitive _doing_ in order to learn - and this can be enhanced by
various mental tools including imagery etc.
And the expression "sensorimotor skills" is far more general - it is about
the skills of bodily awareness in general, including new movements, and is
distinct from memory.
Dance, especially creative dance, also requires "bodily-kinesthetic
intelligence" or "kinesthetic awareness", which has further dimensions
added.
Hope this helps. In the end, the specific words are unimportant (and will be
different in different languages anyway), the concepts probably are
important, but either are only useful if they help us dance!
good tangos to all
Gary
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:07:01 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: "Muscle memory" and other useful concepts with confusing names
On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Gary <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU> wrote:
> it seems that around 17/08/03 8:51 AM, Jonathan Thornton wrote (among other
> things):
>
> > about developing "muscle memory". There is no such thing as "muscle
> > memory"! Dancers develop and use *SENSORIMOTOR SKILLS*!
Gary,
I gave a quick shot without explanation while ranting. So, to
begin with I'll cite Antonio Damasio from his book THE FEELING OF WHAT
HAPPENS, pg 298:
"The term 'sensorimotor skill' refers to the sort of thing you acquire
when you learn to swim, ride a bike, dance, or play a musical instrument.
The learning of such skills involves multiple executions during which the
performance of the task is progressively perfected. You do not learn to
play the violin with one lesson, even if you happen to be the new Heifetz.
It requires multiple trials. On the other hand, you can learn my face and
my name in one shot."
Damasio, a professor of neuroscience, makes clear sensorimotor skills are
precisely what dancers and musicians acquire. I might add it is also what
we all acquire when we learn to tie shoes, get dressed, print, draw, catch
a ball, walk, type, etc. It is not the only thing we acquire when we learn
to dance as dancing is more than acquired sensory motor skills.
'Sensorimotor' emphasizes that the sensory input is as important as the
motor output. Saying it is a skill reminds us that it is an activity of
refined coordination. Memory is certainly involved as the responses
improve based on practise.
> And the expression "sensorimotor skills" is far more general - it is about
> the skills of bodily awareness in general, including new movements, and is
> distinct from memory.
I can't agree that it is "distinct from memory" or that "it is about the
skills of bodily awareness in general". It is about specific motor skills,
that is the brain signaling the muscles to perform actions as well as the
memory of those actions correlated by the sensory feedback necessary to
perform them correctly. Memory is certainly involved.
Are you making a diffuse reference to either "imaging" or "practise in
imagination", or "vivid recall of past performance" that has been used in
coaching competitive athletes? If so, then I've never heard of a dance
instructor giving detailed instruction on how to do that to learn dance
skills. For most people, certainly for me, hearing, "put it into muscle
memory" did not result in any such activity automatically, though I have
done some imaginary practising on occasion. I've heard it claimed that
studies have shown it helps but I've not read the studies and don't know
how good they are.
> Dance, especially creative dance, also requires "bodily-kinesthetic
> intelligence" or "kinesthetic awareness", which has further dimensions
> added.
What added further dimensions? I'm afraid this sentences doesn't reveal
anything. "bodily-kinesthetic intelligence"? What other kind(s) of
kinesthetic intelligence would you be excluding and why? What is the
"kinesthetic awareness" required by dance, especially by creative dance,
and what is it's role in memory and how does that differ from sensorimotor
skill? Why do you find it necessary to cite "bodily-kinesthetic
intelligence" but don't explain how it differs from the ability to develop
sensorimotor skills? I think it's an oddly redundant partial statement to
say the same thing.
> Hope this helps. In the end, the specific words are unimportant (and will be
> different in different languages anyway), the concepts probably are
> important, but either are only useful if they help us dance!
Specific words ARE IMPORTANT as your undefined choice of words resulting
in a confused hodge podge of unclear concepts so vividly demonstrates.
What help did you intend? I read your definition of "muscle memory" to be
a confused reference to acquiring sensorimoter skills. I suspect its
appeal is that it is a snazzier sounding phrase that rolls nicely off the
tongue. The alliteration of "mmmm" is catchier than "ssss" and people
think they know what muscles and memory are, so it's conceptually
acceptable. You have not shown how the term is useful or helpful nor in
what way it should be used in preference or distinction to "sensorimotor
skill".
I've not come across in the literature of social dance any instruction on
how to develop the ability to remember movement. Saying "muscle memory" is
like the old joke, how do you make an economist? Teach a parrot to say
"supply and demand"!
Your rambling, vague, confusing explanation of "muscle memory" illustrates
very well the problems I find with the term and why I think it should be
replaced by language that is used by those who study the brain, body, and
movement and which has clear referents and well defined usage.
What I have not done is discuss how the research about sensorimotor skills
can be applied to dance. I won't do that here beyond noting that it calls
attention to the important role of the sensory system in dance. One of
the common misapproaches for leaders is to take a concept of how to, for
example, lead ochos and practise it to get the "muscle" part right. Get
it in the old muscle memory, heh, while not paying sufficient attention to
the sensory input, what their eyes, and kinesthetic senses tell them about
how their partner is responding.
It is the coordination of the motor system with information about the
activity from the sensory system that is important. I would say that using
the term "muscle memory" needlessly focuses attention on an isolated
aspect of the activity referenced by the term "sensorimotor skills". You
have not convinced me that memory should be selected out from that
system and given emphasis.
One criticism I have of the pedagogy of social dance is that the sensory
input system is taken for granted and thus neglected. I refer anyone
interested to the "Inner Game of ___" books by Gallwey, where ____ could
be Tennis, Skiing, Music, or Golf for examples of teaching that skillfully
utilize the sensory and motor systems.
peace,
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:29:41 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: "Muscle memory" and other useful concepts with confusing names
Johnathan Thorton wrote:
>One criticism I have of the pedagogy of social dance is that
>the sensory input system is taken for granted and thus neglected.
>I refer anyone interested to the "Inner Game of ___" books by
>Gallwey, where ____ could be Tennis, Skiing, Music, or Golf for
>examples of teaching that skillfully utilize the sensory and
>motor systems.
I cannot comment on other social dances, but I am not in complete
agreement that the sensory input system is taken for granted and thus
neglected in the teaching of tango. Many group lessons neglect the
sensory input system, but not all do. Some teachers ask their students to
observe their movement in mirrors. In addition, many of the best private
lessons that I have taken focus exactly on improving skill through use of
the sensory input system.
One distinction between social dance and Tennis, Skiing and Golf is that
the observation/feedback about the physical accomplishment are more easily
made. The tennis ball is inside/outside the line. The Golf ball is down
the middle of the fairway, to the right or to the left. Except for
movements that can be observed in mirrors, dance is much more subjective.
It is also potentially more emotionally laden.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:35:02 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: "Muscle memory" and other useful concepts with confusing names
To further expand on Steve's comments about practice I remember a story about
Pablo Casals, the great late cellist. A reporter asked him, on his 90th
birthday, why he still practiced 5 hours a day to which Casals replied: "I'm still
making progress!" I only barely imagine how many tens of thousands of hours
Casals had practiced by the time he reached 90 years of age!
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 8/20/2003 14:23:52 Pacific Daylight Time,
Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG writes:
> Subj: Re: [TANGO-L] "Muscle memory" and other useful concepts withconfusing
> names
> Date: 8/20/2003 14:23:52 Pacific Daylight Time
> From: <A HREF="mailto:Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG">Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG</A>
> To: <A HREF="mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU">TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> I always enjoy reading Robert Hauk's thoughtful comments.
>
> Robert wrote:
> >This skill is not developed by writing, reading, listening to
> >someone talk... This skill is developed on the dance floor,
> >one song at a time. The talking, reading etc... helps because
> >you might begin to know what you are seeking, but without the
> >experience the discussion is meaningless. Go dance your miles!
>
> In a way, I think Roberts comments bring us full circle. When I think
> about my own effort in learning to dance tango, I remember my teachers
> with a great deal of gratitude. I also remember the long hours that Susan
> and I spent practicing. Mastery of a physical skill such as dancing
> requires practice.
>
> In observing others learn tango, some of whom I have known for many years
> I noticed that their are some individuals who run from workshop to
> workshop, and tango week to tango week without ever really developing as a
> tango dancer. I have seen others blossom with mostly local instruction.
> One of the major factors that I have found that distinguishes between
> those who can really dance tango from those who cannot is the amount of
> practice time that they have.
>
> By the way, I recently read that practice hours was the primary
> characteristic separating good violinists from great ones. A violinist
> who was capable of playing in minor orchestras had about 5000 hours
> practice by their early 20s; a violinist who was capable of playing with a
> major orchestra had about 7500 hours of practice by their early 20s, and
> one who could make a career as as soloist had 10,000 hours practice by
> their early 20s.
>
> >The use of mirrors, in my opinion, is limited because your
> >attention is so diverted from what you can feel within the
> >dance frame. I see people watching themselves in the mirror,
> >and totally losing their frame and whatever connection they have.
>
> I agree with Robert about the use of mirrors in trying observe oneself
> dancing with a partner. I was probably unclear. I meant the use of
> mirrors to watch oneself during movement exercises. Of course, you can
> get feedback about balance, etc, by kinesthetic experience without visual
> observation. The key is being observant (visually or otherwise) about
> what is the response to a particular way of moving.
>
> Robert said that learning tango is similar to learning golf in that
> >[W]hat they are trying to perfect is a consistant body movement,
> >informed by natural body mechanics. I suspect when someone
> >starts to get the feeling of things they don't have to see the
> >ball flying straight down the fairway to know that they have hit
> >the ball well.
>
> In building sensory-motor skills, feedback (that is not value-laden) is
> important: They know how they have hit the ball because they can remember
> the sensory motor feeling that produced a ball hit straight down the
> fairway. They learn by watching the ball.
>
> Tango is a bit more tricky because the physical feedback varies from
> partner to partner, depends on the partner's experience and it is more
> difficult to get an objective measure of what is being done. In some of
> the best private lessons that I have had, the instructor provided feedback
> by instructing me how to position various parts of my body--not unlike
> might be done in Alexander technique. In other private lessons, the same
> instructor worked with me providing feedback on developing or refinining a
> consistent body movement.
>
> Many Happy Tangos to All,
> Steve
>
> Stephen Brown
> Tango Argentino de Tejas
>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:52:37 +1000
From: Gary <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: "Muscle memory" and other useful concepts with confusing names
it seems that around 21/08/03 2:07 AM, Jonathan Thornton at jnt@NOYAU.COM
wrote (among other things):
> What help did you intend?
I intended to help you, and others, understand what many people might mean
by "muscle memory", and how that concept (even if not the words) can be
useful in learning tango.
I believe that I made that clear to some people, and apologise if it was
confusing for you.
And I apologise to anyone else who I confused or misled.
Now pulling my head in.
Gary
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:10:18 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: "Muscle memory"
I, for one, am a big fan of muscle memory.
A good teacher will have many small elemental movements that are
commonly found in social tango that they like to teach. This could be
walking, corriditas, media-giros, ochos, pauses, cunitas, etc. This
teacher will play the music from the orchestras Picho listed in an
earlier note because this is by far the "core" of the good dance music.
A student might practice a media-giro to the leader's left, for
instance. Doing this movement over and over to different music, valses,
tangos, with different partners, etc. builds muscle memory along with
familiarity with the music. Then when that student is on the dance
floor, the leader can pull it off in a tight space almost without
thinking about it - it becomes second nature. The follower instantly
recognizes the familiar movement, feels how it fits the music, and can
dance it energetically and musically.
The dancer who knows even as few as 5 of these elements like the back of
his/her hand can now begin to combine them on the dance floor. The
result is a reasonably improvised dance done with good musicality that
has the potential for reasonable navigation due to the absence of long,
complicated patterns. That same dancer, given enough familiarity with
the music, can dance these 5 elemental movements in a mind-boggling
variety of ways.
As the dancer gains experience, the elements become very familiar, and
can be broken down even further to single steps or combined in many
rhythmically dynamic ways. As the dancers' balance and maturity grows,
the dance truly happens one step at a time so that the dancer is in
command of every weight change. This is the dancer who now has the
opportunity to discover a dizzying array of movements on his/her own,
just while dancing and practicing. From this level of familiarity comes
the many embellishments that are often taken as separate concepts within
the dance, whereas I prefer to think of them as an extension of very
good technique.
All this because the elemental movements have become second nature via
the process of muscle memory through repetition.
We don't need mirrors, videos or anything else. We just need to get
down to something really basic and fundamental. Dancing can be so
simple and so enjoyable, yet I sense that so many people blow it out of
proportion and stress out over it.
Let's get back to something far less academic (getting very bored with
discussions about tango "styles"), more personal, and less
technologically propped up. Let's learn how to communicate with each
other on a really fundamental, basic level, with our mouths closed and
our hearts and ears open and our brains only partially engaged. It can
be a simple, beautiful experience.
Dan
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 05:33:39 +0200
From: Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel <tango@tangodesalon.de>
Subject: [Tango-L] concepts
Dear Igor and everyone else,
If you are really interested in our concepts, especially in our ideas
about improvisation, please have a look at our list with workshop-
propositions. These are not only titles, but short texts, which
discribe the content of the class. They are open for anyone at:
https://www.tangodesalon.de/en/einfo.htm
The direct link: https://www.tangodesalon.de/documents/Workshop-
Topics.pdf
If you want to know more, please visit one of our classes or ask
someone who did so. Maria Olivera is a friend and a teacher herself.
She can only tell you, what she watched on one occasion or what we
discussed with her.
Our students may give you a deeper insight and they may aditionally
tell you, that we provide them with written handouts that summarize
our main concepts, exercises and body-work, depending on which class
you took. If doing classes, that deal with musicality, you'll find
there rhythmical patterns and it's variations or dimensions of the
music and of the dance, again depending on the exact topic.
After our 1-week Tango-holidays, we aditionally produce an individual
DVD, that summarizes the content of the classes.
Please understand, that we don't distribute these handouts or DVDs
freely, as they are a part of our workshops and are meant for those,
who already attended our classes.
If we do find the time, we'll write a book or produce a DVD someday.
But, these things take a lot of preparation, if you want to do them
properly. For the moment, we focus on teaching.
If you do have more questions, please write to us personally. We
don't want to bore the readers of the list or invoke the idea, that
all this is a publicity-campaign and we pay people to provoke
attention on our work. ;-)
Yours sincerely,
Melina
Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel
www.tangodesalon.de
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
tango@tangodesalon.de
(0049) (0)681 9381839
(0049) (0)177 4340669
