3332  myth vs reality in BA

Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:05:51 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: myth vs reality in BA

Dear Derik
Do you have video of your dancing online somewhere
with all those surprises,ironies incongruities etc you
talk about that make women sleepless...while dancing
i.e.
would you mind?

Just curious
Would be a pleasure am sure.
;)

--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:

> Dear Andrea:
>
> Andrea, perhaps you need to "be awakened" by an
> incongruous step every once in awhile, instead of
> falling to sleep while you are dancing....lol.
>
> To me the truly great dancers are ALL SELF TAUGHT,
> whether they take classes from teachers or not, and
> this is especially true in Argentine Tango, because

it

> is fundamentally a "street dance" from Argentina

full

> of "surprises", "ironies" and "incongruities".
>
> Most of the streets in Buenos Aires, where the dance
> began, are cobble stone. Just look at the street

that

> Carlos Gardel sang about. These streets were less

than

> perfect dance floors. Even today women still dance

on

> these streets in high heels or whatever, and they
> probably go through a lot of shoes as a result, but

to

> me, they and their partners are the really wonderful
> dancers of tango, because they are full of the

spirit

> of the land, and they can handle anything, cobble
> stones, surprises, whatever.
>
> My point is that Argentine Tango is a dance of the
> heart and soul, not a dance of tango teachers. One
> learns tango from wherever one can. To me great
> teachers should be able to dance well, and "non
> teachers" should be able to create a new step.
>
> I think that Janis Kenyon is absolutely right about
> the value of the few remaining milongueros to the
> dance. I also think it is wonderful that the young
> couple from the Netherlands and Italy are in Buenos
> Aires learning everything they can from the self
> taught surviving milongeros. This is smart. Good

for

> them.
>
> To me, what the young people in Buenos Aires are
> doing, is the real future of Argentine Tango. The
> young people are learning from the older people who
> have the "self taught" skills, and the heart and

soul

> to go along with these skills. This is the living
> history of the tango and it is being tied to the
> future expression of the dance by the young dancers
> who will add more to the dance. It is not "rose in
> the teeth" and "MacDonald's" close embrace tango,
> created artificially in the US, which does not even
> "look" or "feel" like Argentine tango.
>
> To me, we Americans in the US are a lot like the
> Finns.
> The Finnish in Finland, also have their own tango,
> just like the Americans in the US. In fact, tango,

is

> the national dance of Finland. The Finnish tango,
> however, does not look or feel like Argentine Tango

at

> all. I know this, because my family is from the

part

> of Russia that was Sweden, then Russia, and finally,
> the independent country of Finland. My mom,

Natasha,

> from a Russian-Swedish family, became a Finnish
> citizen for awhile, before becoming a US citizen.

My

> grandfather, also a Russian-Swede, danced Argentine
> Tango at the French Club (Club Sportif Francais) in
> Shanghai, China. He did not dance Finnish Tango.

He

> said that it was not the same thing at all.
>
> Anyway, I think that perhaps the Americans in the US
> and the Finnish, are very creative, and that is
> wonderful thing, BUT they are not really dancing
> Argentine Tango! They are dancing their own dance
> with each other. There is nothing wrong with this,
> but these dances should be called what they are:
>
> American (US) Tango ("rose in the teeth", "Hollywood
> tango", "close embrace tango all the time", etc.)
>
> Finnish Tango ("hold your partner tango")
>
> Neither of these dances is quite the Argentine

Tango.

> They are not "wrong". They are just national dances

of

> other countries which were derived from the original

=== Message Truncated ===

Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 13:01:14 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: myth vs reality in BA

Dear ????? :

That is funny...lol.

I never said that I was a great tango dancer, and I do
not presume to teach Argentine tango. I also do not
bother to take videos of myself dancing tango. Do
you? I prefer just to dance and enjoy the moment.
Besides, tango is not about the dance anyway. It is
about the culture, the music, and the way of living.
Our ways of moving come from all of that. This is the
reason that we have different tangos coming from
different cultures.

PS- Thank you for your offer of "stardom"...lol. We
are all famous for 15 minutes, right?


Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com

--- Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Dear Derik
> Do you have video of your dancing online somewhere
> with all those surprises,ironies incongruities etc
> you
> talk about that make women sleepless...while dancing
> i.e.
> would you mind?
>
> Just curious
> Would be a pleasure am sure.
> ;)
>
> --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
> > Dear Andrea:
> >
> > Andrea, perhaps you need to "be awakened" by an
> > incongruous step every once in awhile, instead of
> > falling to sleep while you are dancing....lol.
> >
> > To me the truly great dancers are ALL SELF TAUGHT,
> > whether they take classes from teachers or not,
> and
> > this is especially true in Argentine Tango,
> because
> it
> > is fundamentally a "street dance" from Argentina
> full
> > of "surprises", "ironies" and "incongruities".
> >
> > Most of the streets in Buenos Aires, where the
> dance
> > began, are cobble stone. Just look at the street
> that
> > Carlos Gardel sang about. These streets were less
> than
> > perfect dance floors. Even today women still
> dance
> on
> > these streets in high heels or whatever, and they
> > probably go through a lot of shoes as a result,
> but
> to
> > me, they and their partners are the really
> wonderful
> > dancers of tango, because they are full of the
> spirit
> > of the land, and they can handle anything, cobble
> > stones, surprises, whatever.
> >
> > My point is that Argentine Tango is a dance of the
> > heart and soul, not a dance of tango teachers.
> One
> > learns tango from wherever one can. To me great
> > teachers should be able to dance well, and "non
> > teachers" should be able to create a new step.
> >
> > I think that Janis Kenyon is absolutely right
> about
> > the value of the few remaining milongueros to the
> > dance. I also think it is wonderful that the young
> > couple from the Netherlands and Italy are in
> Buenos
> > Aires learning everything they can from the self
> > taught surviving milongeros. This is smart. Good
> for
> > them.
> >
> > To me, what the young people in Buenos Aires are
> > doing, is the real future of Argentine Tango. The
> > young people are learning from the older people
> who
> > have the "self taught" skills, and the heart and
> soul
> > to go along with these skills. This is the living
> > history of the tango and it is being tied to the
> > future expression of the dance by the young
> dancers
> > who will add more to the dance. It is not "rose
> in
> > the teeth" and "MacDonald's" close embrace tango,
> > created artificially in the US, which does not
> even
> > "look" or "feel" like Argentine tango.
> >
> > To me, we Americans in the US are a lot like the
> > Finns.
> > The Finnish in Finland, also have their own tango,
> > just like the Americans in the US. In fact, tango,
> is
> > the national dance of Finland. The Finnish tango,
> > however, does not look or feel like Argentine
> Tango
> at
> > all. I know this, because my family is from the
> part
> > of Russia that was Sweden, then Russia, and
> finally,
> > the independent country of Finland. My mom,
> Natasha,
> > from a Russian-Swedish family, became a Finnish
> > citizen for awhile, before becoming a US citizen.
> My
> > grandfather, also a Russian-Swede, danced
> Argentine
> > Tango at the French Club (Club Sportif Francais)
> in
> > Shanghai, China. He did not dance Finnish Tango.
> He
> > said that it was not the same thing at all.
> >
> > Anyway, I think that perhaps the Americans in the
> US
> > and the Finnish, are very creative, and that is
> > wonderful thing, BUT they are not really dancing
> > Argentine Tango! They are dancing their own dance
> > with each other. There is nothing wrong with
> this,
> > but these dances should be called what they are:
> >
> > American (US) Tango ("rose in the teeth",
> "Hollywood
> > tango", "close embrace tango all the time", etc.)
> >
> > Finnish Tango ("hold your partner tango")
> >
> > Neither of these dances is quite the Argentine
> Tango.
> > They are not "wrong". They are just national
> dances
> of
> > other countries which were derived from the
> original
> === Message Truncated ===
>
>

Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:32:00 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET>
Subject: Re: myth vs reality in BA

Sorry Derik, But I think it is all about the dance. Why else would so many people fall in love with the dance the very first time we try it, not knowing anything about the culture, the music, the way of life....?
....because there is something within the dance, the movement, the embrace, that is necessary for us all.
The rest of it adds to the magic- the sense of community, and the artistic & emotional satisfaction that comes from dancing tango.
happy dancing,
Ilene






Derik said...
"Besides, tango is not about the dance anyway. It is
about the culture, the music, and the way of living...."

>
>

Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 13:46:20 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: myth vs reality in BA

Dear Ilene:

Do you dance Argetine tango without the music?

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com

--- Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET> wrote:

> Sorry Derik, But I think it is all about the dance.
> Why else would so many people fall in love with the
> dance the very first time we try it, not knowing
> anything about the culture, the music, the way of
> life....?
> ....because there is something within the dance, the
> movement, the embrace, that is necessary for us all.
> The rest of it adds to the magic- the sense of
> community, and the artistic & emotional satisfaction
> that comes from dancing tango.
> happy dancing,
> Ilene
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Derik said...
> "Besides, tango is not about the dance anyway. It is
> about the culture, the music, and the way of
> living...."
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
>
>

Make Yahoo! your home page

Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:58:01 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET>
Subject: Re: myth vs reality in BA

well of course not... ( I'm a musician and DJ and the music is
inseparable for me, as for many others)....
what I'm saying is that for many of us, the reason we are dancing is
because of THE DANCE... and the way that the dance makes us feel --not
because of the Argentine culture or way of life.
that's all.
I.


Derik Rawson wrote:

>Dear Ilene:
>
>Do you dance Argetine tango without the music?
>
>Derik
>d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>--- Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET> wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry Derik, But I think it is all about the dance.
>>Why else would so many people fall in love with the
>>dance the very first time we try it, not knowing
>>anything about the culture, the music, the way of
>>life....?
>>....because there is something within the dance, the
>>movement, the embrace, that is necessary for us all.
>>The rest of it adds to the magic- the sense of
>>community, and the artistic & emotional satisfaction
>>that comes from dancing tango.
>>happy dancing,
>>Ilene
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Derik said...
>>"Besides, tango is not about the dance anyway. It is
>>about the culture, the music, and the way of
>>living...."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Make Yahoo! your home page
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:06:10 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET>
Subject: Re: myth vs reality in BA

and just to clarify...I love the Argentine culture and way of life and
particularly the music, from its earliest beginnings right up to tango 2005.
I can't wait to go back to BA. Immersion in the culture makes dancing
tango that much more involving, and for me, more meaningful.

I think tango strikes something universal in all of us..perhaps owing
to its immigrant roots.
I.

Derik Rawson wrote:

>Dear Ilene:
>
>Do you dance Argetine tango without the music?
>
>Derik
>d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>--- Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET> wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry Derik, But I think it is all about the dance.
>>Why else would so many people fall in love with the
>>dance the very first time we try it, not knowing
>>anything about the culture, the music, the way of
>>life....?
>>....because there is something within the dance, the
>>movement, the embrace, that is necessary for us all.
>>The rest of it adds to the magic- the sense of
>>community, and the artistic & emotional satisfaction
>>that comes from dancing tango.
>>happy dancing,
>>Ilene
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Derik said...
>>"Besides, tango is not about the dance anyway. It is
>>about the culture, the music, and the way of
>>living...."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Make Yahoo! your home page
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 01:55:22 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: myth vs reality in BA

Dear Derik and Ilene,

> dancing is because of THE DANCE... and the way that the dance

I think you are both right. People are in love with tango (as a complex
phenomenon) probably due to different reasons.

Derik loves tango because he can connect to the Argentine way of life
through it (which apparently he likes very much).
Ilene loves certain (undefined) aspects of the dance itself.

For me it was the music that caught me. I already owned about three dozen
CDs (which I had to ask friend to send them from Argentina - there were no
known online tango stores that time) when I first saw how argentine tango
looked like. Before that I only saw (and danced) international ballroom
tango. (it was my favourite dance of the 10) The first 'live' tango I saw
was Tango Passión (before I learnt the first step) and it was pretty much
far from the tango danced at milongas...

Most of the people starting to learn tango in Hungary have no idea how
argentine tango looked like when they come to their first class. Some of
them are even suprised (they expect the rose-routine). They come to learn
tango because they feel it is something exotic. This is as plain as that. Of
course ultimately they usually find something real in tango but that comes
afterwards. And these real things are usually just mirror-images of their
personal (psychological) needs. (already discussed earlier on the list)

Apparently, now we (the List) have managed to reduce the circle of 'true
tango dancers' (those who dance 'real argentine tango' and not just claim to
do so) to the 60+ year-old milongeuros. I think we are really overdoing
this... The largest portion of argentine tango dancers/teachers then can't
dance argentine tango? Plleeeease...

I do not believe that any of us (non-argentines) on this list would need an
alibi or explanation to love tango or to prove that the style we like is
authentic. You'll have no way to prove authenticity, because there is no
such thing (as we have also dicussed that earlier). Authentic things are
unique objects and not vague, non-dogmatized (not even properly researched!)
art forms. There is simply no definition to stick to. (I think we can accept
that as a fact now.)

About being self-taught: I think dances cannot be really _taught_ in the
traditional sense. Dancing is not mathematics. Steps (combinations) may be
taught, true. But dancing? You have to develop your dancing yourself (with
or without the help of a teacher). You have to tame your hundreds of muscles
and coordinate them to your ear (ear = as music and as balance) by yourself.
No-one else has access to your nervous system to help you control that. In
this sense, all dancers (good, bad, beginner or master) are self-taught.
Of course, if you mean that there are people who never used the help of
teacher. Well, there you might have a definition problem as well: I do not
believe that there are dancers who never used the help of a more adept
dancer. Of course, a more adept dancer is not a professional teacher.
However, you cannot say that these dancers learnt everything only through
experimenting and copying - they had someone to _teach_ them. A teacher is
only set apart from their students by their larger knowledge base and their
willingness (and hopefully: tools) to communicate this knowledge.

I think we can say that the way tango is learned has changed. My previous
letter touching that subject unleashed quite a torrent, so I won't quote.
The thing is that milongueros who learn tango without professional teachers
and who develop their dancing only by themselves are the thing of the past.
We can call this a shame, we can call it evolution or we can call it simply
just a change (a different way of doing things). This is why I said that you
cannot expect to keep this dance in the form it was 50 years ago, because
simply the world progressed 50 years since then! People are different,
social dynamics are different, values are different, even the relations of
the genders (in social context) are different. Not to mention the change in
the people's knowledge on dancing, mechanics of dancing, their awareness to
other cultures, dances, music etc.

This is also true for those old milongeuros who _did_ learn as mentioned.
What they know has already been used... But in a changed form. A form
required by _this_ time, the _present_ people and the _present_ culture.
There is very little you can do to keep out the world... Especially, that
tango was created by _not_ keeping out the world. The world as it was 150,
120, 100, 80, 50 years ago... Now we cannot keep the state it was then, as
it progressed since then. Of course, the methods of progress changed.
(that's why I wrote that it is not the living folk dance form anymore -
because of professional dancers-teachers driving the change)

Naturally, there is nothing wrong in (museum-type) conservation. But
nevertheless, a 'modern' tango is no less tango, then the old. It is like
saying that Vivialdi's music is more classical then Beethoven's or Verdi's,
or saying that the music Dvorak wrote was not classical but something
else...say etno-pop.

And before anyone would attack me again for 'being disrespectful': I never
said that what the old milongeuros know is bad. I only said that it is not
so fashionable anymore. And as fashions go, their style is still pretty
popular...

My 2 cents,
Aron


Ecsedy Áron
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.milonga.hu/

Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:43:50 -0600
From: Mark Johnson <mark.johnson@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: myth vs reality in BA

Well said.


On 4/2/05 5:55 PM, "Ecsedy Áron" <aron@MILONGA.HU> wrote:

> Dear Derik and Ilene,
>
>> dancing is because of THE DANCE... and the way that the dance
>
> I think you are both right. People are in love with tango (as a complex
> phenomenon) probably due to different reasons.
>
> Derik loves tango because he can connect to the Argentine way of life
> through it (which apparently he likes very much).
> Ilene loves certain (undefined) aspects of the dance itself.
>
> For me it was the music that caught me. I already owned about three dozen
> CDs (which I had to ask friend to send them from Argentina - there were no
> known online tango stores that time) when I first saw how argentine tango
> looked like. Before that I only saw (and danced) international ballroom
> tango. (it was my favourite dance of the 10) The first 'live' tango I saw
> was Tango Passión (before I learnt the first step) and it was pretty much
> far from the tango danced at milongas...
>
> Most of the people starting to learn tango in Hungary have no idea how
> argentine tango looked like when they come to their first class. Some of
> them are even suprised (they expect the rose-routine). They come to learn
> tango because they feel it is something exotic. This is as plain as that. Of
> course ultimately they usually find something real in tango but that comes
> afterwards. And these real things are usually just mirror-images of their
> personal (psychological) needs. (already discussed earlier on the list)
>
> Apparently, now we (the List) have managed to reduce the circle of 'true
> tango dancers' (those who dance 'real argentine tango' and not just claim to
> do so) to the 60+ year-old milongeuros. I think we are really overdoing
> this... The largest portion of argentine tango dancers/teachers then can't
> dance argentine tango? Plleeeease...
>
> I do not believe that any of us (non-argentines) on this list would need an
> alibi or explanation to love tango or to prove that the style we like is
> authentic. You'll have no way to prove authenticity, because there is no
> such thing (as we have also dicussed that earlier). Authentic things are
> unique objects and not vague, non-dogmatized (not even properly researched!)
> art forms. There is simply no definition to stick to. (I think we can accept
> that as a fact now.)
>
> About being self-taught: I think dances cannot be really _taught_ in the
> traditional sense. Dancing is not mathematics. Steps (combinations) may be
> taught, true. But dancing? You have to develop your dancing yourself (with
> or without the help of a teacher). You have to tame your hundreds of muscles
> and coordinate them to your ear (ear = as music and as balance) by yourself.
> No-one else has access to your nervous system to help you control that. In
> this sense, all dancers (good, bad, beginner or master) are self-taught.
> Of course, if you mean that there are people who never used the help of
> teacher. Well, there you might have a definition problem as well: I do not
> believe that there are dancers who never used the help of a more adept
> dancer. Of course, a more adept dancer is not a professional teacher.
> However, you cannot say that these dancers learnt everything only through
> experimenting and copying - they had someone to _teach_ them. A teacher is
> only set apart from their students by their larger knowledge base and their
> willingness (and hopefully: tools) to communicate this knowledge.
>
> I think we can say that the way tango is learned has changed. My previous
> letter touching that subject unleashed quite a torrent, so I won't quote.
> The thing is that milongueros who learn tango without professional teachers
> and who develop their dancing only by themselves are the thing of the past.
> We can call this a shame, we can call it evolution or we can call it simply
> just a change (a different way of doing things). This is why I said that you
> cannot expect to keep this dance in the form it was 50 years ago, because
> simply the world progressed 50 years since then! People are different,
> social dynamics are different, values are different, even the relations of
> the genders (in social context) are different. Not to mention the change in
> the people's knowledge on dancing, mechanics of dancing, their awareness to
> other cultures, dances, music etc.
>
> This is also true for those old milongeuros who _did_ learn as mentioned.
> What they know has already been used... But in a changed form. A form
> required by _this_ time, the _present_ people and the _present_ culture.
> There is very little you can do to keep out the world... Especially, that
> tango was created by _not_ keeping out the world. The world as it was 150,
> 120, 100, 80, 50 years ago... Now we cannot keep the state it was then, as
> it progressed since then. Of course, the methods of progress changed.
> (that's why I wrote that it is not the living folk dance form anymore -
> because of professional dancers-teachers driving the change)
>
> Naturally, there is nothing wrong in (museum-type) conservation. But
> nevertheless, a 'modern' tango is no less tango, then the old. It is like
> saying that Vivialdi's music is more classical then Beethoven's or Verdi's,
> or saying that the music Dvorak wrote was not classical but something
> else...say etno-pop.
>
> And before anyone would attack me again for 'being disrespectful': I never
> said that what the old milongeuros know is bad. I only said that it is not
> so fashionable anymore. And as fashions go, their style is still pretty
> popular...
>
> My 2 cents,
> Aron
>
>
> Ecsedy Áron
> Aron ECSEDY
>
> Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
> ICQ# 46386265
> https://www.milonga.hu/
>