2120  Neverending Ochos

Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 02:58:12 -0800
From: H Dickinson <hyladlmp@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Neverending Ochos

I've been thinking a bit about the tendency of follows
to keep on and on with ochos without waiting for the
lead. I do agree that a strong lead ("death grip")
can be very helpful, and the whisper in the ear, as
well.

But also I am remembering back to my days first
learning, and I remember there having been two major
reasons why I would keep going on and on.

The first major reason was very vague but very real
and, as I think back on it, seemed to be combined of
all sorts of hopes and fears and misconceptions all
mixed up. The hopes had mostly to do with wanting to
"get it", to be "nice" to the lead and spare him or
her all that bother of having to push me around; and
hoping that I looked nice doing it, hoping that I was
doing it right, and a sort of "look at me, Mom, I'm
doing OCHOS!". The fears seemed to be along the lines
of "what if I stop in the wrong place? HOW do I stop?
What if I stop and he didn't want me to stop and gets
angry?". I certainly remember a sense of panic. The
misconceptions seemed to have to do with a feeling
that this was the "real" thing that set tango apart,
and so it was very important and was probably
something a really good dancer would be able to do a
lot of. There was also a misconception that you don't
do just one ocho, you do lots (maybe because that was
how we would practice them?) and also that since it is
harder to keep your balance as you do more and more of
them, then to prove you are a better dancer, you do
more. And with all of these hopes and fears and
misconceptions floating around, I for one had a
tendency to zone out and go on automatic pilot once I
started.

The second (and probably more universally true) major
set of reasons for me had to do with momentum. When I
started, I had no sense of my own axis, my balance was
not great, I really did not have much experience in
social dance at all. Lots of folks starting tango are
in the same boat. We think we are doing great on all
of these, but we really haven't a clue....Despite
whatever good teaching I might have had (and I have
found this to be true with all beginning follows I
have tried to lead) certain things never registered at
first, such as, "collect your feet, wait on your axis,
stay on balance". So, what I used to do was to be
continually off-balance, and tipping a bit, and always
trying to catch up. The easiest way for me to do this
was to keep going on with ochos, because if I stopped,
then I would fall over.

Also, bad leads make bad follows (and vice versa);
beginning leads tend to pull and push and jerk and
lead the ochos too fast for the follow to get her
balance, which increases the whole momentum/balance
problem, and since she can never catch up, she can't
tell when the lead wants her to stop. After awhile,
she stops trying to follow. And once again, dealing
with all of these balance issues means that she is so
wrapped up worrying, that she is not paying attention
to the lead.

One thing that has seemed to help a little bit is to
say to a follow who is suffering the endless ocho
syndrome, "I'm noticing that I'm having a hard time
comunicating when I want to end the ochos. I'd like
to take a little time out to practice being really
clear in my lead there. I'm going to do just one ocho
at a time for a bit, and I'd like you to let me know
if it feels like I'm pulling you off center or
anything." And then do that, one ocho, stop. If she
doesn't stop, mention collecting the feet as a good
way to keep balance and control--because now she knows
for sure that you only want one ocho, if she is not
doing it, is is because she is having a hard time with
momentum or balance etc., not because she is on
automatic pilot. Just a few of these and then go on
with the class whether she gets it or not, otherwise
it is a little rude! Several good leads and good
teachers helped me in this way when I was learning.
(Only during a class or practica, never at a milonga,
during a milonga it needs to be the death grip and/or
the private whisper).

I don't know if this is familiar to any other follows
reading this?

Hyla

Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 17:53:50 EST
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Neverending Ochos

You don't need a "death grip". You just need to lift the lady slightly, so
that she is on the balls of her feet. From that position it is hard for the lady
to walk - and Ochos are just another form of walking. Of course, you lift her
with your frame, not with your arms.

I agree that ladies who are what we call "Ocho machines" are initially
disconcerting. However, one soon gets used to encouraging them to follow (or
encouraging them to lead when that is what the man intends). I thought that the
standard mantra was "The man indicates - the lady leads - the man follows".

Laurie

Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:38:24 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Neverending Ochos

This is very interesting, because I often hear women complain of new
male dancers leading never ending back ochos.

I never had a problem with a dancer at any level going on automatic back
ochos, and as I think about this, I remember another post from a few
weeks ago:

Should the frame be weak or firm?
I think here rests the answer, if your frame is not firm and commanding,
then the follower has no direction as to what to do. This is not the
follower's fault, but the leader's. This is true in close or open
embrace.

Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:53:35 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Neverending Ochos

Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG> wrote (quoting?):

>

Should the frame be weak or firm? I think here rests the answer, if your
frame is not firm and commanding, then the follower has no direction as to
what to do. This is not the follower's fault, but the leader's.
<

Results from my introspection, quite possibly not applicable to others.
Special situations aside, I offer a firm, meaning, most certainly not soggy,
frame (call it what you may); or a gentle (I hope) but positive apilado
embrace. (Face to face in all cases, or close enough to that.)

Zero pressure by default, or close enough to that.

I am style-flexible, so I do not need to contradict reasonable preferences of
my partners' as to kind of embrace.

Now this is only half of the story. The other half is up to her. In fact, the
whole thing is up to her. Most experienced dancers in my neck of the woods
prefer a light touch, and the good ones are of course not soggy, nor do they
need to be "reigned in". Some want extreme lightness in a very flexible
embrace, what we could call a "virtual connection"; others want something a
bit more substantial.

Rightly or wrongly, I believe that all of this is really lady's choice. She
appears to me to determine the amount of resistance offered and,
consequently, the level of "control pressures" (as in pilot's jargon). If she
cannot stay with me every millimeter of the way with her choice, c'est la
vie: there is nothing I care to do about that, except maybe with a first
timer who wants me to help a bit.

What about non-stop ochos? Oh, girls learn that in classes, and soon start
improving, thank goodness. I eventually figured out that one must take very
seriously the idea that virtually all movements in tango are neither for the
man nor for the woman, but for the couple. The woman does not "do" ochos as
the man does something else, or nothing. THEY do ochos, or whatever. Took me
quite a while, stupid me, to realize some of the finer logical consequences
of this. Oh, by the way, a woman and a wall do not constitute a couple,
either.

Cheers,

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:11:43 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Neverending Ochos

Don Carlos Lima,
I still stand by my comment, I think it is difficult if not impossible
for a follower to go on automatic ochos (forward, back or any other
step) if the leader has a strong frame and a clear lead, you can be
strong and gentle at the same time. At least this has been my
experience, and have hear it many times from experienced Argentine
teachers with many decades of dancing (male & female).

It took me several years to finally realize how strong the frame needs
to be, and when I initially posted the comment about the strong frame, I
also asked the question: "has anyone danced in Buenos Aires with an
experienced milonguero(a) that does not have a strong frame?"
The only answers I got were to confirm this fact.

One aspect that I teach my follower students, is that they can control
the man when he is new, is a jerk, does not know what he is doing, or is
bumping into other couples. The follower can control the steps,
direction and rhythm, she can accomplish this by making her frame
stronger than the man's.

An interesting aspect of tango music is the variety of rhythms that a
couple can dance to. One of my favor parts is when I suggest a beat to
my partner, then I dance to a different one with totally different steps
than she does. What is even more interesting, is when she gets it and
starts adorning her steps to complement the music.

Happy New Year.

Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR


-----Original Message-----

Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 1:54 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Neverending Ochos

Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG> wrote (quoting?):

>

Should the frame be weak or firm? I think here rests the answer, if your
frame is not firm and commanding, then the follower has no direction as
to
what to do. This is not the follower's fault, but the leader's.
<

Results from my introspection, quite possibly not applicable to others.
Special situations aside, I offer a firm, meaning, most certainly not
soggy,
frame (call it what you may); or a gentle (I hope) but positive apilado
embrace. (Face to face in all cases, or close enough to that.)

Zero pressure by default, or close enough to that.

I am style-flexible, so I do not need to contradict reasonable
preferences of
my partners' as to kind of embrace.

Now this is only half of the story. The other half is up to her. In
fact, the
whole thing is up to her. Most experienced dancers in my neck of the
woods
prefer a light touch, and the good ones are of course not soggy, nor do
they
need to be "reigned in". Some want extreme lightness in a very flexible
embrace, what we could call a "virtual connection"; others want
something a
bit more substantial.

Rightly or wrongly, I believe that all of this is really lady's choice.
She
appears to me to determine the amount of resistance offered and,
consequently, the level of "control pressures" (as in pilot's jargon).
If she
cannot stay with me every millimeter of the way with her choice, c'est
la
vie: there is nothing I care to do about that, except maybe with a first
timer who wants me to help a bit.

What about non-stop ochos? Oh, girls learn that in classes, and soon
start
improving, thank goodness. I eventually figured out that one must take
very
seriously the idea that virtually all movements in tango are neither for
the
man nor for the woman, but for the couple. The woman does not "do" ochos
as
the man does something else, or nothing. THEY do ochos, or whatever.
Took me
quite a while, stupid me, to realize some of the finer logical
consequences
of this. Oh, by the way, a woman and a wall do not constitute a couple,
either.

Cheers,

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:12:20 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Neverending Ochos

There is a very easy solution to this problem: Take a tango lesson.

Seriously. I have never, ever seen this to be a problem with an
experienced follower. It only happens with beginners.


To make this comment more general...What makes the learning process
move more quickly?


For women in particular, learning on the dance floor locks in a bunch
of bad habits. I've noticed that women often improve quickly for the
first 3 months, then they get worse for the next 3 months. Then they
start to improve again as they take lessons to clean up the bad
habits.

The fastest way for a woman to learn tango is to work extensively
with an excellent leader. This can skip the 3 months of decline.
They'll learn even more quickly if they can avoid dancing with the
intermediate guys who don't take lessons but know a lot of
vocabulary. Beginner guys are less of a problem because they don't
lead the women through very difficult material.


A second thing that slows down learning for the women is to move too
quickly through vocabulary. Vocabulary is super-easy for the woman
once they have the necessary technique. You can't do an ocho smoothly
without having a clean axis and the ability to walk smoothly, You
can't do a turn without the ability to ocho, spiral and pivot.
Awkwardly practicing grapevine turns before you have achieved a
foundation slows down your learning because it takes your focus away
from learning the walk and ochos.


How do guys speed up their learning?

Repetition, repetition, repetition of simple movements to build muscle memory.

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 15:32:37 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Neverending Ochos

Referring to the postings by Carlos Rojas, and to a lesser extent Tom
Stermitz,

I would like to clarify, just in case, that I was not agreeing or disagreeing
with any one on anything. I simply took my tocayo's quote as a jumping board,
and re-used the subject line just to be contrary: the unending ochos are no
kind of problem at all to me. Well, maybe they were five times in as many
years, a few seconds at a time, with first timers; and you better believe
that I used some form of the Carlos Rojas recipe to deal with it.

My main points were on the "technology of connection" which, as all subjects
in tango, gets sometimes rather rough treatment. I actually agree with Carlos
in the sense that (in the case of the woman more so) I consider it more
important at first to have a well toned frame / embrace than to worry
overmuch about 100% relaxation. I have said so several times in this forum.
Once the habit of a dead connection is acquired, it may be forever. I know
plenty of examples. It is not either or: you need to make sure to make your
partners comfortable AND to have a very good connection with each of them, if
their skill allows it.

Another point, and in this my tocayo and I may differ just a little, there is
not one right kind of connection, quite beyond the very evident differences
between the classic dance, the milonguero way, and the avant guarde.

On this score, what about Argentine dancers (in my case just women, please)?
My experience is with all kinds of visitors and Argentines who live in the
USA, from just people to great masters. I find them no different than the
rest of the world: there are all kinds there too. But I do sympathize with
what CRojas has to say, in the sense that a minority of Argentinean women
offer an unusual level of resistance (maybe reluctance is a better word), and
need to be ReallY moved. They are not in the majority, quite the contrary. To
me it is all the same: my job is to adapt to the follower's style of
following, and provide the necessary lead. I am not one to explain to the
lady how I want her to behave, though you would be surprised to find out some
of those who are. (No, I will not name names.)

In a related point, my main point really, is that the connection is, well,
ought to be, what the lady wants it to be. In terms of how firm or how light
it is, for example. In a sense it cannot be otherwise. (I am assuming here,
of course, that both sides are competent dancers.) This is something that is
not often stated, perhaps not even widely realized. Or maybe my introspection
results are kind of odd.

(It suddenly occurred to me: what might be the relationship between all of
this and the observation that a number of tango luminaries dance practically
only with their steady partners? Hmm ...)

Cheers,

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:31:31 -0800
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Neverending Ochos

I agree with Tom S. that the unending ocho problem can
be solved really easily in a couple of lessons. One
common misconception, as other people have mentioned,
is when women are taught their "part" so without being
lead we learn there is this thing called back ochos
and practice pivoting. Then when the leader suggests
it, we go "yay! back ochos" and really throw in that
killer pivot that we've been practicing, which unless
the man has a strong connection, easily throws the guy
off. When I first started, I thought there was a
particular way I was supposed to do the ocho, then
after more experience found that it's all about
staying connected to the leader and that if I stay
with his torso, the back ocho just happens when we are
in crossed system. Sometimes there is a lot of pivot
and sometimes really non at all, depending on his
style. After more experience I have developed
stylistic ways of interpreting the music with my back
ochos making them smooth and sultry or whip snappy
rhythmical, sticky or embellished with crossing my
ankles or other things as the music might call for but
this doesn't change the connection in my torso which I
maintain strongly with the leader and with the
intensity that he suggests.

--- Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> actually agree with Carlos
> in the sense that (in the case of the woman more so)
> I consider it more
> important at first to have a well toned frame /
> embrace than to worry
> overmuch about 100% relaxation.

I also agree with Carlos Rojas, because I am a student
of his. Mainly what he has always emphasized to me is
that the embrace should be a sincere, caring embrace.
There is not any particular need for discussion of
strong, or stiff or whatever because if you embrace
your partner in the way that you would embrace your
lover or your good friend or your mother, warmly and
securely then your embrace will always be correct.
I am primarily thinking of close embrace here, because
I don't usually dance open, but you might be able to
accomplish the same thing in open. What do you think?

> me it is all the same: my job is to adapt to the
> follower's style of
> following, and provide the necessary lead. I am not

And similarly the women adapt their style of following
to accompany you. It really goes both ways. And
that's what makes it so fun.

> This is something that is
> not often stated, perhaps not even widely realized.
> Or maybe my introspection
> results are kind of odd.

It is important to respect your partner. Like I
stated before, I tend to go with the warm loving
embrace and sometimes I have found guys that aren't
really used to that, in the beginning of the embrace
they can be tentative but after several moments they
really warm up to it. It is all about making your
partner feel secure. Bother partners are responsible
for this.

One of the most exciting things that I have found
possible through dancing is the ability to really help
a person open up and be themselves. It is sort of
like good listening. Both partners are responsible
for this attitude. When we are focused on each other
and really open to the feelings that are occurring and
relaxed, then it is as if the room melts away and the
music pours through us and it is no longer about
bodies at all, just heart.

Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:49:22 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Neverending Ochos

"...no longer about bodies at all, just heart." Rose, you are a genius.
Thank you.

J

Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work and

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:31:35 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Still not about Neverending Ochos

Prompted by the phrase 'I thought that the standard mantra was "The man
indicates - the lady leads - the man follows"' in a posting by Laurie Moseley
not long ago, some vaguely related comments.

Yes, it is some kind of standard mantra, but in my opinion it oughtn't to be.
Again, results of introspection, no universality claims implied.

I believe the leader (traditionally the man) leads; best if in a
non-dictatorial way---but that is a higher level of achievement for the
couple. I believe the follower follows; best if her following is not
mechanical, and her participation in the shaping of the dance is strong---but
that is a higher level of achievement for the couple. I apologize for such
un-exciting ideas. I tend towards the pedestrian.

Whoever does the leading does not normally do so by indication. Leading is
not much at all about signaling, coded messages, or the like. It is also not
discrete, one lead at a time, but rather a continuous, uninterrupted,
process. The leader leads by guiding the joint movement of the couple in a
continuous manner; often doing some of her moving himself; most often being
the main mover (rather more than 50% of the energy), as well as the mainstay.

I am not talking about ethereal feelings here, not philosophizing, not
engaging in pedagogical metaphor: I am talking about what my introspection
tells me is going on in the earthy world of matter and of the senses.

Here's a thought experiment. An actual experiment, really, and food for
thought, I hope. It starts with the couple ready for a woman's traba (cross).
The man is now going to lead the couple v-e-r-y-y...s-l-o-w-l-y-y (I mean,
really very slowly) so that the woman, standing on, say, her right foot,
crosses her left in front s-l-o-w-l-y and changes weight s-l-o-w-l-y onto it.
The whole thing can take easily 10 or 20 seconds. For those who believe in
the follower leading and the leader following: what should my indication/s
be? What should her lead/s be? How should I follow?

Perhaps the leading and following really happen continuously and
simultaneously. That's a thought. Perhaps that is what really happens when I
am doing this sort of thing.

Can I make sense of the "he invites, indicates, etc; she leads; he follows"
thing? Metaphorically, and perhaps misleadingly, I can. I mean, sort of. The
couple are standing, parallel system, feet together. The leader (say, a man)
wants to start moving forward, leading the woman back. He brings the frame,
and everything more or less directly attached to it, forward. He adjusts his
axis (and, more importantly, the woman's) in the direction his nose is
pointing. Hey, he is SignalinG, he is InvitinG! At some point the woman is
reaching towards the limit of her supporting base, so she starts extending
her leg back. Hey, she is LeadinG! (Meaning in this case simply that she is
"going first"). Of course he better FolloW right after, or he will be left
behind. There you got it: he proposes, she leads, he follows.

After this the man will, say, move steadily forward, maintaining proper
connection. This is what simpleton me does for a lead. And I stop when I want
the couple to stop.

I could now try, for my benefit or that of some unfortunate neophyte, to
describe this very simple process in terms of a sequence of infinitesimal
"man's invitation / woman's lead / man's follow" triplets. I think the result
would be like that genius clock that found out it could calculate how many
tick-tocks it was likely to have to make in its useful life span. So it did.
In the thousands of millions. It was so overwhelmed by the enormity of the
task that it could not bring itself to make even one more tick ... ever
again. The average-intelligence clock in the next room kept on ticking ...

I think this reverse logic of lead and follow is one of these overly clever
things that are invented in the tango world, a fertile ground for inventions
(great inventions, too). I have even found people swearing by the mantra, and
trying (for a very short while ...) to put it into practice. In this one case
I danced with the believer, and I could not for all the tea in China have her
step together with me in an elementary walk.

In my simpleton ways the leader leads by assuming a principal role in guiding
the movement of the couple; which he does primarily through the attitude and
movements of his upper torso (everything between neck and waist, plus
possibly tummy, if he's got one); movements which are produced by his ...
power train. He is always leading, even when there is (practically) no
movement in the couple. (Shshsh, he is leading a PausE.)

The follower follows by sensing the very subtle guidance pressures (not coded
cues!) created by the lead, and moving and reshaping her body to relieve
them, as her body recognises "vocabulary" being led, as a result of prior
exposure to it. Constantly, continuously. (I sound almost like a competition
ballroom type writing about THEIR lead-follow, don't I? It is malicious. It
is on purpose.)

So there is no first-then; there is no he-this-she-that. It is nothing like
telegraphic communication. The technique of leading and following gets
refined over weeks and years of practice, and subtle little dialogues like
the one needed to get going on a walk from a stop are learned, mostly
unconsciously. It is worth being made aware of some of them. Like the one
just mentioned: it really helps beginning leaders learn the ropes.

In addition, there is plenty of following by the man in tango. From
recovering from a "mistake" to attaining that total understanding of bodies
that blurs the distinction between leader and follower. And yes, many leads
do have the flavour of invitations. Yes, the man has often to wait for the
woman to do this or that, or start moving. The description of particular
situations as invitation plus reversed lead-follow does make some sort of
sense here and there: basically, when the leader is "initiating something";
but I think one can do rather better without it.

Anyway, the foregoing is not what the mantra says, as usually interpreted,
which is: as a general principle of how "la marca" works. In this sense,the
mantra is basically imaginative nonsense. To me, of course.

Cheers,

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:27:29 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Still not about Neverending Ochos

Carlos Lima wrote:

> Whoever does the leading does not normally do so by indication. Leading is
> not much at all about signaling, coded messages, or the like. It is also

not

> discrete, one lead at a time, but rather a continuous, uninterrupted,
> process. The leader leads by guiding the joint movement of the couple in a
> continuous manner; often doing some of her moving himself; most often

being

> the main mover (rather more than 50% of the energy), as well as the

mainstay.

>

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this posting, as here is, IMHO, a man talking
some sense. (hello, Carlos ; ) )
I have, for a long time, tried to analyse what exactly it is that draws the
eye to some tango couple, holding the attention, and fascinating the
observer. I think, a great part of it is just this: that there are two
people moving in total in unison, joined together as if by magic. Their
movements form one long, continuous flow togetherness, harmony, and
interplay. Something that we all wish for, but that, unfortunately, almost
never happens in real life.
Nothing like "the man indicates-the lady leads-the man follows". This would
take much too long to create the phenomenon described above. In my opinion,
this three-step-technique is for people who basically don't really know how
to lead or follow, and tend to dance from the head, instead of from, yes,
from what....? This is another phenomenon that I have been puzzling over
ever since I started to learn tango. In the beginning I felt, that maybe I
should go back to studying the laws of physics more carefully, and kept
hoping that my teacher would explain "the law of frame dynamics" to me in a
set of so many rules. He never did. In fact, he did not talk much at all,
but instead demanded again and again from me:"Do not think !!" A Japanese
Zen master could not have done better... I never quite understood, how
exactly it worked, but just noticed that it did, eventually. An experience
not unlike learning how to meditate.
Yesterday I talked to my tango partner on the phone, who had to spend the
holiday season dancing with other people while I was in Germany. He told me
the newest gossip: "XY has become a tango teacher at Z's studio. He does not
really teach tango, he teaches his own style. His movements are interesting
and somewhat unique, but..." "Yes, I know, he leads by moving the wrist of
his left hand", I inserted. "Colourful, but very hard on the woman who has
to perform all those pivots [and here we are back at the subject title]
while he just wags his hand." "Yes", he said, he basically dances by
himself. He only dances with certain women, too. Basically with those who
also dance by themselves."
This is quoting one extreme exemple. Two people dancing on their own, joined
by the power of one hand. Looks like tango, but is closer in character to
salsa or rock n' roll, I imagine. The three step technique of
"indicate-lead-follow" is, frankly, for people who know the steps, and like
to dance not together, but one after the other. If you want to know what the
result can look like, watch the ludicrous combination of Daniel Trenner
forcing himself on Florencia Taccetti, in the video for "technique and
adornments for followers" (Bridge to the tango), in the final minutes of the
otherwise brilliant tape. It looks like a humble VW engine trying to drive a
fully equipped Mercedes Benz. Daniel "indicates" instead of leads, Florencia
tries to make to the most of the mediocre lead, Daniel then somewhat lamely
and stiffly follows her powerful, flamboyant movement. None of this nonsense
when Florencia dances with the , admittedly slightly less flamboyant than
her but better loved Julio Mendes, earlier in the video. Their dance is a
relaxed, gentle flow of well coordinated movements, leaving a grin on
Florencia's face in the end.

Back from Berlin and the cold Holstein, wearing a dark blue "Northwind"
brand Danish sweater
Happy New Year, everyone
Astrid

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:18:46 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Tango: goals vs. means (was: Still not Neverending Ochos)

Carlos Lima wrote:
Whoever does the leading does not normally do so by indication. Leading is
not much at all about signaling, coded messages, or the like. It is also not
discrete, one lead at a time, but rather a continuous, uninterrupted,
process.

Astrid replied:
I have, for a long time, tried to analyse what exactly it is that draws the
eye...there are two people moving in total in unison...Nothing like "the man
indicates-the lady leads-the man follows". This would take much too long to
create the phenomenon described above.
<<<

This sub-discussion started with the mantra: "the man indicates - the lady
leads - the man follows"
and Carlos' observation that this doesn't match his experience or
observation of how lead/follow works, which Astrid corroborates with her
lyrical description of beautiful eye-catching connected dancing.
Nevertheless I have heard versions of the mantra over and over from
respected tango teachers - from my own experience in studying both tango AND
teaching with them, Daniel Trenner and Luciana Valle jump immediately to
mind. (Daniel: "Make her go first, then accompany her"; Luciana: "First she,
then we.") These teachers have intercontinental reputations in teaching
beginners to tango, and can take credit for many thousands of students and
up to three generations of tango teachers in their wake. I'm thus inclined
to think there's something of value in the mantra for many of those seeking
tango mastery.

>>>

In my opinion, this three-step-technique is for people who basically don't
really know how
to lead....
<<<
Exactly. I suggest that it's useful in these discussions to distinguish
between means and ends, and also to recognize that the "mantra" is primarily
directed at beginning leaders (as Daniel's and Luciana's versions imply).
Demonstrations of superb connected tango dancing, such as those Astrid
describes, can offer inspiration and a "comparative benchmark" for
determining when a goal is achieved, but are woefully inefficient as a means
of explaining to beginner leaders how to arrive at the goal.

The "mantra" in all its forms makes more sense as a VERY VERY slowed-down
version of what actually happens from the leader's perspective in superb
dancing. This learning technique is well understood by musicians.
Guitarists are quite accustomed to the idea of recording fast licks by
players they admire, then using electronics to slow down the playing speed
to manageable levels for their current skill level without distorting the
pitch while they sequentially figure out the lick. Once they get the lick
down, of course they speed it up! - "playing slow" is never the goal, just a
learning method to get over a certain technique "hump". Soon the individual
notes, and the discrete effort and concentration required to sequentially
play each one, merge into the seamless flowing playing that is the real
goal.

I predict that tango teachers and many beginner leaders (who, as Astrid
says, may have a predisposition to linear thinking) will appreciate the
"mantra" in its various forms, while accomplished social tango dancers,
especially followers, will find it inappropriately sequential and
unrepresentative of their seamless flowing experience...I suggest in these
discussions having patience with these beginners and the methods they need
as they pursue the goal you have perhaps already achieved...and be ready to
welcome them and enjoy them as they "speed up" their playing! ;)

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:39:08 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Teaching vs. dancing (was: Tango: goals vs. means (was: Neverending Ochos))

In discussion of lead-follow-lead mechanics Brian Dunn quoted Daniel
Trenner: "Make her go first, then accompany her".

The issue here is separation of man s torso lead from his feet. The torso
lead always precedes the stepping: leader torso lead - follower leg extend -
both step (otherwise we would step on each other feet, and beginners often
do). I should note that I don't really see any follower lead in this
sequence of events. I spend half of the very first lesson teaching leaders
how to lead with torso before stepping. Of course when I dance I do not
have to think about it since by this time the concept is ingrained in my
muscle memory. Hence the apparent smoothness of the lead.


Cheers, Oleh K.

https://TangoSpring.com

>From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
>Reply-To: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango: goals vs. means (was: Still not Neverending
>Ochos)
>Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:18:46 -0700
>
>Carlos Lima wrote:
>Whoever does the leading does not normally do so by indication. Leading is
>not much at all about signaling, coded messages, or the like. It is also
>not
>discrete, one lead at a time, but rather a continuous, uninterrupted,
>process.
>
>Astrid replied:
>I have, for a long time, tried to analyse what exactly it is that draws the
>eye...there are two people moving in total in unison...Nothing like "the
>man
>indicates-the lady leads-the man follows". This would take much too long to
>create the phenomenon described above.
><<<
>
>This sub-discussion started with the mantra: "the man indicates - the lady
>leads - the man follows"
>and Carlos' observation that this doesn't match his experience or
>observation of how lead/follow works, which Astrid corroborates with her
>lyrical description of beautiful eye-catching connected dancing.
>Nevertheless I have heard versions of the mantra over and over from
>respected tango teachers - from my own experience in studying both tango
>AND
>teaching with them, Daniel Trenner and Luciana Valle jump immediately to
>mind. (Daniel: "Make her go first, then accompany her"; Luciana: "First
>she,
>then we.") These teachers have intercontinental reputations in teaching
>beginners to tango, and can take credit for many thousands of students and
>up to three generations of tango teachers in their wake. I'm thus inclined
>to think there's something of value in the mantra for many of those seeking
>tango mastery.
>
> >>>
>In my opinion, this three-step-technique is for people who basically don't
>really know how
>to lead....
><<<
>Exactly. I suggest that it's useful in these discussions to distinguish
>between means and ends, and also to recognize that the "mantra" is
>primarily
>directed at beginning leaders (as Daniel's and Luciana's versions imply).
>Demonstrations of superb connected tango dancing, such as those Astrid
>describes, can offer inspiration and a "comparative benchmark" for
>determining when a goal is achieved, but are woefully inefficient as a
>means
>of explaining to beginner leaders how to arrive at the goal.
>
>The "mantra" in all its forms makes more sense as a VERY VERY slowed-down
>version of what actually happens from the leader's perspective in superb
>dancing. This learning technique is well understood by musicians.
>Guitarists are quite accustomed to the idea of recording fast licks by
>players they admire, then using electronics to slow down the playing speed
>to manageable levels for their current skill level without distorting the
>pitch while they sequentially figure out the lick. Once they get the lick
>down, of course they speed it up! - "playing slow" is never the goal, just
>a
>learning method to get over a certain technique "hump". Soon the
>individual
>notes, and the discrete effort and concentration required to sequentially
>play each one, merge into the seamless flowing playing that is the real
>goal.
>
>I predict that tango teachers and many beginner leaders (who, as Astrid
>says, may have a predisposition to linear thinking) will appreciate the
>"mantra" in its various forms, while accomplished social tango dancers,
>especially followers, will find it inappropriately sequential and
>unrepresentative of their seamless flowing experience...I suggest in these
>discussions having patience with these beginners and the methods they need
>as they pursue the goal you have perhaps already achieved...and be ready to
>welcome them and enjoy them as they "speed up" their playing! ;)
>
>All the best,
>Brian Dunn
>Dance of the Heart
>Boulder, Colorado USA
>1(303)938-0716
>https://www.danceoftheheart.com

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