2873 nirvana
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 03:04:54 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: nirvana
Ok list, I know I'm gonna get killed over this one,,,but you know one
big difference? My name is Michael Figart II, I live at 1110 Woodhill Rd
Houston Tx 77008. I'll send you a map if you like. My phone is
281-731-5237....in fact, if you catch me in a good mood, call me at
800-443-4873. I've always posted, good or bad, as Michael from Houston.
And Pichi does not hide behind weird pseudonyms....you know who is
posting, and who to respond to!
Pichi, thanks for your constructive criticism, and I'm sorry that not
more people take more heed of your advice....
I'm not ?iso-8859 sometimes known as the coward Aron, or sometimes
known as the coward Gulden (yup! Same addresses)...or does anybody know
who this is? If you can't post with your real name AND LOCATION, get the
hell off of this list. Yes, I've had problems on this list, but I've
never tried to hide me, my name, or my location......but there are those
who can' even give their real name to start with???? Come on, and get
with the business at hand.......
Its after 2:00 in the morning, and the votes are already rolling
in.....but followers; please let me know. This is a scientific poll.
To quantify, and make perfectly clear....followers please vote yes or no
to the following question.....
Can you experience this "tango trance", or some sort of "nirvana", or at
the very least "a mutual experience of extreme satisfaction" in any
other embrace than that from a "tango milonguero embrace"?
Allright, say you're dancing salon, nice and close, enjoying the music,
enjoying each other, etc, having a good time, but to do many of these
moves you must stop, and separate, or hesitate, and open up, do this
weird parada, or walkover, or brush, or whatever........oops, what
happened........where did you go?
Warm regards,
Michael from Houston
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 04:06:04 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: nirvana
Michael Figart II wrote:
><snip>
>
>I'm not sometimes known as the coward Aron, or sometimes
>known as the coward Gulden (yup! Same addresses)...or does anybody know
>who this is?
>
As I had to deal with this sort of thing a while ago, I used some tools I
wrote at the time to check their email headers for the last 2 months.
In that time period, Gulden has posted every time from the same IP in the
United States and Ecsedy posted from an entirely different IP in Hungary;
I couldn't find either address in any list of open proxies that I track.
Michael, if you're accusing Ecsedy Aron & Gulden Ozen (sorry, people, I
know I'm not spelling your names right) of having more in common than than
being two humans infected with the ardent love of tango (yep, different
genders too), I think you're way off base.
Now back to tango, please.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:38:37 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: nirvana
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: michaelfigart@yahoo.com
>I'm not ?iso-8859 sometimes known as the coward Aron, or sometimes
>known as the coward Gulden (yup! Same addresses)...or does anybody know
>who this is? If you can't post with your real name AND LOCATION, get the
>hell off of this list. Yes, I've had problems on this list, but I've
>never tried to hide me, my name, or my location......but there are those
>who can' even give their real name to start with???? Come on, and get
>with the business at hand.......
Michael, I've not met Ecsedy but I know Gulden. These are real people and
not "cowards" of any kind. I find it pretty reckless to attack people for
their opinions specially levelling false accusations. It's fine to disagree
and discuss issues, but it's not fine to level ad hominem attacks on other
members of the list. Oh yeah, if you are really disgusted with the people
here who write under pseudonyms, you can always participate in the ATOF list
which requires full identity disclosure by their mambers.
Regards,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:11:25 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: nirvana
This is probably too stupid to even respond to, but I
have laid eyes on Gulden Ozen and she is as real as
can be. You can find the website belonging to her and
her partner?/husband? Jason Laughlin
https://www.tangophilia.com/
Marisa
> Michael Figart II wrote:
>I'm not sometimes known as the coward Aron, or
> sometimes
> >known as the coward Gulden (yup! Same
> addresses)...or does anybody know
> >who this is?
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:08:03 -0700
From: bodenst-tango9427@MAILBLOCKS.COM
Subject: Re: nirvana
Michael:
Yes, I used to experience tango heaven in open embrace. It does
happen. Most follows don't start out in close embrace, but they get
seduced and addicted nevertheless.
However, since I've started dancing estilo apilado (milonguero style) I
don't dance any other way, and the place that I go is somewhere
altogether new. I will only dance open at the insistence of the lead,
and it's just not the same.
See you in tango heaven sometime.
Abrazos,
Carrie B.
Oregon
>To quantify, and make perfectly clear....followers please vote yes or
no
to the following question.....
>Can you experience this "tango trance", or some sort of "nirvana", or
at
the very least "a mutual experience of extreme satisfaction" in any
other embrace than that from a "tango milonguero embrace"?
~~~~~~~~
"Guys, to dance tango, you must listen to the heart of the woman."
--Cacho Dante
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 17:40:35 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: nirvana
[Michael writes ...]
Allright, say you're dancing salon, nice and close, enjoying the music,
enjoying each other, etc, having a good time, but to do many of these
moves you must stop, and separate, or hesitate, and open up, do this
weird parada, or walkover, or brush, or whatever........oops, what
happened........where did you go?
--------------------
It is entirely possible to do such steps without losing the "connection,"
that is, the energetic/emotional synchronicity, vibing together, whatever
you want to call it, even though paradoxically the physical connection is
broken. The trick has to do with several subtle things. First and most
important is intention, that you maintain your focus on your partner and
your connectoin to him/her even though potentially distracted by this
unusual step that seems to be demanding your attention. Second is that even
steps that require a "stop" of some sort, you consciously maintain if not
some subtle movement of your bodies, at least you maintain with your intent
some subtle movement of your energy. This can be as un-perceptable as your
internal visualization, or one step less subtle to being a movement of your
breathing to maintain the flow of energy through the temporarily suspended
physical movement. And third, when you do stop and start, you avoid doing it
abruptly, instead slowing down and "easing into" the stop, and again when
you resume physical movement, you move gradually, starting from zero and
moving very slowly at first, then ramping at increasing speed-slope to your
final speed of motion.
I'm indebted to Andrew Burt for helping me recognize some of these concepts.
Andrew is a brilliant and highly creative if sometimes floorcraft-challenged
young dancer in Portland. :-)
Jay in Portland
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:30:30 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: nirvana
It I was in a tango trance, and my leader pushed me away in order to do some
sort of "figure", I would feel a bit of "tangus interruptus".
When I look back at the best "tango moments", they have always been in close
embrace.
Lois Donnay
A Real Person who Lives in Minneapolis, MN
> To quantify, and make perfectly clear....followers please
> vote yes or no to the following question.....
>
>
>
> Can you experience this "tango trance", or some sort of
> "nirvana", or at the very least "a mutual experience of
> extreme satisfaction" in any other embrace than that from a
> "tango milonguero embrace"?
>
>
>
> Allright, say you're dancing salon, nice and close, enjoying
> the music, enjoying each other, etc, having a good time, but
> to do many of these moves you must stop, and separate, or
> hesitate, and open up, do this weird parada, or walkover, or
> brush, or whatever........oops, what happened........where did you go?
>
>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:45:12 -0700
From: Jay Jenkins <jayjenkins888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Nirvana, pseudonyms and other subjects.
In first place I wish to apologize to Carlos Amok for
attributing to him the wrong post. Where I said Carlos
I should have said a different name.
Michael
You are totally wrong (as usual).
What is that rant about the coward Ecsedy, Aron,
Gulden? Who are you to tell anybody that he/she
should use their real name to post? They are (IMO)
very real people that have the right (according to the
rules of tango-L) to post under their own names or
under any pseudonym that they may prefer to use.
So you met Pichi and talked to Teo, big deal.
You describe your tango as "milonguero" only God knows
what you do and certainly,not very well, according to
judges of recognized excellent reputation .
We are happy to know that you dance to impress nobody
other than your partner. According to testimonials
published in this list you could not impress anybody
even if you tried, do you really think you impress
your partner?
Then you describe the usual cliche of what tango is,
to proceed with the assertion that this is only
possible in the type of tango that is danced by nobody
else than you. Close embrace milonguero.
Yo have to be kidding here! :)) I concede, it is a
good joke.:))
The tango attributes and the experience by it
generated can be found in any of the styles. This is
supported by the experience of many old milongueros
with whom I discussed this subject.
Then you come with the question : What do you think
followers?
The answer will only be valid in the case somebody
dances several styles, as it is done by Jackie Ling
Wong. She experiences a "trace" or "Zone" in any of
those styles (Salon, milonguero, nuevo)
(congratulations Jackie). If somebody dances only one
style then her possibility to have such an experience
will obviously be limited to that style.
Finally you asked that I contribute to the list.
I think that to clarify all the errors and
misconceptions that you have in your head will take a
lot more than my modest contribution, but this is a
beginning.
Cheers, Jay
Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:59:06 -0700
From: liberal drool <liberal_drool@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Nirvana, pseudonyms and other subjects.
I concur with Jay. Michael Figart II is a clueless dufus. How a loser like him got to be President of a Tango Society is psycho. Perhaps we now know where Herve went...
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:24:20 -0700
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Nirvana, pseudonyms and other subjects.
Jay,Marissa,Liberal drool? and others: Let4s Michael
find the Nirvana with the people of the group.And let
him express his ego.Don4t you see the NEED!,but do not
do the same atackt,there is no need of that.
Daniel.
--- liberal drool <liberal_drool@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> I concur with Jay. Michael Figart II is a clueless
> dufus. How a loser like him got to be President of a
> Tango Society is psycho. Perhaps we now know where
> Herve went...
>
>
> protection around
>
=====
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
_______________________________
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:29:35 -0500
From: Ben <bblomgren@WI.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Nirvana, pseudonyms and other subjects.
Thank You Daniel. As usual, the voice of reason and class.\
Ben.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Nirvana, pseudonyms and other subjects.
> Jay,Marissa,Liberal drool? and others: Let4s Michael
> find the Nirvana with the people of the group.And let
> him express his ego.Don4t you see the NEED!,but do not
> do the same atackt,there is no need of that.
> Daniel.
> --- liberal drool <liberal_drool@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>> I concur with Jay. Michael Figart II is a clueless
>> dufus. How a loser like him got to be President of a
>> Tango Society is psycho. Perhaps we now know where
>> Herve went...
>>
>>
>> protection around
>>
>
>
> =====
>
> Daniel Lapadula
> ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________
>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 23:26:33 -0600
From: Bernhard Michaelis <bernhard@NATIVECHILD.COM>
Subject: Re: nirvana
hmmm...(I'm scratching my head)..that is a lot to consider when the
physical connection is broken. (Sheepish look) Wouldn't it be easier
just to stay connected and not have to go through all this trouble? And
just dance 'milonguero' style? (Ducking and running away)
Bernhard
> It is entirely possible to do such steps without losing the
"connection,"
> that is, the energetic/emotional synchronicity, vibing together,
whatever
> you want to call it, even though paradoxically the physical connection
is
> broken. The trick has to do with several subtle things. First and most
> important is intention, that you maintain your focus on your partner
and
> your connectoin to him/her even though potentially distracted by this
> unusual step that seems to be demanding your attention. Second is that
even
> steps that require a "stop" of some sort, you consciously maintain if
not
> some subtle movement of your bodies, at least you maintain with your
intent
> some subtle movement of your energy. This can be as un-perceptable as
your
> internal visualization, or one step less subtle to being a movement of
your
> breathing to maintain the flow of energy through the temporarily
suspended
> physical movement. And third, when you do stop and start, you avoid
doing it
> abruptly, instead slowing down and "easing into" the stop, and again
when
> you resume physical movement, you move gradually, starting from zero
and
> moving very slowly at first, then ramping at increasing speed-slope to
your
> final speed of motion.
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:54:37 -0400
From: jackie ling wong <jackie.wong@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: nirvana
hi bernard,
i think it all boils down to connection... but i feel that "connection" is
not just physical (keeping the bodies connected)...
someone once told me that juan bruno said that the dance goes from the
brain, through the heart to the feet...rather or not a person agrees with
the entire statement, i don't think anyone would disagree about the
importance of the heart to this dance.
if one is open (not just to the dance but to the person), you can have tango
"nirvana" with dancers who are sensitive leaders but might be a beginner, a
very old person with poor balance, an obese person, etc in any dance style.
one has to just put aside their predispositions/prejudices... just like in
life. then the possibilities are endless.
hope that helps
jackie
www.tangopulse.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] nirvana
hmmm...(I'm scratching my head)..that is a lot to consider when the
physical connection is broken. (Sheepish look) Wouldn't it be easier
just to stay connected and not have to go through all this trouble? And
just dance 'milonguero' style? (Ducking and running away)
Bernhard
> It is entirely possible to do such steps without losing the
"connection,"
> that is, the energetic/emotional synchronicity, vibing together,
whatever
> you want to call it, even though paradoxically the physical connection
is
> broken. The trick has to do with several subtle things. First and most
> important is intention, that you maintain your focus on your partner
and
> your connectoin to him/her even though potentially distracted by this
> unusual step that seems to be demanding your attention. Second is that
even
> steps that require a "stop" of some sort, you consciously maintain if
not
> some subtle movement of your bodies, at least you maintain with your
intent
> some subtle movement of your energy. This can be as un-perceptable as
your
> internal visualization, or one step less subtle to being a movement of
your
> breathing to maintain the flow of energy through the temporarily
suspended
> physical movement. And third, when you do stop and start, you avoid
doing it
> abruptly, instead slowing down and "easing into" the stop, and again
when
> you resume physical movement, you move gradually, starting from zero
and
> moving very slowly at first, then ramping at increasing speed-slope to
your
> final speed of motion.
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:40:44 -0500
From: "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@MPR.ORG>
Subject: Nirvana (as a) Tango
Hi-
Getting back to "Nirvana" and "Tango", here is a link to an MP3 of my band (the Mandragora Tango Orchestra) playing a Tango version of =
Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit":
https://www.mandragoratango.com/sounds/TeenSpirit.mp3
You can download more full-length MP3s at https://www.mandragoratango.com/
(For those that don't know, "Nirvana" is the name of a famous rock band that was headed by Kurt Cobain (no relation to Carlos Cobian). "Smells =
Like Teen Spirit" was a very popular tune at a time when most of the musicians in Mandragora were grungy rock-n-rollers. I made this =
arrangement as if Cobain could tango or Piazzolla wore flannel)
-Bob Barnes
info@mandragoratango.com
612.722.2554
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:25:31 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: nirvana
Jackie Ling Wong wrote:
>but i feel that "connection" is
not just physical (keeping the bodies connected)...<
A couple of questions:
Under cultural differences, does it mean that a hug as done in Buenos Aires
or in other Latin cultures, i.e., between friends, family members, etc.,
will have the same effect regardless if the hug is casual, or strong?
What about hand shaking, does handshaking have the same effect on people
when it is done in a timid or strong manner?
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:07:31 -0700
From: Dolores Longo <madolo@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: True tango/nirvana
Here I go, after 7 years of mostly silence, except for
the occassional announcement...
Thank you Jay Rabe for expressing my thoughts better
than I could have in English :"It is entirely possible
to do such steps without losing the "connection," that
is, the energetic/emotional synchronicity, vibing
together, whatever
you want to call it, even though paradoxically the
physical connection ..." .
And here goes my answer to the "poll", prefaced by a
brief introduction: I dance milonguero, close embrace,
apilado 99.9% of the time (sorry, unfortunately I have
little time to dance and none to loose myself in
definitions)
In my personal experience it is perfectly possible to
achieve "nirvana" dancing any sort of open embrace and
certainly new, tango. I have been there. A
perfect/great leader is not necessary, although it
certainly adds to the experience.
IMHO one can feel intention and energy without touch,
and lack of musicality can happen in bad dancers of
any style.
As for the steps being in the way of the connection
and/or music, it happens in close embrace also,
whenever a leader is learning to lead a new step.
Undoubtedly, that is why teachers of every style keep
advising to stick to what you know when you are at a
milonga.
Dolores
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:46:30 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: nirvana
Bruno, while I generally like your knowledgable posts, I couldn't read
between the lines to guess where you were going with your questions. Could
you elaborate on the point you want to make?
Jay in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Reply-To: romerob@telusplanet.net
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] nirvana
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:01:44 -0400
From: jackie ling wong <jackie.wong@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: nirvana
> Jackie Ling Wong wrote:
>
> >but i feel that "connection" is
> not just physical (keeping the bodies connected)...<
>
> A couple of questions:
>
> Under cultural differences, does it mean that a hug as done in Buenos
Aires
> or in other Latin cultures, i.e., between friends, family members, etc.,
> will have the same effect regardless if the hug is casual, or strong?
>
> What about hand shaking, does handshaking have the same effect on people
> when it is done in a timid or strong manner?
>
> Regards,
>
> Bruno
>
hi bruno,
exactly... i agree...being close... touching... doesn't necessarily
translate to connection.
it's the quality of that touch... or even "non touch"..eyes for example
jackie
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:35:49 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: nirvana
Bruno wrote:
"A couple of questions:
- Under cultural differences, does it mean that a hug as done in Buenos
Aires or in other Latin cultures, i.e., between friends, family members,
etc., will have the same effect regardless if the hug is casual, or strong?
- What about hand shaking, does handshaking have the same effect on people
when it is done in a timid or strong manner?"
Bruno,
In my experience, a hug is a hug, regardless of race or cultural
differences, however I think Latin culture is comfortable with hugging, I
found teaching in the USA that people here are reluctant to hug at first,
but they eventually get it and love it.
When I was in BA last March, I met a group of people from Korea, there was a
married couple among them, they asked me for help with their dance, I was
very surprised when I tried to embrace them to dance, they said that they
don't hug/touch even between husband and wife, then naturally my question to
them was: "How do you procreate?", I just got giggles out of them, the
married woman jokingly said that she hugs/kisses her husband when she wanted
money.
I eventually danced with some of them in close embrace, they were scared at
first, then let go and at least I had a good time dancing.
To me "tango nirvana" only happens when I am attracted to the woman, and
only in close embrace (I am to much of a Latin guy to waste a dance with a
beautiful woman in open frame and to feel connection without body contact),
however I can have very good dances with women I am not attracted to, but it
ain't nirvana.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:02 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] nirvana
> Jackie Ling Wong wrote:
>
> >but i feel that "connection" is
> not just physical (keeping the bodies connected)...<
>
> A couple of questions:
>
> Under cultural differences, does it mean that a hug as done in Buenos
Aires
> or in other Latin cultures, i.e., between friends, family members, etc.,
> will have the same effect regardless if the hug is casual, or strong?
>
> What about hand shaking, does handshaking have the same effect on people
> when it is done in a timid or strong manner?
>
> Regards,
>
> Bruno
>
hi bruno,
exactly... i agree...being close... touching... doesn't necessarily
translate to connection.
it's the quality of that touch... or even "non touch"..eyes for example
jackie
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 18:53:05 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Pichi and "Los Milongueros", Nirvana
It is something nice and of value to bring together experienced old
milongueros and tango visitors in Buenos Aires. Pichi is a sort of " Tango
ambassador" for those visiting the city.
She provides information, teaching, finds lodging, and connects everyone to
the milongas and the milongueros.
It is also true that due to crowding the only possible dancing form is close
embrace in a very compact fashion in many places all over the city.
This does not mean that this is the only "pure" tango. It is an adaptation
to a circumstance.
Nirvana, trance, zone, magical experience, has already been discussed by us
in minute detail many years ago . I reached the conclusion that it happens
rarely, the circumstances vary enormously, it is independent of the style,
the music, the partner, the circumstances, likes and dislikes. it appears
suddenly when it is not expected, it avoids you if desired. It may be
related to an unconscious high degree of concentration that elicits a state
of self hypnosis.
The intensity and quality of the experience may vary enormously from person
to person.
Some people may call a magical experience something that is a regular tango
experience for another.
I still remember the few ones I ever had for once they occur you never
forget them, the mere memory fills you with emotion.
Best tangos to all,
