3256 No photography in milongas
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:26:21 -0800
From: Tanguera Alegra <tanguers_alegra@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: No photography in milongas
I'm responding to the comments by Mark, below.
Maybe flash photography is rude, disruptive & misses the point of tango...
But aren't you being a bit precious about a social dance in a semi-private setting?
It's my understanding that the reason many milongueros in BsAs were so sensitive about photography in milongas was because they were married & were there without their spouses' knowledge. I'd imagine the political repression of former years is still in the minds of older milongueros, too.
Mark, you may not be dancing for anybody else's edification, but you are placing yourself in a semi-public situation and you have to accept what that means. People dance tango and go to milongas for all sorts of reasons, some of which you have expressed. If your privacy is paramount, by all means organize a private milonga or 'get a room'.
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:28:03 +0100
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
On 23 Feb 2005 at 7:26, Tanguera Alegra wrote:
> Maybe flash photography is rude, disruptive & misses the point of
> tango... But aren't you being a bit precious about a social dance in a
> semi-private setting? It's my understanding that the reason many
> milongueros in BsAs were so sensitive about photography in milongas
> was because they were married & were there without their spouses'
> knowledge.
I mentioned 'la trampa' in my original posting!
> People dance tango and go to milongas for all sorts of reasons, some
> of which you have expressed. If your privacy is paramount, by all
> means organize a private milonga or 'get a room'.
If you go to Bs.As. to tango respect the Bs.As. rules. Point!!!
Maybe in the states your comment could be accepted, but in Bs.As.
*you* are a guest! If you'd propose to an argentian who's not willing
to be on your photo that for the sake of his/her privacy he/she
should organize a private milonga ... don't be astonished if you'd be
called a "gringo" very soon! :-(
There's also another quite important reason why some local argentian
dancers do not want to be on photographs. Last year, one night at 'La
Trastienda' at a night full of tourists I was taking pictures of a
friend of mine (german, living in Bs.As.) who was dancing with german
man (visiting). Suddenly a (young) argentian dancer got very upset:
*he* did not wanted to be on the picture (I did *not* take a picture
off him.) What was the problem? The reason he did not wanted to be
photographed was not that he was in the milonga on a "trampa", BUT
that he was dancing with danceresses he'd normally never would dance
with (far below his level) ... ... ... he was a payed so called "Taxi-
Dancer". That night the milonga was crowded by a group of tourists
(the reason we were there was that Gustavo & Giselle were anounced
for performing there that night ... but that schedule had been
changed). This guy did not want other (locals) to know that he's
acting the 'Taxi Dancer Clown'!
This teaches you some other thing (esp. the women): Do *not* buy
yourself a taxi dancer! Every other person in the milonga will know
that this person is only dancing with you because ... and of course
no other person will ask you to dance! But this is another story!
So: respect the rights/feelings of milonga visitors ... and do not to
easily take and publish photos at/of Bs.As. milongas!
And definitely: Do *not* use a flash!!!
Happy dancing!
Christian
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:15:09 -0800
From: Mark Wladika <markw@ASTROLOGY.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
There exists in the US a dominant popular culture that glorifies the
external image. A culture that trades all that is subtle and beautiful and
hard to understand for easy glamour and superficial image. A place where
Britney Spears and Hummers are accorded cult status.
This has happened to social dance as well. Witness the ridiculous gymnastics
and even more ridiculous costumes of ballroom dance competitions, a set of
affectations that have completely infected how those social dances are
taught.
Most Americans would protest that they are not willing participants in this
march towards mediocrity, but in fact they are complicit: every time you
record rather than participate, every time you stand outside viewing the
world from a little TV screen you are complicit in eviscerating the soul of
culture. This is what you are doing by taking picture of dancers. Put the
camera down and watch the dance, do the dance, learn the dance. You cannot
adequately record it anyway. Tango dance shots almost always look silly
unless done by a professional photographer. Certainly take picture of your
friends the the table, to me thatıs the best use of amateur photography.
Iım not being precious about this, I am raging, fighting to keep the hounds
of American popular culture out of Tango.
On 2/24/05 12:00 AM, "TANGO-L automatic digest system"
<LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:26:21 -0800
> From: Tanguera Alegra <tanguers_alegra@YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: No photography in milongas
>
> I'm responding to the comments by Mark, below.
>
> Maybe flash photography is rude, disruptive & misses the point of tango...
> But aren't you being a bit precious about a social dance in a semi-private
> setting?
> It's my understanding that the reason many milongueros in BsAs were so
> sensitive about photography in milongas was because they were married & were
> there without their spouses' knowledge. I'd imagine the political repression
> of former years is still in the minds of older milongueros, too.
> Mark, you may not be dancing for anybody else's edification, but you are
> placing yourself in a semi-public situation and you have to accept what that
> means. People dance tango and go to milongas for all sorts of reasons, some of
> which you have expressed. If your privacy is paramount, by all means organize
> a private milonga or 'get a room'.
>
> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:50:27 -0800
> From: Mark Wladika <markw@ASTROLOGY.COM>
> Subject: Re: safety tips - No Photographs
>
> Christian makes a very good point that I think should be observed
> everywhere. Photography, especially flash photography in a dark
> milonga is
> terribly rude, disruptive and completely misses the point of Tango.
> Here i> n
> San Francisco we regularly get various people shooting stills and video
> at
> the milogas. They range from excited tourists to amateur videographers
> working on a project.
>
> I am not dancing for their edification. How my dancing looks is of no
> matter to anyone, all that matters is how my dancing feels to my
> partner.
> It is this externalization that is one of the great problems in most
> people=B9s dancing, one of the great problems in most people=B9s
> living.
> Videoing a milonga is just one step on the slippery, tragic slope to
> dance
> competitions and ridiculous stage costumes.
>
> Please, just ask for permission and do the shooting outside the normal
> body
> of the milonga.
>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:03:09 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
Dear Mark, Are you the tango police? Tango IS a part
of popular American culture, South American. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <markw@ASTROLOGY.COM>
wrote:
> There exists in the US a dominant popular culture
that glorifies the
> external image. A culture that trades all that is
subtle and beautiful and
> hard to understand for easy glamour and superficial
image. A place where
> Britney Spears and Hummers are accorded cult status.
>
> This has happened to social dance as well. Witness
the ridiculous gymnastic
> s
> and even more ridiculous costumes of ballroom dance
competitions, a set of
> affectations that have completely infected how those
social dances are
> taught.
>
> Most Americans would protest that they are not
willing participants in this
> march towards mediocrity, but in fact they are
complicit: every time you
> record rather than participate, every time you stand
outside viewing the
> world from a little TV screen you are complicit in
eviscerating the soul of
> culture. This is what you are doing by taking
picture of dancers. Put th
> e
> camera down and watch the dance, do the dance, learn
the dance. You cannot
> adequately record it anyway. Tango dance shots
almost always look silly
> unless done by a professional photographer.
Certainly take picture of you
> r
> friends the the table, to me that9s the best use of
amateur photography.
>
> I9m not being precious about this, I am raging,
fighting to keep the hounds
> of American popular culture out of Tango.
>
>
> On 2/24/05 12:00 AM, "TANGO-L automatic digest
system"
> <LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:26:21 -0800
> > From: Tanguera Alegra
<tanguers_alegra@YAHOO.COM>
> > Subject: No photography in milongas
> >
> > I'm responding to the comments by Mark, below.
> >
> > Maybe flash photography is rude, disruptive &
misses the point of tango..
> .
> > But aren't you being a bit precious about a social
dance in a semi-privat
> e
> > setting?
> > It's my understanding that the reason many
milongueros in BsAs were so
> > sensitive about photography in milongas was
because they were married & w
> ere
> > there without their spouses' knowledge. I'd
imagine the political repress
> ion
> > of former years is still in the minds of older
milongueros, too.
> > Mark, you may not be dancing for anybody else's
edification, but you are
> > placing yourself in a semi-public situation and
you have to accept what t
> hat
> > means. People dance tango and go to milongas for
all sorts of reasons, so
> me of
> > which you have expressed. If your privacy is
paramount, by all means orga
> nize
> > a private milonga or 'get a room'.
> >
> > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:50:27 -0800
> > From: Mark Wladika <markw@ASTROLOGY.COM>
> > Subject: Re: safety tips - No Photographs
> >
> > Christian makes a very good point that I think
should be observed
> > everywhere. Photography, especially flash
photography in a dark
> > milonga is
> > terribly rude, disruptive and completely misses
the point of Tango.
> > Here i> > n
> > San Francisco we regularly get various people
shooting stills and video
> > at
> > the milogas. They range from excited tourists to
amateur videographers
> > working on a project.
> >
> > I am not dancing for their edification. How my
dancing looks is of no
> > matter to anyone, all that matters is how my
dancing feels to my
> > partner.
> > It is this externalization that is one of the
great problems in most
> > peopleıs dancing, one of the great problems in
most peopleıs
> > living.
> > Videoing a milonga is just one step on the
slippery, tragic slope to
> > dance
> > competitions and ridiculous stage costumes.
> >
> > Please, just ask for permission and do the
shooting outside the normal
> > body
> > of the milonga.
> >
>
>
>
should be sent to
send the
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:04:16 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
Dear Mark, Are you the tango police? Tango IS a part
of popular American culture, South American. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <markw@ASTROLOGY.COM>
wrote:
> There exists in the US a dominant popular culture
that glorifies the
> external image. A culture that trades all that is
subtle and beautiful and
> hard to understand for easy glamour and superficial
image. A place where
> Britney Spears and Hummers are accorded cult status.
>
> This has happened to social dance as well. Witness
the ridiculous gymnastic
> s
> and even more ridiculous costumes of ballroom dance
competitions, a set of
> affectations that have completely infected how those
social dances are
> taught.
>
> Most Americans would protest that they are not
willing participants in this
> march towards mediocrity, but in fact they are
complicit: every time you
> record rather than participate, every time you stand
outside viewing the
> world from a little TV screen you are complicit in
eviscerating the soul of
> culture. This is what you are doing by taking
picture of dancers. Put th
> e
> camera down and watch the dance, do the dance, learn
the dance. You cannot
> adequately record it anyway. Tango dance shots
almost always look silly
> unless done by a professional photographer.
Certainly take picture of you
> r
> friends the the table, to me that9s the best use of
amateur photography.
>
> I9m not being precious about this, I am raging,
fighting to keep the hounds
> of American popular culture out of Tango.
>
>
> On 2/24/05 12:00 AM, "TANGO-L automatic digest
system"
> <LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:26:21 -0800
> > From: Tanguera Alegra
<tanguers_alegra@YAHOO.COM>
> > Subject: No photography in milongas
> >
> > I'm responding to the comments by Mark, below.
> >
> > Maybe flash photography is rude, disruptive &
misses the point of tango..
> .
> > But aren't you being a bit precious about a social
dance in a semi-privat
> e
> > setting?
> > It's my understanding that the reason many
milongueros in BsAs were so
> > sensitive about photography in milongas was
because they were married & w
> ere
> > there without their spouses' knowledge. I'd
imagine the political repress
> ion
> > of former years is still in the minds of older
milongueros, too.
> > Mark, you may not be dancing for anybody else's
edification, but you are
> > placing yourself in a semi-public situation and
you have to accept what t
> hat
> > means. People dance tango and go to milongas for
all sorts of reasons, so
> me of
> > which you have expressed. If your privacy is
paramount, by all means orga
> nize
> > a private milonga or 'get a room'.
> >
> > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:50:27 -0800
> > From: Mark Wladika <markw@ASTROLOGY.COM>
> > Subject: Re: safety tips - No Photographs
> >
> > Christian makes a very good point that I think
should be observed
> > everywhere. Photography, especially flash
photography in a dark
> > milonga is
> > terribly rude, disruptive and completely misses
the point of Tango.
> > Here i> > n
> > San Francisco we regularly get various people
shooting stills and video
> > at
> > the milogas. They range from excited tourists to
amateur videographers
> > working on a project.
> >
> > I am not dancing for their edification. How my
dancing looks is of no
> > matter to anyone, all that matters is how my
dancing feels to my
> > partner.
> > It is this externalization that is one of the
great problems in most
> > peopleıs dancing, one of the great problems in
most peopleıs
> > living.
> > Videoing a milonga is just one step on the
slippery, tragic slope to
> > dance
> > competitions and ridiculous stage costumes.
> >
> > Please, just ask for permission and do the
shooting outside the normal
> > body
> > of the milonga.
> >
>
>
>
should be sent to
send the
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:36:21 -0600
From: Mark Johnson <mark.johnson@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
A few questions, a few statements and a suggestion pertaining to this topic
and others I've read recently.
Question: What is it with this "American's do this..." American's do
that..."?
Question: Are there other camera toting nationalities in B.A.? Are
Americans the only international visitors that take a camera to the milongas
and snap off a shot?
Question: Have you looked at some of the costumes dancers wear while
dancing the dances of South America, Germany, Sweden, Ireland?
Statement: Some people like velvet Elvis hanging on their wall...some
people like to take bad shots of dancing. I don't judge peoples taste in
Art, I just ask them what moves them about it. I'd rather understand
someone than judge them.
Suggestion: If you don't like camera's Petition the world to stop trade
with the Asia; that's where 80% of the worlds camera's come from.
Suggestion: If you like camera's I hear the one's they make in Asia are
pretty good.
I don't believe there is a place for unpopular behavior in dancing. When
you bump someone, apologize. If you are going to take a picture ask first,
think about others comfort, and act in regards to the best intention you
posses. If you offend, make amends if possible. Dance for the sake of
dancing, your partner, the music, whatever you need to connect with that
desire within you to express yourself.
The more I think about some of these posts I've read lately the more I'm
reminded of the proverbial Ostrich with it's head in the sand. I wonder
what the dancers of B.A. thought when their dance was taken to Europe? I
wonder what they thought when they saw it danced on the big screen? I
wonder how they felt when their dance was changed by time, circumstance,
money and power; drifting from the docks to the mansions? There are so many
facets, interpretations and styles to this dance; who is anyone to say what
is the correct way and the incorrect way of doing anything.
Some say that which cannot be changed must be endured. Some also say that
change is good.
Look at the progress of this dance...look what it has endured. Try looking
beyond the purity that you believe it posses, the definition of it's
meaning, look to where it is going....and enjoy the ride.
On 2/24/05 1:15 PM, "Mark Wladika" <markw@ASTROLOGY.COM> wrote:
> There exists in the US a dominant popular culture that glorifies the
> external image. A culture that trades all that is subtle and beautiful and
> hard to understand for easy glamour and superficial image. A place where
> Britney Spears and Hummers are accorded cult status.
>
> This has happened to social dance as well. Witness the ridiculous gymnastics
> and even more ridiculous costumes of ballroom dance competitions, a set of
> affectations that have completely infected how those social dances are
> taught.
>
> Most Americans would protest that they are not willing participants in this
> march towards mediocrity, but in fact they are complicit: every time you
> record rather than participate, every time you stand outside viewing the
> world from a little TV screen you are complicit in eviscerating the soul of
> culture. This is what you are doing by taking picture of dancers. Put the
> camera down and watch the dance, do the dance, learn the dance. You cannot
> adequately record it anyway. Tango dance shots almost always look silly
> unless done by a professional photographer. Certainly take picture of your
> friends the the table, to me thatıs the best use of amateur photography.
>
> Iım not being precious about this, I am raging, fighting to keep the hounds
> of American popular culture out of Tango.
>
>
> On 2/24/05 12:00 AM, "TANGO-L automatic digest system"
> <LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:
>
>> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:26:21 -0800
>> From: Tanguera Alegra <tanguers_alegra@YAHOO.COM>
>> Subject: No photography in milongas
>>
>> I'm responding to the comments by Mark, below.
>>
>> Maybe flash photography is rude, disruptive & misses the point of tango...
>> But aren't you being a bit precious about a social dance in a semi-private
>> setting?
>> It's my understanding that the reason many milongueros in BsAs were so
>> sensitive about photography in milongas was because they were married & were
>> there without their spouses' knowledge. I'd imagine the political repression
>> of former years is still in the minds of older milongueros, too.
>> Mark, you may not be dancing for anybody else's edification, but you are
>> placing yourself in a semi-public situation and you have to accept what that
>> means. People dance tango and go to milongas for all sorts of reasons, some
>> of
>> which you have expressed. If your privacy is paramount, by all means organize
>> a private milonga or 'get a room'.
>>
>> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:50:27 -0800
>> From: Mark Wladika <markw@ASTROLOGY.COM>
>> Subject: Re: safety tips - No Photographs
>>
>> Christian makes a very good point that I think should be observed
>> everywhere. Photography, especially flash photography in a dark
>> milonga is
>> terribly rude, disruptive and completely misses the point of Tango.
>> Here i>> n
>> San Francisco we regularly get various people shooting stills and video
>> at
>> the milogas. They range from excited tourists to amateur videographers
>> working on a project.
>>
>> I am not dancing for their edification. How my dancing looks is of no
>> matter to anyone, all that matters is how my dancing feels to my
>> partner.
>> It is this externalization that is one of the great problems in most
>> people=B9s dancing, one of the great problems in most people=B9s
>> living.
>> Videoing a milonga is just one step on the slippery, tragic slope to
>> dance
>> competitions and ridiculous stage costumes.
>>
>> Please, just ask for permission and do the shooting outside the normal
>> body
>> of the milonga.
>>
>
>
.
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:14:08 +0100
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
Gosh, this slowly but surely gets me angry! :-(
The moment some people here will realize that Bs.As. is part of the
independent of Argentina and not another state of the United States
of (self acclaimed *all*) America ...
... and the moment those people will start to respect the
independency of argentinian culture (as the original subject of the
discussion was "Photography at Milongas in Buenos Aires"!) ...
... that moment those people will be surprised when (proud) argentian
will start to treat them with respect!!! No earlier they deserve
it!!!
Very very strange: those people "buy" the "original" argentinian
teachers for "authentic" style ...
... but do not accept "authenticy" at the *Buenos Aires* (!)
Milongas!!!
Going to other countries first of all asks for respect for the local
people!!! Some knowledge of the local language will help as well ...
to learn about and respect their culture. Otherwise don't be
surprised you'd only treated as a to be melked money cow!
Once again: we were talking about Buenos Aires Milongas, not milongas
in the United States of (north) America, not milongas in Canada, not
in Europe, Asia, Africa or Oceania!!!
Go to Bs.As., respect the argentinians. Go to the USofA, respect
those citizens. Go to Europe, respect the european behaviour, and so
on ... !!!
Christian
On 24 Feb 2005 at 13:03, Derik Rawson wrote:
> Dear Mark, Are you the tango police? Tango IS a part
> of popular American culture, South American. Derik
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:24:49 +0100
From: Lloica Czackis <mezzo@LLOICACZACKIS.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
Thank you
-----Original Message-----
Sent: vendredi 25 février 2005 00:14
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] No photography in milongas
Gosh, this slowly but surely gets me angry! :-(
The moment some people here will realize that Bs.As. is part of the
independent of Argentina and not another state of the United States
of (self acclaimed *all*) America ...
... and the moment those people will start to respect the
independency of argentinian culture (as the original subject of the
discussion was "Photography at Milongas in Buenos Aires"!) ...
... that moment those people will be surprised when (proud) argentian
will start to treat them with respect!!! No earlier they deserve
it!!!
Very very strange: those people "buy" the "original" argentinian
teachers for "authentic" style ...
... but do not accept "authenticy" at the *Buenos Aires* (!)
Milongas!!!
Going to other countries first of all asks for respect for the local
people!!! Some knowledge of the local language will help as well ...
to learn about and respect their culture. Otherwise don't be
surprised you'd only treated as a to be melked money cow!
Once again: we were talking about Buenos Aires Milongas, not milongas
in the United States of (north) America, not milongas in Canada, not
in Europe, Asia, Africa or Oceania!!!
Go to Bs.As., respect the argentinians. Go to the USofA, respect
those citizens. Go to Europe, respect the european behaviour, and so
on ... !!!
Christian
On 24 Feb 2005 at 13:03, Derik Rawson wrote:
> Dear Mark, Are you the tango police? Tango IS a part
> of popular American culture, South American. Derik
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:19:06 -0800
From: Rick <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
I remember a documentary filmmaker/photographer, saying once,
that he brought his cameras to a sacred native-american ceremony
& decided not to take any photos, because he realized filming or
taking photos would change the ceremony.
.
I agree with Mark about his general point about not being a
spectator. I remember when I took started dancing swing in
1989 & realized I had been watching people doing things all
my life up till that moment. Things have taking a permanent,
satisfying turn every since...
PS: Global warming has reached Portland, OR. Its 62' F/
17.78 C right now, 4:45 PM Our snowpack in the
Cascade Mountains is a joke too...
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:04:36 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
Dear Christian, America is not the US. Argentina and
many other countries are America. Argentina is just as
American. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <mezzo@LLOICACZACKIS.COM>
wrote:
> Thank you
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine
Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of
Christian L|then
> Sent: vendredi 25 fivrier 2005 00:14
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] No photography in milongas
>
> Gosh, this slowly but surely gets me angry! :-(
>
> The moment some people here will realize that Bs.As.
is part of the
> independent of Argentina and not another state of
the United States
> of (self acclaimed *all*) America ...
> ... and the moment those people will start to
respect the
> independency of argentinian culture (as the original
subject of the
> discussion was "Photography at Milongas in Buenos
Aires"!) ...
> ... that moment those people will be surprised when
(proud) argentian
> will start to treat them with respect!!! No earlier
they deserve
> it!!!
>
> Very very strange: those people "buy" the "original"
argentinian
> teachers for "authentic" style ...
> ... but do not accept "authenticy" at the *Buenos
Aires* (!)
> Milongas!!!
>
> Going to other countries first of all asks for
respect for the local
> people!!! Some knowledge of the local language will
help as well ...
> to learn about and respect their culture. Otherwise
don't be
> surprised you'd only treated as a to be melked money
cow!
>
> Once again: we were talking about Buenos Aires
Milongas, not milongas
> in the United States of (north) America, not
milongas in Canada, not
> in Europe, Asia, Africa or Oceania!!!
>
> Go to Bs.As., respect the argentinians. Go to the
USofA, respect
> those citizens. Go to Europe, respect the european
behaviour, and so
> on ... !!!
>
> Christian
>
>
>
>
>
> On 24 Feb 2005 at 13:03, Derik Rawson wrote:
>
> > Dear Mark, Are you the tango police? Tango IS a
part
> > of popular American culture, South American. Derik
>
>
> christian@eTanguero.net
> https://www.eTanguero.net/
>
>
should be sent to
send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
should be sent to
send the
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:28:29 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
I think Mark is asking for what he's not going to get.
At the same time I agree that doing anything that
noticeably alters the entertainment that people expect
and have paid for, even in a quasi-public space like a
milonga, is out of line, no matter where you are in
the world. That includes (& as the lawyers say: but
is not limited to):
- taking photographs in a way that bothers the dancers
(wandering onto the floor so you become a hazard to
navigation, using a flash, making a fuss about setting
up or using your equipment, etc. Details vary from
place to place.);
- taking a long break in the milonga for
announcements, party games, performances, etc. (As we
discussed a couple of weeks ago);
- teaching on the floor in a way that makes you
noticeable to the other couples (I leave aside the
more specific question of rudeness to your partner);
- speaking at a volume that makes you audible - not to
mention impossible to ignore - to people who are
dancing. (I am currently peeved about this one
because my perfect dance with my perfectly-tuned
partner last week was suddenly destroyed by a pair of
loudmouths who felt that their miscellaneous
conversation should be heard by all.)
For goodness sakes - common sense and common courtesy!
Show some respect!
Marisa
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:45:20 -0800
From: Jennifer Bratt <jennifer@CLOSE-EMBRACE.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
It is said that the face, or more exactly, the eyes are the windows of the
soul. It is also true that in certain (so-called) "primitive"
cultures it is commonly believed that when you are photographed, the
photographer steals your soul.
In our global "culture of tango" many believe that we lay our souls bare
when we dance and what we usually keep very deep inside comes very close to
the surface. I would even go so far as to say that the soul becomes
visible, in the body and especially in the face. When dancing tango, the
mask that most people wear, that self-protective layer against the world,
disappears. Amazingly, gloriously, the true inner self momentarily is
revealed. Perhaps this is why some are against photography in the milongas
because it is especially easy for the soul to be stolen.
For me, this is exactly why I am attracted to photographing dancers - I am
an avid collector of souls and frozen, immortal moments. The faces of
dancers lost in the music and the embrace fascinate me and compel me. I am
an amateur, and yes I've taken lots of bad or bland photos - the good ones
are rare. I would not photograph in milongas where it seemed unwelcome (i.e.
most in BsAs) and I try to be unobtrusive. I don't use a flash whenever
possible. (Although I have to admit that there is also something
interesting about capturing the face of someone who is startled out of their
trance. There is a photographer named Anne Durez who photographs her
friends just after waking them up, to catch them looking slightly dazed and
defenseless, like small children.)
I see it as a cross between photo-documentary and 'street photography',
where photographers snap candid photos of people in the street or other
public places. Garry Winogrand, one of the most well-known street
photographers, made a famous book called "Women are Beautiful". He walked up
to women on the street and took their photographs. He said: 'Whenever I've
seen an attractive woman I've done my best to photograph her. I don't know
if all the women in the photographs are beautiful, but I do know that the
women are beautiful in the photographs.' Perhaps I will rename the candids
page on my web-site "Tango Dancers are Beautiful".
To me, a milonga is a party - not a funeral - and thus a camera is not out
of place. I have found that most people either don't realize they are being
photographed or they don't pay attention to being photographed; those that
do usually smile at me or laugh. I've never had anyone complain and I've
taken thousands of photographs at milongas in many cities all over the
united states, as well as internationally. I also find that afterwards
people are extremely amused to see images of themselves or their friends
dancing. In my visits to other places, I have often not been the only
photographer in the joint. This includes international places, so I can only
assume that that the desire to photograph something so beautiful, so
intriguing, so mysterious and so human as Argentine Tango is not solely an
American flaw.
As for watching, rather than 'participating', I would assert that
photographing is participating as well. Instead of expressing though dance,
I try express through light. I attempt to let others see through my eyes; I
express how I feel about tango through my photographs of others dancing. If
you are interested, here are a few of my favorite recent images:
https://www.close-embrace.com/tangoisbeautiful/index.htm
abrazos,
Jennifer
(Former Art Historian / Part-Time Photographer / Full-Time Tango Enthusiast)
* * * * * * * * *
Jennifer Bratt
Maleva & Co.
www.close-embrace.com
jennifer@close-embrace.com
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:48:02 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
Dear Jennifer,
let me say first of all that I do like your photographs of people dancing. I
have seen your website and they are beautiful. But, reading your posting, I
can't help inserting the following comments, thoughts that came to mind,
notwithstanding:
It is also true that in certain (so-called) "primitive"
> cultures it is commonly believed that when you are photographed, the
> photographer steals your soul. (...)
Perhaps this is why some are against photography in the milongas
> because it is especially easy for the soul to be stolen.
You are not trying to say that Argentina is one of the primitive cultures?
>
> For me, this is exactly why I am attracted to photographing dancers - I am
> an avid collector of souls and frozen, immortal moments. The faces of
> dancers lost in the music and the embrace fascinate me and compel me.
(...) (Although I have to admit that there is also something
> interesting about capturing the face of someone who is startled out of
their
> trance. There is a photographer named Anne Durez who photographs her
> friends just after waking them up, to catch them looking slightly dazed
and
> defenseless, like small children.)
For my sensitivity, this borders on psychological pornography. Sorry,
Jennifer,to use such a harsh term, but people dropping their guard and
exposing the sensitive vulnerable part of their inner selves does not call
for someone greedily taking pictures to perpetuate their expression and
publish it elsewhere, especially uninvited. And what Ms. Durez is doing,
constitutes major harassment. Wonder how many friends she will have left
over time. And you may enjoy capturing the face of someone startled out of
their trance, but they certainly don't, I can assure you, and I am amazed
that this does not stop you.
: 'Whenever I've
> seen an attractive woman I've done my best to photograph her. I don't know
> if all the women in the photographs are beautiful, but I do know that the
> women are beautiful in the photographs.'
Yeah, right. And whenever some travel-inexperienced Japanese salarymen see a
"gaijin"- woman (white, and perceived as beautiful and exotic) in Tokyo,
they pull out their mobile phone cameras (with a photo email function) and
take a picture of her while she is unsuspectingly eating her pizza. This, or
being groped surreptitiously on the subway, I don't know which is more
obnoxious and intrusive.
I have found that most people either don't realize they are being
> photographed or they don't pay attention to being photographed; those that
> do usually smile at me or laugh.
Unless, as may often be the case, you happen to photograph an Argentine who
told his wife he is going to the hardware store to chat with the owner.
> As for watching, rather than 'participating', I would assert that
> photographing is participating as well.
No, actually, photographing puts you into the observer's position. It is
very different to see something through bare eyes, get pulled into it, and
everybody can see YOUR expression full of longing and wonder. Or, to see
things the way a hunter goes through the forest- looking for prey. Imagining
what images would look like inside a frame, and how other people would react
to them, and praise you for your photographical talent. And then hold the
camera in front of your face, hiding your eyes behind it and shoot.
I know from experience, I have shot hundreds of photos during travel, and
sometimes missed a lot of feeling, smelling and hearing the city life,
because I spent so much time on the outlook behind my lens.
Now, I am not exactly saying, you should stop, Jeniifer, but it might help
to take into consideration the feelings of your photo objects that you
cheerfully startle out of their trance.
Astrid
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:16:41 -0800
From: Sean Dockery <sean13@MYREALBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
Seems a little harsh Astrid.
I've seen Jennifer taking pictures at festivals, and even had my picture taken by her without having my tango trance inturrupted. Atleast a dozen o=
f my friends have have also been photographed. I haven't found it intrusive or annoying, and I've never heard a single complaint from anybody els=
e. I also find it is wonderful to return home from a weekend of 30+ hours of tango dancing, and be able to go online and see pictures of my frien=
ds. To me it seems a sacrafice to sit out and take pictures, cause I'd rather be dancing. But I always wish I could have taken some. I think Je=
nnifer does a service to the tango world!
sean
-----Original Message-----
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:48:02 +0900
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] No photography in milongas
Dear Jennifer,
let me say first of all that I do like your photographs of people dancing. I
have seen your website and they are beautiful. But, reading your posting, I
can't help inserting the following comments, thoughts that came to mind,
notwithstanding:
It is also true that in certain (so-called) "primitive"
> cultures it is commonly believed that when you are photographed, the
> photographer steals your soul. (...)
Perhaps this is why some are against photography in the milongas
> because it is especially easy for the soul to be stolen.
You are not trying to say that Argentina is one of the primitive cultures?
>
> For me, this is exactly why I am attracted to photographing dancers - I am
> an avid collector of souls and frozen, immortal moments. The faces of
> dancers lost in the music and the embrace fascinate me and compel me.
(...) (Although I have to admit that there is also something
> interesting about capturing the face of someone who is startled out of
their
> trance. There is a photographer named Anne Durez who photographs her
> friends just after waking them up, to catch them looking slightly dazed
and
> defenseless, like small children.)
For my sensitivity, this borders on psychological pornography. Sorry,
Jennifer,to use such a harsh term, but people dropping their guard and
exposing the sensitive vulnerable part of their inner selves does not call
for someone greedily taking pictures to perpetuate their expression and
publish it elsewhere, especially uninvited. And what Ms. Durez is doing,
constitutes major harassment. Wonder how many friends she will have left
over time. And you may enjoy capturing the face of someone startled out of
their trance, but they certainly don't, I can assure you, and I am amazed
that this does not stop you.
: 'Whenever I've
> seen an attractive woman I've done my best to photograph her. I don't know
> if all the women in the photographs are beautiful, but I do know that the
> women are beautiful in the photographs.'
Yeah, right. And whenever some travel-inexperienced Japanese salarymen see a
"gaijin"- woman (white, and perceived as beautiful and exotic) in Tokyo,
they pull out their mobile phone cameras (with a photo email function) and
take a picture of her while she is unsuspectingly eating her pizza. This, or
being groped surreptitiously on the subway, I don't know which is more
obnoxious and intrusive.
I have found that most people either don't realize they are being
> photographed or they don't pay attention to being photographed; those that
> do usually smile at me or laugh.
Unless, as may often be the case, you happen to photograph an Argentine who
told his wife he is going to the hardware store to chat with the owner.
> As for watching, rather than 'participating', I would assert that
> photographing is participating as well.
No, actually, photographing puts you into the observer's position. It is
very different to see something through bare eyes, get pulled into it, and
everybody can see YOUR expression full of longing and wonder. Or, to see
things the way a hunter goes through the forest- looking for prey. Imagining
what images would look like inside a frame, and how other people would react
to them, and praise you for your photographical talent. And then hold the
camera in front of your face, hiding your eyes behind it and shoot.
I know from experience, I have shot hundreds of photos during travel, and
sometimes missed a lot of feeling, smelling and hearing the city life,
because I spent so much time on the outlook behind my lens.
Now, I am not exactly saying, you should stop, Jeniifer, but it might help
to take into consideration the feelings of your photo objects that you
cheerfully startle out of their trance.
Astrid
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:34:14 -0800
From: Randy Fisher <randyafisher@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: No photography in milongas
First,Thank you, Jennifer.
It interesting how we put up with so many other things that seem bigger
(harsher) in scale than a photo of you while you are doing something you
love (assuming). In a world full of so much hate we need some balance.
People communicating and getting along (for the most part). Images good or
bad quality helps focus our attention on whether it truly capture the
essence of what we call tango.
I have spent a lot of time with older dancers of tango who only have
memories, which is a beautiful thing, but there is something also beautiful
about a tangible document. Documentation whether it be writing, performance,
painting, sculpture or photography. We do a terrible disservice to ourselves
and our art by not documenting it, however menial it may seem. Photography
is an element of history. Some regret not having tangibles of when they were
in their prime because tango was banned or out of vogue for many years.
When I was just starting out as a photographer, my uncle, who was also a
photographer too said, "you should take pictures of your friends they are
really interesting." In retrospect, they were interesting purple mohawks,
piercings, and various other body modifications. Being young and naive, I
thought there will be time I was around these folks all the time and it
didn't seem important to document. I was too busy with other types of
photography to document myself and my surroundings. In retrospect, I would
have done it different because there is nothing pertaining to that area of
my life. Photos are anthropological and say a lot of what was around me or
what made me who I am today.
It is sad when moments in history aren't documented. Case and point, related
to tango, the Afro parties were off limits to many of the Argentines. It is
sad because what happen there is purely speculation now because no one was
really documenting. The Afro-Argentines lost a voice (I don't think this has
anything to do with cameras). So now, I have been spending tons of time
trying find people who had parents around during that time or grandparents.
It poses a problem because there aren't that many Afro Argentines and many
didn't record their history orally or written so it is all lost. Sometimes a
random photo or unrelated article in a newspaper helps give context to a
time that was otherwise undocumented.
I still don't have many photos with tango because I have spent most of my
time in BsAs learning and respecting the culture and traditions. Originally,
I learned it is totally unacceptable to photography in the milongas.
Not all milongas are equal. Some are about community and fun. Some are
serious and more like a club. Then there are others in between. Let's just
talk about BsAs because that seems to be the hot side of the barometer.
Here is a conversation with a older fella from a milonga in BsAs who
introduced himself. I saw him around quite a bit and he asked what I did? I
told him I was a photographer. He said "that it must be great here." "Where
is your camera?" he asked. I said I was on vacation from being a
photographer he said "wow! how do you separate? "Don't you think they are
beautiful, are they not interesting" "The looks on the faces some happy,
some sad, some confused, and very concentrated and some not at all." I
agreed, but I explained I had been taught milongas were off limits to
photos. He said "maybe a flash when the room is really dark is harsh, but
that has nothing to do with tango" "You don't have to flash directly maybe
bounce it but some milongas aren't really really dark." "photos are good
they are about community like some milongas are about community"
Since that conversation, I have paid more attention to cameras and the
relationship with milongas. There are the milongas where the whole family is
present and milongas where it is the opposite and in both some people who
know me as a photographer ask me why I don't photograph milongas. I answer I
am too busy dancing.
Sometimes, I force myself to take pictures. I have had people come to me
later and give me a card in case I got something good to contact them. Some
just introduce themselves. I had people pose mid dance to the beat of the
music for a photo. I haven't had any one tell me not to photography them. I
had one person duck away but I wasn't going to his picture because he
communicated nonverbally to me before he even ducked away. I am sure the
photo is different when you know the person or have seen them around
dancing.
I think some tango dancers like their picture taken. There are some people
who don't like their picture taken. Some go to where the picture is being
taken. Maybe I will start a thread on possible solutions.
As a photographer, you should have the common sense not to get in the way of
dancing and get to know your subject. Sounds like life to me.
Randy Tango Negro de San Francisco
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:55:07 -0800
From: Randy Fisher <randyafisher@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Photography in milongas
I agree Sean it is a public service that Jennifer is doing.
I am playing with options with the flash dilemma. I am not stressed about
the flash and I have seen Jennifer photographing at milongas I haven't been
disturb at all. Sometimes I feel photogenic when I am not I steer clear just
as I would of other couples on the floor. Sometimes I don't want people to
look at me but I think that is too much to ask for. Maybe we can put a
curtain around the dance floor...okay seriously.
Gordon Parks as photojournalist was travelling with street gangs during the
40's. He was assigned to document rise of gang violence, the gangs usually
worked at night so he used an infrared flash which is undetectable by the
human eye. He befriend the gang he was roving with but the other gangs
wouldn't take to kindly to being photographed so discretion was paramount.
Beautiful images undetected by the gangshmn.
How about WeeGee straight on flash? People loved being in the center of his
pictures some times even the dead ones who wanted him to photograph them if
they met their timely or untimely demise. Surely, there are some hams in
tango, the question is do we want to encourage them to strike a pose? They
will probably act out with or without a camera present.
Maybe we can talk about what makes us uncomfortable instead of a blanket
rule of no cameras. We want to learn from each others so we can make this a
win win situation. When you see an outsider or insider doing something you
deem rude, inconsiderate or questionable pause take a deep breath. Then find
a constructive way to educate them to some of the beauty of tango and maybe
not stand on the floor or whatever. If you don't like your picture taken
maybe let them know some people don't like their picture taken so maybe
check with them or they may want a copy
Randy Tango Negro de San Francisco
In the words of the great Homer "this could be a good thing"
