2354 One correct way to dance tango
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 11:17:55 -0700
From: Phil Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: One correct way to dance tango
Some teach that followers should always put their weight on the left foot on
five when doing the cross. Others teach that the follower should not shift
directly to the left foot on five because this gives more options. For
example, it allows the leader to lead a back ocho from position five.
In my experience, it is best to teach beginning followers to put all their
weight on the left foot when going to the cross so they can easily step back
with the right foot into the tan-go-close. Beginning dancers have a lot of
trouble even understanding and being aware of change of weight change.
Telling them not to shift all of their weight directly is too subtle, in my
opinion. I think it is better to save this idea for more advaned followers.
It seems that the idea that there is only one way to dance various steps,
comes from the hard work of Arthur Murray who dropped out of engineering
school to become a dance teacher around 1920. Arthur like to simplify and
stylize dance figures and perfected various teaching tools, including step
diagrams, teaching dance by radio, and even teaching by videos -- long
before television or video tape was invented. You would watch the videos by
turning a crank on a tiny machine that you would get in the mail in
connection with your dance correspondence course. Arthur Murray was a
marketing genius and had a popular dance television show in the 1950s. He
liked to give names to each of the steps that he created or documented. I
find it interesting that one of the tango steps he documented was called the
Argentine walk.
Phil Seyer
https://www.argentine-tango.com
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 19:42:49 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: One correct way to dance tango
Phil Seyer wrote:
> Some teach that followers should always put their weight on the left foot on
> five when doing the cross. Others teach that the follower should not shift
> directly to the left foot on five because this gives more options. For
> example, it allows the leader to lead a back ocho from position five.
>
The answer is simple: the shift of weight is *led* by the leader, or should be.
You can "fail to complete" step 5 of the D8CB, as a leader, and then the follower
is still on the back foot. You can "complete" it (which is helped by a movement
of the body and a good connection), and then the follower is on the front foot.
And before you go on to other steps, you *can* actually make the follower transfer
weight (back) onto the other foot before you start again.
It took me about 5 years to understand that: the cross isn't just something the
followers should "just do" after two back steps: it's LED, and there are tons
of steps you can do where you purposefully do *not* lead the follower to cross.
--
Alexis Cousein Senior Systems Engineer
alexis@sgi.com SGI Brussels
If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 00:56:19 -0700
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Re: One correct way to dance tango
Alexis,
You say if the cross is led, then follower puts her weight on the front
foot. That's exactly what one teacher is saying not to. He says, that even
if the cross is led, the follower should not shift all her weight directly
onto the front foot.
Another famous teachers explicitly teaches that step five of the basic need
not be led and that merely staying outside partner right during steps three
and four indicates a cross by convention.
My point, is that there is no way of dancing Argentine tango. But there are
guidelines.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] One correct way to dance tango
> Phil Seyer wrote:
>
> > Some teach that followers should always put their weight on the left
foot on
> > five when doing the cross. Others teach that the follower should not
shift
> > directly to the left foot on five because this gives more options. For
> > example, it allows the leader to lead a back ocho from position five.
> >
>
> The answer is simple: the shift of weight is *led* by the leader, or
should be.
>
> You can "fail to complete" step 5 of the D8CB, as a leader, and then the
follower
> is still on the back foot. You can "complete" it (which is helped by a
movement
> of the body and a good connection), and then the follower is on the front
foot.
>
> And before you go on to other steps, you *can* actually make the follower
transfer
> weight (back) onto the other foot before you start again.
>
> It took me about 5 years to understand that: the cross isn't just
something the
> followers should "just do" after two back steps: it's LED, and there are
tons
> of steps you can do where you purposefully do *not* lead the follower to
cross.
>
>
> --
> Alexis Cousein Senior Systems Engineer
> alexis@sgi.com SGI Brussels
> If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:29:43 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: One correct way to dance tango
Philip Seyer wrote:
> Alexis,
>
> You say if the cross is led, then follower puts her weight on the front
> foot. That's exactly what one teacher is saying not to. He says, that even
> if the cross is led, the follower should not shift all her weight directly
> onto the front foot.
It depends on *how* it is lead -- it is up to the leader to decide that,
by the weight *he* puts onto *his* feet and the connection.
If a follower follows (and a leader leads), there's no need to theorise,
just to lead and follow.
>
> Another famous teachers explicitly teaches that step five of the basic need
> not be led and that merely staying outside partner right during steps three
> and four indicates a cross by convention.
Yes. I've seen teachers say that, and I've also witnessed those same teachers
actually lead step five (but to them, it's become so natural they aren't
aware they're leading).
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BASIC! The D8CB is just a convention - it's a
walking sequence designed to be an easy canvas for starting other steps
(hence the inside walks, outside walks, side movements, and cross).
Yes, it is quite a wise convention to insert a cross after two back steps
for the follower (if there's room, obviously, i.e. the leader has stepped
outside and inside[1])- if you never do insert a cross, you're going to be
speeding over the dance floor and going to have to hone your
overtaking skills ;).
But it's a convention -- and as you indicate quite well, there are no
conventions with respect to the flow of movement in Argentine tango
cast so much in stone that an able leader can't ignore it ;;).
[1] It's pretty challenging to make a follower do a mirrored walk
and cross, but it *can* be done ;).
--
Alexis Cousein Senior Systems Engineer
alexis@sgi.com SGI Brussels
If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:39:51 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: One correct way to dance tango
I kind of agree with both these points of view - with the caveat that
teachers must say things which are not quite true, but also sometimes say
things significantly different to what they actually do. These teaching
shortcuts may help, or they may confuse - which I think is the real problem
here.
I think, at a body level: Especially in a close embrace, if a leader takes a
couple of steps on the followers right side, it takes a significant effort
from the leader to _not_ lead a cross - or a turn of some kind. Not because
the follower is on autopilot 'its #5 I must cross", but because the relative
body positions lead her there. Try it, and see if you find the same thing:
lead a few steps, in a straight line, staying "outside partner right". I
feel a significant tension required to lead her to also simply step rather
than cross. This tension is relieved by the cross.
So in a sense, it is 'natural' to lead a cross there - it is the easiest
thing to lead. But I agree it should not be automatic - if it is not lead,
it should not happen.
And as leaders get more finesse, and followers get more sensitive, it is
quite possible to lead any combination of walking inside, cross, and change
of weight, at any step.
my 2c
it seems that around 06/04/04 5:56 PM, Philip Seyer at
philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM wrote (among other things):
> Alexis,
>
> You say if the cross is led, then follower puts her weight on the front
> foot. That's exactly what one teacher is saying not to. He says, that even
> if the cross is led, the follower should not shift all her weight directly
> onto the front foot.
>
> Another famous teachers explicitly teaches that step five of the basic need
> not be led and that merely staying outside partner right during steps three
> and four indicates a cross by convention.
>
> My point, is that there is no way of dancing Argentine tango. But there are
> guidelines.
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 06:36:01 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: One correct way to dance tango
On the cross. If you don't give the lady enough room to cross, she will not
cross. If, during your walk, she has no room to cross, she won't. If, after
some steps in which you leave her with no room, and then you offer her that room,
she will cross - it seems the most natural thing to do.
There are also some other subleties. Two which come to mind:
1. Body angle relative to the lady. During the outside walk, many couples
naturally angle their bodies towards each other. It is not a strong angle (CBMP)
as in ballroom dancing, but it is there. If there is no such angle, then the
couple are not dancing together, but going straight down the room looking in
opposite directions ! Then, if the leader merely straightens his shoulders (by
drawing his left shoulder back to be square to the line of dance), the lady
will also square up (to remain directly in front of him) and will cross. Again,
it appears to be automatic.
2. Rise and fall. In Tango, we normally dance as flat as possible - gliding
over the floor rather than having a rise and fall motion. However, it seems to
me that when it comes to leading the cross, the man actually raises his frame
(not his arms alone) very slightly (which in effect signals that the walk has
ended temporarily and prevents the lady from going straight back with her left
foot), and then lowers it (and her) again, which is what leads her to cross
and transfer her weight to her left foot.
It's subtle, but fascinating. Of course, once you have got it, you never
analyse it while your are dancing - you just do it. Until you have got it,
though, analysis is useful.
Laurie
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:55:19 -0700
From: Ernest Williams <alohatango2002@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: One correct way to dance tango
Hello
This is my second post ever and second post in a day. I happen to have lots of idle time on my hands right now, so I have time to write. Now I know how much time others must have that write long dissertations frequently on this list.
I typically practice and teach a different method of leading the cross that doesn't involve a rise and fall. I find the rise and fall is unnecessary. The goal is to switch the weight of the follower from her right foot (back) to her left foot (front). It doesn't matter that the feet are in different positions. It's just like when the couple is standing in front of each other establishing the weight like in the beginning of the dance. There is no rise and fall to get the follower to transfer the weight from one foot to the other. There is just a slight shift side to side. If a majority of the weight is on one foot then the free foot takes the first step in whichever direction. Try this with the feet crossed. It still works.
If the leader centers the body weight of the follower over the right (back) foot when entering the cross, the left foot will not touch the ground (or at most slightly brush the ground), therefore not allowing the completion of the cross. If he brings her to shift the weight to the left (front) foot by bringiing her to the side slightly then her weight will shift thus completing the cross. This works assuming the the length of the follower's legs are similar in length and remain constant and the floor is level.
This allows for a smooth seemless dance and lends itself well to dancing very slowly in the close embrace.
Ernest
LGMoseley@AOL.COM wrote:
On the cross. If you don't give the lady enough room to cross, she will not
cross. If, during your walk, she has no room to cross, she won't. If, after
some steps in which you leave her with no room, and then you offer her that room,
she will cross - it seems the most natural thing to do.
There are also some other subleties. Two which come to mind:
1. Body angle relative to the lady. During the outside walk, many couples
naturally angle their bodies towards each other. It is not a strong angle (CBMP)
as in ballroom dancing, but it is there. If there is no such angle, then the
couple are not dancing together, but going straight down the room looking in
opposite directions ! Then, if the leader merely straightens his shoulders (by
drawing his left shoulder back to be square to the line of dance), the lady
will also square up (to remain directly in front of him) and will cross. Again,
it appears to be automatic.
2. Rise and fall. In Tango, we normally dance as flat as possible - gliding
over the floor rather than having a rise and fall motion. However, it seems to
me that when it comes to leading the cross, the man actually raises his frame
(not his arms alone) very slightly (which in effect signals that the walk has
ended temporarily and prevents the lady from going straight back with her left
foot), and then lowers it (and her) again, which is what leads her to cross
and transfer her weight to her left foot.
It's subtle, but fascinating. Of course, once you have got it, you never
analyse it while your are dancing - you just do it. Until you have got it,
though, analysis is useful.
Laurie
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 21:51:21 -0400
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: One correct way to dance tango
Your are correct Laurie. However, I've found that beginners tend to rise
when they go into the cross. I suspect that is because the woman doesn't
have her balance because one foot is directly in front of the other (like
a high wire walker). They straighten the left (front) foot which only
elevates their center of gravity, making it even more difficult to
balance. Then to make matters worse, to regain their balance, they shift
their weight to their right (trailing) foot. If the man can't feel that
the woman has changed feet, there's going to be problems when he tries to
lead the woman to move her right foot because she is already standing on
it.
Michael
Washington, DC
LGMoseley@AOL.COM wrote:
> On the cross. If you don't give the lady enough room to cross, she >
will not> cross. If, during your walk, she has no room to cross, she
won't.
>
> There are also some other subtleties. Two which come to mind:
>
> 2. Rise and fall. In Tango, we normally dance as flat as possible - >
gliding
> over the floor rather than having a rise and fall motion. However, > it
seems to> me that when it comes to leading the cross, the man actually
raises > his frame> (not his arms alone) very slightly (which in effect
signals that the > walk has> ended temporarily and prevents the lady from
going straight back > with her left
> foot), and then lowers it (and her) again, which is what leads her > to
cross> and transfer her weight to her left foot.
>
>
> Laurie
>
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:08:27 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRY.COM.AU>
Subject: Subject: Re: One correct way to dance tango
Phil,
Some of your moderate views I agree with, but here I feel you are passing
off the difference between good and bad technique as different ways to
dance. It's not so. You must have experienced simply bad dancing in all
kinds dance. There are certainly different genres of the Tango, but I have
found that good technique is common to all genres, although it is easier to
fudge by with bad technique in some more than others. By the way, I agree
with the teacher who says the lady should go fully to her balance before
shifting weight.
Best,
John
The Tango Lesson
Dedicated to passing on the beauty of Argentine Tango
Brisbane - 07 3848 6121 cheryl@lowry.com.au
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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 03:50:06 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: One correct way to dance tango
In a message dated 08/04/2004 02:57:15 GMT Daylight Time,
tangomaniac@juno.com writes:
> Your are correct Laurie. However, I've found that beginners tend to rise
> when they go into the cross. I suspect that is because the woman doesn't
> have her balance because one foot is directly in front of the other (like
> a high wire walker). They straighten the left (front) foot which only
> elevates their center of gravity, making it even more difficult to
> balance. Then to make matters worse, to regain their balance, they shift
> their weight to their right (trailing) foot. If the man can't feel that
> the woman has changed feet, there's going to be problems when he tries to
> lead the woman to move her right foot because she is already standing on
> it.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
>
Thanks, Michael. It is strange how the more we discuss issues, the further
back we go and the nearer we get to basics. I'm not absolutely sure, but I think
that one of the problems comes from something as simple as the mechanics of
the walk.
When the man is walking forwards, the timing appears to be as follows:
1. The ball of the front foot is pushed forward along the floor, but a
fraction above it
2. There is a softening of the rear knee and a then a slight push from it,
causing the front foot to glide an inch or two forward, as the rear knee push
causes the upper body weight to move forward. That is rather like a military
slow march, although very understated.
4. Then the weight is transferred from the rear largely, but not entirely, to
the front foot.
5. Finally the weight is transferred fully to the front foot, and the rear
foot catches up and brushes, without weight.
After all this, the man then transfers his weight to his right foot - unless
he going to do an Amague, for example to change into crossed feet.
At the same time, the lady is walking backward. I think that the timing is in
reverse i.e.
1. The ball of the rear foot reaches back (NOT steps back). When she is about
to cross that is the right foot.
2, The front knee softens and pushes. That causes the rear (right) foot to
glide back an inch or two. The direction is directly back, not at an angle. That
is the "slow march" analogy. I would stress that it is only an analogy.
3. The lady transfers most, but not all, of her weight to her rear (right)
foot.
4. Finally, in response to the man's full weight transfer, her weight is
transferred fully to the rear foot, and the front foot is ready either to brush,
or to cross, depending on the other factors particularly body angle changes and
the availability of space to cross.
If this fourth part of the step is led as a cross, the lady's left foot
should then glide into the cross position, as her shoulders square up to the line
of dance again. That is where the slight lift comes into play.
After all this, finally, as the man lets her down again (and it is very
fractional) the front (left) foot sinks down with her weight being transferred to
it. If the man is being conventional, that weight change is led by the man's
right foot weight down.
In my mind, the feeling of the cross is that the lady's front (left) foot
slides back so that its calf gently touches the shin of her rear foot and almost
pushes it backwards out of the way.
One of the problems for inexperienced women is that having made the right
foot back movement, they try to go into the cross with a slight backwards
movement of the right shoulder (it feels as though she is twisting away from the man)
before transferring their weight to the left foot. The movement then turns
into a sort of vestigial ocho. On the left foot crossing movement, I think that
the lady needs not the right shoulder back, but if anything the left shoulder
back, to square up to the man and the line of dance again.
It is amazing that such a simple movement requires so many cumbersome words
to describe it. However, it is also amazing that a single tip out of the many
which have appeared in this group is often enough to enhance a person's dancing
pleasure. It is clear that the fascination of the Tango is endless.
Laurie
