2231 opening up from an embrace
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:47:51 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: opening up from an embrace
Lois wrote:
I don't like it when some leaders "open up" in order to do a pattern they've
learned. I feel like they are pushing me away. I especially dislike it when
the move could be done in close. (Now, there are some leaders who can do
this smoothly enough so that I hardly notice, and I wish I could describe
the difference)."
He can only "open up" if you allow him to do it. With your left arm placed
across his upper back and your left hand holding his left shoulder, you are
able to firmly encourage him to keep you in his embrace. You can make it
difficult, or even impossible, for him to get away and force him to execute
it within the embrace. We can let men know that we enjoy dancing in the
embrace in this way.
Pichi de Buenos Aires
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:04:35 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Janis Kenyon wrote about forceful following:
"You can make it difficult, or even impossible, for him to get away and
force him to execute it within the embrace."
I was _forced_ once to dance in open embrace by follower (we started in
close embrace and she is comfortable with that style). She basically put her
thumb against my elbow - quite unpleasant and painful experience. I will
never dance with her again.
Moral: do not force the fun - suggest.
Cheers, Oleh Kovalchuke
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
>Reply-To: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] opening up from an embrace
>Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:47:51 -0300
>
>Lois wrote:
>I don't like it when some leaders "open up" in order to do a pattern
>they've
>learned. I feel like they are pushing me away. I especially dislike it when
>the move could be done in close. (Now, there are some leaders who can do
>this smoothly enough so that I hardly notice, and I wish I could describe
>the difference)."
>
>He can only "open up" if you allow him to do it. With your left arm placed
>across his upper back and your left hand holding his left shoulder, you are
>able to firmly encourage him to keep you in his embrace. You can make it
>difficult, or even impossible, for him to get away and force him to execute
>it within the embrace. We can let men know that we enjoy dancing in the
>embrace in this way.
>
>Pichi de Buenos Aires
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:46:12 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
I don't think Janis meant that the follower should do anything painful.
However, the follower can educate a leader about the ability to keep the
connection during some moves. If the follower is talented and flexible
enough, the leader will start to realize that the times he thought he had to
open up, he doesn't. Sometimes you need to develop the trust that there will
be enough room. That's one of the biggest hurdles that beginners have to get
over - the fear that there just won't be enough room.
To the leader who said "I don't like dancing in close - it's so confining
you can't do anything!" Perhaps you should consider another dance. In my
opinion, if you can't (or won't) dance close, you can't dance tango.
Lois
Minneapolis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Oleh Kovalchuke
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:05 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] opening up from an embrace
>
>
> Janis Kenyon wrote about forceful following:
>
> "You can make it difficult, or even impossible, for him to
> get away and force him to execute it within the embrace."
>
>
> I was _forced_ once to dance in open embrace by follower (we
> started in close embrace and she is comfortable with that
> style). She basically put her thumb against my elbow - quite
> unpleasant and painful experience. I will never dance with her again.
>
> Moral: do not force the fun - suggest.
>
>
> Cheers, Oleh Kovalchuke
>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:57:12 -0500
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR> wrote:
>He can only "open up" if you allow him to do it. With your left
>arm placed across his upper back ... You can make it
>difficult, or even impossible, for him to get away ...
Not a good idea.
My back's been hurt many times by women hanging on too tight. :-( It also encurages, even forces, leaders to use more force than necessary for leading.
When done right, as admitted by Lois herself, opening up should feel very natural and should feel like part of the dance. And yes, a tight embrace by the follower puts a limit on the steps that can be done, comfortably anyway.
As for reasons for opening up, other than for style, here are two:
- When the temperature is warm, to the point of being uncomfortable, a few seconds of open embrace allows a little cool air to flow between partners.
- When the embrace feels wrong, opening up briefly allows for adjustments to make it comfortable again.
Cheers
Act now to get a personalized email address!
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:09:07 -0500
From: white95r <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:16:57 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Lois Donnay writes:
> I don't think Janis meant that the follower should do anything painful.
> However, the follower can educate a leader
Hmm. How come you believe it's okay for
followers to "educate" leaders on the milonga floor,
yet if a leader were to attempt to educate
a follower during a milonga, it's (rightly!)
considered rude?
And how about the converse of the "Pichi
Maneuver?" If the leader is confident the move
can be accomplished in close embrace, but the
follower is not and tries to open up, should the
leader also take Pichi's suggestion and "firmly
encourage" the follower to maintain the close
embrace with his right arm, not allowing her
to open up?
And if Astrid can be (rightly!) annoyed when
the leader patronizes her by trying to dictate
tempo, why shouldn't the leader be annoyed when
the follower patronizes him and tries to dictate
embrace?
Just questions to think about. :)
Huck
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:08:04 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
I agree with Oleh that a good embrace is not forced. It should have a
sense of caring and mutuality in it.
When I was relatively new at tango, I was taken into a crushing embrace by
a woman who was about my height. She threw her arm around my neck and
pushed her body against me with great enthusiasm and bashed my glasses
into my face. Because I was not used to an aggressively tight embrace, I
found it very difficult to dance anything.
I have also been told by some women that if the leader applies an overly
restrictive embrace on them, the result is they are pulled off balance and
have a difficulty executing what has been led.
Opening an embrace slightly for some turns is a characteristic of some
approaches to tango, but the follower should never feel like she is being
pushed away, just that she is given enough room to make her movements.
That is accomplished by the leader softening his right arm a little. If
she doesn't need the room, that is fine. She doesn't need to take it.
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:28:27 -0500
From: "Fossey, Mary Ellen" <mfossey@BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
I was _forced_ once to dance in open embrace by follower (we
> started in close embrace and she is comfortable with that
> style). She basically put her thumb against my elbow - quite
> unpleasant and painful experience. I will never dance with her again.
That sounds extremely unpleasant. However, there is a valid reason a follower (even one who loves close embrace) will choose to dance open =
embrace despite the intention of the leader to dance close.
Pain.
If a leader is dancing in such a way that the follower is being hurt (for instance, holding the follower tightly rather than allowing for =
tortion), then the follower might look for her chance to move to an open embrace. If she then keeps her left hand on the leader's forearm (or =
her thumb into his arm--ouch, not so nice), the embrace cannot move back into close.
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:22:42 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Mary Ellen wrote:
"there is a valid reason a follower (even one who loves close embrace) will
choose to dance open embrace despite the intention of the leader to dance
close.
Pain."
Pain would be valid reason.
And so by not dancing with that particular follower anymore I spare both her
and me the pain of dancing with each other and contribute to overall good
feel of milonga. We still say hi to each other.
Cheers, Oleh Kovalchuke
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: "Fossey, Mary Ellen" <mfossey@BU.EDU>
>Reply-To: "Fossey, Mary Ellen" <mfossey@BU.EDU>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] opening up from an embrace
>Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:28:27 -0500
>
>I was _forced_ once to dance in open embrace by follower (we
> > started in close embrace and she is comfortable with that
> > style). She basically put her thumb against my elbow - quite
> > unpleasant and painful experience. I will never dance with her again.
>
>That sounds extremely unpleasant. However, there is a valid reason a
>follower (even one who loves close embrace) will choose to dance open
>embrace despite the intention of the leader to dance close.
>
>Pain.
>
>If a leader is dancing in such a way that the follower is being hurt (for
>instance, holding the follower tightly rather than allowing for tortion),
>then the follower might look for her chance to move to an open embrace. If
>she then keeps her left hand on the leader's forearm (or her thumb into his
>arm--ouch, not so nice), the embrace cannot move back into close.
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:34:34 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Tanguero Chino wrote:
"As for reasons for opening up, other than for style, here are two:
- When the temperature is warm, to the point of being uncomfortable, a few
seconds of open embrace allows a little cool air to flow between partners.
- When the embrace feels wrong, opening up briefly allows for adjustments to
make it comfortable again."
I open in a "V" shape (as opposed to the usual "=" shape) to let follower to
step in front me with left foot - front ochos (especially to milonga), front
step to the left in grapevine and self-ganchos.
Cheers, Oleh Kovalchuke
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
>Reply-To: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] opening up from an embrace
>Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:57:12 -0500
>
>Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR> wrote:
>
> >He can only "open up" if you allow him to do it. With your left
> >arm placed across his upper back ... You can make it
> >difficult, or even impossible, for him to get away ...
>
>Not a good idea.
>
>My back's been hurt many times by women hanging on too tight. :-( It also
>encurages, even forces, leaders to use more force than necessary for
>leading.
>
>When done right, as admitted by Lois herself, opening up should feel very
>natural and should feel like part of the dance. And yes, a tight embrace
>by the follower puts a limit on the steps that can be done, comfortably
>anyway.
>
>As for reasons for opening up, other than for style, here are two:
>
>- When the temperature is warm, to the point of being uncomfortable, a few
>seconds of open embrace allows a little cool air to flow between partners.
>- When the embrace feels wrong, opening up briefly allows for adjustments
>to make it comfortable again.
>
>Cheers
>
>
>Act now to get a personalized email address!
>
online time. https://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200363ave/direct/01/
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:22:35 -0500
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Hi All,
> >He can only "open up" if you allow him to do it. With your left
> >arm placed across his upper back ... You can make it
> >difficult, or even impossible, for him to get away ...
It seems to me that the best solution would be to follow what the leader is
trying to lead and then if you don't like how that leader dances then
politely decline the next dance. The only time, I feel, a follow should
resist what the leader is leading is if it is going to put her in harms way
somehow.
As far as the woman who felt pushed into an open embrace. That is not good
at all. You should never feel pushed into anything. To go from closed
embrace to open embrace, the follow should feel a gentle release from the
leader and she should fill that space. Now this is not an easy thing for the
leader nor the follow... so cut each other some slack if it does not go
perfectly the first time.
I love watching great dancers who can effortlessly move from closed to open
and back again.. that is the mark of a great Tango dancer... to me.
> As for reasons for opening up, other than for style, here are two:
>
> - When the temperature is warm, to the point of being
> uncomfortable, a few seconds of open embrace allows a little cool
> air to flow between partners.
> - When the embrace feels wrong, opening up briefly allows for
> adjustments to make it comfortable again.
Two excellent points. I very much enjoy dancing both closed and open, but I
often dance open embrace at Milonga's because I am blind in my left eye.
When I dance with a woman who is my height or taller in closed embrace, it
is very difficult for me to navigate the floor effectively. If the floor is
not crowded then I may dance close embrace but do releases in order to check
out the traffic.
Luckily, here in Atlanta we have many wonderful dancers... some dance open
embrace, some dance close embrace, and many alternate between the two. It is
all fun, all beautiful, all good, and all tango.
The only thing that is not good, is when someone operates under the mistaken
belief that their one way is the right way... what could be more ridiculous
and silly than that. And when I hear things like, "That's the way they do it
in Buenos Aires." My response is "And?" I just don't see why it should
matter how they dance it there. Don't get me wrong it is good to have a
healthy knowledge and respect for the origins of any art form, which I
believe Tango to be. But if it is a living art form, which I also believe
the Tango to be. Then it should grow, adapt, and be open to innovation.
Otherwise, we are all just preservationists of a dead art/dance.
Another note about how they do it in Buenos Aires... When I dance, that
dance is between me and my partner. It does not matter if we are in Atlanta
or Buenos Aires. It is about how it feels, not where I am at. Nor does it
matter how the leader to either side of me or thousands of miles away is
doing it.
That is just my opinion... I could be wrong ;-)
Thanks,
Clint Rauscher
Axial Partners, LLC.
clint@axialpartners.com
404-378-2937
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses]
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:15:50 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
I said:
> In my opinion, if you can't (or won't) dance close, you can't dance
> tango.
I should have said "If you can't (or won't learn how to) dance close, it's
unlikely you'll ever dance tango well".
There are so many other dances that don't make you get so close. YUCK! GIRL
GERMS!
I agree that the woman must also work on her technique so that she can keep
the embrace, and this lack is probably the reason so many men just
automatically open - they assume the woman is going to fall away. I've had
men execute a move with me that they assume is going to break connection,
but when I don't let it, they are delighted. It can be kind of an "AHA!"
moment. Teaching by example?
Lois
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:54:40 EST
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Jeez, we (boys) used to say that in grammar school!
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 2/11/2004 16:18:07 Pacific Standard Time,
donnay@DONNAY.NET writes:
I said:
> In my opinion, if you can't (or won't) dance close, you can't dance
> tango.
I should have said "If you can't (or won't learn how to) dance close, it's
unlikely you'll ever dance tango well".
There are so many other dances that don't make you get so close. YUCK! GIRL
GERMS!
I agree that the woman must also work on her technique so that she can keep
the embrace, and this lack is probably the reason so many men just
automatically open - they assume the woman is going to fall away. I've had
men execute a move with me that they assume is going to break connection,
but when I don't let it, they are delighted. It can be kind of an "AHA!"
moment. Teaching by example?
Lois
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:06:57 -0800
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Hello list:
I really liked Carlo's comments in this string.
IMHO!!
The thought of even inferring that if someone does know close embrace, they
don't know tango or will even dance tango well, is pretty appalling to me. I
believe it is important to understand (it certainly opens up the possibility
of more expression) close embrace tango for some pretty obvious reasons.
This is a dynamic dance. Tango is what we bring with us to the dance and to
say yes to the whole bloody package (however it does not mean that one has
to participate in a certain activity).
Thank you Carlos, I think the idea of using epoxy body is an interesting one
but only glue the two peoples nipples together, this may be a good tool to
learn close embrace. Perhaps I
may implement this with my own students. However I think there are much
better tools to get that job done.
David~
Dancing with combat boots on.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 4:55 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] opening up from an embrace
Jeez, we (boys) used to say that in grammar school!
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 2/11/2004 16:18:07 Pacific Standard Time,
donnay@DONNAY.NET writes:
I said:
> In my opinion, if you can't (or won't) dance close, you can't dance
> tango.
I should have said "If you can't (or won't learn how to) dance close, it's
unlikely you'll ever dance tango well".
There are so many other dances that don't make you get so close. YUCK! GIRL
GERMS!
I agree that the woman must also work on her technique so that she can keep
the embrace, and this lack is probably the reason so many men just
automatically open - they assume the woman is going to fall away. I've had
men execute a move with me that they assume is going to break connection,
but when I don't let it, they are delighted. It can be kind of an "AHA!"
moment. Teaching by example?
Lois
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:01:25 -0400
From: Keith Elshaw <keith@TOTANGO.NET>
Subject: opening up from an embrace
Thanks to you all for an interesting thread.
Having only been in exploration of the close embrace for 3 years, I claim no
special insight or knowledge.
As a leader under it's spell, I hope women take Pichi's advice to heart.
When I follow (a woman), I do what she suggests.
There are 2 situations I recently encountered I thought relate to this
thread:
1. When I start, I tune-in to where the woman wants to be. If she goes with
what is natural to me - we are in the embrace. But, I subscribe to the
belief that is it the woman's choice how close.
If someone doesn't want to be close (even loosely close), I do the "thank
you" thing pretty quickly.
A completely WONDERFUL dancer asked me, after a lot of dancing over a few
nights, if we could dance farther apart. Sure, I said. (Meaning it. She is
fantastic to dance with. A much better dancer than me. And I can dance in
open embrace).
Through the next song, my right arm was not even touching her. It was out in
the air. I was not keeping her in an embrace. But she stayed glued to me -
heads tightly together.
We laughed at the end of the song. Maybe her ideas have changed now. The
embrace is not about arms and tightness. I don't hold anyone close. But I
dance close embrace. The music was asking for it.
It's an attitude. No?
The second situation:
A women was taught what she was told is "Tango-Ancien" style. We are in
close embrace, but when she thinks (guesses) a turn is coming, she takes her
arm off my shoulder and moves it down my arm. It's a habit she was taught by
someone with a quirky style that is jerky.
I don't like her breaking the embrace (often I'm not even going to lead a
turn). But, in a year, I have never said a word about it.
I say nothing out of respect.
She keeps doing it. I keep saying nothing. But, it bothers me. I guess it is
a small matter of pride to me that she doesn't know I am bothered. I want
her to enjoy the dancing.
She is a great dancer - but is breaking the feel all the time.
I wish she knew - but (my professional mind-set) - I don't think it's my
place to tell anybody anything outside of a class. It is more important to
me to keep dancing with her than to "make" her do what I want. She is
missing something, though.
Any advice, ladies?
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:29:36 -0500
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Lois wrote:
"To the leader who said "I don't like dancing in close - it's so confining you can't do anything!" Perhaps you should consider another dance. In my opinion, if you can't (or won't) dance close, you can't dance tango."
I'm sorry, but this is a very ignorant thing to say. First of all...there are many great and innovative tango dancers out there (not to mention very successful professionals) who don't dance close embrace. Take Fabian Salas for example...are you trying to say he's not dancing tango cause he chooses a particular style? Gee...for someone not dancing tango, he sure is well-respected in the tango community both here and in Argentina.
Tango is not written in stone. Style is style. If everyone danced exactly the same style, well...watching dancers would be boring. I prefer close embrace, but I also like to be innovative and creative and frankly there is a lot of things that are extremely difficult or impossible to be done in close embrace, and by dancing open, I don't lose any connection with my partner whatsoever. Connection is more than just the physical touching of your torso. And if we have forgotten, tango developed for many years in Europe as it was outlawed in Argentina, and in Europe many dancers didn't dance close because it was considered improper. Are we going to dismiss that time in history and say that had nothing to do with the development of the dance?
Nicole
Miami
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:17:02 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
For the first year & a 1/2 or so, I learned open embrace. By bugging
other dancers, watching, taking a lesson before a dance, & 3
Daniel Trenner/Rebecca Shulman videos. I prefer close-embrace now,
unless the room is too hot. I've got a couple favorite partners, that I would love
to dance close with & they are now choosing the open style. ala Astrid's
wise suggestion about tactfully choosing open. Those partners want to
work on leg wraps, foot drags, those push things where the leader steps
into the follower's thighs- asking for a front boleo & more. Plus they want more
leeway in creating/interpreting their dancing. I suppose, we're kinda having a
figurative conversation, I listen sometimes & v/v. Not sure how else to phrase
that. I can talk, she can talk, listen, etc. Its all good.
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:10:55 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening up from an embrace
Nicole writes:
> Tango is not written in stone. Style is style. If everyone
> danced exactly the same style, well...
...Well...we'd all be ballroom dancers!
Huck, ducking
