2987 Passion vs. technique
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:17:14 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Passion vs. technique
Hmmm, good thing that tango is not like medicine or even like auto repair.
For myself, I'd much rather have the most skilled and technically
profficient surgeon work on my body than the most passionate doctor
wannabee. Similarly with auto repairs, plumbers, carpenters, etc. I've met
plenty of passionate incompetents who in their overconfidence and hubris
will make a huge mess out of whatever they touch. I'd take technical
competence and solid credentials over passion anytime when it comes to many
aspects of life. Engineering and toolmaking come to my mind (I'm very
familiar with these fields) and I know for a fact that technical competence
is paramount to success and respect in those professions as well.
I keep reading how in tango is better to have "passion" than to be
technically competent, but in all of life's facets, this would seem to be
the exception rather than the rule. Still, it's seems a bit far fetched even
in tango that a "passionate" newbie would be a better dancer than an
expererienced, skilled, technically proficient dancer just because somebody
has decided that passion and technical ability are mutually exclusive.
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:32:26 -0800
From: Tango Club at Yale <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Passion vs. technique
Hi all,
Well, everybody who has ever danced with a beginner with boundless enthousiasm and passion will see that some careful technique is needed to smoothen out the connection so it doesn't come between the dancers but rather unites them seamlessly. Steps are of secondary importance. Also there are lots of leaders who charge around the floor like metronomes, executing all the steps in their repertoire, without stopping to smell the roses. This would include a large portion of leaders. These guys tend to progress toward ever more complex sequences which you grow to appreciate as an artful workout and a great opportunity to work on your technique. All of it is a lot of fun, regardless. The real precious connection - tango zone - trance dances are few and far between; they are great, they can totally make your evening, but thankfully I am able to appreciate dancing with almost everybody, as long as I am not being yanked around by the ribcage, cut short, pulled off my axis, or made to feel
cheap and creeped out.
On a different note, if you have seen a lot of performances by those considered to be the world's top dancers (for example, on the Cosmotango DVD), it may be that after the awe over the footwork wears off, the performances you like best are the ones bursting with fun, flirtation and bubblyness (there's several), and perhaps also the ones that radiate intimacy (there probably is one but I can't think of one off the top of my head). Some people confuse serious and pained frowns with passion. Most often I am not terribly interested in performances, especially if they involve fedora hats, over the top outfits and assorted theatrics. I think tango is not a spectator sport, it belongs to the people who participate.
Tine
WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
Hmmm, good thing that tango is not like medicine or even like auto repair.
For myself, I'd much rather have the most skilled and technically
profficient surgeon work on my body than the most passionate doctor
wannabee. Similarly with auto repairs, plumbers, carpenters, etc. I've met
plenty of passionate incompetents who in their overconfidence and hubris
will make a huge mess out of whatever they touch. I'd take technical
competence and solid credentials over passion anytime when it comes to many
aspects of life. Engineering and toolmaking come to my mind (I'm very
familiar with these fields) and I know for a fact that technical competence
is paramount to success and respect in those professions as well.
I keep reading how in tango is better to have "passion" than to be
technically competent, but in all of life's facets, this would seem to be
the exception rather than the rule. Still, it's seems a bit far fetched even
in tango that a "passionate" newbie would be a better dancer than an
expererienced, skilled, technically proficient dancer just because somebody
has decided that passion and technical ability are mutually exclusive.
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:38:56 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Passion vs. technique
>WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
...I've met
>plenty of passionate incompetents who in their overconfidence and hubris
>will make a huge mess out of whatever they touch. I'd take technical
>competence and solid credentials over passion anytime when it comes to many
>aspects of life. Engineering and toolmaking come to my mind (I'm very
>familiar with these fields) and I know for a fact that technical competence
>is paramount to success and respect in those professions as well.
1. All the tools were created initially in a moment of "passion".
Indifferent people have no desire to make them.
2. Passionate incompetents could have enough passion to stick around to
learn the skills. Indifferent incompetents? How do passionate competents
compare to impassionate "competents"?
3. Solid credentials (recognition by peers) are result of deep interest,
passion (unless you are talking about degrees and other superficial labels
(incompetent doctors come to mind), which is separate topic altogether).
>just because somebody
>has decided that passion and technical ability are mutually exclusive.
I would substitute "somebody" with "evildoer" in the above sentence. The
word is sorely underutilized lately.
Cheers, Oleh K.
Coloraddo Springs
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:46:41 -0500
From: "Fossey, Mary Ellen" <mfossey@BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Passion vs. technique
Also to consider - A so-called passionate tango, danced without a solid
understanding of the technical basics of the dance, can lead to
wincingly bad "melodrama."
And too often, these are also the dancers who spend most of the dance
checking themselves out in mirrors or looking for a reaction from
innocent bystanders.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:17 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Passion vs. technique
Hmmm, good thing that tango is not like medicine or even like auto
repair.
For myself, I'd much rather have the most skilled and technically
profficient surgeon work on my body than the most passionate doctor
wannabee. Similarly with auto repairs, plumbers, carpenters, etc. I've
met
plenty of passionate incompetents who in their overconfidence and hubris
will make a huge mess out of whatever they touch. I'd take technical
competence and solid credentials over passion anytime when it comes to
many
aspects of life. Engineering and toolmaking come to my mind (I'm very
familiar with these fields) and I know for a fact that technical
competence
is paramount to success and respect in those professions as well.
I keep reading how in tango is better to have "passion" than to be
technically competent, but in all of life's facets, this would seem to
be
the exception rather than the rule. Still, it's seems a bit far fetched
even
in tango that a "passionate" newbie would be a better dancer than an
expererienced, skilled, technically proficient dancer just because
somebody
has decided that passion and technical ability are mutually exclusive.
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:25:37 -0500
From: Ira Goldstein <eyegee@TWCNY.RR.COM>
Subject: Passion vs. technique
Great Dancing:
<<...the Highest Intelligence in the Freest Body.>>
(Isadora Duncan)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:03:52 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Passion vs. technique
--- white95r@HOTMAIL.COM wrote:
Hmmm, good thing that tango is not like medicine or
even like auto repair.
Hola Manuel,
Indeed, it is a very good thing that tango is not like
auto repair. How dull and greasy milongas would be.
For me, tango is more like restoring an antique car
than changing the oil in the new Ford. One is a labor
of love, the other is dull. No matter how finely
skilled the technician, I can t imagine anyone getting
excited about an oil change.
Dancing is art. If you want to compare it to other
fields, compare it to other art forms. In any art,
technique is essential, but it is not sufficient. Art
must evoke an emotional response. Without passion,
there can not be art.
You and I must be using the word passion
differently. In my work, I deal with literally
hundreds of people on complex projects. Some are
passionate about their work, and too many are
incompetent. But I can t think of a single example of
someone who is both. Passion and technical ability are
not mutually exclusive. In fact, I cannot imagine the
passionate person who does not continuously develop
their technical ability. Sadly, I can imagine the
person so obsessed with technique that they become
blind to art.
I also am very familiar with structural engineering,
and I know that once you ve learned it, the technique
required is simple. So simple that even a mindless
computer can design a bridge to carry a highway across
a river. But to make that bridge beautiful, now that
is hard work, and no amount of technical skill can
substitute for passion. A technically competent dancer
is like a concrete highway overpass. A passionate
dancer is like the Brooklyn Bridge.
We know that Roebling had mastered the engineering
technique available 120 years ago, because his bridges
don t fall down. Today, there are thousands of
engineers who have far surpassed his technical skill.
But most aren t building bridges like he did. To me,
that suggests that technical competence is not
sufficient even for something as simple as
engineering. Passionate engineers create landmarks.
Dispassionate engineers specify jersey barriers.
I know what I like in a dance partner. But I did not
say that a passionate beginner is better than a
heartless automaton. Each has strengths and
weaknesses. How much hubris is required to judge that
one is better than another? I can tell you what I
prefer in my partners, but I won t judge who the
better dancer is. In any event, these two are overly
simple theoretical archetypes, useful for discussion,
but not to be confused with actual human beings.
Too many people responding to my post have missed my
point. I did not write that technique and passion are
mutually exclusive. I did not even write that
technique is not necessary. I wrote Technique is
essential. (I really did. Really check the
archive.) You cannot dance without technique, but
technique is not sufficient for dance. If this still
doesn t make sense to you, consider: You can t live
without breathing, but breathing is not sufficient for
life. (You ve got to dance too! ;o)
Sean
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:07:37 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Passion vs. technique
>I know what I like in a dance partner. But I did not
>say that a passionate beginner is better than a
>heartless automaton. Each has strengths and
>weaknesses. How much hubris is required to judge that
>one is better than another? I can tell you what I
>prefer in my partners, but I won t judge who the
>better dancer is. In any event, these two are overly
>simple theoretical archetypes, useful for discussion,
>but not to be confused with actual human beings.
Hi Sean,
I actually was not really responding to your post, but anyway you make my
point rather eloquently and elegantly. Your words describe the feelings that
too often go with these discussions. It goes without saying that passion is
an absolute necessity for true artistic and creative expression. I'm not one
here putting down passion, that would be absurd. Actually, I'm rather
passionate about tango myself ;-). Not only that, but I get into impassioned
discussions with other passionate people such as yourself ;-)
My only concern is about the rather facile but wrong arguments that appear
here from time to time. I'm sure you and other fine dancers and tango lovers
do not mean to say that only passion is the essence of tango while technical
talent is to be relegated to the ash heap of history, but please consider
your very words: "But I did not say that a passionate beginner is better
than a heartless automaton" then you go on to say that even the "heartless
automaton" has his strenghts and weaknesses. Maybe I'm parsing words here
but it does seem to me that the choice is clear. Either one is a
"passionate" dancer or a "heartless automaton". Now, since it has been
discussed at lenght and many folks have authoritatively stated that
technical skill or talent is the antithesys of, or mutually exclusive to
passion, it sound to me that at least some people are believing that a
technically skilled dancer is perforce a ""heartless automaton" and a
passionate dancer is the epitome of tango expression. Needless to say, the
passionate dancer cannot possible be technically talented........
Best regards,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:33:59 -0800
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Passion vs. technique
Technique and Passion cannot be separated. Look at
figure skating - the judges score for BOTH "Technical
Merit" and "Artistic Impression."
I know . . . Skating for judges is not the same as
Tango with a partner, but you need to excel at both to
be a GREAT dancer. There is a continuum below GREAT
that includes all of us.
Another aphorism - "Beauty is in the eye of the
beholder" - also holds some truth about Tango and
styles thereof.
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:37:29 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Passion vs. Technique
Dear list I will reproduce this note that I wrote long ago.
People dance for different reasons, some do it for celebration of special
religious or non religious events, some do it as a profession, others for
fun and entertainment.
Tango could be danced for all the above reasons but it is also danced for
feeling and concentration in the music and in each other's partner.
It has a physical connection that is more or less rapidly learned. This
connection requires a solid frame, it could be an open or a closed embrace.
Both arms, hands and the chest are important elements in this contact or
connection between the two bodies. There is an awareness of each-other and
where the respective feet and weights are located.
These elements are basic. It is difficult to dance unless they are mastered.
The other aspect of connection is spiritual and it is precisely there where
great part
of the pleasure this dance produces is located.
This connection commences with the stare and nodding at the time of the
invitation to dance, it continues during the walk towards each other to get
close enough to be able to establish physical contact. There is some waiting
for the other couples to start moving and to start feeling the music. Then
the man offers his receptive left hand, there is the way she deposits hers
on his,
the type of embrace suggested and accepted. The intense concentration on
each other transmitted through their bodies.
He feels the music and proposes some moves, she is attentive to follow. The
bodies and souls are communicating, there are no other worries or thoughts.
They, the music and the dance. There is awareness of the heart beat, the
respiration, the pleasure, relaxation or tension. The music has its
beginning, its mid part, its adagios (slow moments), its fast impetus, then
the preparation for the ending and finally the ending. Both navigate the
floor as one and in communion with all the other dancers. The music stops,
they hold the embrace for a few instants and then separate.
Some people learned to dance but they never developed Spiritual connection
either with the music or with their partners.
They acquire great technique, lead and follow intricate steps and figures
but their dance has no feeling or soul.
They dance tango the same way as they dance any other dance. They never
learned the difference.( ) They follow any move with ease and precision,
tango technique has no secrets for them but they are spiritually absent.
( )
I think that spiritual connection and musicality are related, we try to
develop both at the same time during the teaching- learning process.
Frequently one is consequence of the other.
