328  Pre-Lead?

Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:43:02 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Pre-Lead?

Robert from Santa Fe wrote:

>"Pre-lead" is the conveying of the next step or portion of movement in

advance of execution. >

This sounds like anticipation of the next step, something followers are
taught to not do. How could you pre-lead a step that wasn't planned by the
leader? Or are you saying that she should interrupt his lead and go where she
wants to? Any step can be changed by the leader at any point in it's
execution into another step so when and how does a women do this without
blocking his lead, or worse, tripping?

<If you or others wish to experiment, try the "sandwich game" as demonstrated
on one of Daniel Trenner's video tapes. It's a great way to develop lead
technique, balance, but also bring back the fun and improvisation back to the
dance.>

Again more video learning. and sales. Who corrects you if you are improperly
executing this? Why did the fun and improvisation go away?

Cheers,
Charles

Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:44:03 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Pre-Lead?

> Robert from Santa Fe wrote:
>
> >"Pre-lead" is the conveying of the next step or portion of movement in
> advance of execution. >

Charles wrote:

> This sounds like anticipation of the next step, something followers are
> taught to not do. How could you pre-lead a step that wasn't planned by the
> leader? Or are you saying that she should interrupt his lead and go where

she

> wants to?

As I understand it, what he means is, if a woman is learning to lead, she
should also learn how to prelead, because that will make her a better
leader.

Reminds me of how Gavito made a great show of demonstrating this in his
class, preleading a woman, and then grinning "apologetically", when she
started stepping back, then realised he was still standing there without
making a move, she'd start to look confused, giggle nervously, he'd make her
start from the beginning and perform the same trick all over again. None of
us could really see what he was doing, and he'd have his "magic gleam" in
his eyes, grinning smugly, but then told the men, this is the way it needs
to be done if they don't want to end up banging knees and stepping on the
woman's feet in close embrace. How exactly it is done, he did not explain,
just kept saying: "Intention ! You see ? Intention !!"
I have often wondered how come I know just where a man will step in the
salida, to the side or to the back, and why I am prepared when he finally
does. One of the worst moments for me was when a man at the Salas workshop
stood with me, and then stepped to the side with a great flourish, while I
stepped to the front with just as much flourish, and we fell all over each
other. I still wonder what a strange way his body had of indicating his
first move...
; )
Astrid

Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:26:42 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pre-Lead?

Hi all,

astrid wrote:

> How exactly it is done, he [Gavito] did not explain,
> just kept saying: "Intention ! You see ? Intention !!"

Three thoughts on technique:
A) Fully collecting each step is not merely an aesthetic issue.
If the follower is really following, they can only collect
when the leader takes them to solid collection, which usually
means that the leader should collect as well. A collected follower
is best able to sense the earliest indications of the next step.
B) For the leader, full collection in a good posture is the best
starting point from which "intention" can be indicated without
moving one's own center of gravity outside the support base
provided by the feet.
C) The location of one's "center" - the portion of the body that
we imagine initiates and marks walking steps - is not one on
which all instructors agree, but it is very important to
indicating intention. In my informal experience on this,
it helps "intention" to keep the "leading center" low [e.g.,
one's belt buckle] with no variations in posture.

I've been corrected many times on these! When my leading is
"off" it's always collection, posture, or "center".

Regards,

Frank - Minneapolis

Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)

Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:47:37 EST
From: Robert Madrigal <LekkerP@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Pre-Lead?

To all who responded and in particular to Charles,

Just want to clarify, I used the term Leader/follower as non-gender specific.
The reference to pre-lead is a term Leandro Palou uses to clearly bring your
intention on through to the next step. This useful for those not wanting or
not able to use a strong energectic lead.

As to who would correct the leader, that actually is the follower's role
(male, in this case) through either nicely executing the movement as lead or
stopping when the lead is unclear. The leader then reassess and makes a quick
correction and simply repeats his/her lead.

Tango (lead and follow) is much like conducting a conversation. when the
listener is not clearly understanding what is said, the speaker can repeat
the phrase. Do not forget, too, good speakers will use pauses to create
suspense and of course to breathe. I'll save the breathing technique for
another subject.

Robert
Santa Fe, NM

Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:23:52 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Pre-Lead?

I must confess some reservations about the idea of a pre-lead, unless it
simply means that the lead comes ahead of the follower's step. The lead is
best conveyed and received when the follower is in a foot-together
position. At this point, leading requires the minimal effort. Providing
leading signals at any other point creates many difficulties.

Leading after the follower has passed through the foot together position
requires a forceful and uncomfortable lead.
Leading before the follower reaches the foot together position only serves
to rush her and may even prevent her from reaching a foot together position
which could compromise her balance.

In addition, I find that remaining still between leading movements is the
key to a clear and gentle lead. If a pre-lead requires a movement in
addition to the lead, it would seem more likely to create confusion than
clarity.

--Steve (de Tejas)

Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/

Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:29:05 EST
From: Robert Madrigal <LekkerP@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Pre-Lead?

In a message dated 11/30/01 3:37:37 PM Mountain Standard Time,
Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG writes:

> Leading before the follower reaches the foot together position only serves
> to rush her and may even prevent her from reaching a foot together position
>

Stephen,

I agree with you about the ease for a leader to prompt his partner when her
feet are collected, however, the pre-lead is an "intention", which has a
certain amount of energy of motion to make it known what is intended as a the
next step following. This does not slow down nor speed up the rhythm, but it
does sharpen the skills of a leader to convey what is needed in advance and
be done comfortably.

I imagine all our tangueros are using this technique, whether consciously or
not, when dancing with less experienced dancers. Last Sunday, I had the best
dances of the evening with two tangueras who had only two months of
instruction and I did not use an on the body technique.

As I've written in other postings, I don't stand still between movements, as
my upper torso, hips and legs are separate links and will at times move
independent of one another.

Robert
Santa Fe, NM.

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:02:18 -0800
From: JeffryesSussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Pre-Lead?

--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:

> As I understand it, what he means is, if a woman is
> learning to lead, she
> should also learn how to prelead, because that will
> make her a better
> leader.

Maybe. I just think it's inelegant language. There
is no "pre"-lead. There's just "lead". "Pre-lead" is
a redundancy.

Pre-leaders like to go to the lunch counter and order
the "soup du jour of the day".

Jai

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:31:00 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pre-Lead?

Friends,

JeffryesSussex wrote:

>
> --- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> > As I understand it, what he means is, if a woman is
> > learning to lead, she
> > should also learn how to prelead, because that will
> > make her a better
> > leader.
>
> Maybe. I just think it's inelegant language. There
> is no "pre"-lead. There's just "lead". "Pre-lead" is
> a redundancy.

<rant ON>

Thank you Jeffry. This is worse than inelegant language.
This is an artificial distinction that can confuse students.
As complicated as it is, lead-and-follow simply requires clear
intention that is resolved by simple movement, or sometimes not
completely resolved yet flowing into the next intention.
To artificially divide the result of the leader's intent into
two components is to invite frustration and UNCLEAR leads.
Leaders have trouble generating intention while integrating
the many tasks for which they are responsible. They don't need
another indistinct theoretical construct. Appearances sometimes
to the contrary, the music is there for a reason - use it!
Followers don't read minds, they read the body from the very
beginnings of the leader's movement to their collection after
the step. Adjust your leading to the speed with which the
follower reads the body, fit that to the music as best you
can and WATCH OUT FOR THAT...

Ouch! ;-)

Frank in Mpls.

<rant OFF>

Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)