697  Real Men II

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:25:29 -0700
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Real Men II

I have the sensation that I have already been here, deja vue, the same
experience again step by step...

It seems that this discussion started in reference to the very positive
Tango Experience in Istanbul. Some people returned impressed by the
differences they found there with respect to similar places in the USA. This
originated a discussion about what "real men and women" are in the tango
world. At this point I was asked for my opinion by several people including
Astrid from Tokyo. I proceeded to explain that the roll of a man in tango is
a reflection of the social milieu that originated it. This is to say life in
Argentina (1880-1950). I expressed that although those values are rapidly
changing they are still present in the tango world in Argentina to some
extent as well as in some other places. I described what those rolls are in
general terms, without entering into too much detail due to reasons of time
and space.

I am amazed to see how many ideas and symbols were discovered by some people
in between those few lines.
I modestly feel like Ingmar Bergman, the famous Swedish Movie director.
Critics always discovered symbolisms and ideas in his films, elements that
Bergman himself had no idea existed till he read such critics."The
understanding of his rich symbolic language greatly enriched the
appreciation of his films". :) I remember for instance that in "Cries and
Whispers" the bent leg of Agnes after her death alluded to the painful
sacrifices humans make without the knowledge of God. Or perhaps to
crucifixion itself. :)

Sarah Larocca found the note offensive, ? I do not know why.
She came back from Argentina saying that "Tango in Buenos Aires was
something you had to endure in order to get to the best part...SEX". I am
not surprised then that she considers a real man anybody endowed with male
genitalia. I find her definition as acceptable as mine, but...I am not
offended at all,... from her perspective she absolutely right.

As to young people, they are a reflection of their milieu as well. They
prefer Techno, Disco, Free Styling, etc. They do not favor any of the
traditional ballroom dances except perhaps for some Swing or Salsa. The
Milongas in Buenos Aires on the other hand are full of young people dancing
tango, many following traditional venues.

Some feminists find my description threatening to their conquests. I am
surprised for I think that they deserve those conquests, for which they have
fought with conviction and energy. Nobody is going to take them away. I
feel very comfortable with our life in the year 2002, I like it very much
the way it is. I do not wish to change it. I really believe that
* if *anything needs to be changed the change will be done by women
themselves not by men. Please note that I said *IF.

Somebody said "when in Rome do as Romans do". I totally agree. I described a
historical fact, I did not say that everyone has to follow the same
stereotype at all. Buenos Aires offers all sort of clubs for all tastes.
Traditional ones that follow the rituals as described by me. Non-structured
ones attended by tourists and young crowds wearing sport attire and
sometimes even sneakers, Salon, Milonguero, Nuevo Tango, clubs for gays and
lesbians and everything in between. There is a place for everyone. So please
by all means, continue doing whatever is that you are doing where ever you
may be. Have a great time doing it.

Now we arrive to tango not being a museum and its evolution." I am told that
tango is changing that it is evolving, I am reminded of Nuevo Tango".

Each one of the Ballroom dances IMO, reflect the place and society that
originated it.
Fox-trot was born in the USA. Mr. fox acting on stage invented a trot dance
that carries his name. It was a Traveling dance.
As it became very popular due to crowding on the dancing floors it was
necessary to modify it and became an "on the spot dance" called "Crush". It
was further modified to become a "Social dance" . This term conveys its
purpose and limitations. New Sounds and beats from all over America were add
ed. This is an evolution of a dance similar to that of tango, with respect
to its adaptation to the spot, (milonguero) and social dancing (simplified
form, without boleos, amagues and the right care for navigation) and its
music.
Nuevo Tango IMO is not an evolution. It is the same as Milonguero, a
selection of moves, figures and steps that already existed in Tango Salon.
Salon is a very rich dance from which you may select a certain number of
figures. This certainly is not an evolution.

On the other hand there are some evolutions that end up creating different,
new dances.
Mambo was modified and Cha-Cha-Cha (today cha-cha) was born a totally
different dance.
Salsa is also similar to mambo in many aspects but is totally different.
Mambo moves back and forward, salsa has a different feeling and also moves
sideways, etc.

When an American tells me about the social spirit of the society that
originated Fox-trot, or any of its variations such as quickstep or an
Austrian tells me about the same with respect to Waltz I am not offended nor
threatened. I thought once that Polka was of Polish origin, James Stewart
from Scotland explained to me that it was from Bavaria. I was very thankful.

Finally most of the original Ballroom dances remain faithful to the period
and society that originated it.
Viennese Waltz for instance originated in the outskirts of Vienna in the
17th. century. An evolution of the Weller or peasant turning dances.

In summary when you ignore history and the basic culture and elements that
compose a dance, it will change into something else. It will lose its
character and personality.

It happened to Argentine Tango many times already. It changed into European
(International Tango), American Tango, Finnish Tango and who knows what is
coming next. I do not object to this either, please feel free to change
whatever you wish. We can still find a proper place where to dance.

The rituals are followed because they serve a very important reason...but
this something else.

Have a very good day. :)

I am encouraged by all those that understood my note correctly and asked
permission to reproduced it, I thank them whole heartedly.

Please see https://TOTANGO.net/equal.html for an example.

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:04:15 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Real Men II

IMHO, the role of the man in the tango is to dance, socialize and hopefully
enjoy himself. Likewise the role of the woman in tango is the same as the
man's. It seems sort of an argumentative endeavor to posit definitions of
"real men" and "real women" in tango or any other milleu. Personally, I
think all men and women are real unless they are a figment of the
imagination. Perhaps some of the list contributors who hide behind
pseudonyms are not "real" men or women ;-). ( maybe they are women posing as
men or vice versa). Anyway, all of you fellow tangueros and tangueras who
I've had the pleasure to meet over the years are real enough in my
estimation. The rest of you, I'll konw for sure when we meet ;)

Real tango partners to all,


Manuel

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:00:49 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Tango Evolution (was: Real Men II)

I agree Sergio's analysis that milonguero and nuevo tango have their roots
in tango de salon, although milonguero's roots are also in orillero and
more likely in the older forms of salon than are danced today.

The people who developed nuevo see it primarily as an intellectual
construct rather than a way of dancing, but I find it reasonable to
recognize that the intellectual constructs that developed nuevo have led to
the use of combinations of steps that are/were never danced in tango de
salon or orillero. Consequently, I find it reasonable to conclude that
nuevo is a style.

I think it is simply parsing words to argue that a whole new dance must
emerge before we regard the changes as evolutionary.

With best regards,
Steve

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:29:30 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Real Men III: Is Colorado Tango full of "Weenie Dudes"?

Sergio recently posted a powerfully seminal message which, among other
points, also quoted an essay from "Brian Rosino from Modern Muse (Denver
Colorado)." Reading Brian's essay entitled "Tango: A Safe Place to Live
Dangerously", I found a tragicomic image coming to mind amidst the barrage
of questions, ideas, and opinions: the image springs from a recent event in
Argentina with which many of you are familiar. Near Cordoba, a cattle truck
overturned on the highway, spilling its dazed living cargo onto the road.
Hungry local Argentines suffering from the national financial crisis rapidly
divined the manna-from-heaven aspect of the situation, and promptly fell to
work at some high-speed amateur butchery. In an article from the New York
Times: "Reported one...[with a dreamy expression], 'The meat was rubbery
because there was no time to cure it...but it was good anyway.'"

Returning to the topic: Brian's message contains so many fascinatingly
provocative, yet disconnected threads, each wandering loose on its
own...while readers may be frustrated at the sense of chaos, I feel there is
considerable satisfaction in chasing down and nailing some of these runaway
tango cattle:

>>>

A friend of mine says Tango suffers from "Weenie Dude" syndrome.
<<<
Whoa Bossy! I'm a little unsure of the etymology of "Weenie Dude" (dudes of
short stature, as in "Teenie Weenie Dude"? Dudes who think with their
Weenies? Dudes worried about Teenie Weenies? And why is Denver a world
center for male, um..."enhancement" surgery, anyway? But I digress...)

>>>

In a majority of cases, the men who are the best on the dance floor are the
last to step up to the plate in everyday life to take care of a woman.
That's too dangerous. The guys
that make an effort to lead in life take longer to learn the dance....they
have less time.
<<<
Since Brian Rosino from Modern Muse hails from Denver, Colorado, Brian's
friend's opinion (which Brian seems to share) about the "majority" of the
"best" male dancers would seem to reflect on the personal relationships of
most of the best male Colorado dancers...or maybe also including the best
male dancers who visit Colorado. Oy vey, Brian...to drop an opinion in an
international forum about the best male dancers in Colorado being "Weenie
Dudes" will, shall we say, have certain RIPPLE effects in the local social
fabric, no? Or, <building a head of steam, here> are we to assume this
reckless broad-brushing is to slather over the personal relationships of ALL
good tangueros EVERYWHERE?!? Evidence, sir, for such a charge, we need
evidence!!

<pause for recovery of normal blood pressure and facial pallor>

OK, let's cut Mr. Rosino some slack for impassioned
overgeneralizing...Perhaps what Brian is really trying to express here is a
frustration he shares with many of us: that freely chosen obligations in our
everyday lives keep us from having as much time and energy as we'd like to
devote to our passion for tango. But there's a deep pit here that's worth
avoiding: watching others, less encumbered with such obligations, make
progress in things we'd like to have time for ourselves can easily lead us
down the throat of jealousy's green-eyed monster...and I've discovered that
little good can come from investing my energy consciously in that direction.
My experience suggests instead redirecting that jealous energy consciously
as, for example, an effective motivator for one's own tango improvement.
Having done so, and having improved oneself as a result, one can then choose
to be grateful to one's "competition" for the spur to improvement.
Gratitude of any sort, however convoluted, is a vastly preferable state of
mind to jealousy, in my experience.

Yet I'm not sure from your message, Brian, if you see tango itself as part
of the problem, part of the solution, or just part of the scenery. For you,
tango is based on "suspicion and insincerity" because the men aren't
courageous enough to "take care of women" in their non-dancing life.
(Incidentally, I don't agree with Ebert's quote at all, as I explained some
years ago in another posting, because it is far too limiting in its
description of the "emotional colors" of tango. It's much fairer to say
that tango is based on charm and seduction among willing partners, springing
from a time in Argentine history when men had five to ten minutes to
convince one of the few women around that they were the best man in the room
for her.)

You talk of "settling for tango two or three times a week" as if tango is
the safety valve that keeps the pressure from building to the point where
something good would happen. I'd agree that my need for tango often feels
like a hunger, a building pressure that must be satisfied. However, because
I'm blessed with the tango- and life-partner of my dreams, tango with other
partners isn't at all about ducking responsibility for the way I treat women
in my real life, nor is it about "suspicion and insincerity." I prefer to
see tango as opening a door for all of us into a whole new world of intimacy
and connection - with strangers, acquaintances, friends, lovers and life
partners, growing steadily in an ever-widening embrace - an experience that
in my book is definitely part of the "solution."

NOTES ABOUT COPYRIGHT:
Brian, you write "Copyright, Brian Rosino from Modern Muse" in your essay -
but it's my understanding that you will strengthen your case in court by
printing the date with the claim notice, as used in the following:

Copyright 2002 by Brian Dunn and Dance of the Heart

Abrazos,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:47:27 EDT
From: Maria Helena <TangoMaria@AOL.COM>
Subject: Real Men III: Is Colorado Tango full of "Weenie Dudes"?

Gee Brian, (Dunn) thank you for such a passionate response.

The private responses from women have been just as passionate. "Where can I
find a man like that?"

Unfortunately your copywrite claim to someone else's quote is not valid.

The proof for the "weenie dude" syndrome is how tango obviously gets in the
way of MANY people's personal romantic relationships. If you haven't noticed,
that's ok.

The generalization is mostly for Denver however, I have noticed visitors from
other parts of the U.S are not immune.

I do not depend on tango for passion in my life and I only respect my wife's
feelings about how well I dance.

Brian Rosino
ModernMuse1@aol.com