242  Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:11:39 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

On occasion a question comes up as to which modern tango recordings are
well suited for social dancing. Among the possibilites that people use for
social dancing are some of the recordings of
Orquesta Color Tango (later recordings),
Dan Diaz and the Tango Camerata (most recordings),
New York Tango Trio (a few recordings),
Litto Nebia Quinteto (a few recordings),
Los Reyes del Tango (??),
El Arranque (??),
Nuevo Quinteto Real (??)
Trio Pantango (very few recordings),
Sexteto Mayor (a few recordings).

For these orchestras which recordings do you like best for social dancing,
and are there other modern orchestras that have recorded tangos that are
well-suited for social dancing.

With best regards,
Steve

Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:39:47 -0700
From: ruddy zelaya <ruddy.zelaya@SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

Hi Steve,
I have struggled with that question for a long time.
I have to say that 10 years ago the decision was easy: one must
play what is available. And what was available (outside of
Argentina) was not much. Today is a different world.
One can obtain just about any recording of any song worth
having. The majority of these recordings have been digitally
remastered and cleaned up and are getting better with each passing
year.

So the question for me is more like, given the fact that a tango DJ
has/should have the best recordings from the best orchestras, composers,
band leaders, singers and musicians that ever recorded, should he/she
be playing modern recordings especially in light that most musicians
try to put their own stamp on the original by manipulating
the tempo, emphasizing different instruments, changing the
arrangements, or creating a whole new variant?

That is not to say that every variation done is wrong, far from
it, some variations were done even back then and sounded so much
better than the original that they have become the "standard".
For example, I much rather hear Gallo Ciego as arranged by Pugliese
than the original done by D'Arienzo. And speaking of D'Arienzo,
it was his orchestra that transformed La Punalada from a trivial
tango to a superb milonga.

That being said, can you think of any tango/milonga/vals recorded
by any of the orchestras you mentioned that is more suitable for
social dancing than the original?

Best regards,
--
ruddy

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:15:48 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

For the most part, I agree with the sentiments that Ruddy has expressed
about relatively modern recordings. I have assembled a few tandas of
relatively new recordings, but I do not use them very often.

These tandas include a mixed tanda with Carlos Garcia, Francini/Pontier and
Raul Garello which is made up of transition era playing that was recorded
in the 1970s, a short tanda from Litto Nebia Quinteto (1990s), one from the
New York Tango Trio (1990s), and mixed tanda of Trio Pantango, Hugo Diaz
(harmonica), Daniel Barenboim and Gidon Kremer. I also have a vals tanda
where I draw upon Orquesta Color Tango and Hector Varela.

Some people enjoy using some of the later Orquesta Color Tango recordings
for social dancing, although they sound very similar to Pugliese. Several
of tracks from the Tango X 2 CD, Una Noche de Tango including Gallo Ciego
(essentially Pugliese's arrangement recorded with better fidelity) and La
Cumparsita are very good.

In general, however, I find that many of the newer recordings either lack
the beat that really pulls one into dancing or that the arrangement just is
not as quite compelling as the classic recording from the golden age. On
the plus side, newer recordings have greater fidelity and the potential for
greater dynamics, and purchasing them helps support orchestras that can
play live.

With best regards,
Steve

Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:32:48 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

Heyo Steve and friends,

Stephen Brown wrote:

> In general, however, I find that many of the newer recordings either lack
> the beat that really pulls one into dancing or that the arrangement just is
> not as quite compelling as the classic recording from the golden age. On
> the plus side, newer recordings have greater fidelity and the potential for
> greater dynamics, and purchasing them helps support orchestras that can
> play live.

Was it L. Schifrin (or a name close to that) who arranged music for the
soundtrack of the Saura's film "Tango"? Nice fidelity. Some of the
cuts that might otherwise be danceable are played with extra impact.
Gallo Ciego is so rough that I prefer the Pugliese. However, the track
of Corazon d'Oro is a real crowd pleaser. [I don't play it until I've
caught the eye of somebody who loves to waltz. At the end, if the floor
was really movin', I've been known to sprint back to the controls and
re-start it for a second go-round! "Minnesota-nice" means tolerating
DJ's like me.]

Regarding amplifying older recordings, a nice compressor/limiter with
noise reduction is surprisingly helpful, especially when aided by a
graphic equalizer. We don't have the former so I have used my PC to
clean up favorite tracks, but that's time consuming and if the original
music is too far gone (and much of it is) then you're just changing the
defects, not improving the sense of fidelity.

Cheers,

Frank - Mpls.

Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:51:19 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

Lalo Schifrin is an Argentine composer/arranger/conductor who has worked in
the movie industry for many years, and he arranged the music for the Carlos
Saura film, Tango. A little known fact about Lalo Schifrin is that he
played piano for Astor Piazzolla many years ago.

The recording of Corazon de Oro on the soundtrack of Tango is truly
wonderful and very well recorded. The arrangement is very similar to that
played by the Francisco Canaro orchestra. Many diehards consider the
Canaro arrangement superior...

In thinking about modern tango recordings, there may be an issue as to what
to consider modern. How should one regard tangos, valses and milongas
played by contemporary orchestras in the classic (or nearly identical)
arrangements?

I have some reservations about the use of compression on old recordings.
One of the problems with the old recordings in the lack of dynamics.
Compression further reduces the dynamics.

With best regards,
Steve

Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:26:12 +0200
From: "drslvfalco@libero.it" <drslvfalco@LIBERO.IT>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

> Lalo Schifrin
> The recording of Corazon de Oro on the soundtrack of Tango is truly
> wonderful and very well recorded.

I also love his version of Zorro Gris, on the same soundtrack. I find
it wonderful for social dancing...

Thanks to all!
Salvatore

Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:50:57 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

Friends -

This discussion has always been interesting to me. I definitely think there
are modern recordings that are very worthwhile to play at milongas.
However, I consider these recordings as "specials" rather than as the "main
course" of the evening's dancing. The milongas I've attended that featured
heavy doses of modern recordings have never achieved the energy that the
vast majority of us seek when we attend a milonga. At certain practicas
this can be a very different story.

I really liked what Ruddy wrote. There are indeed very few modern versions
songs I PREFER to the golden-age classic versions, but I must say that I
feel there are times when the modern recordings can really add a nice spice
to an evening's dancing.

This kind of discussion, to me, really falls apart when good versions of the
same song played by different orchestras are compared and an attempt to
state that one version is superior is made. I think we should really pay
attention to the FEEL of the music, and decide whether it is suitable given
the atmosphere of a particular milonga.

Steve wrote:

{"Some people enjoy using some of the later Orquesta Color Tango recordings
for social dancing, although they sound very similar to Pugliese. Several
of tracks from the Tango X 2 CD, Una Noche de Tango including Gallo Ciego
(essentially Pugliese's arrangement recorded with better fidelity) and La
Cumparsita are very good"}

This needs some significant qualification in my mind. To my ears, the Tango
X 2 version of Gallo Ciego sounds NOTHING like Pugliese's 1950's version.
Yes, the arrangement is similar, but the FEEL of the music is quite
different, and the way the arrangement is executed is different. I invite
you to really listen to the bandoneons in both songs, then listen to the
violins, then the piano, etc. - you'll hear distinct and noticeable
differences, especially at the critical moment between phrases and pauses in
the music. Then back up and just feel how the music strikes you - I believe
you'll feel a difference, which would probably manifest itself in your
dancing. Multiply a slight difference in the dancing of one couple by 100
couples and the energy of a milonga can take a notable swing.

Next, the Color Tango/Pugliese comparison, always a source of spirited
conversation. To me, Color Tango sounds similar to Pugliese's work from the
70's and 80's (This is no coincidence!), but sounds nothing like Pugliese's
work before the late 1960's. In my mind, Pugliese's sound with Osvaldo
Ruggiero on bandoneon has no equal. When he left Pugliese in 1968, having
played with Pugliese since the 40's, several of his other musicians left as
well (and thus Sexteto Tango was formed). The Pugliese sound was rarely as
well-suited to social dancing afterwards. Thus, to me, when Pugliese is
mentioned (in the context of dancing), I'm thinking of his music from the
40's and 50's primarily. Color Tango's recorded music has a very smooth
sound as compared to Pugliese's music from the 50's that gives me a
distinctly different energy as a dancer. Again, a close listen to Gallo
Ciego played by these two orchestras will reveal the differences I'm
referring to.

Steve wrote again:

{" The recording of Corazon de Oro on the soundtrack of Tango is truly
wonderful and very well recorded. The arrangement is very similar to that
played by the Francisco Canaro orchestra. Many diehards consider the Canaro
arrangement superior..."}

Again, these two songs have quite different energies to my ears, and I dance
differently to them. The Tango Soundtrack version, I feel, sought to create
its own sound, and succeeded quite nicely....but comparing the two songs,
again, requires a bit of care. The thing that matters to the dancers is
that they FEEL different, and people dance differently to them. Really
listen to them and the differences come out. They're both excellent - what
feel do you want?

So, the bottom line is that I feel there are many excellent modern albums
with songs suitable for social dancing, but I prefer to note the differences
in their feel rather than try to say one's better than the other.

Happy listening and dancing -

Dan

Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:34:57 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

Dan Boccia wrote:

>I definitely think there are modern recordings that are very
>worthwhile to play at milongas. However, I consider these
>recordings as "specials" rather than as the "main course" of
>the evening's dancing. The milongas I've attended that featured
>heavy doses of modern recordings have never achieved the energy
>that the vast majority of us seek when we attend a milonga.

Most of us know that from the 1950s forward tango orchestras gradually
turned away from playing social dance music toward playing a concert style.
Much the same thing happened in jazz/swing music. Most of the big bands
shifted toward a concert sound on their recordings, but many retained a
dance style when playing live. For instance, it is very difficult to find
a good fidelity recording of the Count Basie orchestra with recordings
suitable for dancing, but the band was renown for playing live with a
steady dance beat.

One possibility is that the tango orchestras and jazz/swing bands saw the
dance and recording markets as being somewhat different--recordings being
principally for listeners who remained seated. Another possibility is that
changes in recording technology have created substantially different
approaches to playing music live and for recordings.

Even today, recordings and live performances have substantially different
sound qualities and feel. Live music has much greater dynamics which
conveys a visceral impact that has not yet been captured on recordings.
Even an average tango orchestra heard live has considerally more emotional
impact than a great tango orchestra heard on recordings.

Improvements in technology may have encouraged some recording musicians to
move away from a dance sound. As recordings and sound reproduction
equipment has improved, the ability to capture the detail and tonal
fidelity of the instruments has improved considerably more than the
dynamics. These improvements allow careful listeners to hear more deeply
into the music but have not done much to convey visceral energy. My
suspicion here is that detail and tonal fidelity are secondary in
importance to visceral impact for dancing. At the same time, the ability
to capture detail and tonal fidelity has encouraged musicians to develop
more complex arrangements, which may further reduce the visceral impact of
the music.

In addition, many musicians consider playing dance music as being too
limiting to their artistic expression, and that raises the possibility that
the better musicians either do not play dance music or do not reach deep
into their hearts and souls when doing so.

It also seems as though once a certain minimum quality of sound is reached,
improvements in sound quality seem to be of little interest to dancers. At
the same time that jazz/swing bands and tango orchestras began recording
with greater fidelity, interest shifted to rock and roll that was recorded
with a "garage sound" that conveyed a visceral feeling. This raises the
possibility that distortion itself contributes to the visceral feeling of
music--live or recorded. In fact, as recording technologies for rock music
improved, the musicians began adding distortion devices.

Given the foregoing, I suppose it is possible that modern tango recordings
can be substantially similar to the classics, while at the same time with a
different, less visceral feel.

Maybe the judicious use of distortion or compression can restore the modern
recordings to a sufficiently vintage feel? ;-)

Nonetheless, I have found some relatively modern recordings with good
fidelity and visceral impact that are worthy of consideration for use at
milongas. I am hoping to find more.

>So, the bottom line is that I feel there are many excellent
>modern albums with songs suitable for social dancing, but
>I prefer to note the differences in their feel rather than
>try to say one's better than the other.

With best regards,
Steve

Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/

Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:25:21 -0700
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

I wish I connected more with music from the classic era. Dancing would be
much more rewarding as the music is very well represented. I would be
grateful & have more enthusiasm/desire if 1/2 the music played was more
modern, beautiful instrumental Tango music. It can get very frustrating if
set after set of music that doesn't speak to me is played. Just as it would
be for someone who does love the older music & is faced with music that
doesn't speak to them as much. I wish I knew the answer, as there as people
like me out here & people not like me as well. It is a beautiful dance & I
love dancing it.

Respectfully,
Rick Anderson
Portland, OR

Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:28:44 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bugs Bunny" <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

> I would be
> grateful & have more enthusiasm/desire if 1/2 the music played was more
> modern, beautiful instrumental Tango music.

I too was attracted more by the more modern, instrumental music when I first
began to dance tango. I thought it was much easier to "feel" it or
"interpret" it than the old, scratchy "classic era" tangos. Of course, the
longer I danced and the more I learned to dance, the better I like the "old,
scratchy" CDs. I find that I've made the full circle and now I find those
"modern, instrumental music" CDs much harder to dance to. I guess it is
because the "classic era" music was arranged or invented, if you will,
specifically for the tango dance of those days (the heyday of the "club
style" tango dance). I would guess that generally, the more one dances the
"club" tango or "salon" tango, the more one prefers the specific music
played for the dancers of those days.

> is faced with music that
> doesn't speak to them as much. I wish I knew the answer, as there as

people

> like me out here & people not like me as well. It is a beautiful dance & I
> love dancing it.

The newer "modern, beautiful instrumental Tango music." is not made for the
club or salon tango. The lyrical and varied rhythms allow a dancer to
perform figures and steps without the constraints of the very rhythmic music
of orchestras like Darienzo, Tanturi, etc. In this respect, the newer music
could "speak to" the dancer in a more intelligible language ;-). Of course,
after one learns to dance "musically", one really craves the rhythm and
compelling cadence of the "classic era" tango music. I find that for me, the
classic tango music is much easier to interpret than the modern arrangements
of the old standards.

Now, there is another good point that needs to be made. The good DJs know
this quite well and the good dancers are also very aware that just because
the tangos are "old and scratchy", it does not automatically make them good
dance music. There are hundreds or even thousands of old tango recordings
that are pretty worthless as far as "speaking to the dancer" is concerned.
Just because one goes to Bs As and gets talked into buying a bunch of old
music in CD format it does not mean that one has a good dance music
collection!

If one does not enjoy dancing to the old rhythmic, classic tangos too much,
one can always go to Pugliese of the 50s or even Sexteto Major. These are
beautiful instrumentals with lots of passion and lyrical beauty and allow a
little more "theatrical" expression and more leisurely movements. At the
risk of starting a controversy, more modern Piazzolla can also be
interpreted without the exigency of the tango rhythms of Darienzo, Troilo,
etc. Anyway, please enjoy the tango in whatever way is best for each of you.
If some piece "speaks to you", by all means enjoy the dialogue!

Musical tangos to all,

Manuel

Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:05:32 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

> > I would be
> > grateful & have more enthusiasm/desire if 1/2 the music played was more
> > modern, beautiful instrumental Tango music.
>

You could also try going to a different milonga or practica. Every tango
teacher has his personal preferences for tango music, so selections and
tendencies in style vary from one place to another.
Chances are low that you'll get 50% modern, but there are places that play a
lot of things other than D'Arienzo and contemporaries. Check out which style
those teachers are dancing.
But as Manuel already said- the more you dance the more you learn to
appreciate the music, and you will get to know 5 or 6 (or more) versions of
La Cumparsita and so on and can see which one you like best.

Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:59:13 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

-----Original Message-----

Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:34:59 -0700
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Relatively Modern Recordings Suitable for Dancing?

Somewhere, someone has decided that the old, classic era of Tango music
should be played an inordinate amount of time at dances & I disagree. I
think it could be skillfully woven into an evening w/ lots of other very
danceable & enjoyable music. For me, this one style gets way too much
air/dance time & it noses out other very beautiful & danceable music, with
many dancers being short changed. I frequently go to dances where I'm faced
with a good solid hour of music that mostly sounds the same to me. This is
my personal opinion. I've been dancing 12 years many different styles &
Tango for the last 2.5 years, about 2x/week. I'm not fluent in the minutia
of technique, I'm mostly self taught by talking to & watching other dancers,
viewing some videotapes & dancing often. I go by feel mostly & set after set
of old music doesn't feel right at all. Anyway, that's my 2 cents, some
share my feelings & others don't. Portland is having a Tangofest in a couple
weeks, stop by & I'll be anyone a beer & we can visit about music.
Cheers,
Rick Anderson
Portland, OR