3195 Rephrasing of words
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:26:32 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Rephrasing of words
Hola Listeros,
Have been pondering the use of certain words commonly
used in tango, which I think may be psychologically
inhibiting to a dancer's development because of their
connotations. So I'm thinking of just dropping them
altogether and finding substitutes. I would
appreciate comments from anyone who has tried doing
something similar or who may have suggestions.
OLD ---> NEW
Leader ---> Man (regardless of it's a female leader)
Follower ---> Woman (regardless of it's a male leader)
Lead ---> Marca
Follow ---> ???
Tango Trance ---> ???
Why the change from Leader/Follower to Man/Woman? The
latter denotes equality and encourages the woman to
embrace her feminimity. I think the younger
generation is not growing up with the same fight for
women's rights that more mature women/men have
experienced. It's nice to know, for example, that
young men in the Air Force are SURPRISED to know that
women aren't allowed to fly certain aircraft.
As for Tango Trance? Sounds too passive to me. At
one point that was a correct term for me, but I'm not
interested in being a passive dancer anymore. I don't
want my partners to be passive. Even if we're dancing
slow and deliberately, there's still an intense and
engaging conversation happening, albeit a quiet one.
Gracias,
Trini de Pittsburgh
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:44:12 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
> Have been pondering the use of certain words commonly
> used in tango, which I think may be psychologically
> inhibiting to a dancer's development because of their
> connotations. So I'm thinking of just dropping them
> altogether and finding substitutes. I would
> appreciate comments from anyone who has tried doing
> something similar or who may have suggestions.
>
> OLD ---> NEW
> Leader ---> Man (regardless of it's a female leader)
> Follower ---> Woman (regardless of it's a male leader)
> Lead ---> Marca
> Follow ---> ???
> Tango Trance ---> ???
Trini,
you have to keep in mind that the terms "leader-follower" are inventions of
Daniel Trenner which were promoted around the United States. But nowhere
else. In no other part of the tango world I have visited have I ever heard
anyone call a woman a "follower", reducing her to her "function" in the
dance, a position that, with this coinage, might just as easily be filled by
a man. Other than "hombres-mujeres", they may be called barones y chicas
(guys and girls) in Spanish, e.g.,, but certainly not leaders and followers.
I have never liked this depersonisation of tango, making the act of dancing
sound void of emotion, and reduced to a mechanical process. So, getting back
calling a spade a spade, and calling a woman a woman, is perfectly fine with
me. I beg the forgiveness of those who like to switch gender roles in tango,
but I think, that this phenomenon is not major enough an issue to reduce all
the other "real" women from human beings to mere "followers".
>
> Why the change from Leader/Follower to Man/Woman? The
> latter denotes equality and encourages the woman to
> embrace her feminimity.
IMO, many women have no problem with their feminity, unless you start to
*discourage* them from fully applying it by terms such as these.
> As for Tango Trance? Sounds too passive to me. At
> one point that was a correct term for me, but I'm not
> interested in being a passive dancer anymore.
Trance is not a passive state at all. It is one of the states with the most
intense concentration, experiencing one particular feeling in full.
But, ok, if you will, call it concentrating intensely or being fully aware
of the movements of the dance.
Astrid
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 06:48:55 -0500
From: Martin Waxman <martin@WAXMAN.NET>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
???You brought me out of my trance.
Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a man.
Suppose the leader is a man and the follower is a man.
Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a woman.
I'm for using the terms leader and follower, without gender implications.
Safe ganchos.
Marty
At 12:44 AM 2/5/2005, astrid wrote:
> > Have been pondering the use of certain words commonly
> > used in tango, which I think may be psychologically
> > inhibiting to a dancer's development because of their
> > connotations. So I'm thinking of just dropping them
> > altogether and finding substitutes. I would
> > appreciate comments from anyone who has tried doing
> > something similar or who may have suggestions.
> >
> > OLD ---> NEW
> > Leader ---> Man (regardless of it's a female leader)
> > Follower ---> Woman (regardless of it's a male leader)
> > Lead ---> Marca
> > Follow ---> ???
> > Tango Trance ---> ???
>
>Trini,
>you have to keep in mind that the terms "leader-follower" are inventions of
>Daniel Trenner which were promoted around the United States. But nowhere
>else. In no other part of the tango world I have visited have I ever heard
>anyone call a woman a "follower", reducing her to her "function" in the
>dance, a position that, with this coinage, might just as easily be filled by
>a man. Other than "hombres-mujeres", they may be called barones y chicas
>(guys and girls) in Spanish, e.g.,, but certainly not leaders and followers.
>I have never liked this depersonisation of tango, making the act of dancing
>sound void of emotion, and reduced to a mechanical process. So, getting back
>calling a spade a spade, and calling a woman a woman, is perfectly fine with
>me. I beg the forgiveness of those who like to switch gender roles in tango,
>but I think, that this phenomenon is not major enough an issue to reduce all
>the other "real" women from human beings to mere "followers".
> >
> > Why the change from Leader/Follower to Man/Woman? The
> > latter denotes equality and encourages the woman to
> > embrace her feminimity.
>
>IMO, many women have no problem with their feminity, unless you start to
>*discourage* them from fully applying it by terms such as these.
>
> > As for Tango Trance? Sounds too passive to me. At
> > one point that was a correct term for me, but I'm not
> > interested in being a passive dancer anymore.
>
>Trance is not a passive state at all. It is one of the states with the most
>intense concentration, experiencing one particular feeling in full.
>But, ok, if you will, call it concentrating intensely or being fully aware
>of the movements of the dance.
>
>Astrid
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:09:18 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
>From: Martin Waxman <martin@WAXMAN.NET>
>Reply-To: Martin Waxman <martin@WAXMAN.NET>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Rephrasing of words
>Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 06:48:55 -0500
>
>???You brought me out of my trance.
>Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a man.
>Suppose the leader is a man and the follower is a man.
>Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a woman.
>
>I'm for using the terms leader and follower, without gender implications.
>
>Safe ganchos.
>
>Marty
>
>At 12:44 AM 2/5/2005, astrid wrote:
>> > Have been pondering the use of certain words commonly
>> > used in tango, which I think may be psychologically
>> > inhibiting to a dancer's development because of their
>> > connotations. So I'm thinking of just dropping them
>> > altogether and finding substitutes. I would
>> > appreciate comments from anyone who has tried doing
>> > something similar or who may have suggestions.
>> >
>> > OLD ---> NEW
>> > Leader ---> Man (regardless of it's a female leader)
>> > Follower ---> Woman (regardless of it's a male leader)
>> > Lead ---> Marca
>> > Follow ---> ???
>> > Tango Trance ---> ???
>>
>>Trini,
>>you have to keep in mind that the terms "leader-follower" are inventions
>>of
>>Daniel Trenner which were promoted around the United States. But nowhere
>>else. In no other part of the tango world I have visited have I ever heard
>>anyone call a woman a "follower", reducing her to her "function" in the
>>dance, a position that, with this coinage, might just as easily be filled
>>by
>>a man. Other than "hombres-mujeres", they may be called barones y chicas
>>(guys and girls) in Spanish, e.g.,, but certainly not leaders and
>>followers.
>>I have never liked this depersonisation of tango, making the act of
>>dancing
>>sound void of emotion, and reduced to a mechanical process. So, getting
>>back
>>calling a spade a spade, and calling a woman a woman, is perfectly fine
>>with
>>me. I beg the forgiveness of those who like to switch gender roles in
>>tango,
>>but I think, that this phenomenon is not major enough an issue to reduce
>>all
>>the other "real" women from human beings to mere "followers".
>> >
>> > Why the change from Leader/Follower to Man/Woman? The
>> > latter denotes equality and encourages the woman to
>> > embrace her feminimity.
>>
>>IMO, many women have no problem with their feminity, unless you start to
>>*discourage* them from fully applying it by terms such as these.
>>
>> > As for Tango Trance? Sounds too passive to me. At
>> > one point that was a correct term for me, but I'm not
>> > interested in being a passive dancer anymore.
>>
>>Trance is not a passive state at all. It is one of the states with the
>>most
>>intense concentration, experiencing one particular feeling in full.
>>But, ok, if you will, call it concentrating intensely or being fully aware
>>of the movements of the dance.
>>
>>Astrid
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 06:24:55 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
Dear Martin, I agree with you that gender has nothin
to do with who is a good leader or follower. It does
however have everything to do with learning how to
communicate. If one is dancing all the time with
another sex different than ones interest then one is
perhaps learning all the wrong things. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <martin@WAXMAN.NET> wrote:
> ???You brought me out of my trance.
> Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a
man.
> Suppose the leader is a man and the follower is a
man.
> Suppose the leader is a woman and the follower is a
woman.
>
> I'm for using the terms leader and follower, without
gender implications.
>
> Safe ganchos.
>
> Marty
>
> At 12:44 AM 2/5/2005, astrid wrote:
> > > Have been pondering the use of certain words
commonly
> > > used in tango, which I think may be
psychologically
> > > inhibiting to a dancer's development because of
their
> > > connotations. So I'm thinking of just dropping
them
> > > altogether and finding substitutes. I would
> > > appreciate comments from anyone who has tried
doing
> > > something similar or who may have suggestions.
> > >
> > > OLD ---> NEW
> > > Leader ---> Man (regardless of it's a female
leader)
> > > Follower ---> Woman (regardless of it's a male
leader)
> > > Lead ---> Marca
> > > Follow ---> ???
> > > Tango Trance ---> ???
> >
> >Trini,
> >you have to keep in mind that the terms
"leader-follower" are inventions of
> >Daniel Trenner which were promoted around the
United States. But nowhere
> >else. In no other part of the tango world I have
visited have I ever heard
> >anyone call a woman a "follower", reducing her to
her "function" in the
> >dance, a position that, with this coinage, might
just as easily be filled by
> >a man. Other than "hombres-mujeres", they may be
called barones y chicas
> >(guys and girls) in Spanish, e.g.,, but certainly
not leaders and followers.
> >I have never liked this depersonisation of tango,
making the act of dancing
> >sound void of emotion, and reduced to a mechanical
process. So, getting back
> >calling a spade a spade, and calling a woman a
woman, is perfectly fine with
> >me. I beg the forgiveness of those who like to
switch gender roles in tango,
> >but I think, that this phenomenon is not major
enough an issue to reduce all
> >the other "real" women from human beings to mere
"followers".
> > >
> > > Why the change from Leader/Follower to
Man/Woman? The
> > > latter denotes equality and encourages the woman
to
> > > embrace her feminimity.
> >
> >IMO, many women have no problem with their
feminity, unless you start to
> >*discourage* them from fully applying it by terms
such as these.
> >
> > > As for Tango Trance? Sounds too passive to me.
At
> > > one point that was a correct term for me, but
I'm not
> > > interested in being a passive dancer anymore.
> >
> >Trance is not a passive state at all. It is one of
the states with the most
> >intense concentration, experiencing one particular
feeling in full.
> >But, ok, if you will, call it concentrating
intensely or being fully aware
> >of the movements of the dance.
> >
> >Astrid
>
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:36:37 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
A little more background on my thinking
Men might not fully appreciate the effect the feminist
movement may have had on many, if not all, women
growing up in the 70s & 80s in the U.S.
Imagine being a 10, 11, 12 year-old girl
- who reads in the newspaper that the Equal Rights
Amendment has been voted down for the second time.
And that it wont be brought up again because if it
gets voted down a third time, well, its over.
- who sees headlines that ask, is America ready for a
Woman President?, when Geraldine Ferrar is nominated
as Gerald Fords running mate.
- who hears the phrase Whos wears the pants in this
family? on TV all the time.
- who hears Archie Bunker calling Edith dingbat
every week.
- who realizes that Wonder Woman is the only female
superhero that isnt somebodys wife or girlfriend.
- who, as she grows up, is warned about sexual assult
and learns that it is a issue over power.
- who graduates from college and applies for job in a
major corporation that doesnt let women wear pants
and this is the late 80s.
Still think the term follower is without
implications for a woman in a society that has
constantly reminded her that she is weaker than a man?
Even if women deal with empowerment issues
intellectually, theres still an imprint on the
psyche. What does tango do but draw out these deep
emotions?
Guys, when was the last time you ASKED your practice
partner what she wanted to work on? Im gonna guess
that shes done all the asking, if any. (Hmmm,
Valentines Day is coming.)
Ladies, how long did it take for you to realize that
you could add something to the dance than just a
pretty amague or boleo? How long did it take you to
actually practice it?
I think the terms "Leader" and Follower may inhibit
a womans dancing for fear of making a mistake. What
better words can we use to imply that a dialogue (even
one with digressions) is the standard, not the
exception?
Thank goodness, that when my nieces & nephews see the
first woman U.S. President, they may say, Of course,
a woman can be president. Wasnt it always this way?
Trini de Pittsburgh
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:46:38 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
> - who sees headlines that ask, is America ready for
> a
> Woman President?, when Geraldine Ferrar is nominated
> as Gerald Fords running mate.
Correction, Geraldine Ferraro was Walter Mondale's
running mate.
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:51:28 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
Tango trance => it is not a passive state, may be it sounds a bit passive.
so may be...
Tango ecstasy
Rythmic orgasm? ~ Tangosm
;)
astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> Have been pondering the use of certain words commonly
> used in tango, which I think may be psychologically
> inhibiting to a dancer's development because of their
> connotations. So I'm thinking of just dropping them
> altogether and finding substitutes. I would
> appreciate comments from anyone who has tried doing
> something similar or who may have suggestions.
>
> OLD ---> NEW
> Leader ---> Man (regardless of it's a female leader)
> Follower ---> Woman (regardless of it's a male leader)
> Lead ---> Marca
> Follow ---> ???
> Tango Trance ---> ???
Trini,
you have to keep in mind that the terms "leader-follower" are inventions of
Daniel Trenner which were promoted around the United States. But nowhere
else. In no other part of the tango world I have visited have I ever heard
anyone call a woman a "follower", reducing her to her "function" in the
dance, a position that, with this coinage, might just as easily be filled by
a man. Other than "hombres-mujeres", they may be called barones y chicas
(guys and girls) in Spanish, e.g.,, but certainly not leaders and followers.
I have never liked this depersonisation of tango, making the act of dancing
sound void of emotion, and reduced to a mechanical process. So, getting back
calling a spade a spade, and calling a woman a woman, is perfectly fine with
me. I beg the forgiveness of those who like to switch gender roles in tango,
but I think, that this phenomenon is not major enough an issue to reduce all
the other "real" women from human beings to mere "followers".
>
> Why the change from Leader/Follower to Man/Woman? The
> latter denotes equality and encourages the woman to
> embrace her feminimity.
IMO, many women have no problem with their feminity, unless you start to
*discourage* them from fully applying it by terms such as these.
> As for Tango Trance? Sounds too passive to me. At
> one point that was a correct term for me, but I'm not
> interested in being a passive dancer anymore.
Trance is not a passive state at all. It is one of the states with the most
intense concentration, experiencing one particular feeling in full.
But, ok, if you will, call it concentrating intensely or being fully aware
of the movements of the dance.
Astrid
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:04:08 -0800
From: Bailar Tango <bailartangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
SAW A DOCUMENTARY
MEN WHO WERE POWERLESS DUE TO ECONOMIC/POLITICAL REASONS
THEY STILL HAD POWER OVER 1 THING
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:13:04 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
Dear Trini:
Is it Trini or Sean, Trini and Sean, or Sean or Trini
or Trini and Sean? How can one comunicate with all
the confusion?
Derik
--- Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> > - who sees headlines that ask, is America ready
> for
> > a
> > Woman President?, when Geraldine Ferrar is
> nominated
> > as Gerald Fords running mate.
>
> Correction, Geraldine Ferraro was Walter Mondale's
> running mate.
>
>
> =====
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 08:50:52 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
Hi Derik,
Use whatever the signoff is, of course. Exactly as
you just did.
One email address for both of us works better for all
of our students.
- Trini
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Trini:
>
> Is it Trini or Sean, Trini and Sean, or Sean or
> Trini
> or Trini and Sean? How can one comunicate with all
> the confusion?
>
> Derik
>
> --- Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > > - who sees headlines that ask, is America ready
> > for
> > > a
> > > Woman President?, when Geraldine Ferrar is
> > nominated
> > > as Gerald Fords running mate.
> >
> > Correction, Geraldine Ferraro was Walter Mondale's
> > running mate.
> >
> >
> > =====
> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> > most popular social dance.
> > https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> viruses.
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo!
>
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:09:42 -0700
From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
> From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
>
> Dear Trini:
>
> Is it Trini or Sean, Trini and Sean, or Sean or Trini or Trini and Sean? How
> can one comunicate with all the confusion?
>
> Derik
(Off topic): As a woman who also shares an email address with her husband --
and receives replies to Paul when I've signed Karen -- my advice to Derik is
to READ who SIGNS the email, not the auto-formatted header ("Trini or Sean -
PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM> wrote:") But of course that wasn't Derik's
(humorous?) point & he does address Trini so I guess it wasn't all that
confusing...
I agree with Trini's posts, and also dislike "leader/follower," and (from
a previous thread), especially dislike being referred to as a "follow." I
don't even consider these to be gender-neutral -- there's too much history
of their use in ballroom dance with gender-specific connotations. In fact
that's another good reason to drop them, to further differentiate Argentine
tango from "the ballroom dances."
More importantly, "leader/follower" terminology diminishes the concept of
this dance as a conversation between two people.*
I appreciated Sergio's post placing this discussion in context of Argentine
culture. In our (Jenny DeBouzek & me, as Tango Downtown) classes we've used
the man/woman/marcar terminology fairly consistently since our first
sessions in 2001. In any given class, I dance the role needed to balance
partners (as do our students), and will say "I'm the man" when dancing that
role. Any initial resistance we met wasn't from those seeking gender-neutral
terms, but from those who felt this usage implied a claim to superiority
based on "authenticity." ;-)
For most of us on this list, Argentine tango is appropriated culture,
however much modified, transformed, or influenced by our own or other
contributions. I prefer using the "roots" role-designations, while
recognizing that most English-speaking Argentine instructors touring the US
have long-adopted leader/follower vocabulary. How many times have you heard
"hombres/mujeres" or "barones/chicas" translated as "leaders/followers" in
your workshop classes?
We have a growing group of women in NM who dance or are practicing to dance
both roles. It's fun, challenging, interesting -- and yes, different, per
gender/role exchanges. For the record, most of these women say, "I'm
practicing to lead/the lead," while I'll say "I'm practicing the man's
part." It's not something we argue; we just dance & enjoy.
Karen Reck
Albuquerque, NM
* "... we do not use the terminology of 'lead and follow,' instead
describing the dance as one in which the man invites the woman to create a
particular movement and the woman responds to that invitation. Rather than a
hierarchy of roles, we create a conversation between two equals." -- Jenny
DeBouzek, Tango Downtown
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:53:44 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
Dear Karen;
Thank you for appreciating my humor about Trini's
E-mail address. I think that you saw my
point....confusion....lol.
Basically, what I am trying to say is this. Women are
the leaders of the tango dance when the man has
stopped in a "prada", or when the woman has stopped
the man herself, which she can do. Woman are leading
the dance all the time. The reality is the "lead"
goes back and forth in a good conversation. Why the
heck do American women, in particular, want to try be
"little men" all the time. To me it is boring. I
think that maybe they should relax and enjoy the dance
and learn how to communicate, instead of attempt to
control others. I have nothing against a woman being
on "top", as it were, but not all the time...lol.
Same applies to close embrace versus open
embrace...both are really versions of the same thing
and not different from one another at all. Being lead
by a woman is not the same as being led by a man, and
vice versa. It is OK, but it is not the same. If a
group is short of men or women, there is really no
substitute, even though it sounds good on paper. My
opinion. Thank you for your comment. You have a good
sense of humor.
Derik
--- Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck
<paulnkaren@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> > From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
> > Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words
> >
> > Dear Trini:
> >
> > Is it Trini or Sean, Trini and Sean, or Sean or
> Trini or Trini and Sean? How
> > can one comunicate with all the confusion?
> >
> > Derik
>
> (Off topic): As a woman who also shares an email
> address with her husband --
> and receives replies to Paul when I've signed Karen
> -- my advice to Derik is
> to READ who SIGNS the email, not the auto-formatted
> header ("Trini or Sean -
> PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM> wrote:") But of course
> that wasn't Derik's
> (humorous?) point & he does address Trini so I guess
> it wasn't all that
> confusing...
>
> I agree with Trini's posts, and also dislike
> "leader/follower," and (from
> a previous thread), especially dislike being
> referred to as a "follow." I
> don't even consider these to be gender-neutral --
> there's too much history
> of their use in ballroom dance with gender-specific
> connotations. In fact
> that's another good reason to drop them, to further
> differentiate Argentine
> tango from "the ballroom dances."
>
> More importantly, "leader/follower" terminology
> diminishes the concept of
> this dance as a conversation between two people.*
>
> I appreciated Sergio's post placing this discussion
> in context of Argentine
> culture. In our (Jenny DeBouzek & me, as Tango
> Downtown) classes we've used
> the man/woman/marcar terminology fairly consistently
> since our first
> sessions in 2001. In any given class, I dance the
> role needed to balance
> partners (as do our students), and will say "I'm the
> man" when dancing that
> role. Any initial resistance we met wasn't from
> those seeking gender-neutral
> terms, but from those who felt this usage implied a
> claim to superiority
> based on "authenticity." ;-)
>
> For most of us on this list, Argentine tango is
> appropriated culture,
> however much modified, transformed, or influenced by
> our own or other
> contributions. I prefer using the "roots"
> role-designations, while
> recognizing that most English-speaking Argentine
> instructors touring the US
> have long-adopted leader/follower vocabulary. How
> many times have you heard
> "hombres/mujeres" or "barones/chicas" translated as
> "leaders/followers" in
> your workshop classes?
>
> We have a growing group of women in NM who dance or
> are practicing to dance
> both roles. It's fun, challenging, interesting --
> and yes, different, per
> gender/role exchanges. For the record, most of these
> women say, "I'm
> practicing to lead/the lead," while I'll say "I'm
> practicing the man's
> part." It's not something we argue; we just dance &
> enjoy.
>
> Karen Reck
> Albuquerque, NM
>
> * "... we do not use the terminology of 'lead and
> follow,' instead
> describing the dance as one in which the man invites
> the woman to create a
> particular movement and the woman responds to that
> invitation. Rather than a
> hierarchy of roles, we create a conversation between
> two equals." -- Jenny
> DeBouzek, Tango Downtown
>
>
=====
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
https://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:44:57 -0700
From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Rephrasing of words (gender politics)
> Derik Rawson writes:
> ...Why the heck do American women, in particular, want to try
> be "little men" all the time.
In my case, I am 5'2" & have no choice, not "all the time," but certainly
when I'm dancing the man's role. (And now that you mention it, few women of
my acquaintance who are "the man" in their daily lives are "little"...)
> To me it is boring. I think that maybe they should relax and enjoy the dance
> and learn how to communicate, instead of attempt to control others.
I haven't met any women (American otherwise) who dance the man's role to
"attempt to control others." Happily, I've met only a very few men who do
this.
> ...Being lead by a woman is not the same as being led by a man, and vice
> versa. It is OK, but it is not the same. If a group is short of men or
> women, there is really no substitute, even though it sounds good on paper.
In our classes, most women are there to dance with men & vice versa. Some
(more experienced) women attend knowing that they will probably have a
chance to work on the man's role; some (more experienced) men know they may
have a chance to try on the women's role. Most people are good sports and
are willing to dance w/ with others of their own gender as needed. They
often discover interesting things when doing this:
<> The lightest man is (in general) heavier than the heaviest woman.
<> Men: It can be fun to close your eyes while dancing.
<> Women: Remembering not to close your eyes while dancing the man's role is
important.
<> It's only a 3-minute affair (gay or straight); afterwards you thank your
partner & move on.
More seriously, those of us who are working on dancing both roles have lots
of reasons; wanting to control others isn't one of them. Nor is offending
the patrons of a traditional milonga by cross-dancing.
You're right, it's not the same. But I see that as interesting, rather than
deficient. There's a spark with any simpatico partner -- not the same spark,
but a spark none the less.
Karen Reck
Albuquerque, New Mexico
