1021 Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:47:29 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
Hi leads,
I have some questions concerning sacadas in salon style. When my
predominant style of tango was salon, I was always taught that
sacadas should be done with the man's foot next to the woman's
trailing leg. This seems to be the case with forward and side steps.
I've recently learned sacadas in milonguero style done with the man's
foot equi-distant between the woman's two legs. This actually feels
more comfortable for me since I don't feel that I'm getting hit (I'm
a follow). That same technique works well for salon style also.
This in-between sacada jives with what I've learned for back sacadas.
I'm also aware that sacadas could be done to displace weight (such
as the 3-point turn) or not.
One of my students who took a private with a salon instructor was
told that the sacada should always be done against the trailing leg.
So,
1. Is this just one of those personal preference/style things?
2. If not, is there a particular reason for it?
3. Does it differ by what step she's taking, so that all sacadas are
not created equal?
4. If yes to #3, what would then be a good definition of sacada that
I could explain to my students?
Also, I've described a sacada as a switching of weight between lead &
follow, whereas a displacement (such as off of the cross walk or the
cadena) doesn't have the same "whoosh" quality that one gets with a
sacada. Is this accurate?
Thanks from a confused teacher,
Trina
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.patangos.org/
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:43:40 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
In salon & nuevo styles,strides are longer and sacadas are generally
done close to the trailing foot...the idea is you need to occupy the
position of the followers axis. Her axis was until a moment before,
over her foot; so to put yourself there, you need to sacar or take
away her foot.
This is a visual trick as well as physical reality.
Milonguero has shorter footsteps, so putting your foot in between her
legs is approximately the same as putting it against her foot. That
is part of the answer.
But the main thing is that you are still trying to occupy the space
where her body just was. Sometimes that means taking away the foot,
sometimes it means rotating around her axis, sometimes she rotates
around your axis, sometimes you both rotate in balance.
In Milonguero, where your foot goes is about placing it under your
shared axis, as a CONSEQUENCE of the intended movement, not the CAUSE
of the movement.
In the end I don't think the concepts are so different as you would
think between Salon/nuevo and Milonguero/Close-embrace.
Single Axis Turns and Colgadas:
Trying to occupy the SAME space as your partner is currently a
popular field of discovery, with Single Axis Turns and Colgadas, or
"Hangers", which are single axis turns where you lean back away from
your partner.
>Also, I've described a sacada as a switching of weight between lead &
>follow, whereas a displacement (such as off of the cross walk or the
>cadena) doesn't have the same "whoosh" quality that one gets with a
>sacada. Is this accurate?
I think many steps when done with confidence and groundedness have
this whoosh quality. Sacadas, displacements and even normal steps all
feel more powerful when driven deep into the earth.
A sacada does have this passing of energy into the follower, an
exchange of momentum, as the leader takes over her space. This is
especially true if there is pivoting or rotational movement occurring.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:00:39 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
Hi Trini:
I don't dance salon, if by salon you mean open position.
But the answer should be the same if open or close embrace.
I was taught that my foot I'm stepping with should be
near the woman's trailing foot. The trailing foot which has
no weight on it. There shouldn't be any concern of
tripping because the woman is pivoting on the foot
she is stepping, swinging the trailing foot around the man's foot.
At the beginning, the man and the woman aren't facing
the same direction. The woman is ready to do a molinete,
let's say to the man's right. For argument's sake,
let's say her first step is a forward step. My first step
is also a forward step. My left is pointed straight ahead,
which is slightly forward of her trailing foot. To step in
the middle would require me NOT to step straight forward
but diagonally forward, destroying my axis.
I don't understand your definition of "Also, I've described
a sacada as a switching of weight between lead & follow."
I don't understand how leader and follower are switching
the weight between each other. Both leader and follower
are switching weight as they step with each foot.
Now, the leader has to skip a sacada for the side step
after the back step otherwise he will trip the woman. This
has nothing to do with the placement of the foot, whether it be
near the trailing foot or in the middle. The trailing foot
crosses the man's path he would take for a sacada.
Hope this helps. If not, Washington is only a four hour car ride.
Abrazos,
Michael
Looking forward to going to NY for the holiday weekend
I'll give Mother Nature a gancho if it snows
Hope this makes sense.
---------- Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM> writes:
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:40:11 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
As Tom has stated the emphasis in a sacada is taking the leader
establishing his position in the position the follower is vacating. In
salon (which does not necessarily have an open embrace but does have
separate axes), this means stepping just inside the follower's trailing
foot. As in milonguero, the foot placement is a consequence of the body
movement rather than the reverse.
The leader's foot placement close to the follower's foot can sometimes
cause a certain awkward problem in that the follower's foot can ride over
the top of the leader's foot. Some instructors recommend resolving this
problem by having the follower point her toe and trace the ground around
the leader's foot. Sometimes followers feel like they are being kicked
out of the way by the leader establishing the foot. Personally, I think
both of these problems are better resolved if the leader thinks of the
sacada as an assertive but gentle body movement rather than a foot
placement.
With best wishes,
Steve
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:15:25 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
Steve wrote:
>>>
Personally, I think both of these problems are better resolved if the leader
thinks of the
sacada as an assertive but gentle body movement rather than a foot
placement.
<<<
Steve's comment makes the great point that how we visualize what is
happening may be key to understanding the problems many people have with
sacadas, including where the leader's foot ends up. (For the sake of
discussion, let's say that each partner is maintaining his/her own separate
axis, which may have them in either open-embrace or many forms of
close-embrace.)
I was confused for a long time in visualizing the sacadas as a "step" in
which I put my "foot" between my partner's legs...where do I step, how hard,
how fast, etc.
Sacadas changed completely for me when I learned to visualize sacadas (ALL
sacadas) as being done with "my body" (i.e., my center) instead of "my foot"
or "my leg" or "my ankle". Imagining that I was moving primarily with my
body (and, of course, the foot needed to stand upright over my center's new
location) also helped me realize somewhat later that, by leading with my
axis this way, I produced a torque on my follower's axis as our frame
rotated around her new axis. This torque in her spine, released as she
unwinds around her new axis, will often naturally and easily rotate her hips
and twist her leg and foot away from my entering foot without giving her the
sensation of "slamming" her foot to get it out of the way, or having her
foot ride up over mine.
Of course, to a casual observer it still "looks" as if I'm slamming her
foot. This makes sacadas harder to teach as well, because so many people
start with the image of slamming their partner's foot, so they "lead" with
their foot...always a problem. Once student leaders switch to thinking "go
with the body", this problem clears up pretty well (for which their partners
are often VERY grateful!).
Having said all that, let's talk about "where the feet go..."
The following rules of thumb derive from input gratefully received from
Julio & Corina, Gustavo Naveira and Luciana Valle: yes, the leader's foot
does end up near the follower's trailing foot in a well-executed sacada,
regardless of whether the sacada is of an open/side step or of a front- or
back-crossing step, because of the distance required for the axes to pass
each other. If the leader's foot-and-axis are in-between her feet,
depending on the timing he'll either do what's needed (a strong
axis-rotation lead) to produce an "inside boleo/gancho", or he'll knock her
down!. If his foot-and-axis are near her leading foot, he's going for a
single-axis turn or colgada.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:06:42 +0000
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> writes:
[...]
> Sacadas changed completely for me when I learned to visualize
> sacadas (ALL sacadas) as being done with "my body" (i.e., my center)
> instead of "my foot" or "my leg" or "my ankle". Imagining that I
> was moving primarily with my body (and, of course, the foot needed
> to stand upright over my center's new location) also helped me
> realize somewhat later that, by leading with my axis this way, I
> produced a torque on my follower's axis as our frame rotated around
> her new axis. This torque in her spine, released as she unwinds
> around her new axis, will often naturally and easily rotate her hips
> and twist her leg and foot away from my entering foot without giving
> her the sensation of "slamming" her foot to get it out of the way,
> or having her foot ride up over mine.
That's a good description, I think. I'm slightly confused about the
"foot" aspect---most sacadas I've seen demonstrated are more at the
thigh level. So nobody could possibly think that her foot is being
knocked away, but they might think that the leg is being knocked away
at the thigh level (even though there may well be no leg contact at
all, of course).
Going back to the original article, if the follower feels she's being
hit, then something's wrong!
[...]
PS
A move I've been annoying followers with recently is this: step to
your right, and then step backwards (leading your partner to step to
her left, and then forwards in line with you with her right foot).
Quite a lot of the time, your partner will step to the left, and then
(unled) change weight and step forwards with her left foot outside
your right leg. At that point you can step forwards with your right
foot and carefully (carefully since her weight is on her left leg, so
you need to be careful not to apply any pressure until her weight has
moved fully back to her right foot) give a really nice sacada.
So it's a double surprise---your partner is probably feeling
disconcerted because *something* odd happened (even if she's not quite
sure what), and there's a nice sacada.
(This can be led correctly in a number of ways, of course.)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:28:32 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
I've always considered the follwer's foot "riding over the top" of my foot
as a delightfully affectionate caress rather than an awkwardness.
J
----Original Message Follows----
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Reply-To: Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Sacadas: In-Between or near trailing leg?
